Rejected Restrict access to the setodds command during battle

[Wigglytuff]

The setodds command was recently (? Not sure, not a rands auth myself) introduced as a means of assisting Randbats Room Auth in crafting and testing sets. Since I don't have access to the command myself, I don't know exactly what the extents to its capabilities are. However, it appears that, at the bare minimum, the command is capable of finding the relative odds of a move or ability appearing on a mon. Because hundreds or thousands of sets are generated to achieve this, it would be logistically unfeasible to allow everyone to use this command, so its use is restricted to only Randbats Room Staff (% or higher) and possibly Global Staff.

Competitive Concerns
While I have no doubt that this makes things much easier for Randbats Auth, it unfortunately constitutes a competitive advantage that is only accessible by a handful of people. The most clear cut example (but not the only) I can think of is in Gen 4 Randbats. Life Orb recoil doesn't proc when hitting a Substitute, so you cannot scout this way as you can in later generations. There is often a 50/50 associated with this - does the opponent have Life Orb or Choice Band/Specs? The setodds command gives the differential odds of either. I'm also told that the command could, given two revealed moves, find the odds of a particular item or ability. If true, this is a massive advantage to have.

With the proliferation of the Randbats Circuit, I don't think I need to go too in depth about the competitive concerns of the setodds command. I'm not the only one with these concerns, I know xGang ( gen3 RBTT sheetgod and first overall draft oml...) doesn't it like either. I obviously don't like it, and I was a playoffs qualifier for the Rands Slam Circuit and 2nd place of the Randbats Classic Open last year. I'm sure if more competitors were aware of the command, they wouldn't be happy either.

Unofficial Randbats Auth Response
I conversed with Rands Auth a couple months ago about my concerns with the command. Their (disclaimer: unofficial) opinion was and is that the setodds command doesn't provide much of an advantage and is only really used for set crafting. I happen to disagree, especially if what I'm told about the higher end of its capabilities is true, but it shouldn't matter either way - an advantage exists, and a solution should be implemented. Luckily, I have what I think is a pretty simple solution.


My proposal: Disallow use of the setodds command while in battle.

The command's express purpose is to help the Randbats Auth with setcrafting. Implementing this would ensure that that is all the setodds command is used for.

I understand that this could be annoying in the situation of Auth that are laddering other formats and are unnecessarily locked out of the command. A possible compromise could be to allow the command to be only broadcasted in the Randbats Room by auth that are currently players in a battle. However, I am uncomfortable with the untraceable competitive advantages currently present and would like to see a technical solution implemented for this.

 

[Hecate]

I don't see the need. The command is heavily restricted and more importantly based on public info - anyone could write code to do this themselves. In fact, the command's code is public as well.

 

[Aeonic]

To be frank, this is an issue created out of nothing. This has not been an issue and there's no reason for me to believe that it will be. We can have it log upperstaff room if there's substantiated concern about abuse in tours, but for now I'm closing this.

 

[Annika]

Hi, I created /setodds.

While I have no doubt that this makes things much easier for Randbats Auth, it unfortunately constitutes a competitive advantage that is only accessible by a handful of people.

/setodds only uses information on the set generation procedures and moves, not battle RNG. This information is publicly available; anyone with an Internet connection can access it, to the point of running their own copy of PS on the computer and using /setodds. The reason the command is restricted to Random Battles staff and global staff is not because it utilizes privileged information, but because the simulations it runs can be computationally intensive: if many users used the command at the same time, it could cause lag. If /setodds constitutes a "massive advantage" to tournament players, I would encourage those players or those in their community to set up their own server to use /setodds on, or even implement similar functionality in a browser extension or desktop app!

My proposal: Disallow use of the setodds command while in battle.

The command's express purpose is to help the Randbats Auth with setcrafting. Implementing this would ensure that that is all the setodds command is used for.

Not only does this not make sense as a policy, it's difficult to enforce. If a player plays on an alt, they could potentially use the command on their staff account. Also, as described above, if this functionality is useful for its competitive advantage, it could easily be accessed outside of the main PS! server.

However, I am uncomfortable with the untraceable competitive advantages currently present and would like to see a technical solution implemented for this.

I feel that I have refuted the sentiment that /setodds includes privileged information; is the information being more easily accessible to Random Battles and global staff than others the issue? If so, we can perhaps find common ground. The 'technical solution' you propose would not remove the advantage entirely, and would add unnecessary technological complexity and annoyance to Random Battles staff.

We can have it log upperstaff room if there's substantiated concern about abuse in tours, but for now I'm closing this.

The command doesn't provide anything that can't be found by installing a PS server locally; I think labelling its use as abuse is a bit strange. I understand concerns about asymmetric access to information, though.

 

[Wigglytuff]

Thanks for the response Annika.

If /setodds constitutes a "massive advantage" to tournament players

I'm not sure if you (and others in the thread) are disputing whether this is a significant advantage or not so I would like to reiterate just in case that I think it is, and I'm positive I'm not the only one. I can gather the opinions of other rands tournaments players if that will make a difference one way or another; please disregard this if not.

I would encourage those players or those in their community to set up their own server to use /setodds on, or even implement similar functionality in a browser extension or desktop app!

This information is publicly available; anyone with an Internet connection can access it, to the point of running their own copy of PS on the computer and using /setodds.

While I understand that it's technically possible for everyone to have access to the same information as is provided by /setodds, it's still an issue of accessibility, if not one as black and white as one group having access and the other not having any. It's unfair to require players to have the technical requirements to set up a server to compete at the same level as players with access to the command who don't have to do those things. I took a cursory glance at the server setup readme and it's not terribly technical, but consider the situation of a younger player who is on an parentally controlled/admin locked computer and can't install Github or the packages necessary for Showdown, or perhaps a college student on a loaner computer with similar restrictions. Or players that play on their phone for whatever godforsaken reason. These scenarios may sound pedantic, but I am illustrating that there are legitimate barriers to entry with simply advising that everyone sets up a server if they want to have the same advantages as other people. These issues shouldn't be brushed aside if there is a solution, especially a relatively easy and simple one, which leads to my next point.

Not only does this not make sense as a policy, it's difficult to enforce. If a player plays on an alt, they could potentially use the command on their staff account

In the sense that my proposal is meant to restrict the usage of the command to its express purpose (setcrafting, not providing competitive advantage), I think it achieves that.

Is it difficult to enforce in the coding sense? I'm not a programmer so apologies if I'm understanding something wrong, but you can't change your nickname midbattle (without pressing another button and losing the battle, anyway) so I assumed there was a way to disallow the function of certain commands while in battle.

If you mean purely in the enforcement, I agree that it's not a perfect solution - none exists. However, I think it's a pretty good one to the extent that anything can be done. The issue of a player playing on an alt is easily sidestepped by asking any people with access (which is a fairly identifiable and small list) to play on their auth'd account, which is an extremely reasonable request. Other methods of bypassing (such as asking your auth'd friend to run the command for you midbattle) are already disallowed by tournament ghosting rules, so I'd imagine anyone caught for this would be appropriately punished.

To be frank, this is an issue created out of nothing.

I would like to reiterate that this isn't "nothing." I'd be happy to gather and provide opinions from other recent Rands tours players if you don't find my assessment of the relative advantages of the setodds commands accurate.

 

[DaWoblefet]

If this is a concern for tournament matches, then it seems to me one solution could be to also just play matches on smogtours, and disable the setodds command there on smogtours.

I imagine the problem fundamentally is that the setodds command is useful to use while in battle for the randbats team for testing purposes. Explicitly disabling the command mid-battle would defeat the point of the command.

 

[Wigglytuff]

If this is a concern for tournament matches, then it seems to me one solution could be to also just play matches on smogtours, and disable the setodds command there on smogtours.

There's nothing stopping players with access from simultaneously logging onto main and using the command there.

I imagine the problem fundamentally is that the setodds command is useful to use while in battle for the randbats team for testing purposes. Explicitly disabling the command mid-battle would defeat the point of the command.

I haven't gotten the impression that this is how the command is used from speaking with several members of the Randbats team. Regardless, there are workarounds - asking an auth'd friend to run it, waiting until after the battle, or even allowing the setodds command to only be broadcasted during a battle so that both sides can publicly view what is being looked up in the situation of a tournament series.

 

[Hecate]

Here, I set something up to make this easily available to everyone. https://randbats.miapi.dev
Closing this since that seems to solve the problems mentioned.

 

[Annika]

While I understand that it's technically possible for everyone to have access to the same information as is provided by /setodds, it's still an issue of accessibility, if not one as black and white as one group having access and the other not having any. It's unfair to require players to have the technical requirements to set up a server to compete at the same level as players with access to the command who don't have to do those things. I took a cursory glance at the server setup readme and it's not terribly technical, but consider the situation of a younger player who is on an parentally controlled/admin locked computer and can't install Github or the packages necessary for Showdown, or perhaps a college student on a loaner computer with similar restrictions. Or players that play on their phone for whatever godforsaken reason. These scenarios may sound pedantic, but I am illustrating that there are legitimate barriers to entry with simply advising that everyone sets up a server if they want to have the same advantages as other people. These issues shouldn't be brushed aside if there is a solution, especially a relatively easy and simple one, which leads to my next point.

Yes, I understand why you'd feel this is an imbalance. However, I think setting up your own tournament server that allows everyone to use /setodds or using a website like the one Mia made would address the imbalance without causing issues for the Random Battles team. Is this the case? If not, we can look into further solutions (likely outside of this thread, sadly).

Is it difficult to enforce in the coding sense? I'm not a programmer so apologies if I'm understanding something wrong, but you can't change your nickname midbattle (without pressing another button and losing the battle, anyway) so I assumed there was a way to disallow the function of certain commands while in battle.

If you mean purely in the enforcement, I agree that it's not a perfect solution - none exists. However, I think it's a pretty good one to the extent that anything can be done. The issue of a player playing on an alt is easily sidestepped by asking any people with access (which is a fairly identifiable and small list) to play on their auth'd account, which is an extremely reasonable request. Other methods of bypassing (such as asking your auth'd friend to run the command for you midbattle) are already disallowed by tournament ghosting rules, so I'd imagine anyone caught for this would be appropriately punished.


I would like to reiterate that this isn't "nothing." I'd be happy to gather and provide opinions from other recent Rands tours players if you don't find my assessment of the relative advantages of the setodds commands accurate.

It would be possible to restrict it, but tech-savvy users could find ways around it (since the information is public)—we'd run into the same issue you raised about not expecting tournament players to know how to set up a server; I don't think trading in a randbats-staff and technical users vs. everyone else asymmetry for a technical users vs. everyone else is worth it, especially considering the additional inconveniences incurred on randbats staff. You mention that alts and so forth can be tracked and made tournament infractions, but a user who is able to run their own copy of PS (something that's made quite easy—I'd estimate at least 20% of your playerbase could do so, if not over 50%) could run the command without any way to detect it.

If this is a concern for tournament matches, then it seems to me one solution could be to also just play matches on smogtours, and disable the setodds command there on smogtours.

I imagine the problem fundamentally is that the setodds command is useful to use while in battle for the randbats team for testing purposes. Explicitly disabling the command mid-battle would defeat the point of the command.

Personally, I'm fine with this; Smogtours sets their own policies and I don't involve myself in it. I don't know if it solves the issues raised by the tours community, though.