Plague von Karma
Banned deucer.
YesIs Counter affected by accuracy? I.e. if accuracy is reduced can Counter miss?
YesIs Counter affected by accuracy? I.e. if accuracy is reduced can Counter miss?
Short answer: sending Sing Chansey on the T1 twave is extremely powerful, granting you easy sleep as Chansey can shrug off multiple Psychics from Alakazam/Starmie and then block the opponent's sleep move with easeI dont know if this is the right place to ask about meta developments, but as someone who only knows about rby ou in passing and reading through the VR posts, I noticed that the old "trade turn 1 twave" fell out of favor. My question is what caused this shift?
There isn't much of a reason, the move is unfortunately low value compared to what other moves the pokemon that get it have. Also pokemon can just switch out if they get defence dropped and otherwise it does little to no damage.Is there much of a reason to use Acid? Everything that gets it also gets Wrap (except Vileplume), which can theoretically help them break through them more easily or (if my understanding is correct) reapply a speed drop. 60 power after STAB is really weak though, and a lot of things that get Acid and Wrap also get Swords Dance, and Poison is a pretty piss offense typing. It seems like it would be an interesting move, and it has some good qualities, but it doesn't seem like it'd get a whole lot done. Maybe you could stack it with Swords Dance for the boosted power for its damage and after Defense drops?
In terms of Poison-types that actually get acid, for the most part, you are correct in that after STAB, it becomes a 60 BP move. What makes Acid so awful is how it is weaker to even non STAB moves in neutral settings, like Earthquake, Hyper Beam, and even Body Slam, which have 100, 120, and 80 BP respectively. Arbok is perhaps the most notable user of the move (and it doesn’t even run Acid in the first place, opting for Glare + Wrap + Earthquake + Body Slam), but the fact that it only possibly 5HKOes Mime showcases its pitiful damage output:Is there much of a reason to use Acid? Everything that gets it also gets Wrap (except Vileplume), which can theoretically help them break through them more easily or (if my understanding is correct) reapply a speed drop. 60 power after STAB is really weak though, and a lot of things that get Acid and Wrap also get Swords Dance, and Poison is a pretty piss offense typing. It seems like it would be an interesting move, and it has some good qualities, but it doesn't seem like it'd get a whole lot done. Maybe you could stack it with Swords Dance for the boosted power for its damage and after Defense drops?
I think you're neglecting to mention that Acid becomes stronger the more you spam it, it has a 33% Defense drop chance (which is the same chance as a Psychic special drop iirc) which is probably more a selling poing than any other part of the move. Acid's effect, in theory:nothing relating to the defense drop mechanic of acid
A few things actually have Leer and Tail Whip suggested on their Smogdex entries as odd options (Most notably Rhydon)Acid is not underexplored, the niche you're describing is basically 10% damage + 33% of the time you get a bonus Leer tacked on. Leer is not a good move, and the damage is negligible on basically everything. There are a lot of moves that look cute but just kinda suck, this is one of them
My name is in the credits of that Rhydon analysis, I know, it still doesn't mean Acid is in any shape or form viable in any non-OM RBY tierA few things actually have Leer and Tail Whip suggested on their Smogdex entries as odd options (Most notably Rhydon)
EDIT: Replaced Jolteon with Rhydon
The closest Acid gets to viable is on Arbok in OU. When playing Dragonite + Victreebel + Arbok teams in the past, I would often find my Arbok needing to KO Exeggutor. Earthquake is resisted, Rock Slide is weak, and Hyper Beam can be predicted and exploited, so I started using Acid as a higher damage attack to finish off Exeggutor without Hyper Beam's punishable recharge turn. However, Acid is still a niche move on a very niche Pokemon (at best) in OU, and there hasn't even been any theoretical viable niches in other tiers to my knowledge.Is there much of a reason to use Acid? Everything that gets it also gets Wrap (except Vileplume), which can theoretically help them break through them more easily or (if my understanding is correct) reapply a speed drop. 60 power after STAB is really weak though, and a lot of things that get Acid and Wrap also get Swords Dance, and Poison is a pretty piss offense typing. It seems like it would be an interesting move, and it has some good qualities, but it doesn't seem like it'd get a whole lot done. Maybe you could stack it with Swords Dance for the boosted power for its damage and after Defense drops?
Honestly even if they weren't uncompetitive OHKO moves are just disgustingly strong. Snorlax is easily tanky enough to use multiple Fissures and just kinda fuckin kill things it has no business killing, Lapras same thing but with Horn Drill. 30% accuracy might seem low but it's a lot when the reward is a whole kill.Why are 1hkos banned in gen 1?
Considering the limitations of 1hkos (speed requirement, type immunities, 30% accuracy w/no way to improve it), the fact that "RNG" is an already undeniable factor in the format (FRZ, special drops, body slam paras, and over 20% crits being common), and no original ban by Nintendo in their official Nintendo cup tournaments. Why are these moves banned now?
it seems like it might be because they were abusable in other gens before the battle sims were made and when the sims were made a kind of blanket ruleset was applied to every gen.
I've been asking myself this recently, and haven't thought of any solid justification yet, so I thought I would bring it up here to see what other people thought or had to say.
if you think I make a good point help me out, like the post, sign my petition (only joking), thanks!
emma edit - moved to SQSA
I don't think people want to deal with 10% freeze chance, which can practically determine the outcome of a game, but it isn't banned. What's the criteria for determining if something is "uncompetitive"?Deemed uncompetitive, and no, rng being part of the game does not mean we have to allow everything. 30% to OHKO even with speed/type requirements is bullshit few people want to deal with.
Has anyone actually played a few games with OHKO moves? Maybe they only need to be banned on specific pokemon? I'm curious as to how they would change the game, I'm sure the meta could adapt to accommodate OHKO moves.Honestly even if they weren't uncompetitive OHKO moves are just disgustingly strong. Snorlax is easily tanky enough to use multiple Fissures and just kinda fuckin kill things it has no business killing, Lapras same thing but with Horn Drill. 30% accuracy might seem low but it's a lot when the reward is a whole kill.
Then why is it in the sim? Counter and other moves have been modded, I don't think changing the freeze mechanic would be too different. But I know that's a whole different conversation.Have you considered there is no way to ban freezes without either egregious mods or banning one of the most important coverage moves? Freeze clause shouldn't be in the simulator either for the record.
Something subjective (like what constitutes as 'uncompetitive' and which moves should be modded) isn't a fact at all. It's determined by consensus, and consensus can change.we cant ban freeze or 1/256 miss.
How many times do we have to repeat this fact ?
You can do this by challenging another Showdown user to a [Gen 1] Custom Game.I'd like to play a few games with OHKO moves enabled, is there a way to do that?
well thanks for the comment, I didn't know if anyone would even reply, but that seems like a bit of a brush off to me. I'm not just saying that rng exist so 1hkos are acceptable, I'm kind of trying to point out that rng is part of competitive strategy in gen, and I guess I don't understand why 1hkos seem to be an exception.Deemed uncompetitive, and no, rng being part of the game does not mean we have to allow everything. 30% to OHKO even with speed/type requirements is bullshit few people want to deal with.
"not-that-broken" sounds like a supporter to me welcome to the team lolHonestly even if they weren't uncompetitive OHKO moves are just disgustingly strong. Snorlax is easily tanky enough to use multiple Fissures and just kinda fuckin kill things it has no business killing, Lapras same thing but with Horn Drill. 30% accuracy might seem low but it's a lot when the reward is a whole kill.
E: I've been informed they only work on slower pokemon so they are actually not -that- broken in RBY it seems. Definitely broken in future gens and I guess the ban was just made uniform with RBY
Let's take a look at the Tiering Policy Framework.Why are 1hkos banned in gen 1?
Considering the limitations of 1hkos (speed requirement, type immunities, 30% accuracy w/no way to improve it), the fact that "RNG" is an already undeniable factor in the format (FRZ, special drops, body slam paras, and over 20% crits being common), and no original ban by Nintendo in their official Nintendo cup tournaments. Why are these moves banned now?
it seems like it might be because they were abusable in other gens before the battle sims were made and when the sims were made a kind of blanket ruleset was applied to every gen.
I've been asking myself this recently, and haven't thought of any solid justification yet, so I thought I would bring it up here to see what other people thought or had to say.
if you think I make a good point help me out, like the post, sign my petition (only joking), thanks!
emma edit - moved to SQSA
This is the Simple Questions Simple Answers thread. The simple question has been answered. There is no need to discuss further in this thread; please do not continue a useless discussion.Tiering Policy Framework said:Probability management is a part of the game.
- This means we have to accept that moves have secondary effects, that moves can miss, that moves can critical hit, and that managing all these potential probability points is a part of skill.
- This does NOT mean that we will accept every probability factor introduced to the game. Evasion, OHKO moves, and Moody all affected the outcome "too much", and we removed them.
- "Too much" is if a particular factor has the more skilled player at a disadvantage a considerable amount of the time against a less skilled player, regardless of what they do.
hey, I think that's a good idea, a 1 1hko clause, sounds nice too.Nah it's not subjective.
If we ban freeze or 1/256 we just dont play rby at all and there Is no way to mod that.
Also , freeze isnt uncompetitive and isnt as strong as ohko mooves. Even if you make an ohko clause ( like only one ohko sucesful in a match ) it would be pretty stupid.
Rby is pretty balanced atm and just ban or add something would break the stability we all know.
1/256 misses are as uncompetitive as regular miss.
Yes, unparalyzed Snorlax could hit paralyzed Chansey with Fissure. OHKO moves are based on the current Speed of both Pokemon. Which means any Pokemon with Agility and a OHKO move (such as Rapidash, Dragonite or Seaking) can hit with their OHKO moves after boosting and becoming faster than any Pokemon in RBY.Do OHKO moves operate off of base speed or total speed? Like if a Snorlax clicks fissure on a paralyzed Chansey, would it work?