OU CCAT - Round 7 - Revision

[vyomov]

This is my suggestion:

Jellicent@Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP/36 Def/220 SpD
Calm Nature
- Scald
- Recover
- Will'o'wisp
- Ice Beam

Specially defensive Jellicent is a great partner for Landorus-T, as it shrugs off the Water and Ice type attacks it's weak to and can retaliate
with Scald + Ice Beam. It can also help deal with rain teams and helps make a good core.
Any feedback is as always welcome!

 

[X5Dragon]

As Landrus has been chosen, we are gonna have to start looking at a couple of things, removing physical walls, dealing with rain teams and the lesser important part of support/hazards so he get's his precious KOs. A number of good suggestions have been made such as Jellicent and Rotom-W. But as they are defensive choices I'd like to (re)offer an offensive one:

Kingdra @ Life Orb
Trait: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 HP / 252 Spd
Modest Nature

- Rain Dance
- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Pulse
- Surf


Alright so let me this time focus on what the blue weed does to help Landrus. First of all, it resists x4 Water, always a good thing when facing rain teams. It also acts as a special attacking counterpart, adding more balance to the team. Physical walls are dealt very well: Donaphan, other Landrus, Forretress and Hippodons, Ice Sharders and faster pokemon with HP ice are no longer a concern, and the added bonus of running rampant through rain team. Of course, the fun doesn't stop here. You can change weathers against Sun Teams and avoid dealing with cloro altoghether, and the occasional hail too. Being the fastest Dragon in the land means that you don't have to be afraid of of scarfers of all shapes and kinds.

Of course, there's remains the prickly issue of Ferrothorn, which walls both pokemon now, but then you still 4 slots and a shiny new Magnezone at the drive way.

 

[HUARGH]

Rotom-W has already been suggested, but my Rotom-W is grossly different from the one posted earlier.

Rotom-Wash @ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 100 SDef / 128 Spd / 32 SAtk
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Volt Switch
- Will-O-Wisp
- Signal Beam

Specially defensive Rotom-W. Landorus-T's great physical bulk and intimidate will usually lure out special attackers. Rotom-W is a great partner because:

1. Rotom-W is a good pokemon (many people seem to skip this when suggesting pokemon)
2. Rotom-W has volt switch, complimenting Landorus-T's u-turn
3. Rotom-W, or at least this one, is specially defense and resists ice to which Landorus-T is x4 weak and resists water, to which Landorus-T is x2 weak

Signal Beam nails Celebi, who doesn't care about the typical Rotom-W sets (as it has natural cure/recover for WoW and resists both of Rotom-W's STABs). Additionally, Rotom-W has levitate, giving us another pokemon immune to ground which means we can focus on other things. 28 SAtk EVs are necessary to OHKO max HP Gliscor, but I have given it 4 more in case the Gliscor doesn't speedcreep.

 

[Shurtugal]

So I guess I'm going to comment on some of the suggestions:

1. MikeDawg's Mamoswine: HP Fire does indeed give you a good lure, but having the same typing (ground / ground) isn't really something I want to do. With Keldeo, Starmie, Rotom-W, and Rain Teams running a good portion of the metagame, I feel we'd be hard pressed against them. Granted, you could fix this in later building, but that could be said about any of our submissions this early in the submission process. I feel like we should use a partner that can defeat most of Lando's counters, not a certain portion.

I don't see the need to lure out Ferrothorn when setting up on it with Landorus-T is super easy once you pull off an Intimidate. Granted, luring out Skarmory is pretty nice, but I'm sure other Pokemon could do this better. Keep in mind the Mamoswine adds a Rotom-W weakness, Starmie weakness, Keldeo weakness, and rain weakness that Landorus-T already has issues facing.

2. Halcon of Light's Offensive Heatran: Beating Skarmory is nice, but it opens up issues for Starmie and Keldeo. However, the Magma Storm trapper would be a pretty neat idea for a weatherless team that could lure out and kill rain teams early.

I'll comment more on this submission after you edit your OP.

3. Nysyr's Rotom-W: Rotom-W is a pretty good choice: it checks Keldeo, Starmie, Hippo, Skarm, and rain teams in general. The submission itself is pretty solid, if not standard as well.

Keep in mind that Rotom-W and Landorus-T have issues taking down KyuB, as well as having issues facing sun teams. I don't bring these up to bring down the submission; rather, to open eyes so that if we go with Wash other submission will be geared towards fixing these issues.

Also, lastly, Rotom-W and LandoT have problems with LAti@s as well.

4. Trainer Au's SubDiable Gengar: If I was going to submit a Gengar set, I'd use the EB Gengar with Icy wind and Thunder(bolt) to lure out and kill LandoT and Skarm, but in all honesty Gengar isn't a good rain fighter (or Starmie / Rotom-W fighter) and as such I wouldn't vote on him just yet.

5. Hot N Cold's Mixed Jirachi: This is a fantastic submission. By all means, it does everything you said: lures out Landorus-T's counters. The only thing I worry about is LO Analytical Starmie, and Rain Keldeo, but I'm sure this would pair greatly with something like Rotom-W which could sponge all of Starmie's hits and check Keldeo.

6. Jellicent: This by all means isn't bad, as it does beat all of LandoT's counters, but it makes the team geared defensively or balanced and I feel like Landorus-T could thrive on a more offensive route.

7. Signal Beam Rotom-W.

I don't see the point of luring in Celebi when Landorus-T boasts the possible U-turn and will usually force Celebi out, thus earning a free turn of set up.


I'm pretty biased towards Jirachi / Rotom-W submission atm. They are the most solid submissions thus far.

 

[MikeDawg]

1. MikeDawg's Mamoswine: HP Fire does indeed give you a good lure, but having the same typing (ground / ground) isn't really something I want to do. With Keldeo, Starmie, Rotom-W, and Rain Teams running a good portion of the metagame, I feel we'd be hard pressed against them. Granted, you could fix this in later building, but that could be said about any of our submissions this early in the submission process. I feel like we should use a partner that can defeat most of Lando's counters, not a certain portion.

I don't see the need to lure out Ferrothorn when setting up on it with Landorus-T is super easy once you pull off an Intimidate. Granted, luring out Skarmory is pretty nice, but I'm sure other Pokemon could do this better. Keep in mind the Mamoswine adds a Rotom-W weakness, Starmie weakness, Keldeo weakness, and rain weakness that Landorus-T already has issues facing.

I really don't think typing is as big of a deal as people believe it to be. If we are facing a keldeo, weak, neutral, or resistant, it is quite likely that we will get kod.

And, as mentioned, since lando as a pokemon is quite offensive, I believe that offensive synergy at this point is far more important than defensive; hit before we get hit.

And I don't think lando is as helpless against those rain threats as you think. Especially if mamo is able to weaken the aforementioned pokes, lando is much more comfortable just setting up a rock polish (or both!). I really think we should be using a life orb set though. Leftovers puts too much pressure on lando to get a swords dance because of how "weak" it is

252+ Atk Life Orb Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 277-328 (85.49 - 101.23%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 160-188 (52.8 - 62.04%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 320-378 (83.33 - 98.43%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

as opposed to

252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 223-264 (85.44 - 101.14%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 213-252 (65.74 - 77.77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 123-145 (40.59 - 47.85%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 246-291 (64.06 - 75.78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

As you can see, though, we are not exactly helpless to those pokes that you mentioned anyway. But as you can also see, switching to life orb brings such a huge amount of kos without swords dance that it seems silly not to :/

And you yourself mentioned the biggest draw to mamo: it's ability to lure skarmory and the like.

What other pokemon can do that as mamo does, exactly? None of those pokes are remotely afraid of switching in to mamoswine, meaning they are quite likely to do so.

 

[MCBarrett]

Considering that DubDance Lando-T is a sweeper, I think many people are missing the mark by suggesting a partner to form a defensive core with it. The ultimate goal is to have Lando-T run train at the end of the game so we don't really need something like Rotom-W to cover it's weaknesses as much as we would if we were using the Bulky Pivot set. What we really need is a wallbreaker to open up the opposing team so we can set up a Landorus-T sweep. With that being said, I recommend that we use the following Pokemon:

Keldeo @ Expert Belt
Timid 252 sp att/ 4 hp/ 252 speed
Hydro Pump
Secret Sword
Icy Wind
HP Ghost

Not only is Keldeo one of the best wallbreakers in the current metagame, but at the same time it does not amplify any of Lando-T's weaknesses. I chose Expert Belt to give us the flexibility to change moves and net surprise KO's on things like Ferrothorn, Skarmory, etc. which will ultimately allow us to clear the path for a Landorus-T sweep that much easier. Icy Wind to hit incoming Lati@s and get the speed drop, and HP Ghost for the best overall coverage to take out as many weakened threats as possible. With this addition we are still pretty weak to Lati@s and sun (unless Lando-T gets a Rock Polish) but these problems can be addressed down the line and I think having a good Offensive Core that can threaten a large portion of the metagame is a good start.

 

[Halcyon.]

How is Double Dance not a sweeper?

 

[vyomov]

How is Double Dance not a sweeper?

Sorry, I meant a "typical" sweeper. Most typical sweepers don't carry much defensive weight on the team, but Landorus-T carries weight both defensively AND offensively, hence I referred to it as a pivot(not saying it's NOT a sweeper, just an offensively-oriented pivot)

 

[X5Dragon]

I prefer Lando to have a lum, for those random burns and toxic attempts, as well as having to attempt to set upon status inflictors if he has not other opportunistic left.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Just wondering how many Pokemon we are voting on in a few days, because I really like vyomov's suggestion and wouldn't want to waste any effort unnecessarily, but if there are multiple ballots I might throw another defensive option out there.

 

[Trainer Au]

4. Trainer Au's SubDiable Gengar: If I was going to submit a Gengar set, I'd use the EB Gengar with Icy wind and Thunder(bolt) to lure out and kill LandoT and Skarm, but in all honesty Gengar isn't a good rain fighter (or Starmie / Rotom-W fighter) and as such I wouldn't vote on him just yet.

I had no idea that Gengar set existed, but it sounds beautiful. Yea, Gengar doesn't help us out at all against rain, but I think that role could be easily filled later on.

 

[Scotti]

Hmm, i feel like this pokemon does a good job with defeating most of Landorus-T counters.

Rotom-Heat @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
Timid Nature
- Overheat
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Volt Switch / Thunderbolt
- Trick

I think Rotom-W would do good since it takes out most of Landorus-T counters. Pokemon named Skarmory or steel types immune to Earthquake lose Overheat from Rotom-H. Which makes Landorus-T life alot easier. Latias still is kinda annoying, but Landorus-T after a few boost should still be able to defeat it(I think). Pokemon named Gliscor and other Landorus-T's lose to Hp Ice. Slowbro is another annoying counter, but Rotom-H can defeat it with Thunderbolt, or you can just use Volt Switch alot, which is a 2hko on the normal defensive Slowbro. It also provides ok synergy with Landorus-T as it resists Ice moves, but it is sadly weak to water. However it can hit water types with a Super Effective STAB Thunderbolt / Volt Switch, so you really don't have to be scared of water types when you can just straight up own them. Anyway what do you think would be better Thunderbolt or Volt Switch?

 

[TGMD]

Mixed Jirachi

Jirachi @ Leftovers
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 152 Atk / 208 SAtk / 148 Spd
Hasty Nature (+Spd, -Def)
- Iron Head
- Grass Knot
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Thunder / Thunderbolt

Amazing submission right here, definitely voting for it unless something crazy comes along, and as a result, I won't be making a submission this round myself. However, I would like to suggest a few changes. First of all, Shuca Berry over Leftovers would really help it destroy all the Pokemon we need it to. Pretty much everything we're trying to catch off guard with this set is a ground type / uses ground type moves, and although Jirachi can outspeed and OHKO most of them, it can still be caught off-guard and killed by the likes of Scarfed / Jolly Landorus-Therian. This also allows Jirachi to beat the likes of Garchomp much easier. Furthermore, this would also make it much easier for Jirachi to switch in on a lot of these Pokemon, although switching a Pokemon with no bulk into STABed ground moves is far from ideal, you can't always be in an ideal situation in this game, and having the option to switch in with out being OHKOed allows for a lot more flexibility and could be clutch in many sticky situations. Finally, if we play smart, it wouldn't be very difficult to bluff a Choice Scarf early game (it's a fast Jirachi with good attack, no Leftovers and Iron Head), making it easier to surprise kill everything.

Secondly, Icy Wind is a great option over Hidden Power [Ice] on this type of Jirachi. Maybe it's just my preference, but the power difference is small (only 15) and the speed drop would be absolutely amazing against more offensive, fast teams, especially when sweepers try to set up on Jirachi, only to find their speed boosts bein neutralized. It does miss a few straight up OHKOs, but that's without Stealth Rock, and Jirachi can outspeed next turn and knock them out anyway. A perfect example of this is against Garchomp, neither Hidden Power [Ice] or Icy Wind OHKO Garchomp (it's possible to stay in on it with Shuca) with the current spread, but Icy Wind drops it's speed below rachi's, so it can be knocked out the next turn. In addition, the speed drops mean Jirachi doesn't really need all that Speed, so you could probably take some of it out and max out SAtk, which would help compensate for the power drop (I haven't seen many max neutral base 100s that don't have a boosting move / are scarfed anyway, so I don't think it's a necessary speed tier to creep regardless of Icy Wind).

Finally, I don't think all that Attack is necessary, I'd probably throw in a bit more bulk if I were you. There's currently no slashes allowed on sets, so just stick to bolt for now. We can change it to Thunder at the very end of the project when we make final edits to the team, anyway.

 

[Sturdynips]

Just a small thing MikeDawg, your attack EVs in the given spread don't match up with the calcs you have used.
Double dance landorus-t lends itself to an offensive team which will greatly benefit from hazards to help facilitate a sweep. For this reason I like lead Skarmory.

Skarmory @ Custap Berry
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Jolly nature
- Spikes
- Stealth Rock
- Brave Bird
- Taunt

This is standard suicide skarm that reliably gets up hazards which will help Landorus-T significantly. Also, as both Skarm and Lando-T are commonly seen running defensive sets, it can add an element of surprise.
I realise that rain becomes a problem if skarm is chosen, keldeo and thundurus-t in particular become very threatening but it is possible to add members later to respond to rain. A potential future pick of a spinblocker to keep the hazards up is a good option, especially jelli as it synergises well with lando.
Feel free to shoot the bird down but I think the offensive support it gives makes Skarm a solid option.

 

[MikeDawg]

Just a small thing MikeDawg, your attack EVs in the given spread don't match up with the calcs you have used.
Double dance landorus-t lends itself to an offensive team which will greatly benefit from hazards to help facilitate a sweep. For this reason I like lead Skarmory.

Skarmory @ Custap Berry
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Jolly nature
- Spikes
- Stealth Rock
- Brave Bird
- Taunt

This is standard suicide skarm that reliably gets up hazards which will help Landorus-T significantly. Also, as both Skarm and Lando-T are commonly seen running defensive sets, it can add an element of surprise.
I realise that rain becomes a problem if skarm is chosen, keldeo and thundurus-t in particular become very threatening but it is possible to add members later to respond to rain. A potential future pick of a spinblocker to keep the hazards up is a good option, especially jelli as it synergises well with lando.
Feel free to shoot the bird down but I think the offensive support it gives makes Skarm a solid option.

Ooh yup. I realize i never git rid of the attack evs in the calc. @_@ will update when i have conputer access.

On the topic of custap skarm, I like it (a lot), but i feel like if we were to choose it now it would limit us to hyper offense which may not be something we want so early

 

[ginganinja]

Isn't there a better way to beating Skarmory other than using a Fire type its obviously not going to stay in on. Like, isn't it worth mentioning some physically sweepers that could cripple Skarmory for Landorus-T to sweep through later. Like, stuff like SD Chomp under rain with Aqua Tail, Terrakion, Lucario etc etc. Pokemon that force Skarmory in (or some other physical wall that Landorus-T appreciates gone) cripple it, and then Landorus-T can sweep later.

 

[Shurtugal]

Ginga, I assume this is because defensive Skarm is often paired with Hippo, or the fact that the idea of using a physical pokemon to break Skarm will most likely be prone to Hippo is one of the reasons. (Keep in mind AT w/o rain for Chomp is weak so that's almost a 2 pokemon submission if you imply toed support)

I know another submission could fix this, as well as rain, but its the principle I'm trying to convey.

(Also iPod post pls forgive vague statements)

I guess you could sac a phy sweeper at +2 to weaken it. But I'm not sure that is ideal.

 

[ginganinja]

Hippowdon is usually specially defensive. Like, I don't think iv ever seen Physically Bulky Hippowdon + Skarm on the same team and if so then you can add that special sweeper to break them anyway.

The alternative (which you have ignored), is that Skamory gets a free layer on Landorus-T, which means that your Heatran is taking Spikes damage over and over again while not beating Skarmory. That is pretty much the crux of the matter, since no skarmory will stay in against a Heatran, when it has free spikes on Landorus-T (plus maybe something else we pick later). SD Scizor is another one that can cripple Skarmory with a +2 LO Superpower or something if you wanted an alternative, its just an idea to get the ideas going. The real point is that against a quality player, he is hardly likely to sac his counter to Landorus-T, unless he has a back up waiting in the wings.

 

[ModestGarchomp]

Nominating Kyurem-B.

Kyurem (Kyurem-B) @ Leftovers
Trait: Teravolt
EVs: 56 HP / 216 SAtk / 236 Spd
Mild Nature (+SAtk, -Def)
- Ice Beam
- Fusion Bolt
- Substitute
- Earth Power

This pokes provides a solid water resist that landorus-t would enjoy from pokes such as bulky toed, rotom-w, starmie, etc. This set also beats pokes that could end Landorus-t's sweep such as Defensive Skarmory and Hippo.

Edit: It's late so if anyone would like to add or comment on this nomination please do.

 

[Pocket]

I am liking HotNCold's Jirachi set the most as Lando-T's offensive partner in crime, since it does lure many of Lando-T's counters and cripple them effectively. It does all this without compounding many weaknesses. TGMDoom offered some suggestions, but I personally prefer the original Lefties + HP Ice. Leftovers makes it more effective as a lure, while also offering some useful recovery, and Jirachi really needs the HP Ice boost to take out Landorus-T.

 

[Ryanor]

I prefer Lando to have a lum, for those random burns and toxic attempts, as well as having to attempt to set upon status inflictors if he has not other opportunistic left.

Maybe Lum Berry is useful if you're afraid of Body Slam Jirachi, but I think Leftovers is a better option because helps alot against stuff like Scizor. It definitely extends the Landorus-T's lifespan. Moreover, Landorus-T can't stay in against something with Scald (most of the "random burns" are induced by this move).

By the way, I really like MixedRachi.

 

[doughboy]

Alright times up. The candidates:

Hidden Power Fire Mamoswine
Specially Defensive Rotom-W
SubDisable Gengar
Choice Scarf Rotom-W
Mixed Jirachi
Specially Defensive Jellicent
Rain Dance Kingdra
Signal Beam Rotom-W
Expert Belt Keldeo
Choice Scarf Rotom-H
Custap Lead Skarmory
Substitute Kyurem-B

To review the sets please click here.

Everyone gets 2 votes. You must use all of your votes. Your votes must be on seperate submissions.

Deadline is 2 days from now.

edit: you can vote for your own set

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Specially Defensive Rotom-W
Specially Defensive Jellicent

 

[Hot N Cold]

Mixed Jirachi
Substitute Kyurem-B

If i cant vote for my own set i just switch my vote to Specially Defensive Rotom-W, but honestly i just think that the Jirachi that i posted is the best temmate possible of them.

 

[PDC]

Mixed Jirachi
Expert Belt Keldeo