I hear Weavile likes switching in on T-Wave yes/no ?
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np: UU Suspect Test Round 2 - Cold As Ice
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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You seem to be confused on the definition of broken. Every Pokemon has at least 1 counter. Heatmor is an almost flawlees counter to Ferrothorn; this doesnt stop Ferrothorn from being broken in an environment like RU. Your also neglecting to analyze all factors. when making an argument, dont neglect that Frosslass has a free turn every 5 turns or so or how nobody would switch a Frosslass in on a Weaville or how you could be easily T-waved on an obvious switch-in.
If you are wanting to ban hax abilities from UU why is Serene Grace Togekiss not being discussed? Or for that matter other abilities that cause hax? Same crap different pile really.
Evasion is like crit really. Would you get angry if a Super Luck pokemon nabbed a game winning crit on you?
I hardly believe the argument that Froslass + Hail is a problem. She is incredibly weak to priority if her sash is broken. Her counters are so incredibly common in this bracket.
If its about free set-up... UU Deoxys D pretty much is guaranteed to set up. And he isn't able to be trapped... Mew is UU as well, getting almost the same guaranteed setup.
And hail being broken? What? The best abusers are going to be Ice pokemon, obviously. With how insanely common Fighting and Fire types are in UU (Hello victini and Scarf Heracross(Lol pursuit trap)), Ice/Hail really gets the short end of the stick. Hail is not much different from Sand, however unlike Hail, Sand gets that +50% SpD boost, as well as a few Sand Rush abusers. Hippopotas isn't exactly fragile either with eviolite.
The only reason I think we are even discussing hail is because it is the most effective stall there is, as Leftovers are cancled out. Beating a stall team takes more just the average Good type coverage team, it requires having a 'mon or two that can break those walls. And when these players can't beat the stall, they are most likely to associate their loss with the most stalliest (not a werd.) team, which happens to be hail.
Just my .02
Evasion is like crit really. Would you get angry if a Super Luck pokemon nabbed a game winning crit on you?
I hardly believe the argument that Froslass + Hail is a problem. She is incredibly weak to priority if her sash is broken. Her counters are so incredibly common in this bracket.
If its about free set-up... UU Deoxys D pretty much is guaranteed to set up. And he isn't able to be trapped... Mew is UU as well, getting almost the same guaranteed setup.
And hail being broken? What? The best abusers are going to be Ice pokemon, obviously. With how insanely common Fighting and Fire types are in UU (Hello victini and Scarf Heracross(Lol pursuit trap)), Ice/Hail really gets the short end of the stick. Hail is not much different from Sand, however unlike Hail, Sand gets that +50% SpD boost, as well as a few Sand Rush abusers. Hippopotas isn't exactly fragile either with eviolite.
The only reason I think we are even discussing hail is because it is the most effective stall there is, as Leftovers are cancled out. Beating a stall team takes more just the average Good type coverage team, it requires having a 'mon or two that can break those walls. And when these players can't beat the stall, they are most likely to associate their loss with the most stalliest (not a werd.) team, which happens to be hail.
Just my .02
Arguably, Serene Grace LOWERS the level of hax. When the odds of a flinch are 60% instead of 30%, it's no longer really hax to get a flinch--it's hax to NOT get a flinch.
Same could be said for evasion abilities.
You know that fire blast you just missed?
Well it was less haxxy on a snow cloaker/sand veiler.
I really hope you guys aren't going to double standard on RNG abilities.
Froslass typically don't use Sash. Hax against Froslass typically does not occur over one turn, but over several. It's going to paralyze you and then spam Substitute until you miss / get fully paralyzed, laying down Spikes with the free turns. Spikes are typically worth more than critical hits, and I think quite a few people would be happy to play a 5v6 game if they start with 3 layers of Spikes down.
Togekiss is fine because it can be walled. A Pokemon like Empoleon or Registeel can take unboosted Air Slashes all day and force Togekiss out (or put up SR). Togekiss can use TWave, Nasty Plot and Roost, but once it starts boosting / using recovery its moves get predictable and you can go to a faster Pokemon to kill it; its speed isn't exactly stellar. With only Air Slash as well its coverage is also weak. A walled Togekiss achieves nothing. Froslass on the other hand can be walled (Milotic / Chansey etc can tank Blizzards forever and ever) but that will typically mean 3 layers of Spikes. In the worst case scenario you can revenge Togekiss, but against Froslass you face the 20% chance of missing. Since revenging Pokemon are typically frail, and since teams typically only have one dedicated revenge killer, missing that 20% can cost you the game. Of course too, if Froslass has already gotten down its 3 layers of Spikes it can afford to die.
You CAN threaten to sweep a hail team with Scarf Heracross or Victini, but only up to a point. A good hail team will have counters to these Pokemon. Heracross cannot Close Combat safely as long as Froslass is alive. Victini can spam V-Create, but it does have some solid counters if nothing else. You can bet a good hail team will have Pokemon like Hitmontop, Nidoqueen, Rhyperior, and similar Pokemon to tank these hits. Both Pokemon are fully vulnerable to entry hazards, not to mention hail, and so they will die eventually. In the worst case scenario there's nothing stopping the hail team from Scarfing a faster Pokemon, e.g. Rotom-F. It's a tight race to sweep before you get swept.
Finally hail teams aren't necessarily stall. There're plenty of offensive hail teams out there that spam Blizzard with Spikes support. To say hail stall is the most effective hail team out there is very narrow, to say the least.
Personally, I'm not convinced hail without Snow Cloak Froslass is broken, but I'm coming pretty close to changing my mind.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3723735#post3723735
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3724569#post3724569
At least no one had made that comparison in 10 pages of posts...
What priority are you going to hit it with? UNSTAB Bullet Punch that like three pokemon get? Failed sucker punches while it sets up spikes? Froslass is immune to the two most common priority moves in the tier and resistant to the third. Also, froslass almost never runs focus sash...........
Deo-D is much slower and has no offensive ability against the most common spinners or opposing spikes users. Mew doesn't even get spikes.
Are you actually kidding me. First of all, every player who posts here knows how to beat stall. Secondly, the most common hail playstyle isn't even stall. And finally, if you think voters are biased against stall, you've obviously never encountered a Chansey.
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As a brief reprieve from this hail stuff, I'd like to talk about rain. Specifically, how fantastic it in this metagame. I don't understand why hail is the most powerful weather when UU has absolutely amazing rain setters, the best swift swimmers, and a metagame severely unprepared for it. The number of easy ladder wins I had last night almost made me feel bad. There are literally no water absorbers and the most common bulky waters are all easily handled by any given rain sweeper (especially now that milotic seems to be running SpD sets). Grass types are also almost non-existent except for the occasional roserade or celebi, probably because of hail. Seriously guys, go try out rain dance.
You're too late Flare, check out post #1050 on page 42 and the discussion immediately following it :) I haven't experimented with rain since then, though.
Top rain foes #1 Abomasnow #2 enemy Kingdra #3 Celebi #4 Empoleon. Ugh. Empoleon does very good against most rain sweepers really, only losing out to Pokemon with HP Electric ... I can see Shaymin being a huge threat too, but it's really rare.
Top rain foes #1 Abomasnow #2 enemy Kingdra #3 Celebi #4 Empoleon. Ugh. Empoleon does very good against most rain sweepers really, only losing out to Pokemon with HP Electric ... I can see Shaymin being a huge threat too, but it's really rare.
I just read that discussion. I don't think any of the people posting about how rain was unviable actually used it though. Or at least, not well. One of the posters brings up scarf abomasnow as a huge counter, when that's like my favorite variant of the thing to see (doesn't even outspeed crobat and dies so fast). And in general abomasnow gets forced out by two of my three rain creators and can't switch into any of my sweepers without dying horribly. Enemy kingdra would be a huge issue actually, but luckily I haven't run into one yet. Celebi gets 2hko'd by [water move] + [coverage move]. Empoleon can't actually do anything to either kingdra or gorebyss, while it takes massive damage from waterfall/surf.
I know I played a few people who post here yesterday so maybe they'll also have opinions to post.
I know I played a few people who post here yesterday so maybe they'll also have opinions to post.
Well Empoleon gets Roar, so unless Gorebyss uses HP Electric it'll just blow its White Herb attempting to Shell Smash (or, if it has Life Orb, then it dies to Empoleon's Scald anyway). Kingdra's dual STABs are resisted and it can't Dragon Dance on Roar Empoleon, either. I've found that Empoleon while walls individual rain sweepers nicely, it can't wall them all without instant recovery, so it's not too bad.
Did you not run into support Celebi? Modest 252 SpA LO Omastar's Surf in the rain does a whooping 26.7% - 31.7% to 252/252+ Calm Celebi while the follow up Ice Beam does 48% - 56.9%, not enough to KO. This is the strongest unboosted special rain sweeper too. Against the same 252/252+ Calm Celebi, Kabutops does 31.4% - 37.1% with Waterfall and 53% - 62.6%, still no KO, and just feeds Celebi's Giga Drain. Besides, using Kabutops against an intact team just doesn't feel right. Which rain sweepers are you using? Kingdra obviously, but what about the others?
Did you not run into support Celebi? Modest 252 SpA LO Omastar's Surf in the rain does a whooping 26.7% - 31.7% to 252/252+ Calm Celebi while the follow up Ice Beam does 48% - 56.9%, not enough to KO. This is the strongest unboosted special rain sweeper too. Against the same 252/252+ Calm Celebi, Kabutops does 31.4% - 37.1% with Waterfall and 53% - 62.6%, still no KO, and just feeds Celebi's Giga Drain. Besides, using Kabutops against an intact team just doesn't feel right. Which rain sweepers are you using? Kingdra obviously, but what about the others?
I attempted to try a Rain team sometime ago myself and it is infuriating to use to say the least. I find it not even remotely near as effective as Sand or Hail sweeps simply because its not balanced, it has limited versatility, little defense, weak to quick stall and such high powered offense is redundant. From my attempts I quickly found Gorebyss is very redundant, if you're going bother setting up Gorebyss you don't even need Rain. Just Shell Smash and pass it to something like Nidoking or whatever for the win, its ridiculous like that.
With that said Omastar, Kingdra, Kabutops are the main sweepers of choice. That brings me to the second problem they counter themselves, inherently the Rain setup is at a disadvantage. You need a turn to Rain Dance and within that turn all they have to do is bring one of those 3 (usually Kingdra who is good on his own or Omastar which shows up on Sand) and sweep with the free boost. There is usually nothing you can do because ironically you're weak to ditto battles.
I don't doubt you can make a very effective top end Rain team but these are not the same Rain teams which dominated Gen 4 UU because Hail/Sand and quick stall are around and the competition is tougher.
With that said Omastar, Kingdra, Kabutops are the main sweepers of choice. That brings me to the second problem they counter themselves, inherently the Rain setup is at a disadvantage. You need a turn to Rain Dance and within that turn all they have to do is bring one of those 3 (usually Kingdra who is good on his own or Omastar which shows up on Sand) and sweep with the free boost. There is usually nothing you can do because ironically you're weak to ditto battles.
I don't doubt you can make a very effective top end Rain team but these are not the same Rain teams which dominated Gen 4 UU because Hail/Sand and quick stall are around and the competition is tougher.
This is seriously how every match I have against a Froslass user goes for me.
If froslass gets in for free (such as on an advantageous double switch as in this case) it's guaranteed to get all three layers down and there's basically nothing you can do about it. Even in this case where the guy made poor predictions (going for blizzard instead of sub against celebi) he still got away with it because of snow cloak BS. I'm forced to stay in with blastoise as I don't want any of my faster pokes to eat a blizzard or thunder wave so my best bet is just to kill the sub and revenge froslass, but I couldn't even accomplish that.
I never shell smash when I know empoleon is still alive obviously. If it wants to switch in and roar gorebyss, it takes ~80% damage doing so, and all it'll do is bring in another rain sweeper or supporter that can ohko it. Kingdra's dual STABs might be resisted but it still does more than enough to wreck Empoleon with two waterfalls (ditto for Tops although he has to watch out for a Torrent/rain boosted Scald).
And I can't say I've ever run into specially defensive celebi. I did run into a couple of physically defensive ones, which are easily 2hko'd by the special rain sweepers and ohko'd by Tops after an SD. That's the thing about switching into rain sweepers...you can't. You have to sacrifice something or they set up on the switch and wreck your shit.
As for my rain sweepers, I am using kingdra/tops/gorebyss ^__^
the problem with rain is the same problem it's always had: once the rain stops, the opponent usually has the momentum back, and having 3-4 rain sweepers really limits the amount of things you can switch into and fall back on. for this reason, it's kinda inferior to the permanent weather brought by sand and hail, and often times a lot less reliable. furthermore, rain forces you to run full out offense, where as hail and sand can run a lot more balanced teams. idk, it might just be me, but imo right now is not the time to be running rain; the metagame basically shits all over it.
You do know that the chances of that sequence happening are 1 in 5million right? Maybe you need some new lucky socks or something.
no, rain shits on the metagame.
With the advent of the latest DW area being released, some new threats have also popped in. Alakazam pretty much can take over whatever role Duosion has, and it can also find use on Hail teams and such(though I'm not sure how to make of it).
Volbeat is gay. Like, really gay. I think a rise in Murkrow may be incoming, since priority Tail GlowPass is really insane(QuiverPass is madness already).
So, what do you think?
Volbeat is gay. Like, really gay. I think a rise in Murkrow may be incoming, since priority Tail GlowPass is really insane(QuiverPass is madness already).
So, what do you think?
Prankster Sableye = gg stall. It has Priority Taunt, WoW AND Recover, coupled with 0 weaknesses and 3 immunities. This thing is going to be hell for all non-fire type physical based pokemon, bar Heracross.
Though it does have pretty lackluster defences, Sableye can still be made to great use. It's immunity to Seismic Toss enables it to stall Chansey to death with WoW, and Priority Taunt + Recover gives it the possibility of being an amazing Froslass check. Of course, for much faster stalling Seismic Toss/Night Shade are required, Seismic Toss for Chansey and Night Shade for Froslass respectively, meaning you have to choose between the two.
Also;
1# Donphan: - 18.25563%
2# Hitmontop: - 14.16502%
Ghost typing, Taunt, WoW? Try spinning now. ;D
(inb4Blastoiseusagerise)
Though it does have pretty lackluster defences, Sableye can still be made to great use. It's immunity to Seismic Toss enables it to stall Chansey to death with WoW, and Priority Taunt + Recover gives it the possibility of being an amazing Froslass check. Of course, for much faster stalling Seismic Toss/Night Shade are required, Seismic Toss for Chansey and Night Shade for Froslass respectively, meaning you have to choose between the two.
Also;
1# Donphan: - 18.25563%
2# Hitmontop: - 14.16502%
Ghost typing, Taunt, WoW? Try spinning now. ;D
(inb4Blastoiseusagerise)
Prankster Sableye will be popular for a few weeks until people realize it's outclassed by Mew, who can actually take a hit and doesnt rely on night shade. The same mons that counter taunt wow mew counter Sableye, and instead of having to break through Mew's bulk, they'll just laugh at the fact that Sableye can't take a hit.
Alakazam, on the other hand, was already very good in uu without magic guard. Magic Guard means it can break through Chansey. I expect Alakazam to become a fairly common sight pretty soon.
Alakazam, on the other hand, was already very good in uu without magic guard. Magic Guard means it can break through Chansey. I expect Alakazam to become a fairly common sight pretty soon.
I wonder if Spiritomb will experience a revival alongside Alakazam.
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