np: UU Suspect Test Round 2 - Cold As Ice

[Forsety]

Can you explain to me the meaning of this 'quick stall' business?

Quick stall is just effectively stalling through offensive pressure, constant pivoting rather than defensive invincibility + phazing to force switches and pile on hazard damage.

Basically something like what you do with Celebi/Arcanine, Flygon/Milotic, Slowbro or Mew/Zapdos setups or even Golurk/Stoutland. What they all got going for them is resists/bulk plus a ton of damage, can afford to run every 1-2 turns and you don't really have a choice against them but to switch or do non-fatal damage in return for being KO'd.

The big difference is you're not really aiming to stall or sweep but the sheer knowledge they can do so is what forces your opponent to make switches because its the sensible thing to do and you've effectively pulled off the same thing dedicated stall teams aim for. Lots of people do it already without recognizing it but quick stall is just to distinguish it from common defensive stall and its different enough to warrant it. It was a coined term being thrown around near end of Gen 4 and early Gen 5 and I like to use it.

I mean that's clearly not a fair log because the chances of that happening are very slim. It does show how idiotic the ability can get though, especially when Thunder Wave kicks in.

Not as slim as we'd be led to believe, I see this kind of shit happen way too often to be as unlikely as you'd think. I've lost matches completely thanks to Froslass alone and 7+ turns of being screwed over by paralysis/misses or having a bloody Spinner D-Bonded. Hell as I post this I just lost two matches in a row simply to Froslass haxing its way 7+ turns through to full hazards and having zero opportunities to spin from being beaten down by high powered blizzards afterwards.

 

[Heysup]

Not as slim as we'd be led to believe, I see this kind of shit happen way too often to be as unlikely as you'd think. I've lost matches completely thanks to Froslass alone and 7+ turns of being screwed over by paralysis/misses or having a bloody Spinner D-Bonded. Hell as I post this I just lost two matches in a row simply to Froslass haxing its way 7+ turns through to full hazards and having zero opportunities to spin from being beaten down by high powered blizzards afterwards.

Are you really suggesting that this happens more then mathematically should, then using that as an argument?

There are lots of valid arguments for arguing whether or not Froslass in Hail is broken, but that is most definitely not one. I could find an example of a battle where Psychic SpDef lowered three times in six attacks and just as logically suggest that Psychic is broken because it lowers SpD 50% of the time not the 10% per attack as it suggests.

On a separate note, Jabba has hinted that he does not want any combo bans regarding Froslass + Hail, so maybe we should talk about Hail vs Froslass further, since that topic is still on the table.

I personally still think it's silly for Froslass to take the fall for Hail's over all annoyingness. Snow Cloak is not unique to Froslass anyway, and I'd be more inclined to ban it on principle. If Froslass was the cause of hail being broken, it would be broken with or without Hail.

EDIT: Combo bans aren't on the table, I think you may have misunderstood.

 

[WinstonShnozwick]

It makes no sense to combo ban. Why does no one realize that we can just ban snow cloak? Is that not possible??

 

[TM13IceBeam]

mathematically, you have a 75% chance of moving with paralysis, but then with an 80% chance of hitting Froslass under Hail, you have a 60% chance of being able to hit Froslass at all. chances are, in 5 turns you'll miss twice, enough for Froslass to lay down 2 layers of Spikes.

 

[Forsety]

Are you really suggesting that this happens more then mathematically should, then using that as an argument?

There are lots of valid arguments for arguing whether or not Froslass in Hail is broken, but that is most definitely not one. I could find an example of a battle where Psychic SpDef lowered three times in six attacks and just as logically suggest that Psychic is broken because it lowers SpD 50% of the time not the 10% per attack as it suggests.

That comparison doesn't work at all since that is a isolated move compared with a whole mon and its strategy in general. But no that is not what I'm suggesting. What worries me is that generally speaking Froslass on its own is already far too good a support Pokemon for UU. I know plenty will say its not a broken Pokemon on its own right and it doesn't seem that way either.

Its what it offers to a match that breaks it, as someone already mentioned if I could get a free layer of hazards in exchange for a 1 dead pokemon handicap by god most people would jump at it. Hazards are extremely overpowering in UU, most of the stuff in UU can be classed into two categories. Those who simply lacked the power to stay in the pitifully small OU percentile and those who are raped by hazards and this is perfectly supported. Stats show alone how the top UU rankings are dominated by Rapid Spinners.

Look at it in terms of momentum, a good switch in which is fairly easy as it is is already 1 free Spike layer as they have to go to a counter. Now consider also that it is generally speaking impossible to Spin a Froslass and Foresight is far too unwiedly a move so in short you'll always get 1 spike layer down minimum with a 1 turn advantage.

At this point they have the option to status you or outright Destiny Bond you for a free KO AND keep hazards and if you get psyched out by D-Bond they just got a 2nd layer and maybe a 3rd layer when you try off it. In a normal scenario this already puts you at a severe disdavantage and thats just normal non-Hail scenario since if you don't kill it the cycle repeats.

Now you throw in Snow Cloak and Hail into the mix and now your already low odds of disrupting the setup are down to a flat 80% success rate maximum. Throw in paralysis for a 60% success rate of pulling through tops, or if you're gutsy and use confuse ray a 40% rate and this is assuming you are lucky. Thats the scary part, I can half heartedly joke about bad luck in experience but statistically there is quite abit of truth to it.

You may not agree but I see it perfectly relateable to the Garchomp in OU scenario, its already extremely good at what it does and the regular environment simply makes it better. I'd generally be willing to ban it on principle of being a uncounterable hazard setup in a hazard weak tier alone.

 

[devoninja]

Could someone explain to me why people think this tier is "hazard weak". If anything this tier has way more opportunities to heal off entry hazard damage and way more pokes that won't be ohko'd even after hazards. I would say this tier is "hazard possible" because setting up hazards doesn't mean letting some monster like latios or whatnot smash your face in or set up. Also the spinners in this tier are also good pokes yet they can afford to spend a turn to spin. altogether I'd say hazards are in a pretty good place.

 

[Focus]

On a separate note, Jabba has hinted that he does not want any combo bans regarding Froslass + Hail, so maybe we should talk about Hail vs Froslass further, since that topic is still on the table.

So combo bans are off the table for good. That leaves us with a few options on how to proceed. Now the only sensible options (arguably) are banning Froslass, Snow Cloak, Snow Warning, Abomasnow, or none of the above. The $64,000 question is whether or not the presence of hail (Froslass aside) is having a fundamentally negative impact on the metagame. What properties do hail teams possess that would justify banning Abomasnow? In essence, If Froslass were banned, would hail teams be too centralizing or difficult to handle?

The reason I ask all this is because there is a balance that needs to be achieved when dealing with bans. If too little is banned, the metagame stagnates, and it is not as fun for the individual to play and try to improve. Ban too much, the ban list gets unnecessarily long, and the tier loses credibility (think “Lol Smogon banned Blaziken,” but much more widespread and justified). In my opinion, a competitive tier should reward battling skill, teambuilding skill, and contain a multitude of possible teams that are viable, and a ban on Snow Warning might do more harm than good. Part of the reason I got into UU in the first place was because I wanted to try out Stallrein and hail in general in a fifth-generation environment. I’m not really saying that banning Snow Warning is the wrong thing to do in this circumstance (though I kinda am); I’m just saying that if we do decide to ban hail, we better have a better reason to do so than to save Froslass. I just want some debate on hail itself.

I personally still think it's silly for Froslass to take the fall for Hail's over all annoyingness. Snow Cloak is not unique to Froslass anyway, and I'd be more inclined to ban it on principle. If Froslass was the cause of hail being broken, it would be broken with or without Hail.

Just as Froslass can serve an important role on a non-hail team, Abomasnow is also a niche pokemon that can function well on its own. Abomasnow’s cool typing and adequate stats let it be a great check to most bulky waters, some bulky grounds, and pokemon with a high HP stat such as Snorlax and Chansey. A ban on Abomasnow would indeed fix the problems associated with hail teams, but I would prefer to go the route that has the least collateral damage.

Either way, it looks like the metagame will look completely different by the time we finally get around to the third round of voting. I am actually curious to see how Magic Guard Alakazam will fit into the metagame. It fortunately(?) has the potential to wreck Hail teams (except maybe Froslass, if she has a sub or predicts a Thunder Wave on the switch…), so it is quite possible that all this debate will be made obsolete in the near future.

 

[Heysup]

mathematically, you have a 75% chance of moving with paralysis, but then with an 80% chance of hitting Froslass under Hail, you have a 60% chance of being able to hit Froslass at all. chances are, in 5 turns you'll miss twice, enough for Froslass to lay down 2 layers of Spikes.

Yea but the chances of not moving what was it, 6 turns in a row?

1/4^6...right?

That comparison doesn't work at all since that is a isolated move compared with a whole mon and its strategy in general. But no that is not what I'm suggesting. What worries me is that generally speaking Froslass on its own is already far too good a support Pokemon for UU. I know plenty will say its not a broken Pokemon on its own right and it doesn't seem that way either.

Well that isn't really what you said in that post, but I'm glad you don't think that it's true.

I'll address hazards later...but in short Froslass is not broken by itself the way it was last gen.

Its what it offers to a match that breaks it, as someone already mentioned if I could get a free layer of hazards in exchange for a 1 dead pokemon handicap by god most people would jump at it. Hazards are extremely overpowering in UU, most of the stuff in UU can be classed into two categories. Those who simply lacked the power to stay in the pitifully small OU percentile and those who are raped by hazards and this is perfectly supported. Stats show alone how the top UU rankings are dominated by Rapid Spinners.

3 Layers of Spikes for one Pokemon is a good trade off IF you can keep them off the field. But in this metagame, that's pretty hard to do with so many good Spinners. And think about it, you set up Spikes and the mon you lose IS the Spin Blocker! You will have a bit of trouble keeping them on the field.

Look at it in terms of momentum, a good switch in which is fairly easy as it is is already 1 free Spike layer as they have to go to a counter. Now consider also that it is generally speaking impossible to Spin a Froslass and Foresight is far too unwiedly a move so in short you'll always get 1 spike layer down minimum with a 1 turn advantage.

Froslass is one of the frailest Ghosts ever, it is easily beaten and Spun against. I've been laddering with it for a while now, not as easy as you think.

At this point they have the option to status you or outright Destiny Bond you for a free KO AND keep hazards and if you get psyched out by D-Bond they just got a 2nd layer and maybe a 3rd layer when you try off it. In a normal scenario this already puts you at a severe disdavantage and thats just normal non-Hail scenario since if you don't kill it the cycle repeats.

Most don't even have room in their moveset for D-Bond. I've only seen Bulky Slass and Hail Slass. Neither of which have room.

Now you throw in Snow Cloak and Hail into the mix and now your already low odds of disrupting the setup are down to a flat 80% success rate maximum. Throw in paralysis for a 60% success rate of pulling through tops, or if you're gutsy and use confuse ray a 40% rate and this is assuming you are lucky. Thats the scary part, I can half heartedly joke about bad luck in experience but statistically there is quite abit of truth to it.

It seems to me that the only thing really broken in this scenario is Snow Cloak and Thunder Wave in tandem. The Blizzard helps too, but you don't mention that...it's hail that's causing all of those problems.

 

[Nysyr]

Kinda stuff that happens to lass outside of hail:

Hide

Start of turn 6
Chieliee called Heracross back!
Chieliee sent out Blastoise!

Mamoswine used Stealth Rock!
Pointed stones float in the air around Chieliee's team!

Start of turn 7
Nysyr called Mamoswine back!
Nysyr sent out Froslass!

The foe's Blastoise used Scald!
Froslass lost 118 HP! (34% of its health)

Start of turn 8
Froslass used Spikes!
Spikes were scattered all around the feet of Chieliee's team!

The foe's Blastoise used Scald!
Froslass lost 106 HP! (30% of its health)

Nysyr: hmm
Nysyr: please hit me for top end
Nysyr: :D

Start of turn 9
Froslass used Destiny Bond!
Froslass is trying to take its foe with it!

The foe's Blastoise used Scald!
Froslass lost 115 HP! (33% of its health)
Froslass was burned!

Froslass is hurt by its burn!
Froslass fainted!
Chieliee: LOL
Nysyr: shiii
Nysyr: r u ceral
Chieliee: perfect
Chieliee: xD

Hide

Nysyr sent out Clefable!
Big Blue sent out Mew!

Start of turn 1
Clefable used Magic Coat!
Clefable shrouded itself with Magic Coat!

The foe's Mew used Taunt!
The foe's Mew's Taunt was bounced back by Magic Coat!
The foe's Mew fell for the taunt!

Start of turn 2
Big Blue called Mew back!
Big Blue sent out Heracross!

Nysyr called Clefable back!
Nysyr sent out Froslass!

Focus is watching the battle.

Start of turn 3
Froslass used Spikes!
Spikes were scattered all around the feet of Big Blue's team!

The foe's Heracross used Substitute!
The foe's Heracross made a substitute!

The foe's Heracross restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 4
Froslass used Spikes!
Spikes were scattered all around the feet of Big Blue's team!

The foe's Heracross used Stone Edge!
It's super effective!
Froslass lost 300 HP! (87% of its health)

The foe's Heracross restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 5
Froslass used Destiny Bond!
Froslass is trying to take its foe with it!

The foe's Heracross used Megahorn!
It's not very effective...
Froslass lost 43 HP! (12% of its health)
Froslass fainted!
Froslass took the foe's Heracross down with it!
The foe's Heracross fainted!

Hide

thurg sent out Victini!
Nysyr sent out Clefable!
Nysyr: lewl
Nysyr: you would use victini

Start of turn 1
The foe's Victini used V-create!
Clefable lost 286 HP! (72% of its health)
The foe's Victini's Speed fell!
The foe's Victini's Defense fell!
The foe's Victini's Sp. Def. fell!

Clefable used Counter!
The foe's Victini lost 100% of its health!
The foe's Victini fainted!

thurg sent out Momartik! (Froslass)

Nysyr: troll me bro

Start of turn 2
Clefable used Magic Coat!
Clefable shrouded itself with Magic Coat!

The foe's Momartik used Taunt!
The foe's Momartik's Taunt was bounced back by Magic Coat!
The foe's Momartik fell for the taunt!

Nysyr: oh, counter trolled

Start of turn 3
The foe's Momartik used Ice Beam!
Clefable lost 99 HP! (25% of its health)

Clefable used Softboiled!
Clefable regained health!

Start of turn 4
thurg called Momartik back!
thurg sent out Fermite! (Durant)

Clefable used Softboiled!
Clefable regained health!

Start of turn 5
The foe's Fermite used Hone Claws!
The foe's Fermite's Attack rose!
The foe's Fermite's Accuracy rose!

Clefable used Counter!
But it failed!

Start of turn 6
The foe's Fermite used Hone Claws!
The foe's Fermite's Attack rose!
The foe's Fermite's Accuracy rose!

Clefable used Counter!
But it failed!

Start of turn 7
The foe's Fermite used Hone Claws!
The foe's Fermite's Attack rose!
The foe's Fermite's Accuracy rose!

Clefable used Counter!
But it failed!

Start of turn 8
The foe's Fermite used Hone Claws!
The foe's Fermite's Attack rose!
The foe's Fermite's Accuracy rose!

Clefable used Counter!
But it failed!

Start of turn 9
The foe's Fermite used Iron Head!
Clefable lost 393 HP! (99% of its health)
Clefable hung on using its Focus Sash!

Clefable used Counter!
The foe's Fermite lost 100% of its health!
The foe's Fermite fainted!

thurg sent out Momartik! (Froslass)

Start of turn 10
Nysyr called Clefable back!
Nysyr sent out Weavile!

Weavile is exerting its Pressure!
The foe's Momartik used Ice Beam!
It's not very effective...
Weavile lost 54 HP! (19% of its health)

Start of turn 11
Weavile used Punishment!
It's super effective!
The foe's Momartik lost 98% of its health!

The foe's Momartik used Spikes!
Spikes were scattered all around the feet of Nysyr's team!

The foe's Momartik restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 12
thurg called Momartik back!
thurg sent out Donphan!

Weavile used Ice Shard!
It's super effective!
The foe's Donphan lost 30% of its health!

The foe's Donphan restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 13
Nysyr called Weavile back!
Nysyr sent out Froslass!
Froslass is hurt by spikes!

The foe's Donphan used Earthquake!
Froslass lost 235 HP! (68% of its health)

The foe's Donphan restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 14
thurg called Donphan back!
thurg sent out Momartik! (Froslass)

Froslass used Destiny Bond!
Froslass is trying to take its foe with it!

The foe's Momartik restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 15
Froslass used Weather Ball!
It had no effect!

The foe's Momartik used Taunt!
Froslass fell for the taunt!

The foe's Momartik restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Nysyr: derp no hail

Start of turn 16
Nysyr called Froslass back!
Nysyr sent out Mamoswine!
Mamoswine is hurt by spikes!

The foe's Momartik used Spikes!
Spikes were scattered all around the feet of Nysyr's team!

The foe's Momartik restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 17
Mamoswine used Ice Shard!
It's not very effective...
The foe's Momartik lost 13% of its health!

The foe's Momartik used Spikes!
Spikes were scattered all around the feet of Nysyr's team!

The foe's Momartik restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 18
The foe's Momartik used Ice Beam!
Mamoswine lost 138 HP! (38% of its health)

Mamoswine used Stealth Rock!
Pointed stones float in the air around thurg's team!

The foe's Momartik restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 19
The foe's Momartik used Ice Beam!
Mamoswine lost 141 HP! (39% of its health)

Mamoswine used Earthquake!
The foe's Momartik lost 24% of its health!
The foe's Momartik fainted!

Froslasses in hail with one being the every-so-annoying Sub para lass

Hide

isis123459 sent out Abomasnow!
Nysyr sent out Froslass!
The foe's Abomasnow's Snow Warning whipped up a hailstorm!

Start of turn 1
Froslass used Taunt!
The foe's Abomasnow fell for the taunt!

The foe's Abomasnow can't use Leech Seed after the taunt!

Hail continues to fall!

Start of turn 2
Froslass used Spikes!
Spikes were scattered all around the feet of isis123459's team!

The foe's Abomasnow used Wood Hammer!
Froslass lost 249 HP! (72% of its health)
The foe's Abomasnow is hit with recoil!

Hail continues to fall!
The foe's Abomasnow restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 3
Froslass used Destiny Bond!
Froslass is trying to take its foe with it!

The foe's Abomasnow used Wood Hammer!
Froslass lost 94 HP! (27% of its health)
Froslass fainted!
Froslass took the foe's Abomasnow down with it!
The foe's Abomasnow fainted!

Hail continues to fall!
isis123459 sent out Froslass!
The foe's Froslass is hurt by spikes!

Nysyr sent out Clefable!

Start of turn 4
Clefable used Magic Coat!
Clefable shrouded itself with Magic Coat!

The foe's Froslass used Spikes!
The foe's Froslass's Spikes was bounced back by Magic Coat!
Spikes were scattered all around the feet of isis123459's team!

Hail continues to fall!
The foe's Froslass restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 5
Clefable used Magic Coat!
Clefable shrouded itself with Magic Coat!

The foe's Froslass used Substitute!
The foe's Froslass made a substitute!

Hail continues to fall!
The foe's Froslass restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 6
Clefable used Magic Coat!
Clefable shrouded itself with Magic Coat!

The foe's Froslass used Thunder Wave!
The foe's Froslass's Thunder Wave was bounced back by Magic Coat!
The foe's Froslass's substitute blocked Thunder Wave!

Hail continues to fall!
The foe's Froslass restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 7
Clefable used Magic Coat!
Clefable shrouded itself with Magic Coat!

The foe's Froslass used Blizzard!
Clefable lost 135 HP! (34% of its health)
Clefable was frozen solid!

Hail continues to fall!
The foe's Froslass restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Nysyr: u srs
isis123459: sorry

Start of turn 8
Nysyr called Clefable back!
Nysyr sent out Mamoswine!

The foe's Froslass used Spikes!
Spikes were scattered all around the feet of Nysyr's team!

Hail continues to fall!
The foe's Froslass restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 9
The foe's Froslass used Blizzard!
Mamoswine lost 169 HP! (46% of its health)

Mamoswine used Stealth Rock!
Pointed stones float in the air around isis123459's team!

Hail continues to fall!
The foe's Froslass restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 10
The foe's Froslass used Blizzard!
Mamoswine lost 178 HP! (49% of its health)

Mamoswine used Earthquake!
The foe's Froslass's substitute faded!

Hail continues to fall!
The foe's Froslass restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 11
Mamoswine used Ice Shard!
It's not very effective...
The foe's Froslass lost 13% of its health!

The foe's Froslass used Blizzard!
Mamoswine lost 14 HP! (3% of its health)
Mamoswine fainted!

Hail continues to fall!
The foe's Froslass restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Nysyr sent out Cryogonal!

Start of turn 12
The foe's Froslass used Thunder Wave!
Cryogonal is paralyzed! It may be unable to move!

Cryogonal used Blizzard!
It's not very effective...
The foe's Froslass lost 31% of its health!

Hail continues to fall!
The foe's Froslass restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 13
The foe's Froslass used Substitute!
The foe's Froslass made a substitute!

Cryogonal is paralyzed! It can't move!

Hail continues to fall!
The foe's Froslass restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 14
The foe's Froslass used Spikes!
Spikes were scattered all around the feet of Nysyr's team!

Cryogonal used Blizzard!
It's not very effective...
The foe's Froslass's substitute faded!

Hail continues to fall!
The foe's Froslass restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 15
The foe's Froslass used Spikes!
Spikes were scattered all around the feet of Nysyr's team!

Cryogonal used Blizzard!
It's not very effective...
The foe's Froslass lost 29% of its health!

Hail continues to fall!
The foe's Froslass restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 16
isis123459 called Froslass back!
isis123459 sent out Cryogonal!
Pointed stones dug into the foe's Cryogonal!

Cryogonal is paralyzed! It can't move!

Hail continues to fall!
The foe's Cryogonal restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 17
The foe's Cryogonal used Rapid Spin!
Cryogonal lost 21 HP! (6% of its health)
The foe's Cryogonal blew away Spikes!
The foe's Cryogonal blew away Stealth Rock!

Cryogonal used Rapid Spin!
The foe's Cryogonal lost 6% of its health!
Cryogonal blew away Spikes!

Hail continues to fall!
The foe's Cryogonal restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Cryogonal restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 18
Nysyr called Cryogonal back!
Nysyr sent out Clefable!

The foe's Cryogonal used Hidden Power!
Clefable lost 67 HP! (17% of its health)
Clefable thawed out!

Hail continues to fall!
The foe's Cryogonal restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 19
The foe's Cryogonal used Blizzard!
Clefable lost 165 HP! (41% of its health)

Clefable used Softboiled!
Clefable regained health!

Hail continues to fall!
The foe's Cryogonal restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 20
isis123459 called Cryogonal back!
isis123459 sent out Flygon!

Clefable used Softboiled!
Clefable regained health!

Hail continues to fall!
The foe's Flygon is buffeted by the hail!
Nysyr: epic troll here
Nysyr: unless u used rocks..

Start of turn 21
The foe's Flygon used Fire Punch!
Clefable lost 87 HP! (22% of its health)

Clefable used Counter!
The foe's Flygon lost 51% of its health!

Hail continues to fall!
The foe's Flygon is buffeted by the hail!
Nysyr: aw only 22%

Start of turn 22
isis123459 called Flygon back!
isis123459 sent out Froslass!

Clefable used Magic Coat!
Clefable shrouded itself with Magic Coat!

Hail continues to fall!
The foe's Froslass restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 23
The foe's Froslass used Substitute!
The foe's Froslass made a substitute!

Clefable used Heal Bell!
A bell chimed!

Hail continues to fall!
The foe's Froslass restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 24
Nysyr called Clefable back!
Nysyr sent out Cryogonal!

The foe's Froslass used Blizzard!
It's not very effective...
Cryogonal lost 45 HP! (13% of its health)

Hail continues to fall!
The foe's Froslass restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Cryogonal restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 25
The foe's Froslass used Thunder Wave!
Cryogonal is paralyzed! It may be unable to move!

Cryogonal is paralyzed! It can't move!

Hail continues to fall!
The foe's Froslass restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Cryogonal restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 26
The foe's Froslass used Spikes!
Spikes were scattered all around the feet of Nysyr's team!

Cryogonal is paralyzed! It can't move!

Hail continues to fall!
The foe's Froslass restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Cryogonal restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 27
The foe's Froslass used Spikes!
Spikes were scattered all around the feet of Nysyr's team!

Cryogonal used Blizzard!
It's not very effective...
The foe's Froslass's substitute faded!

Hail continues to fall!
The foe's Froslass restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 28
The foe's Froslass used Substitute!
The foe's Froslass made a substitute!

Cryogonal used Blizzard!
It's not very effective...
The foe's Froslass's substitute faded!

Hail continues to fall!
The foe's Froslass restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 29
The foe's Froslass used Blizzard!
It's not very effective...
Cryogonal lost 47 HP! (13% of its health)

Cryogonal used Blizzard!
It's not very effective...
The foe's Froslass lost 24% of its health!
The foe's Froslass fainted!

Outside of hail she is no real problem, in hail she can be annoying, but killable.

 

[Darkvirus]

from what i have seen and played with froslass is still good outside of hail but not broken whereas due to the level of "hax" with snow cloak alongside Twave its broken and to add a STAB 120 base power move that never misses pushes froslass over the top without hail froslass is just a good mon

 

[Godsend]

from what i have seen and played with froslass is still good outside of hail but not broken whereas due to the level of "hax" with snow cloak alongside Twave its broken and to add a STAB 120 base power move that never misses pushes froslass over the top without hail froslass is just a good mon

+1

I've been using Lass outside of Hail, and it is pretty darn underwhelming. It's not a horrible poke by any means, but it isn't great at getting spikes on the field and also isn't great at keeping them there. I say ban Lass+Hail.

 

[FlareBlitz]

Banning Lass + Hail is not really an option as mentioned before. We need to keep the discussion focused on banning Snow Cloak v. Abomasnow.

I am not confident that hail as a playstyle is even remotely broken if it weren't for Snow Cloak. It's almost pathetically ease to remove their nidoqueen/slowbro/zapdos (especially when they have no lefties recovery) and then sweep the entire team with Cobalion or Scarfcross. The only times this has ever failed me is when Cobalion's Iron Head misses due to Snow Cloak (and not just froslass, has happened with mamoswine and glaceon too). So basically a well-formulated strategy for beating hail only works like 60% of the time because of Snow Cloak. That doesn't seem okay to me; it's far more haxy than a normal pokemon game. And it's also why hail teams are so successful on the ladder - it doesn't even matter if they're good or not, they can count on lucky wins almost half the time.

I think the fact that most hail discussions inevitably center around Froslass and not like, Rotom-F suggest who the real culprit is.

 

[PK Gaming]

Don't hold your breath guys, silly combo bans aren't happening.

 

[Banedon]

Banning Lass + Hail is not really an option as mentioned before. We need to keep the discussion focused on banning Snow Cloak v. Abomasnow.

Or banning Froslass, but without a combo ban here my choice is quite clear: a ban on Snow Cloak, and then we'll see afterwards if hail is still broken.

 

[Heysup]

I also just found out that Snow Cloak + Snow Warning isn't off the table since "it's simply enforcing Evasion Clause on evasion modifying abilities". I would support this option over any other option. For those of you who love the OU comparisons, this is basically the same logic as Drizzle + Swift Swim.

 

[jamashawalker]

I also just found out that Snow Cloak + Snow Warning isn't off the table since "it's simply enforcing Evasion Clause on evasion modifying abilities". I would support this option over any other option. For those of you who love the OU comparisons, this is basically the same logic as Drizzle + Swift Swim.

hahaha now you just opened a flood gate for everyone...

But has anyone played a hail team without frosslass/snow cloak abuser, its like hail was just castrated...specifically without frosslass the whole Hail playstyle is no where near as difficult..

And yeah this UU is turning out just like OU, a huge weather war between sand and hail, its pretty sad...lol which is why i added a random weather changer on my team which has been got me to the top 20 in a short amount of time

 

[FlareBlitz]

I also just found out that Snow Cloak + Snow Warning isn't off the table since "it's simply enforcing Evasion Clause on evasion modifying abilities". I would support this option over any other option. For those of you who love the OU comparisons, this is basically the same logic as Drizzle + Swift Swim.

Does this mean we can also do the same for other evasion-modifying abilities (sand veil/sand stream)? I'm asking because once Sandslash gets its DW ability and/or if hippo drops down sand is going to be an extremely dominant playstyle here, and Cacturne is as annoying as Froslass.

I would love to just have a blanket ban like "no weather-related evasion modifying abilities in a team that can create that weather".

 

[Heysup]

That principle should certainly be debated, I agree. But I think it's way more relevant to discuss if it actually gets out of hand. It's possible that the hail situation is actually a harder situation to combat but we'll see.

 

[SJCrew]

We can't just say "Snow Cloak/Hail is broken" and then pull Evasion clause out of our asses. Evasion clause is a universally applied rule blind to circumstance. It's not allowed on Luvdisc, so it shouldn't be allowed on Froslass, Sandslash, Gligar, or Cacturne. I'm only agreeing with this method if we go back and correct this aberration by clausing out all guilty parties.

 

[Godsend]

Honestly, does it really matter if Hail is castrated? Banning Swift Swim+Drizzle was a huge nerf to Rain, but it was the best thing for the meta. Hail will still be usable, just not as good and hax based which is what makes people want to rip their hair out.

 

[Heysup]

We can't just say "Snow Cloak/Hail is broken" and then pull Evasion clause out of our asses. Evasion clause is a universally applied rule blind to circumstance. It's not allowed on Luvdisc, so it shouldn't be allowed on Froslass, Sandslash, Gligar, or Cacturne. I'm only agreeing with this method if we go back and correct this aberration by clausing out all guilty parties.

Well obviously there is the key difference in which one aspect may be broken and one isn't.

There is room to debate this though, if we ban one ability like that does it make sense to ban the others just on principle? Not sure of the right answer here; it's definitely not clear one way or another. It probably depends on Jabba, again.

 

[JabbaTheGriffin]

Yeah if you're going to, as a voterpool, extend evasion clause to an ability combination, on principle it has to extend to all ability combinations that do the same thing. Evasion clause isn't about what's "broken," as evasion clause inherently assumes that evasion modifiers are detrimental to the game. It'd be like banning double team under evasion clause only on OU and UU Pokemon, but allowing RUs to use double team in OU because they're not broken when using it.

 

[Pocket]

Does this mean that Snow Warning + Snow Cloak / Sandstream + Sand Veil would also be banned on principle in other tiers, such as OU and Ubers, similarly to Moody?

 

[Heysup]

It would mean it's also banned in RU, I'm pretty sure. Clarification would be nice but I don't see why this has to get that hugely out of scope......

 

[devoninja]

Yeah if you're going to, as a voterpool, extend evasion clause to an ability combination, on principle it has to extend to all ability combinations that do the same thing. Evasion clause isn't about what's "broken," as evasion clause inherently assumes that evasion modifiers are detrimental to the game. It'd be like banning double team under evasion clause only on OU and UU Pokemon, but allowing RUs to use double team in OU because they're not broken when using it.

Let's do it.

I'd like to have a vote to add all abilities which serve solely to boost evasion (even circumstantially) to the evasion clause. They have no more place in competitive pokemon than double team does.