np: UU - Six Deadly Suspects

[Relictivity]

I'm beginning to question if you know what you're talking about at all.

Ah, you are forgetting the special defense boost.

Nidoqueen needs Earthquake to beat Raikou, Earth Power variants fail, see Camerupt for example.

Most Camerupt run Earth Power over Earthquake
Max Sp. Att. Camerupt Earth Power vs. +1 regular defense/hp raikou
42.99% - 51.09% if Raikou has leftovers, it can sub and beat it even if it lands on Stealth Rock.


Max Special Attack Raikou (without a boosting item) vs Max Special Defense Max HP Cradily not in a sandstorm.
42.55% - 50.53%

Cradily nonboosted Earthquake from Max Attack (which is impossible with Max Special Defense and HP, so giving Cradily an advantage) vs Reg HP, Reg Defense Raikou.
69.16% - 81.62% So Cradily will end up taking 3 hits and dying...


On Muck, I think I meant Switcheroo or something, there is some sort of item switching move.

Max Special Attack Raikou +1 vs Max Special Defense/Max HP Muk (note that Muk lacks a Recovery move and cannot learn Earthquake)
40.82% - 48.07%

Umbreon can Taunt it, that's true, but if Umbreon does not have protect, it's gonna be in for a rough stall battle... it has to break Raikou's sub while surviving 35.79% - 42.13% per turn. Wish is going to be necessary, and every time Taunt wears off, Raikou gets a free Calm Mind.

I think we've decided Lanturn/Ampharos don't make the cut.

Renember, you are switching IN these pokemon to Raikou, else Raikou has the possibility of getting a much higher boost. You cannot wait and "revenge kill".

@Eo Ut Mortus - Sub blocks Toxic.

 

[cim]

Regirock just sounds (and consistently has been, for me) "Good", not "Suspect". Saying "Twash used it well" is really completely meaningless.

(also why do people say "heavy fighting hitters are gone" when hariyama is right there and fixes 40% of the problems you might find in a metagame)

Hippopotas is as prominent as ever

When I face a Hippopotas I actually laugh out loud, and only once have I lost to a team carrying one. Wasting 1/6th of your team for half of a Light Screen for one type and a little extra damage is not terribly productive. Granted it can take a hit on the physical side, but generally there are much, much better Pokémon and he's far from "prominent".

Most Camerupt run Earth Power over Earthquake

I see this a lot around Smogon theorymon pages that something is broken because it's not beaten by the move something most commonly carries and honestly that's a load of shit to me. There is very little reason why Camerupt can't go -Speed and run Earthquake to beat Raikou here, so saying that the standard set made before his introduction doesn't beat it doesn't mean that it's not a feasible check. I can say Starmie isn't a Gyarados counter because ones that run enough attack to beat Garchomp can be OHKOed by EQ (and that was still most common after his banning!), but that doesn't make it not a way to handle Gyarados.

Reflectivity, you don't know what you are talking about. If it does 50% to you at +1, yes you can GET a Sub up, but it will break in one hit.

 

[umbarsc]

Most Camerupt run Earth Power over Earthquake

Which is irrelevant to this debate.

Max Special Attack Raikou (without a boosting item) vs Max Special Defense Max HP Cradily not in a sandstorm.
42.55% - 50.53%

With what move? HP Ice? Signal Beam? And this is unboosted, right?

On Muck, I think I meant Switcheroo or something, there is some sort of item switching move.

Nope.

I think we've decided Lanturn/Ampharos don't make the cut.

When and why?

@Eo Ut Mortus - Sub blocks Toxic.

Note that Ampharos can break its Subs with Seismic Toss, so it becomes a guessing game between Sub and Calm Mind, which gives Ampharos opportunity to poison it.


One big counter no one has mentioned is Raikou itself, which can easily take hits from opposing Raikou and force it out with Roar. Of course, since Raikou isn't its only counter, the overcentralization argument doesn't apply here.

 

[Relictivity]

Erm Chris, there are also some problems with Camerupt... because of the current metagame. The way Camerupt is most effeccient in today's metagame is in Trick Room. However, there are waters faster than it, and waters slower than it, commonplace throughout the metagame. You also have Azumarill which will force Camerupt out. Ultimately, is it really viable running Camerupt to force Raikou out?

I take it back about Raikou stalling it out though. Used TB calc, lol. Sorry. So Queen and Camerupt. However, as I just showed you, Camerupt is inviable, meaning you have to run Queen or Chansey or Regice (and HP Fire still hurts)

@ Umbarsc We cannot make it a req for everyone to run Raikou on their team, sorry :/. And that Calc was TB from Lefties Raikou.

Oh, and I am starting to think that Regice would not work either because Calm Mind will start blocking it. Does +6 HP Fire 3HKO regice (so it cannot sleep talk)?

 

[whistle]

+6 116 SpA Thunderbolt does a minimum of 63% to 252/0 Calm Regice.

 

[Winto]

Sorry, you just showed that Camerupt is not viable? With what, theorymon?

I used a Camerupt on a lot of my teams, so I can say from experience that support Camerupt is far from inviable. It does a good job in getting up Stealth Rock, and very few bulky waters like coming in on a Toxic or Lava Plume burn.

Regice can learn Seismic Toss. It can Psych Up the Calm Minds too if it wants.

Sorry dude, but people start calling your bullshit when you mention things like a Tricking Muk.

 

[umbarsc]

We cannot make it a req for everyone to run Raikou on their team, sorry :/

I so cleverly anticipated this response, which is why included:

Of course, since Raikou isn't its only counter, the overcentralization argument doesn't apply here.

And that Calc was TB from Lefties Raikou.

Everyone else got much different calcs. For max SpA Timid Leftovers Raikou using unboosted Thunderbolt against max HP/SpD Careful Cradily (no sandstorm), I got:

329 Atk vs 344 Def & 376 HP (95 Base Power): 49 - 58 (13.03% - 15.43%)

Here's Signal Beam:

329 Atk vs 344 Def & 376 HP (75 Base Power): 104 - 124 (27.66% - 32.98%)

Here's HP Ice:

329 Atk vs 344 Def & 376 HP (70 Base Power): 98 - 116 (26.06% - 30.85%)

+1 Signal Beam does 41.49% - 48.94% so I'm not sure where you got that calc.

 

[Relictivity]

Your running Timid. You need to run Modest and there needs to be a Calm Mind Boost. I don't think Raikou needs the Timid Speed... but I could be wrong.

As of know, the only pokemon that work are Nidoqueen, Camerupt, Chansey, and other Raikou if you want to include it, but that would just become a stall war.

Also, I think everyone else is not using Signal Beam on their calcs... but Raikou does learn it, so test it out anyways.

@ Winto

No, I just believe that Azumarill makes it very difficult to run Camerupt. Believe me, I've used in on a TR team before and it's really good. But then Slowbro or Azumarill come in, and that's it, you have to switch out. If Azu wasn't here though, I could definately see some prospect. Camerupt gets a plethora of good support moves such as Yawn and Lava Plume and can also predict a switch and use Eruption/Fire Blast. Didn't mean to insult you there if it was your favorite pokemon.

Regice can learn Seismic Toss... but what would be the use... it get's stalled out by other things then. If I were using Regice, I'd use Rest/Sleep Talk/Charge Beam/Ice Beam. But I suppose Seismic Toss would work :/.

About the Muk problem, I already recognized that Muk didn't learn it after I posted it. Don't worry about others insulting me, I make mistakes just like everyone else, and it's their job to get over it. But so far, nobody has "insulted" me. They've just pointed out that I was wrong.

 

[cim]

Erm Chris, there are also some problems with Camerupt... because of the current metagame. The way Camerupt is most effeccient in today's metagame is in Trick Room. However, there are waters faster than it, and waters slower than it, commonplace throughout the metagame. You also have Azumarill which will force Camerupt out. Ultimately, is it really viable running Camerupt to force Raikou out?

You're missing my point. You're still arguing "but this is the way I think the pokemon should be used and if you're using it in that manner it sucks", when I'm saying... ok just read my post again. A 252 HP / 252 whatever Camerupt defensive tank, for example, would accomplish largely the same feats as any other tank. It can even run WoW or Lava Plume to be valuable team support, or set up Rocks.

Everything else is covered by my man umbarsc.

 

[Stagnant]

@Whistle- Psych Up Regice eats Raikou alive.

@Everyone else- Ok, those pokes may deal with 1vs1 but who the hell is going to stay in especially with the Sub CalmMind variant Raikou. If I was in the situation I'd fire off an attack and switch out. Wait a few more turns and that so called "counter" is irrelevant. The only 2 true and viable checks are Chansey/ Regice and I suppose Regirock can do alright as well.

@Regirock in SS. He is good but not suspect good.

 

[Relictivity]

You're missing my point. You're still arguing "but this is the way I think the pokemon should be used and if you're using it in that manner it sucks", when I'm saying... ok just read my post again. A 252 HP / 252 whatever Camerupt defensive tank, for example, would accomplish largely the same feats as any other tank. It can even run WoW or Lava Plume to be valuable team support, or set up Rocks.

Everything else is covered by my man umbarsc.

No I'm saying, what else can this Camerupt do... we are not looking for a "specified counter" else that is what defines broken - the pokemon "easily" runs over the current metagame. Part of the reason I don't like OU much. I agree that Camerupt would do a good job at many things... but it fires off a Will-O-Wisp... to hit a Milotic or Slowbro. In other words, something that forces it out, and Camerupt does not get that many oppurtunities to set up. My point is, are you just designing it to counter Raikou solely or can you make it so it can do other things against the metagame, specifically with Bulky Waters. The other dangerous thing is that if Raikou, for some wacko reason decides to stay in and Calm Mind again, you lose. It's a guessing game, just like Ampharos. I suppose Toxic, but what if Raikou subs again?

Good point Exlamation about Regice. What other moves does it have?

 

[Stagnant]

I use... Psych Up - Rest - Charge Beam - Ice Beam Regice... If you werent being sarcastic >.>

 

[Relictivity]

I use... Psych Up - Rest - Charge Beam - Ice Beam Regice... If you werent being sarcastic >.>

No, I wasn't sarcastic. Trust me, you will be able to tell when I'm being sarcastic. (That's not sarcasm). That would work I guess... though sleeping for 2 turns is a real pain.

 

[umbarsc]

Your running Timid. You need to run Modest and there needs to be a Calm Mind Boost. I don't think Raikou needs the Timid Speed... but I could be wrong.

Well, against Modest Raikou, +1 Signal Beam does 45-53%, so it will KO on average. With HP Ice, though, the odds of a 2HKO become much less (42-50%), so Cradily will have a better shot at winning. +1 Thunderbolt isn't fazing Cradily at all.

Trust me, you will be able to tell when I'm being sarcastic. (That's not sarcasm).

And neither is that. Or that. Or that. Or that.

...Or that.

 

[Relictivity]

Well, against Modest Raikou, +1 Signal Beam does 45-53%, so it will KO on average. With HP Ice, though, the odds of a 2HKO become much less (42-50%), so Cradily will have a better shot at winning. +1 Thunderbolt isn't fazing Cradily at all.



And neither is that. Or that. Or that. Or that.

...Or that.

Yes and a Cradily Earthquake does not 1HKO, meaning it loses always, unfortuantely.

Eh don't know if that last comment was sarcastic (Oh, the coincidince). As for me, I'm not sarcatic very much... that's more like my brother, who makes WAY too many jokes.

 

[umbarsc]

Yes and a Cradily Earthquake does not 1HKO, meaning it loses always, unfortuantely.

But it always 2HKOs. Remember that Raikou boosts while Cradily switches in. So if Raikou doesn't manage to 2HKO, Cradily will win.

 

[Relictivity]

But it always 2HKOs. Remember that Raikou boosts while Cradily switches in. So if Raikou doesn't manage to 2HKO, Cradily will win.

A 50/50 chance. Is that reliable enough? Also, this is assuming it has Max Attack/Max HP/Max Special Defense, which is impossible. What can it affor to give up?

 

[Erazor]

To get off the Raikou topic, is anyone else feeling like 45 deviation is a bit too low? I'm on 62 at the moment, and I feel like i won't get to 45 anytime soon.

Maybe if the deviation was 55 or something... but that would require an increase in rating.

 

[Wyzra]

I just got to 45 deviation today. I only play on the weekends really and I still feel like I don't have enough experience with this metagame. I think a low deviation/low rating requirement is nice because it allows those who have really experienced the metagame to vote, and allows you to experiment towards an optimal team construction (with often suboptimal intermediate stages) for that metagame.

Don't worry, the month is still fresh. I'm sure 45 will be achievable by anybody who takes the process seriously.

 

[LoveDensity]

45 deviation is very achievable and it shows dedication/effort that one put in this ladder. If you play consistently, lets say 3-5 battles a day. Your deviation would definitely drop in a good manner. I still think the test will go on for a time that many people can get to 45 deviation.

 

[Erazor]

I just got to 45 deviation today. I only play on the weekends really and I still feel like I don't have enough experience with this metagame. I think a low deviation/low rating requirement is nice because it allows those who have really experienced the metagame to vote, and allows you to experiment towards an optimal team construction (with often suboptimal intermediate stages) for that metagame.

Don't worry, the month is still fresh. I'm sure 45 will be achievable by anybody who takes the process seriously.

45 deviation is very achievable and it shows dedication/effort that one put in this ladder. If you play consistently, lets say 3-5 battles a day. Your deviation would definitely drop in a good manner. I still think the test will go on for a time that many people can get to 45 deviation.

Ah, thanks for clearing that up.

 

[cim]

Deviation is achieved through a consistent effort with time. I prefer low deviation to high rating personally, but it has a problem in that if you get _better_, your deviation goes up. It's too bad we can't track number of matches, that would be much more useful.

 

[Heysup]

I actually found both of the requirements pretty easy to achieve, just play a couple matches per day if you dont want to play more.

On another note, i see my Blaziken set Everywhere, but for some reason, i still see some people using Slowbro (myself included...). I see a big rise in Milotic, and even the odd Slowking due to this set being everywhere, though this now opens the doors for SD or CB Blaziken.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

I actually found both of the requirements pretty easy to achieve, just play a couple matches per day if you dont want to play more.

On another note, i see my Blaziken set Everywhere, but for some reason, i still see some people using Slowbro (myself included...). I see a big rise in Milotic, and even the odd Slowking due to this set being everywhere, though this now opens the doors for SD or CB Blaziken.

Well I sure as hell hope Milotic doesn't gain too much popularity over Slowbro as that will make my Marowak less effective...

Anyway, if looking for a good mix Blaziken counter that isn't completely screwed by SR or Honchkrow, I swear by defensive Altaria. It has really pulled through for me recently, though I use a rather odd team-specific set.

 

[iLL]

Here's just some of my thoughts. I use an offensive-oriented team.

Sandstorm
Hippopotas usually starts it off. It'll take a few hits, set up Stealth Rock, and maybe do some damage. That's pretty much all it does. I did run into the "CroRock" set in sandstorm. It did make me worry, considering high Def and +1 SpD, but it only has Rock Slide. Certainly not suspect material, but still good. Its setup bait for something with resists.

Rain Dance
These just own me hard. The speed advantage from Swift Swimmers is just hard to contend with. Slowbro alone, or paralyze support doesn't completely remedy it.

Stall
"Pure" stall teams, especially built around Clefabe are hard to beat. I carry a Taunt Mismagius to counter some of stall. It seems against a stall team I'd have a better chance if I had more than one Pokemon with Taunt. Too bad I only carry one.

Shaymin
The only suspect I see currently. The combination of offensive power, speed, and bulk is just too good. I've been carrying a SubRoost Moltress to counter it. It's been working out alright, but it sucks when they switch to a bulky water or use Hidden Power [Electric]. I'm going to try a Psych Up Regice. It can help me with Shaymin, and other stat-uppers.

Suspects
I'd actually vote everything BL, except Abomasnow. I have reasons for each. I versed some Snover-lead Hail teams, but not enough to make a firm stand. I partially think Froslass made Hail "broken." Without it, you only really need to worry about StallRein. Abomasnow's typing gives it a lot of weaknesses, and Glaceon is slow. Also, Abomasnow can counter weather teams.

OU and UU
Just something that I've been pondering. The OU list is 49. Latias is now OU, there's the Rotom forms, and if Manaphy becomes OU it might give rise to Swift Swimmers, general Rain support, and Hail-counter usage...

It'll be interesting.