np: UU - Can't Touch This

[GMLW]

Chansey easily walls Raikou. Registeel walls Raikou. Steelix walls ~92% of Raikou. Umbreon walls Raikou. Cresselia walls Raikou. Specially defensive Hariyama is never 2HKOed by an unboosted Thunderbolt and 2HKOs back with Earthquake. Revenge killing it is actually easier than it sounds. Scarf Hitmonlee can survive a +1 Thunderbolt and KO back with Earthquake. Tons of Ground-types can survive an unboosted HP Ice/Grass/Water unless they have a 4x weakness and KO back with Earthquake. Aggron can survive an unboosted Thunderbolt and KO back with Head Smash.

 

[capefeather]

O and btw I wanted to raise a pretty noobish question, but it just got me wondering...What makes a poke OU now-a-days?

Same as before: usage. It may be that the UU cutoff is not high enough, but the cutoff is ultimately pretty arbitrary.

 

[jamashawalker]

Chansey easily walls Raikou. Registeel walls Raikou. Steelix walls ~92% of Raikou. Umbreon walls Raikou. Cresselia walls Raikou. Specially defensive Hariyama is never 2HKOed by an unboosted Thunderbolt and 2HKOs back with Earthquake. Revenge killing it is actually easier than it sounds. Scarf Hitmonlee can survive a +1 Thunderbolt and KO back with Earthquake. Tons of Ground-types can survive an unboosted HP Ice/Grass/Water unless they have a 4x weakness and KO back with Earthquake. Aggron can survive an unboosted Thunderbolt and KO back with Head Smash.

Chansey,registeel,and steelix i would like to call counters...everything else is just a meh check or just revenge killing...O and add specially defensive venasaur with EQ +synthesis as a counter...but Umbreon and Cresselia i would not like to consider counters unless cresselia runs CM of her own then it just turns into an all out stall between the two...All umbreon can do is break Raikou's sub with payback which it needs Attack EVs invested to do so and toxic stall with prediction, but if your not doing that then umbreon is set up bait like alot of other pokes..and you also have to take into consideration that raikou will be behind a sub when you say a poke can "KO back" . I completely agree with you on the HP of choice, lol without the right HP he is going to be walled by stopped by some sort of dual ground type

 

[Rolf]

Speaking of Umbreon, how many people until recently knew that Umbreon got Sucker Punch? I saw greenflies using it on shoddy and tested it myself - it is working absolutely amazing.

I run this, although EVs could be adjusted to your needs.

Umbreon@Leftovers
252 HP/252 Att/4 SpD - Adamant
~ Curse
~ Payback
~ Sucker Punch
~ Baton Pass/Yawn/Moonlight

When I feel I'm about to die or they go to a counter, I usually just pass the Curse boosts to Arcanine and XS the team to death.

 

[GMLW]

Raikou will not always be behind a sub. It subs while you switch, you break its sub as it Calm Minds or attacks. No more sub. I also forgot Dugtrio, who outspeeds and OHKOs Raikou.

That Umbreon set seems extremely gimmicky. But if you've used it and it works, then it works.

 

[HR.]

Raikou will not always be behind a sub. It subs while you switch, you break its sub as it Calm Minds or attacks. No more sub. I also forgot Dugtrio, who outspeeds and OHKOs Raikou.

That Umbreon set seems extremely gimmicky. But if you've used it and it works, then it works.

How is it extremely gimmicky? I think Moonlight or Wish would definitely be the superior option in the last slot, but I can attest to that set's effectiveness, as not a lot of people know Umbreon even has Sucker Punch. I know I didn't until recently lol.

 

[jamashawalker]

Raikou will not always be behind a sub. It subs while you switch, you break its sub as it Calm Minds or attacks. No more sub. I also forgot Dugtrio, who outspeeds and OHKOs Raikou.

That Umbreon set seems extremely gimmicky. But if you've used it and it works, then it works.

depends on who comes in and breaks the sub...will it be a poke that raikou can beat without a CM boost or will he need it to KO the poke with the Boost...Dugtrio of course is the best revenge killer to raikou without being behind a sub....

 

[Iluvtogekiss]

A curse set with a priority move is hardly extremely gimmicky, I mean Curse Muk is never seen without Shadow sneak, regardless of STAB or not, as was Bulk up Gallade. In OU Curse Mamoswine almost always uses Ice shard. Its also just handy for things like Scyther that will obviously outpace you and are still able to do nasty amounts of damage regardless of Curses, with Choiced uturns and Bug bites.

 

[A.P.]

It should be noted that with minor Sp.Def Investment, a full-health Dugtrio can come in and take down Raikou as it Subs.

 

[Rolf]

A curse set with a priority move is hardly extremely gimmicky, I mean Curse Muk is never seen without Shadow sneak, regardless of STAB or not, as was Bulk up Gallade. In OU Curse Mamoswine almost always uses Ice shard. Its also just handy for things like Scyther that will obviously outpace you and are still able to do nasty amounts of damage regardless of Curses, with Choiced uturns and Bug bites.

I agree. Priority is of utmost importance in UU.

I think you guys don't get the power of having STAB on an 80 base power priority move. STAB makes Umbreon's max attack adamant sucker punch just a wee bit stronger than Hitmonlee's. Remember that hitmonlee's defenses are pretty pitiful compared to Umbreon's also.

 

[PK Gaming]

RolfKip is a genious. I'm using Umbreon to GREAT success in UU. Especially with Sucker punch. If all else fails I love passing the curses to Hitmontop. Technipunch FTW.

 

[Thund91]

If people want a Curser with priority then i'd say give Lapras a try, especially since with Shell Armor it's immune to critical hits, and is pretty much almost impossible to OHKO. And on top of that it has a better offensive typing then Umbreon.

 

[HR.]

If people want a Curser with priority then i'd say give Lapras a try, especially since with Shell Armor it's immune to critical hits, and is pretty much almost impossible to OHKO. And on top of that it has a better offensive typing then Umbreon.

I've been using a Sub Dragon Dance Lapras set to relative success, though Curse sounds like fun too =P.

 

[GMLW]

I say it looks gimmicky because Umbreon has a pitiful base 65 Attack. It'll take a lot of Curses to get that to a respectable level.

It should be noted that with minor Sp.Def Investment, a full-health Dugtrio can come in and take down Raikou as it Subs.

To do that, it takes 44 Special Defense Evs, which is actually not so much seeing as Dugtrio only needs 216 Speed EVs if using Jolly. Unless it wants to tie with other Dugtrio, which shouldn't happen very often, Alakazam, who dies to Sucker Punch, and Sceptile, who utterly destroys Dugtrio anyway.

 

[HR.]

I say it looks gimmicky because Umbreon has a pitiful base 65 Attack. It'll take a lot of Curses to get that to a respectable level.

So you're saying Curse Umbreon is gimmicky, not Curse Sucker Punch Umbreon? The point isn't to be an immediate threat after one Curse, Umbreon packs one of the best special defenses, and with Curse, she becomes almost impossible to take down, all while boosting her mediocre attack stat to high levels.

 

[Thund91]

I've been using a Sub Dragon Dance Lapras set to relative success, though Curse sounds like fun too =P.

I used to use SubDD but now i'm trying Curse on a more slow paced team and it's very effective.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

I have experimented with a LO Dragon Dance Lapras with max Special Attack and Boltbeam before. Made for a great Milotic lure, with Thunderbolt often 2HKOing whilst they just Hazed or whatever before the 'WTF?!' moment hits them. Works quite nicely with RP Rhyperior, and whilst it doesn't last as long as other variants, it is still usually bulky enough to make a crucial surprise kill / cripple early in the game with enough health left to get 1-2 kills lategame. Lapras really is quite versatile offensively with its good stats and movepool.

Also, some people seem to keep overlooking the fact that Cresselia has access to Zen Headbutt, and it really is the move you should be using on a mono-attack defensive set, especially on Thunder Wave variants. Though it is likely that this will be a moot point soon as far as UU is concerned anyway.

 

[GMLW]

Wait, so the Lapras had Dragon Dance, Waterfall, Thunderbolt, and Ice Beam?

 

[Leman]

It should be noted that with minor Sp.Def Investment, a full-health Dugtrio can come in and take down Raikou as it Subs.

I run the 40 HP /252 Atk /216 Spd jolly spread, a +0 HP Ice from standard SubCm Raikou does 76.9% - 90.5%, meaning without Spikes, Dugtrio always beats SubCM Raikou if it switches in at full health. Offensive CMers can OHKO without a boost, so you have to be careful.

 

[PK Gaming]

Lonewolf I completely disagree with Curse Umbreon being gimmicky. It may be offensively weak, but it makes up for it by being rather bulky. It's ability allows statutesers to think twice too.

 

[Quaily]

I mentioned curse umbreon a few pages back. I've had good success with it, but I use payback+return on it because mono dark is a horrid coverage. The only time I wished I had sucker punch was when a shedinja criticaled me through 6 curses and I had no way to kill it after that. I've actually come out on top against other umbreons that run sucker punch as well- return has higher PP. As long as they don't have a sturdy phazer or stab fighting type umbreon can really sweep a lot of teams once it gets curses going. I run careful with mostly def evs.

 

[Rolf]

I say it looks gimmicky because Umbreon has a pitiful base 65 Attack. It'll take a lot of Curses to get that to a respectable level.

Like I said earlier, a max attack adamant Umbreon's Sucker Punch a little bit stronger (1%) than Hitmonlee's max attack adamant Sucker Punch. Umbreon's 200 attack ev's sassy Sucker Punch is a little bit stronger than Hitmontop max attack adamant Sucker Punch. Umbreon's minimum attack sassy Sucker Punch is pretty pitiful, being a small bit weaker than Jolly Dugtrio's Sucker Punch.

BUT remember that is all without a Curse!

 

[MagicMaster87]

Hmmm, I think I'm going to try out that Umbreon as well. Do those comparison include items such as LO on Hitmontop/lee?

 

[Ekanselttar]

Can the Nomination thread be used to propose a "damp rock clause"?

 

[Rolf]

Hmmm, I think I'm going to try out that Umbreon as well. Do those comparison include items such as LO on Hitmontop/lee?

No, that's my bad. Although after a curse its Sucker Punch rivals (is more powerful than) each of them with an LO boost.

I don't know who's in the tour, but I'm backing bluewind or tennisace or whistle if they're in.