np: UU - Can't Touch This

[reachzero]

<+LonelyNess> if you use "NP: Are we there yet" the first post must be solely "don't make me turn this tier test around, I'll do it!"

No, seriously, we have gone through four rounds of UU Suspect testing now, and we still aren't finished! As you may already have seen, the results of the fourth round of Suspect voting are now in.

Froslass and Raikou were voted UU, ACTUALLY NOT AUTO SUSPECTS SORRY FOR LEAVING THIS IN HERE!

Gallade was voted BL, and is banned permanently from UU on the basis of a second consecutive BL vote.

Honchkrow was voted BL by a supermajority of voters, and thus is banned permanently from UU without a need for a second vote.

We welcome (to one degree or another) Cresselia and Porygon-Z into UU! How is the metagame dealing with these new Pokemon?

Edit: by the way, I recommend that UU voters with particularly good essays post them in the discussion threads for the relevant Pokemon. You know who you are!

JabbaEdit: I commandeered the title to let you guys know the song cresselia has been singing since she was dropped down :P

This round ends February 20th. 1600/55 ratings requirement like always.

 

[Heysup]

[anger]Damn it we were so close to getting Froslass and Raikou out of here![/anger]

In all seriousness, this is bad news, but I don't mind the easy ladder wins.

I think stall will at least be effective now since Gallade and Honchkrow are gone (time to start using Blaziken again?!?!). I think Raikou, Swellow, Froslass, and Moltres will all dominate. Froslass...ugh.....

Once the Rock Blast glitch is fixed, maybe people will start realizing how deadly the sash variant is, even if it's less "broken" than the bulky variant (imo, obviously).

I also can't wait to try out Absol. Swords Dance, Megahorn, Superpower, Sucker Punch = yes please.

 

[Flamewheeler]

Eh, I can deal with raikou, but I prayed that froslass would leave. This is why I should've written my paragraphs, not that it would have made much of a difference xD.

 

[whistle]

what heysup said >:(

I think "people" should start looking at non-standard wallbreakers and sweepers; for instance, I'm having tons of success currently with a NP Toxicroak (it does extremely well against stall and offensive teams alike), and there are other Pokemon like DD Altaria (neutral coverage, Natural Cure, Roost) or Nidoking that can also trouble stall. Of course it's not like this isn't happening now -- I'm just saying that just because the "best" wallbreakers are leaving doesn't necessarily mean that stall will dominate.

Do you guys think Absol will step up to take Honchkrow's "place"? It did the last time Honchkrow was banned iirc (I didn't play that testing stage) but in the current metagame Insomnia and a Grass resistance are pretty important assets to Honchkrow that Absol doesn't have. It'll obviously get more popular since it's a good Pokemon but I don't think it will be as popular as Honchkrow was.

 

[Force Majeure]

I'm incredibly surprised at the results of the vote, not to say anything detrimental about the conclusions that were reached. I'm very surprised to see Gallade go, as I've never had too much trouble with it, although I rarely saw it on the ladder. My feelings toward Honchkrow are similar, but Honch is incredibly more difficult to play around and much more common.Honestly, I'm a tad upset that Froslass didn't get the boot as I find her exceptionally.... infuriating. I'm glad Raikou stayed.

I expect Venusaur usage to further rise although I never found Honchkrow or Gallade to be reliable counters to his rampages.

Here's looking forward to January!

 

[Smurf.]

Good to see honch out of here, but a little frustrated froslass wasnt voted out. However, looking forward to see who may come down to shake things up a bit. Hopefully NOT tentacruel, the last thing the metagame needs is another proponent of stall. Rather see something offensive to rattle FWG cores.

 

[Stagnant]

I also can't wait to try out Absol. Swords Dance, Megahorn, Superpower, Sucker Punch = yes please.

What exactly stopped you from trying this set last Meta-? Honchkrow and Gallade have virtually no influence on this particular set's effectiveness.

 

[Heysup]

what heysup said >:(

I think "people" should start looking at non-standard wallbreakers and sweepers; for instance, I'm having tons of success currently with a NP Toxicroak (it does extremely well against stall and offensive teams alike), and there are other Pokemon like DD Altaria (neutral coverage, Natural Cure, Roost) or Nidoking that can also trouble stall. Of course it's not like this isn't happening now -- I'm just saying that just because the "best" wallbreakers are leaving doesn't necessarily mean that stall will dominate.

I agree with this. Especially since, in my opinion the "best" wall breaker is still around (Blaziken). Without Crobat and Shaymin, Pokemon such as Magmortar, Blaziken, and Nidoking are all great "stall-counters". Not to mention, Spikes on offensive teams is incredibly viable now. Simply using Moltres or Swellow along with Froslass makes stall shake.

Do you guys think Absol will step up to take Honchkrow's "place"? It did the last time Honchkrow was banned iirc (I didn't play that testing stage) but in the current metagame Insomnia and a Grass resistance are pretty important assets to Honchkrow that Absol doesn't have. It'll obviously get more popular since it's a good Pokemon but I don't think it will be as popular as Honchkrow was.

My first thought was yes. However, I then realized "Oh, Absol doesn't even have a remotely threatening SpA stat, or Brave Bird". The more I think about it, the more I wonder why I even compared the two in the first place. Absol is an excellent Swords Dance sweeper. Honchkrow is a broken Wall breaker with great SpA, an 180 BP stab, immunity to EQ and Sleep, and neutrality to fighting. Honchkrow is broken, while Absol is not.

What exactly stopped you from trying this set last Meta-? Honchkrow and Gallade have virtually no influence on this particular set's effectiveness.

Why would I use Absol when I can use Honchkrow?

 

[Stagnant]

Because that particular Absol set would be used for (I assume) sweeping. Honchkrow's standard set by all means was not specifically intended for sweeping.

 

[Heysup]

Because that particular Absol set would be used for (I assume) sweeping. Honchkrow's standard set by all means was not specifically intended for sweeping.

Well...

SD Absol sweeps the same way Honchkrow sweeps. It just hits really hard and fights off revenge killers with Sucker Punch. They are both "wall breaking sweepers" in my book.

 

[Banedon]

A little surprised by the results of the vote myself - if I could vote I would've:

Vote Froslass UU
Vote Gallade UU
Vote Raikou BL
Abstain on Honchkrow

I don't really know about Froslass - all the Froslass's I've seen are leads, and they are leads that can be beaten. They might set up some layers of Spikes, but Spikes can be spun away, fail to affect flying / levitating Pokemon and aside from getting the Spikes up and spin blocking Froslass can't do much. Gallade is a different case. It simply lacks speed. 80 speed isn't anywhere near fast enough (personally I think Moltres' 90 speed isn't fast enough either). Possibly though my not having a problem with Gallade is because I usually have Uxie in my teams, which usually walls Gallade nicely.

I'm most surprised that Raikou stayed UU. Raikou is not only fast, it has high SpA, can use BoltBeam for coverage and is fairly bulky to boot, especially from the special side. It's destroyed by Dugtrio of course, but then Dugtrio is one Pokemon and lots of others fail to threaten Raikou. This is one Pokemon for which I want to see the reasons behind the vote.

... which means I'll go read the essays already posted now.

 

[Diesel]

Interesting results. I was anticipating all of them getting the boot, although I don't really think Froslass deserved to. Nevertheless, I too am unhappy that both of them stayed, although Froslass doesn't bother me half as much as Raikou. I think Froslass will probably get banned next time around, though, as both the banned suspects hampered it, offensive variants especially (which may be bigger threats now, although stall just got a whole lot stronger). I've got to say, it's pretty liberating to finally have Honchkrow gone.

@Heysup - The standard Cacturne set also fills that role very nicely, even without Sandstorm and Brightpowder. It's an absolute wrecking ball with dual STAB, and forces the opponent to play a guessing game with Sucker Punch, which can be exploited easily. If it gets a free sub up, chances are something is dying.

 

[FlareBlitz]

Anyway, regarding where the metagame will go now...the two greatest threats to stall have been eliminated, so expect a resurgence in stall teams, particularly hail-stall once people realize how easy it is to get spikes up with Froslass. Hell, I could even see Specs variants spamming Blizzard/Thunderbolt wrecking a lot of shit once Registeel is gone due to the only common Sucker Punchers being Toxicroak and possibly Absol after Honchie leaves. It gets a 20% chance of avoiding random unforeseen scarfers too, and the highest base speed of any ice type in the tier. We can also expect the Moltres and Swellow usage to continue to rise as the easy spikes net them kos against things that could wall them before (Regirock, Milotic, Slowking, etc), as well as an increase in Blaziken and Houndoom usage in response to stall's rise.

Regarding Absol, it will not be popular. Absol does not have Honchkrow's ability to instantly come in and cause severe damage, as its strongest move is either an UnSTAB'd fighting attack that drops its offense/defense or a bug attack with crappy coverage and semi-unreliable accuracy. The Swords Dancer will not be successful due to its low base speed, crucially missing the base 80 mark. Sucker Punch is easy to play around, especially when you don't have Insomnia to avoid Sleep Powder from Venu. There are just better Pokemon that can occupy your team slot than offensive Absol, and I say that as someone who's absolutely a fan of it. However, Absol does have an interesting niche: a Swords Dance baton passer. Due to Absol's ability to encourage non-damaging attacks (sucker punch) it can pull off a pass without worrying about its recipient getting smacked with something powerful. Way back in the Yanmega metagame I used to run a combination of Absol -> DD Dragonair and LO Arcanine (both of whom have Xspeed to sweep with the boosts from Swords Dance, and who can function without it just fine too) which worked pretty well.

All in all, the departure of some of the suspects will leave their old niches open to new Pokemon, and it'll be interesting to see how they're replaced, but besides that I don't expect I'll be too happy with this new metagame, as the biggest problem with it imo (Froslass/easy spikes) is still around. I hope Shoddy gets its NU ladder this month so I don't have to stick to Ubers when UU inevitably ends up annoying me.

 

[august]

[anger]Damn it we were so close to getting Froslass and Raikou out of here![/anger]

In all seriousness, this is bad news, but I don't mind the easy ladder wins.

I think stall will at least be effective now since Gallade and Honchkrow are gone (time to start using Blaziken again?!?!). I think Raikou, Swellow, Froslass, and Moltres will all dominate. Froslass...ugh.....

Once the Rock Blast glitch is fixed, maybe people will start realizing how deadly the sash variant is, even if it's less "broken" than the bulky variant (imo, obviously).

I also can't wait to try out Absol. Swords Dance, Megahorn, Superpower, Sucker Punch = yes please.

Just saying, stall has been viable this whole stage, infact once people figured out how to beat Honch and Gallade without much trouble, it gained the ability to continually dominate.

 

[IronBullet]

Ugh. Froslass should be outta here....looking back, I shouldve got my paragraphs done. How can people possibly think that it's anything but broken?
And under hail...just tears your hair out.

Stalls really received a buffer here by Honch and Gallade leaving. The mixed-offensive fire types of uu like Blaziken and Magmortar might see increased use. But that still won't stop Froslass fucking us around with triple spikes and Snow Cloak....grrr.

The problem with Absol is that it can't switch in as Honchkrow does as it doesn't have the useful resistances and immunities Honchkrow gets. Moreover, Honchkrow has a 120 BP STAB move with which to rip teams apart, whereas Absol gets only an unstabbed Superpower which can't be used for consistent sweeping, and another unstabbed Megahorn, neither of which provide the power needed to break walls

 

[Bluewind]

Ugh. Froslass should be outta here....looking back, I shouldve got my paragraphs done. How can people possibly think that it's anything but broken?
And under hail...just tears your hair out.

What you said =/.

I can see the number of Sleep Talk sets increasing with Honch's departure, especially Altaria and Arcanine, as they are solid answers to Venusaur.

Regarding stall, I think it had always been viable, but not dominant. In spite of that it still packed it's own deal of annoyance and could dismantle many teams that would forget about this playstyle. Definitely with the suspects gone Stall will see the sunlight again.

Regarding Wallbreakers, MixMortar is a great asset when breaking through stall.

 

[franky]

Just saying, stall has been viable this whole stage, infact once people figured out how to beat Honch and Gallade without much trouble, it gained the ability to continually dominate.

Backing this up. Most of the top ten people are running stall-based or semi-stall style of play. It was easily the best style of play in the previous metagame. Now it will be more effective. A couple of people will be tweaking their sets now since Gallade and Honchkrow are gone.

 

[Heysup]

Just saying, stall has been viable this whole stage, infact once people figured out how to beat Honch and Gallade without much trouble, it gained the ability to continually dominate.

I do believe stall was viable, but it definitely wasn't dominant or anything like that. Stall didn't figure out how to beat Gallade either, people just stopped using it because they were, for lack of a better word, bored of it. It actually makes sense, since everyone and their mother decided to run offense, and Gallade is nothing "special" versus offense, people just used other Pokemon (like Raikou, FWG cores, Raikou, Raikou, and Raikou).

On the other hand, if there was a way to beat Honchkrow or Gallade with out much trouble - for stall in particular - I don't think they would have been banned.

Stall was viable, but it was much better off in the previous metagames (namely Crobat's metagame). It definitely did not "dominate".

@ Franky: They were running hail stall....with Froslass. That is how they were winning more often than not -_- (and they aren't afraid to admit it iirc). Xiang, Burton, IPL, etc. They were all hail stall. Hail stall isn't even "that good" in my opinion, but it does dominate the ladder for obvious reasons.

 

[capefeather]

Honchkrow and Gallade, you will be missed. I feel that I didn't really give Froslass or Raikou much of a chance to shine, as it was hard to decide which possibly broken element to try to abuse. Honchkrow and Gallade just ended up working incredibly well together for me, whereas I had much less success with Raikou.

I think that some people are taking these tests way too seriously. What has happened has happened. Continuing to call things "obviously broken" after the result, and questioning the integrity of the voters, are just plain disrespectful to the system and to the voters who played the same metagame. Then again, maybe I'm taking these posts way too seriously <.< I just figured that I wouldn't have to deal with politics until the next election.

 

[SouL]

I cant believe people really voted froslass and raikou for uu... it's just obvious how the new uu teams will look like.. but maybe people will start abusing nidoking, blaziken and moltres ^__^
well.. let's see how they will do ..

 

[M BLADE]

Raikou for UU? What? That's the one i hate the most!

About Absol vs Honchrow: Absol has Swords Dance to compensate for no STAB 120 BP move. It also has a huge support movepool if you need to try something funny(like burning, say, Hitmontop switching in, or Baton Pass some boosts, or whatever).
Ok, it doesn't have the good resists of Honchrow. That is unfortunate.
It's almost like Salamence X Dragonite: one hits harder right off the bat, making it more dangerous. The other has a huge movepool, though it uses mostly the same moves on its sets.


Gallade gone means Hitmonlee "going back to life".

Froslass staying... no thoughts on that one. On Hail? Looks like bulky Gardevoir is going to be in my team very often.

And yes: "forgotten" pokes like Nidoking/Regirock will be put to a good use again.

 

[Stagnant]

I swear there was a thread for this but I couldn't find it...

Rain Dance Teams

They are the scum of UU. They are immensely powerful and take minimal skill to use. If you don't use the few select Pokemon to stall out the rain then you are SOL. Did I mention that you generally have to stall out ~6 turns of rain in order to even consider a chance at over throwing the team. ugh..

 

[M BLADE]

Just run a Gardevoir or something. Trace Swift Swim and proceed to Thunderbolt most of them to oblivion.
Or Jolly Kabutops.
And yes, there is a thread for it.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63880

 

[ToF]

Shoulda woulda coulda. If you guys really thought Froslass was BL material, you should have stopped being lazy and submitted your paragraphs. You must now live with the decision that Froslass is UU (temporarily anyway), so deal with it I guess. For the record I think Froslass is extremely annoying, but not even close to broken. And annoying doesn't equal broken, which is what I think the reason for voting Froslass BL is for a lot of you 'potential voters'.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Wow, would you believe it. On the same day that Gallade was declared permanently banned from UU, Cresselia enters!

Also, Spiritomb usage should rise even more with the arrival of Porygon-Z, but that's just me wildly speculating lol.