Metagame NP: RU Stage 16: Criminal (Honchkrow banned)

[Drangonn.]

I feel like Honchkrow should be suspected, not quickbanned. It hasn't been around long enough for people ot get a feel for it, and after all, that is kind of what a suspect is supposed to do, in my eyes. It's supposed to let people focus on that mon and think about its unique strengths and weaknesses. It is a stellar pokemon, of course, and should be thoroughly examined to judge if it is suspect worthy (which it is).

Anyway, onto the argument. I'm sure most will agree with me when I say Honchkrow needs to get the fuck out of the tier.

As fun as it may be to use, and as easy as it may be to steamroll teams with it, it's not healthy. If you don't have a dark resist faster than it, you get BB'd. There are so many 50/50's that are created that just bring the game down to guessing games and not a game of skill. For example, Fletch vs. 70% krow. Sucker or WIll-o? These 50/50's decide games often, and often games that are otherwise well-played just lead up to an inevitable 50/50. This significantly detracts from the skill level required to play the game, especially in a tier full of status users.

Also, its offensive stats are huge. That's self-explanatory. It also has great coverage options, which make it a premier wallbreaker as well.

Its speed tier is a blessing and a curse; the ability to trap many slow, fat Psychic-types such as Hoopa and Slowking is invaluable for teams, making it playable on balance, offense, and HO due to its utility.

All of these qualities; Powerful Priority, powerful moves, huge offensive stats, a decent speed tier, and fantastic coverage prove to be too much for the RU tier. This pokemon needs a check on every team. It's versatile and because of that, has no true counter. It should be suspected, 100%.

 

[Shephen912]

It should probably go through a suspect test.

I personally don't really think it is broken though. Life Orb + Brave Bird recoil add up pretty quickly on it not even factoring in potential Stealth Rocks. The Heat Wave variants though are pretty powerful and do limit you to like just Rhyperior as your only switch-in or just waiting for it to kill its self on recoil.

 

[ProfessorMasterChief]

I'm honestly not one hundred percent sure about Honchkrow. While it can absolutely murder everything in sight, I've found that I just sack it in quite a few matches, as it needs a good switch in, and is worn down due to its awful bulk, recoil, and stealth rock weakness. I lean more towards broken, but I think we should have a suspect test imo

 

[Take Azelfie]

I might as well degrade honchkrow the best I can since the trend of these discussions tends to just end up on repeat.

The first thing to note is that it gets worn down over time due to Life Orb and of course brave bird. Even some other outside factors like stealth rock, rocky helmet and status effects. Even the riding in popularity Garbodor severely hinders it for just being touched not to mention it can be used as a superpower pivot if played well to get more spikes or even straight out damage off. Basically this limits honchkrow from sweeping teams.

Offensive fighting types are great CHECKS to honchkrow being able to out speed and resist sucker punch. And putting an offensive fighting type onto a team isn't even demanding in fact usually added onto default builds any way since they can deal with bulky steel types and put on a lot of pressure already. So not bringing a honchkrow check on itself is a bit to blame on the builder.

Exploitable typing leaves it too be lured. While this isn't a major factor in degrading hobchkrow it can still be as plied. Babiri berry fairy types with the most notable being aromatisse can stomach one and return with a moonvlast. Psychics can run Sub + DGleam like Delphox and Melo. Heck even Rhyperior stands out since it can run chople berry to reduce Superpower.

But yh Honch is unhealthy AF and I would rather play in a pedo meta

 

[EonX]

MAFIA BURD!!!!

Honchkrow generally runs one of two sets, so I'm going to break those down separately before getting into the mon as a whole:

MurderKrow
Honchkrow @ Life Orb
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Brave Bird
- Super Power
- Pursuit / Steel Wing

So here it is, the main set Honchkrow runs, and for good reason. With only two semi-reliable switch-ins with Rhyperior and Diancie, this Honchkrow is capable of tearing into a lot of things. The biggest problem it faces is all the recoil damage it takes from Life Orb and Brave Bird, not to mention any other forms of damage from Rough Skin, Rocky Helmet, etc. Still, it usually gets 1-2 kills a match without a ton of effort once it gets in... More on that latter part later. On to the other set that I feel should be used.

MixKrow
Honchkrow @ Life Orb
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive / Rash Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Heat Wave
- Hidden Power Grass / Brave Bird / Hidden Power Steel
- Sucker Punch

Instead of using brute force to KO opponents like the physical set does, this Honchkrow preys on the fact that Fire-type coverage does a number on many of RU's common tanks. Dark Pulse gives Honchkrow the one thing it lacks on the physical set; a reliably powerful Dark-type STAB. Heat Wave KOes Mega Steelix after it switches into Dark Pulse while also doing nearly enough to Virizion on the switch to drop it into Sucker Punch range. The 3rd slot gives Honchkrow a way to beat up a common switch-in, or maintain a true power STAB. HP Grass just destroys Rhyperior, easily KOing after a Dark Pulse + Stealth Rock switch-in. Brave Bird maintains a powerful physical STAB move for Honchkrow to abuse Moxie boosts with if HP Grass isn't needed. Although generally easier to handle, HP Steel allows Honchkrow to blast past Diancie once it drops below 65%, or to just 2HKO it on a predicted switch-in. Sucker Punch fills the last slot so Honchkrow isn't as overwhelmed by faster teams. This Honchkrow should run a Naive nature most times since its form of priority is much weaker than the physical set's.

Ok, so Honchkrow is a great Pokemon with very few flaws. BUT, it does have one flaw that can be pretty annoying to deal with when using it; lack of switch-in opportunities. I alluded to this a little bit earlier, but Honchkrow has a very difficult time switching in unless it's off of a KO, slow Volt Switch / U-turn, or hard read on a Psychic or Ground move. The problem with Ground moves is that many users threaten Honchkrow with a secondary STAB or coverage move, and Psychic-types tend to have a secondary STAB or coverage move to deal tons of damage to Honchkrow with. And Honchkrow is much like Emboar in that it needs all the HP it can get in order to tank the recoil it takes from attacking. Does that make Honchkrow balanced in my mind? Absolutely not.

The problem I have with Honchkrow is not its power. Yeah, it's powerful for sure, but we have tons of mons with crazy power in RU. My problem comes with the fact it can very easily use moves that beat what you would typically switch into a Pokemon of its typing. Steel- and Rock-types are normally good options to check Flying- and Dark-type Pokemon. However, Superpower and Heat Wave (and Steel Wing / HP Steel in Diancie's case) are very easy to throw onto Honchkrow's main sets without losing any effectiveness, thus giving Honchkrow the ability to beat it's own checks without relying on team support to get past them. The lone exception is really Alomomola if only because it makes Honchkrow suicide itself in order to KO it. But even then, Mola is usually relied upon to take on multiple threats, so the trade is often very much worth it for the Honchkrow user. To make matters worse, all the Rock- and Steel-type Pokemon that want to take on Honchkrow lack reliable recovery of any kind and are also usually needed to take on other major threats like Tyrantrum, Houndoom, and Meloetta. So it just ends up putting an insane amount of pressure on defensive backbones when Honchkrow is used with stuff like Tyrantrum, Meloetta, and Braviary considering Rock- and Steel-types are also going to want to take hits from them as well.

Outside of Alomomola, there is no guaranteed way to beat Honchkrow because of the coverage moves it can carry. Mega Steelix can stand up to the physical set after Superpower drops, but it's easily lured in and KOed by the mixed set. The physical set can choose whether fast Psychic-types put it in an unfavorable spot or if Diancie holds it back. The mixed set literally chooses what counters it based on what the 3rd slot is: Diancie, Rhyperior, or fat Fighting-types. Knowing the type of set it's running simply isn't good enough. You have to know what options Honchkrow is choosing to use in order to know what you need to save for it. And simply put, Moxie means you just don't have that time. You have to guess based on the makeup of the team it's on and hope that you're right. If you are, Honchkrow won't be able to do much. But if you happen to guess wrong, you may as well just click X. Unpredictability, amazing ability, multiple sets, and the ability to beat its own checks (should it choose to!) is just too much for the tier to handle imo. Quickban-worthy? Maybe. But definitely suspect worthy.

 

[Miyami~~]

View attachment 61784
"Insolence? We are Pirates! We don't even know what that word means! Open fire!" - Hondo Ohnaka
Whenever I see Honchkrow I think of the space pirate from Star Wars, The Clone Wars.

Hondo (Honchkrow) @ Life Orb
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Brave Bird
- Superpower
- Heat Wave / Roost

So I ended up playing some games with Drapionswing where I would try to use Honchkrow to sweep his various teams. Ultimately, in five games I managed to knock out at least half his team... once. After I SD Passed to it with Mawile. From my games, I can conclude that Honchkrow is fearsome to any team once it gets a few attack boosts, but it has trouble successfully starting to sweep. I can find a few reasons for this:

1) Honchkrow doesn't have quite the power to OHKO certain threats at full, and needs prior damage at +0.
2) Honckrow's speed tier sits in the overcrowded base 70-80 realm, meaning it often has to click Sucker Punch to score a KO.

Both of these are unfortunate flaws with Honchkrow, which, combined with being worn down by Brave Bird / Life Orb limits Honchkrow's overall survivability. Because of these, I don't think it's broken or worth suspecting yet.

EDIT: Have a replay http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-370200494
And a Pastebin: http://pastebin.com/AtmEKhkq

Despite all of this, all of the flaws I listed on this thing are true and do stop Honchkrow from starting a sweep... sometimes. Half the time it wrecks my opponent's entire team, the other half of the time they switch in megalix and I'm forced to switch out. Honchkrow, fitting for a mafia bird, forces you to gamble. Do you predict their switch and click Pursuit and go from there? Or do you predict their attack and click Sucker Punch? If you guess right, you essentially win the game. If not, well then I hope you have another wincon in the back because Honch most likely took SR damage switching in and now has to switch out.

Anything that turns the game into a game of chance and not a game of skill Should be banned in my eyes.

 

[Drangonn.]

It should probably go through a suspect test.

I personally don't really think it is broken though. Life Orb + Brave Bird recoil add up pretty quickly on it not even factoring in potential Stealth Rocks. The Heat Wave variants though are pretty powerful and do limit you to like just Rhyperior as your only switch-in or just waiting for it to kill its self on recoil.

BB recoil is not a valid reason. Period. After +1, BB is only really needed to plow through slower and bulkier threats. After this, against offense, Sucker Punch can just win the game. Also, as I said in my post, Honchkrow's coverage is near limitless. Rhyperior has a chance to be OHKO'd after a spike and +1:

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Superpower vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 326-384 (75.2 - 88.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

This is an incredible feat, which just further proves how insanely difficult it is to switch into. Also about recoil: this is about as reliable as relying on Life Orb recoil to kill a Sharpedo. Also, trying to switch out on Honchkrow? have fun eating a Pursuit.

I'm going to liken Honchkrow to Sharpedo. It was frail, powerful, and notorious for desttroying a certain playstyle. This is exactly what Honchkrow is. It forces so many 50/50s and hard choices that it must be banned.

 

[atomicllamas]

Honchkrow was quick banned unanimously by the RU council. Tagging The Immortal (thanks in advance :D!).

voting members

spirit
sweep
meru
49
atomicllamas
molk
scythe.

reasoning (s/o spirit for writing this)

Honchkrow was banned for its ability to harry offensive teams with Moxie-boosted Sucker Punches, while having the power and coverage options to rip through many defensive cores. Honchkrow was also capable of running Pursuit so that it can pick off weakened foes and interfere with the opposing team's attempts to stop it from getting a Moxie boost. Furthermore, Honchkrow's various coverage moves meant that only heavily physically bulky Alomomola or Rhyperior could switch in and reliably check it, while other defensive checks, such as Diancie, Registeel, and Mawile, were at the mercy of whichever coverage moves it chose to run, whereas offensive checks, primarily faster Sucker Punch resists, were incapable of stomaching a Brave Bird. Honchkrow's incredible power and Moxie also imposed an unhealthy amount of mind games with Sucker Punch / Pursuit / Brave Bird, turning many matches into guessing games due to the reward for the Honchkrow user being so immense if they guessed correctly.

Also just @ the general posts in this thread, those that provided in depth thoughts tended to be pro suspect test and then eventual ban, I voted ban in this test, because in addition to finding Honchkrow broken (not unhealthy, straight up broken), it was pretty clear that there was very little chance that it would stay in the tier if suspected, this speeds the process towards making RU a healthy tier. As for my own personal thoughts, the support Honchkrow provided to offensive teams (especially those which utilize Virizion alongside it), by wallbreaking anything that doesn't resist Flying (ie poisons that wall Virizion) while also performing extremely well against offense because of an incredibly hard hitting sucker punch, was simply too much. It requires minimal support with a simple set of BB, Superpower, Sucker and Pursuit to win games, (steel wing is bad, Dugtrio can trap and remove Diancie while also adding the additional support of removing Virizion).

So yeah, Honchkrow = bye-bye, feel free to continue discussing the meta game in this thread until the next NP thread is posted :).

 

[Mega-Pokebattlerz]

Whoa, didn't see that coming. (jk I totally saw that coming)

Now that Honchkrow is gone, let's seewhat threats have gotten better or worse with Quagsire and Amoonguss gone.

- One less Grass-type in the tier means Rhyperior and Seismitoad have one less counter.
- Aerodactyl no longer has to worry about Stun Spore. Thank god!
- With the only viable Unaware user gone (fuck you Bibarel), setup sweepers are even stronger than before. Virizion and Malamar are pretty damn good now, and Swords Dance Absol should be better as well.
- RIP Stall (jk we still have Mola and Tangrowth).
- Sleep Talk is only viable on Pokemon that carry Rest now.
- With the departure of one of their own and one less easy target, Grass-types have taken a hit.
- For god's sake, stop using Typhlosion.

 

[feen]

Alright so the Honchkrow meta was almost the same as the current one, except one less broken Pokemon. Rhyperior will be seen having a bit less usage now, as it could check Honchkrow. Mega Steelix wasn't seen too much in the Honchkrow meta because Honchkrow could beat it, so we're back to the stale Mega Steelix metagame again.
Alomomola's usage will be the same however, considering how good it is right now, especially when paired with Mega Steelix or Registeel. There are still a lot of threats in the tier and having the ability to blanket check a majority of them makes Alomomola an excellent Pokemon to use in balance builds (which is one of the best playstyles).
I want to expand on Mega Steelix, before Honchkrow dropped, RU was very centralised around this Pokemon. I mean it's fine if a Pokemon is centralised, but if it's on around 25% of the teams and can actually wear its checks down by Toxic or hitting hard with EQ (especially because the Pokemon which can take Toxic lacks reliable recovery). I really think the tier is "not fun" without Mega Steelix, and it is not benefitting the tier in any way. An overly centralised metagame isn't an ideal one.

 

[Drangonn.]

I honestly don't know why people want to suspect Mega Steelix. It's influential and a fanatastic mon, but does not deserve a suspect test. It falls to a large number of common threats, such as Slowking and Seismitoad. It lacks reliable recovery outside of the rare RestTalk sets, on which pressure can be applied through the use of either a bulky water or a setup sweeper. Just because it is centralizing does not mean it is a bad influence. Yes, not preparing for it causes headaches, but the same applies to many other pokemon. It should by no means be suspected, and if it were to be, I would 100% vote to not ban Mega Steelix.

 

[TheWall]

Time to write my thoughts on mega Steelix on the internet. To be honest I am not sure if i want Mega Steelix banned or not. I mean yes its overcentralized, 25% usage is way too much for a pokemon. But, to add on what Dragonn said, eventhough its overcentralized, there are still lots of pokemon in the tier who can deal with Mega Steelix and those arent just bulky Water types. Fighting types, Fire types (yes I know they can't switch in but they can deal with mega Steelix), some Grass types and even the likes of Weezing can handle Mega Steelix pretty well.
Aside from that Mega Steelix has enough checks, it would still be interesting to see how a suspect test with mega steelix banned from the tier would affect RU in its entirety

 

[DTC]

You have to evaluate Mega Steelix in a different way from offensive suspects. Yeah, it applies a decent amount of offensive pressure, but it also happens to check/counter so many Pokemon at the same time.

Mega Steelix is also very constraining on offense. Ever wondered why RU is mostly bulkier teams? That's because in many cases you are forced to use a bulky Water-type in order to deal with Steelix, and if you're forced to go into a bulky Water-type, that can be an easy double switch to a Pokemon like Venusaur/Virizion who can also apply a lot of pressure on offensive teams if they get a free switchin, so then you have to put a good answer to those Pokemon on the team. I feel as if offense is very hard to build in this tier. Choice Scarf Tyrantrum also contributes to this issue, but I feel Mega Steelix does a lot as well. It's really hard to make an offensive team with otherwise good Pokemon for those teams such as Mesprit, Garbodor, and Aerodactyl because they're free switchins for Mega Steelix. This is made even worse by the fact that Mega Steelix is bulky enough that it can actually switch in multiple times, so it's not like you can just sacrifice a Pokemon and then be done with it like some other offensive threats, also most of these offensive threats can't switch in multiple times into various otherwise good offensive Pokemon lol.

Mega Steelix also makes things like Meloetta and Venusaur harder to deal with as Pokemon like Escavalier and Garbodor are harder to use effectively, and also makes Fighting-types more dangerous as it's harder to justify using fairies like Granbull and Togetic when Mega Steelix can switch in to them so easily to them and apply pressure.

I have a lot more thoughts on this subject but I'll save them for later. However, basically I think the metagame is really warped around Mega Steelix and it's limiting diversity in both playstyle and the Pokemon you can use. I think it's definitely worth evaluating a Mega Steelix-less metagame. Mega Steelix isn't a problem because no one is preparing for it; it's a problem because you HAVE to overprepare for such a metagame defining threat and this leads you to being pigeonholed into the same playstyles and cores.

 

[tehy]

Let me just post my counter-argument; yeah, it's annoying to have to go into Blastoise, it's tough to switch into Steelix.

But the thing a lot of people miss is that, against these kinds of teams, it's often tough to switch in Steelix. Steelix's big issue is that most offensive things in the tier, including the things it is often forced to check or even used to check, can hit it for at least 33%, which means it's no longer a switch-in if it's hit just once. Thus, with good lures, you often only have to switch in once and you can usually have a good switch-in to both STABs; after that, Steelix is going to struggle to come in in order to deal damage, and is at best a hard to switch into revenge killer, which isn't offense used to that? And honestly, if you do have a bulky water, it often struggles to create much momentum, to the point where it can eventually get worn down and taken out.

Bottom line; I just don't think M-lix reaches the level of 'broken'. If M-lix is so constraining on offense, can't I then complain about Exploud's constraint on stall? I can't just lure that thing because it'll choose when to switch in. Same goes for, say, Abomasnow. I actually wouldn't mind a suspect on those things (they also do nice damage to balance on occasion, arguably as good against it as Mlix since balance can just carry a strong revenger and a bulky water). I do see the argument for centralization as well, but at the same time, things that handle Steelix are already pretty ubiquitous and good, every bulky spinner in the tier for example, Alomomola the A+ rank and seismitoad + slowking the A ranks. The great part is that even with Toxic, it takes some time to break through any of these, which Steelix may not have if you pressure it well.

 

[Miyami~~]

Mega Steelix is, without a doubt, the best thing in the tier. However, it's not broken. The reason is yes, it can check almost anything that doesn't have a way to hit if for SE damage and has Decent offensive presence. But it doesn't have reliable recovery, meaning that it gets worn down unless you switch out to something like Mola (which it admittedly pairs stupidly well with). And in general, Steelix can be broken. It's just really hard to break it unless you have Focus Blast or Earth Power. And while Steelix does invalidate certain Pokémon, it also holds back some of the more dominant things in the tier that could and would otherwise run rampant, and the Pokémon it invalidates are invalidated by Registeel or Mawile. While Steelix is capable of stopping offence in its tracks, Stall also heavily relies on Steelix to check things because it walls a decent portion of the tier. The fact that it's on 25% of teams nowadays means that Steelix is RU's go-to wall for a good reason. It has the highest Physical defence in the tier while still being reasonably specially bulky and powerful, making it the perfect wall. Even without the fact that it isn't broken and can be beaten, I'd vote no ban because of how many teams need it to be viable.

tl;dr Steelix can wall a large chunk of the tier, but is beaten by a lot of common threats like Slowking, Sigilyph (heat wave), and Virizion (After an SD).

 

[eren]

the primary reason it would be suspected is as a defensive threat, yet i still don't think it's enough. yes, lix is used a lot, but it's because it compresses many roles into one. it lays rocks, it checks ice types, checks birds, etc. however, if i don't need this compression, i usually find myself going regi, rhyp, diancie, seis, etc as they at least have that 6 percent to recover each turn while lix is just so pressured by spikes and relies on wish support much more than the others if it wants to check stuff consistently multiple times throughout a match. i personally, if suspecting lix (i don't feel it's suspect worthy at all), would be to wait a little since apparently people just discovered registeel and that mon is seeing a huge surgence in popularity, even used over lix on many teams. lix doesn't make this tier any less fun lol. you mention that lix checks lack reliable recovery: mola, tangrowth can reliably check it and have regen. also lix lacks reliable recovery as well. also, you mention 25% of teams utilize lix, but you fail to mention how 23% last month utilized flygon

i would generally agree with tehy on this, which is pretty new (cat). also dragonn., poliwrath didn't rise only because of pedo. role compression was the main reason for its huge boost although ant and wrath leaving hurt its viability. also, steelix doesn't really wall anything, it hard checks. take glalie for example. you almost always have spikes on glalie teams, and d-edge does 35~ to lix, so after 3 spikes, lix could be 2hkoed and can't even switch in. same goes for other stuff like jolteon. finally, to those saying "lix loses to common threats". that doesn't make a mon less broken. for this case, i don't think lix is broken i just think that argument is so bad and i wanted to try to clear up what i think are misconceptions at the moment.

meh i hate posting about this kind of stuff

 

[Mega-Pokebattlerz]

Okay, can we let the meta settle down for one fucking minute before asking for a suspect? Honchkrow literally got banned less than 16 hours ago, at least give RU time to recover before asking for another suspect.

 

[atomicllamas]

Okay, can we let the meta settle down for one fucking minute before asking for a suspect? Honchkrow literally got banned less than 16 hours ago, at least give RU time to recover before asking for another suspect.

This is almost the exact same meta as we had for the entire month between Durant ban and Honchkrow drop. We lost Quagsire (literally 100% irrelevant) and Amoonguss (not meta game defining whatsoever, not especially good or common at high levels of play). I'll probs post my own thoughts on m lix later, but this post makes no sense considering Honchkrow meta was essentially just a week long break from the same meta to mess around with something broken.

 

[Drangonn.]

I guess I didn't make myself clear, then. Just because Steelix does really well versus offense does not mean it is suspect-worthy. I understand that there are other reasons, but this seems to be the main one.

Now, DTC said that Mega Steelix is the main reason people run Bulky Offense (correct me if I interpreted that wrong). I, with all due respect, do not agree. BO or balance is a very solid playstyle even in a meta without M-lix. Take a common Lix switch-in, Alomomola. Now, say my opponent decides to pull a double into, say, Venusaur. Now, let's say I switch into my Venusaur counter, Registeel. Venusaur can only touch me with Sleep Powder, right? So I get put to sleep, and he decides to go into Steelix. I go out to Mola, and the cycle continues. At some point, this cycle is going to stop; whether it be by my registeel waking up, or me using heal bell. But that's not the only situation in which Steelix is forced out. Seismitoad, Camerupt, Virizion, Slowking, Alomomola, the list goes on. Using one of these pokemon on your team is not called being pigeonholed into a playstyle; it's called using a good pokemon. People are not forced to use the listed pokemon because of Mega Steelix, although it is a very compelling reason to do so; they are generally very good pokemon in the tier, and have other merits.

Something else that I feel many people are understating is its lack of reliable recovery. This makes it oh so prone to being worn down by attacks such as Meloetta's Choice Specs Psychic, Exploud's Boomburst, and Accelgor's Bug Buzz. This prevents it from maintaining its defensive prowess for long, and makes conservative play of the utmost importance. However, for many teams, Mega Steelix is an immediate switch-in, and this contradicts how it must be played conservatively to check what it must. I will say that better players tend to be more aware, but many teams only have Mega Steelix as a response to these threats.

Also, because of how Mega Steelix wants to check all of these pokemon, it can easily be taken advantage of by use of U-turn, coverage options, or double switches. Also, you don't need to overprepare for Mega Steelix; all it requires, really, is running a bulky water on balance, a strong RKer and/or strong wallbreaker, like scarfcham and Banded Braviary, on offense, and again, a bulky water on stall, which most people run on stall already (in addition to Big Pumpkin).

The oppurtunity cost of using any of these pokemon on any of these play styles is relatively small; Scarfcham, Banded Braviary, and most bulky waters are very good in the tier, and fit excellently on teams of certain playstyles. All of them can take care of Megalix (to an extent). Yes, Megalix puts immense pressure on teams, but almost all teams are prepared for it. Yes, it can be EXTREMELY difficult to switch into it, especially on offense, but again, offense will run stuff like LO flygon and specs meloetta to help deal with it.

Something else, that tehy mentioned in his post, is how Mega Steelix has ways to wear down its counters. Yes, Toxic is a great move on it, but when pressured correctly, Steelix is still forced out and forced to take lots of damage if pressured correctly, as tehy said.

And finally, (I think), the pokemon that counter mega steelix don't just fit on one playstyle. They fit on many different playstyles, ranging from full stall (Alomomola), balance or BO, (Blastoise), and all-out offense (LO Hitmonlee, though it's more of a check than anything.)

If you feel I didn't clarify anything enough, please tell me.

 

[EonX]

Guess I'll throw in my two cents worth.

So, Mega Steelix is a fantastic Pokemon. Nobody will argue that I trust. Steel / Ground is a very good defensive typing and it isn't the easiest thing in the world to deal with defensively either. Base 125 Attack is incredibly high for a Pokemon designed to be a tank and it has two high BP STAB moves in Heavy Slam and EQ. Perhaps the biggest issue of all is that it checks / counters so many Pokemon while still being a strong threat offensively. Sure, it checks stuff like Tyrantrum and Psychics, but it's one of the very few that poses an immediate threat as well. Other such Pokemon like Registeel and Rhyperior either lack the offensive presence or have more crippling weaknesses. Next up we have its Defense. Base 230. That's the equivalent of Shuckle. Difference is that Mega Steelix actually has an HP stat worth writing home about. Just with max HP, it can tank some extremely powerful physical attacks and respond with a KO or significant damage. It might like Wish support, but it happens to have fantastic synergy with the best Wish user in the tier and provides a great fallback option for numerous offensive Pokemon. Sure, you're not going to build your team around Mega Steelix like you would most other potential suspects in the past (Durant, Moltres, Pangoro, etc.) However, it is incredibly easy to just slap on a team because of how much it provides a team. If you want to argue that, simply look at the fact that it's on 31.5% of teams on the higher ladder.

I'm sure some of you are going to ask "But Eon, Flygon is on 29% of teams. Why shouldn't it be considered for a suspect test?" There's some very key differences between Flygon and Mega Steelix. The biggest one is that Flygon has multiple sets that result in its usage (Scarf, Band, Offensive Defog, Defog support) that allows it to work on many different teams. Mega Steelix? Largely a single set of Rocks Heavy Slam EQ Toxic / Roar. One set. That's basically it. Base 125 Attack also means it can hit pretty dang hard without a lot of investment (most sets run 96 Adamant at max) Flygon? Usually needs maximum investment and / or boosting item to threaten neutral targets. Mega Steelix can easily take some hits with max HP and minimal SpDef investment. Flygon? Needs heavy investment to reliably take hits. And that leads me to my final point. That one set Mega Steelix generally runs can be tailored with EVs based on what your team needs. Need more offensive firepower? Just drop some SpDef EVs. Need it to check more stuff for more defensive teams? Just drop some Speed and Attack EVs for Special Defense. Need to outspeed more defensive Pokemon? Just drop Special Defense EVs and you're fine. There's more to Mega Steelix than just the typing, moveset, and stats. It's the state of the meta, EV spreads, and the fact that the meta is well prepared for Mega Steelix and it STILL is as good as it is. It's not that Mega Steelix is hard to prepare for. It's that you can prepare for it and it still be an issue for you to deal with. "But Eon, plenty of Pokemon are like that. Why single out Mega Steelix?" Problem is that other Pokemon are like that. However, they have to use totally different sets for them to do that. Mega Steelix could have more offensive firepower to push past something you think can take the hit. Or, it could outspeed something you're fully expecting to outspeed it with. Or perhaps worse, you can't quite push past it with a move you thought should KO it because it's using more bulk than you thought. Keep in mind all of these changes with the same core set of Rocks Heavy Slam EQ and Toxic / Roar. It's almost like Mega Steelix just tells us "here's my set. Beat it." It's just crazy good, but not explicitly like typical suspect candidates are.

 

[Drangonn.]

Guess I'll throw in my two cents worth.

So, Mega Steelix is a fantastic Pokemon. Nobody will argue that I trust. Steel / Ground is a very good defensive typing and it isn't the easiest thing in the world to deal with defensively either. Base 125 Attack is incredibly high for a Pokemon designed to be a tank and it has two high BP STAB moves in Heavy Slam and EQ. Perhaps the biggest issue of all is that it checks / counters so many Pokemon while still being a strong threat offensively. Sure, it checks stuff like Tyrantrum and Psychics, but it's one of the very few that poses an immediate threat as well. Other such Pokemon like Registeel and Rhyperior either lack the offensive presence or have more crippling weaknesses. Next up we have its Defense. Base 230. That's the equivalent of Shuckle. Difference is that Mega Steelix actually has an HP stat worth writing home about. Just with max HP, it can tank some extremely powerful physical attacks and respond with a KO or significant damage. It might like Wish support, but it happens to have fantastic synergy with the best Wish user in the tier and provides a great fallback option for numerous offensive Pokemon. Sure, you're not going to build your team around Mega Steelix like you would most other potential suspects in the past (Durant, Moltres, Pangoro, etc.) However, it is incredibly easy to just slap on a team because of how much it provides a team. If you want to argue that, simply look at the fact that it's on 31.5% of teams on the higher ladder.

I'm sure some of you are going to ask "But Eon, Flygon is on 29% of teams. Why shouldn't it be considered for a suspect test?" There's some very key differences between Flygon and Mega Steelix. The biggest one is that Flygon has multiple sets that result in its usage (Scarf, Band, Offensive Defog, Defog support) that allows it to work on many different teams. Mega Steelix? Largely a single set of Rocks Heavy Slam EQ Toxic / Roar. One set. That's basically it. Base 125 Attack also means it can hit pretty dang hard without a lot of investment (most sets run 96 Adamant at max) Flygon? Usually needs maximum investment and / or boosting item to threaten neutral targets. Mega Steelix can easily take some hits with max HP and minimal SpDef investment. Flygon? Needs heavy investment to reliably take hits. And that leads me to my final point. That one set Mega Steelix generally runs can be tailored with EVs based on what your team needs. Need more offensive firepower? Just drop some SpDef EVs. Need it to check more stuff for more defensive teams? Just drop some Speed and Attack EVs for Special Defense. Need to outspeed more defensive Pokemon? Just drop Special Defense EVs and you're fine. There's more to Mega Steelix than just the typing, moveset, and stats. It's the state of the meta, EV spreads, and the fact that the meta is well prepared for Mega Steelix and it STILL is as good as it is. It's not that Mega Steelix is hard to prepare for. It's that you can prepare for it and it still be an issue for you to deal with. "But Eon, plenty of Pokemon are like that. Why single out Mega Steelix?" Problem is that other Pokemon are like that. However, they have to use totally different sets for them to do that. Mega Steelix could have more offensive firepower to push past something you think can take the hit. Or, it could outspeed something you're fully expecting to outspeed it with. Or perhaps worse, you can't quite push past it with a move you thought should KO it because it's using more bulk than you thought. Keep in mind all of these changes with the same core set of Rocks Heavy Slam EQ and Toxic / Roar. It's almost like Mega Steelix just tells us "here's my set. Beat it." It's just crazy good, but not explicitly like typical suspect candidates are.

I'm not going to dispute anything you said. Yes, Megalix is very adaptable to the metagame, and is capable of stretching itself to meet certain team needs. However, as the EVs change, so do the counters. For example, with a specially defensive spread of 252 HP / 172 SpD / 84 Spe, and a careful nature, yes, that meloetta is going to be less of an issue. However, Virizion becomes a much larger issue, as M-lix only has a 33% chance to 2HKO it after stealth rock, and Virizion can get to +4 attack or +1 or +2 Special attack and proceed to pummel it. In addition, it loses out on the ability to OHKO Tyrantrum after Stealth Rock, and therefore risks taking a Superpower. Of course its EVs could be modified to have that chance, but losing out on some of those Special Defense EVs detracts from its ability to check what it's supposed to, as with the new spread, it checks a different host of pokemon. It also loses to bulky waters even still, and burn is more detrimental to defensive sets, due to their initial lack of firepower, and because it's a defensive set, it's moreso meant to be a premier switch-in to certain threats, and status prevents it from being able to pivot in and out freely.

Also, about the fully offensive spread, yes, it makes it so much more difficult to switch into. However, most teams will just go straight into their counter regardless. This doesn't change, even as M-lix's spread does. People will still instinctively go out to their bulky water, or they'll still go out to their LO hitmonlee or medicham to rk regardless of Steelix's set.

252+ Atk Mega Steelix Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 145-172 (36.8 - 43.7%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
8 SpA Slowking Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Steelix: 132-156 (37.2 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

These counters are still counters, and arguably give more of a headache to Steelix when running a different set. By being stretched, its flexibility decreases to an extent, and it loses to things it otherwise did counter; however, it still handles other threats much better. I agree, some traditional counters may be overwhelmed, but as a whole, the pool of counters doesn't change a whole lot; also, by running other sets, other counters are created, although some are lost in the process. This could potentially be an advantage, yes, but due to the fact that many of its counters are constant despite the set Steelix may run, it's more of a team-based thing and not so much of a surprise-based thing, as you said. (Again, correct me if I interpreted what you said incorrectly.) Mega Steelix is just like any other pokemon; by focusing on one thing, it forfeits the ability to do another. This is particularly bad for M-lix, due to its general utility when using the standard spread, which allows for extremely useful role compression. Therefore, unless specifically needed, there is no need to change the spread, unless team-specific, and it doesn't matter very much, even if it was changed.

BUT, if the council decides to suspect mega steelix, can the NP song PLEASE be snake eater?