np: OU Suspect Testing Round 3 - So Long and Thanks for all the Fish

[Rackham]

To be honest, I am in favour of testing a no auto-weather metagame. Especially considering that the only Pokemon that anyone will miss would be Tyranitar (maybe hippo??). Although we would miss him, I think that the overall benefits would be preferable to to the metagame that we have at the moment.

 

[Lorenz]

To be honest, I am in favour of testing a no auto-weather metagame. Especially considering that the only Pokemon that anyone will miss would be Tyranitar (maybe hippo??). Although we would miss him, I think that the overall benefits would be preferable to to the metagame that we have at the moment.

I believe that someone did hold a non-weather tournament not too long ago. I do agree that we need to do something about weather more than anything else in this metagame, with the preferred solution of banning auto-weather entirely. Sure you'd lose Tyranitar and Hippowdon until their dream world abilities were released but I could live with that. 5th gen has me wishing Nintendo will limit auto-weather to five turns (or 8 with weather rocks) instead of being permanent in 6th Gen. The Smogcast said it best in describing the current metagame: "It's not 6 on 6 anymore, it's Politoed vs Tyranitar and whoever loses their weather inducer first loses the game".

 

[Ice-eyes]

And I return to another boring Suspect thread...

Drizzle was broken. I advocated Drizzle being banned, at the time, because it was broken.

Sand isn't broken. Garchomp isn't broken; Sand Veil Chomp is annoying, but I don't really think it should be banned. If we think Evasion Clause should be expanded to cover abilities like Sand Veil and Snow Cloak, we should discuss that, and in the context of why Evasion Clause is there in the first place (hint: it's not necessarily because Double Team is that amazing).

 

[Thorhammer]

But if the problem only exists with Garchomp, shouldn't it be solved by banning garchomp?

None of the other users of Sand Veil are going to break the game if they're allowed to keep it. Cacturne is strong but made of glass and has a LOT of weaknesses, and Sandslash if I recall correctly tended to be a tanky spinner more than anything else. Water Absorb and Sand Rush are good abilities, and I think 'Slash will probably use Sand Rush more, but I don't think Veil is broken on either of them, and they are without a doubt the third and fourth best pokemon that actually use the ability, given that Gliscor's better than either of them but rarely uses Sand Veil in order to use Poison Heal. Sand Veil gliscor could be a seriously annoying wall in dedicated sand teams, but even that wasn't totally broken.

Garchomp on the other hand has the issue of being a devastatingly powerful sweeper with superlative coverage and Swampert-level defenses; the misses Sand Veil can give him are HUGE considering his sweeping potential and the fact that if the thing brought in to counter or revenge him misses, it's probably going to die the next turn.

If only a single former Uber is problematic with Sand Veil and the rest of its users are pretty tame, shouldn't it just be Garchomp that goes?

Except for the problem that Garchomp is not broken.

Again, Garchomp is not itself the problem. The problem is Evasion abuse. Evasion Clause bans Double Team and Minimize, and not Brightpowder and Lax Incense, because although they are not broken, they result in Evasion abuse, which, out of all forms of luck, does the most to destroy actual strategy and instead simply makes the game be won by the luckiest player. This Sand Veil abuse is the same way. It's not broken, but it results in Evasion abuse, which unlike other forms of luck, is inherently undesirable.

 

[thunderstone]

I would like to see Auto-Rain and Auto-Sun banned. However I don't necessarily believe they are broken. They are capable of being dealt with; I just dislike this metagame built around weather.

I think we would be banning something not because it breaks the metagame, but because we dislike the metagame we have atm. And to me it feels like a very different ban than Garchomp or Salamence last gen.

Banning one Pokemon for overcentralising - not breaking - the metagame is one thing; but what about a whole playstyle? To repeat a tired argument, we may as well ban Trick Room because we dislike playing against it.

But this is Smogon and we have never played Pokemon as Game Freak intended; rather we remove Pokemon and strategies we dislike playing against and create an artificial metagame we are comfortable playing and label it standard.

But where do we draw the line between playing Game Freak's intended meta (if they had any intentions at all) and the one that we call Standard? Is banning a whole playstyle too far?

This community has already demonstrated a willingness to stick with Game Freak's wishes by adhering to team preview, something that other communites decided against. However when what Game Freak has given us so clearly needs regulating (Moody, Evasion abuse, OHKO moves) where is it we draw the line?

Just my two cents.

tl;dr

I dislike auto-weather, not convinced it should be banned.

 

[shrang]

Except for the problem that Garchomp is not broken.

Again, Garchomp is not itself the problem. The problem is Evasion abuse. Evasion Clause bans Double Team and Minimize, and not Brightpowder and Lax Incense, because although they are not broken, they result in Evasion abuse, which, out of all forms of luck, does the most to destroy actual strategy and instead simply makes the game be won by the luckiest player. This Sand Veil abuse is the same way. It's not broken, but it results in Evasion abuse, which unlike other forms of luck, is inherently undesirable.

You could easily apply this to something else. Something like Groudon is not broken if you ban Swords Dance and Rock Polish. Don't tell me "well other Pokemon aren't broken with Swords Dance and Rock Polish", because I can easily say that there are other Pokemon who have Sand Veil and are not broken, too (See Sandslash, Dugtrio, Cacturne). A Pokemon is one package. If Garchomp is broken with Sand Veil and evasion abuse, then Garchomp is broken and it should be banned, end of story.

 

[alphatron]

The rapid spin arguement a while back about how rapid spin removes over several turns of set up....how often does it actually do this? Most teams run stealth rock and stealth rock alone. Few teams I've seen have actually gone out of there way to set up full layers of spikes. When you add a spinner on your team, you're adding one solely to remove stealth rock. Hence, you are usually using rapid spin to remove just one turn of set up.

There is still a difference between using rapid spin to get rid of stealth rock and using a weather move to play around weather. If you use hail, etc to remove your opponent's weather, your opponent will have to waste a turn switching back in their weather starter. This is not a free turns for them. This merely serves to lose them advantage. If my ferrothorn uses sunny day against a latias, politoed is going to have to switch back in to set the rain up soon enough. Does politoed WANT to switch back in to a base 120 STAB power whip? Does my opponent want to become predictable so that politoed dies to whatever I switch in at that point? I my opponent's rain team going to play with 50% accurate thunders and weakened hydro pumps for 5 turns?

Using a weather move to dispose of weather hurts the weather team far more than using rapind spin to get rid of stealth rock hurts anybody. The strategy of your opponent's team is mostly reliant on weather. There is no team out there that 100% requires stealth rock in order to win. Stealth rock is just used because of the huge advantage it brings.

In my eyes, playing a weatherless metagame is just a cop out people use when they refuse to see weather as something their teams should prepare for. I don't make teams of Masquerain, Yanmega, Zapdos, Salamence, Moltres, and articuno and then complain that stealth rock is way too good. Weather moves are available to nearly all pokemon and are not exclusive to specific things like rapid spin. Weather has more potential counters than Latios and most of the other suspects. So if you feel that weather is a problem, carry something for it. And your selection of pokemon who can do something against weather is so vast that you can't possibly complain about overcentralization.

And this is all said under the guise that non-weather teams have next to no chance against weather teams. That simply isn't true at all, even without dedicating sunny day, sandstorm, hail, or rain dance to any specific pokemon.

Edit: By the way guys, dreamworld Sandshrew has been sighted in the forest area. Sand Rush Sandslash confirmed.

 

[badabing]

There isn't a justifiable reason for banning just Sand Veil. Not right now.

1) As others have mentioned, the problem only exists with Garchomp. There is no other Pokemon that is capable of abusing it to an effect where it would become a concern. This indicates that if something needed to be done about the problem, Garchomp would need to go, not Sand Veil.

It's no different than Moody vs Speed Boost. Moody was banned on the basis that it was broken on all Pokemon using it, not just one. Speed Boost, however, has proven manageable on everything that received it except for Blaziken. Thus, Blaziken was banned entirely.

You can't make exceptions just because you feel like it. It convolutes the rules.

2) Banning Sand Veil right now would effectively ban Garchomp, as well as a host of other Pokemon. It doesn't make sense to do that when we can just ban Garchomp and achieve the same desired effect.


Once Dream World abilities have been released, I have no problems voting Sand Veil out. I'm certain that once it gets to that point, everyone will oblige. But right now it doesn't make sense.




I don't need a whole lot of gaming experience to know that there is people like you in every competitive community for every competitive game imaginable. You'll complain, whine about the circumstances, and if possible, demand things be changed. I've seen it before, and I see it all the time. Not just here.

I'd appreciate it if you didn't act like you know where the metagame is going, because you simply don't.

Stop post picking. I support either a complex ban outlawing Sandstream + Sand Veil on the same team or a straight up Chomp ban. kthnx

 

[RaRaRabbit]

@DW Sandshrew spotting:

Sand Rush Sandslash... Well, I am really excited to see how the next testing phase goes once sandslash starts coming around. People call it an inferior Excadrill, but I really don't think it is. Sure its attack isnt as high, and its not as fast, but its overall defense and neutrality to Mach Punch make it a good substitute for a sand sweeper. Access to Stone Edge is a big perk, and it gets Night Slash as well (not absolutely amazing but another option).

Overall, its just a more defensive version with slightly different typing. I actually REALLY wonder how people are going to handle double Sand Rushers.

 

[soul_survivor]

i believe banning a playstyle is just dumb. Sandstorm has been around since gen3 and now w/ the release of more weather inducers ppl feel if you cant deal w/ it ban it. Sure things like missing because of sand veil is annoying, but i feel it shouldn't be banned because of the chance to miss an atk.

 

[Ulevo]

@Ulevo ok then why don't you explain genius. This entire thread is whining. Im the only one telling the truth and trying to get to the bottom of the metagame. Instead of waiting 3 years to get a decent metagame lets start now. Look at the RMT forum. Its been so dead because all the teams are exactly the same. How many battles have either tyranitar and garchomp or politoad and ferrothorn? its the same thing over and over.

The entire thread is "whining" because its where people go to whine, so to speak. Outside of the IRC and chat on PO, where else do people have a chance to publicly express their concerns?

While I understand your sentiment, the fact is that you can't create a "decent metagame" now. The metagame develops by itself. Even if we make changes, all we do is shuffle the cards around and ensure the process takes even longer before the dust settles in.

I'd also like to note that one of the reasons the RMT forum may be dead is because no one is interested in making any competitive teams until either 1) suspect testing is over, or 2) the new suspect test starts.

I say this because I personally haven't been tempted to ladder at all lately because I've been waiting for the next test to get underway, but between the power outage taking down Smogon for a week and everything else, it's taking a while.

Actually, we can argue that Garchomp is overpowered. The best course of action for people who want Garchomp out is to argue that its best set, perhaps the SubSD set, is overpowered.

Except this doesn't make any sense.

Last generation, Garchomp had access to both the Substitute + Sand Veil set, and the Yache Berry set. Yache Berry is what sent it to Ubers.

I'd also like to note that last generation, sand was everywhere. Right now, sand has to compete with rain and sun, so sand is even less prevalent.

Lets also not forget the fact that you have threats like Latios, Latias, HP Ice Thunderus and friends all threatening Garchomp.

Simply put, Garchomp is worse this generation, even if he is still good.

Stop post picking. I support either a complex ban outlawing Sandstream + Sand Veil on the same team or a straight up Chomp ban. kthnx

What for? To complicate the ruleset further? No thanks.

Edit: By the way guys, dreamworld Sandshrew has been sighted in the forest area. Sand Rush Sandslash confirmed.

How many points are needed? Was this updated on Serebii? Anything else new?

 

[XienZo]

You could easily apply this to something else. Something like Groudon is not broken if you ban Swords Dance and Rock Polish. Don't tell me "well other Pokemon aren't broken with Swords Dance and Rock Polish", because I can easily say that there are other Pokemon who have Sand Veil and are not broken, too (See Sandslash, Dugtrio, Cacturne). A Pokemon is one package. If Garchomp is broken with Sand Veil and evasion abuse, then Garchomp is broken and it should be banned, end of story.

It's different, though, since no one thinks Sand Veil OR Garchomp (OR both) is broken. The problem is that Sand Veil is (supposedly) too luck based. You can't ban a pokemon for being too luck based, only moves and abilities, at least with our current suspect system.

 

[Thorhammer]

You could easily apply this to something else. Something like Groudon is not broken if you ban Swords Dance and Rock Polish. Don't tell me "well other Pokemon aren't broken with Swords Dance and Rock Polish", because I can easily say that there are other Pokemon who have Sand Veil and are not broken, too (See Sandslash, Dugtrio, Cacturne). A Pokemon is one package. If Garchomp is broken with Sand Veil and evasion abuse, then Garchomp is broken and it should be banned, end of story.

I didn't say Garchomp is not broken without Sand Veil. I said Garchomp is not broken, period. With Sand Veil activated, Garchomp is uncompetitive, but even then, it is not broken. The key point here is that Garchomp is not broken whether or not we restrict Sand Veil.

For this reason, the Groudon analogy is irrelevant, because Groudon without restrictions is broken, whereas Garchomp without restrictions is not broken, merely uncompetitive. There is a difference, and being uncompetitive is sufficient justification to ban something - it is merely not sufficient justification to ban an entire Pokemon. Furthermore, the problem of Garchomp being uncompetitive doesn't have anything to do with any attribute of Garchomp other than its ability, and therefore it applies equally to all Pokemon with the ability. Therefore, it is the ability that must be addressed, not Garchomp, and in such a way that does not result in the banning of any Pokemon entirely. A complex ban is ideal for this purpose. Because a complex ban takes less from the metagame, less of a problem is needed to justify a complex ability ban than a simple Pokemon ban. Therefore, it is suited to solve the lesser problem of the uncompetitiveness of the combinations of Sand Stream + Sand Veil and Snow Warning + Snow Cloak.

 

[AlphaSpade]

Now Sand Rush Sandslash is gonna be interesting. It isn't weak to EQ or Mach Punch like Excadrill, and it isn't OHKOed by CB Azumarill Aqua Jet. A +2 Return from Sandslash can still 2HKO 252/184+ Gliscor (48-56%).

Just some calcs of +2 Sandslash vs. Most of Excadrill's current counters.

EQ vs:
Conkledurr: 120 HP/0 Def : 106.30% - 125.20%
Hippowdon : 252 HP/252 Def+: 59.29% - 70.00%
Quagsire(+0): 252 HP/252 Def+: 39.59% - 46.70%

Stone Edge vs:
Skarmory: 252 HP/0 Def: 57.78% - 68.26%
252 HP/252 Def+: 44.01% - 52.10%
Gyarados(+1):252 HP/252 Def+: 82.74% - 97.46%

Return vs:
Breloom: 240 HP/252 Def+: 68.22% - 80.37%
Latias: 252 HP/0 Def: 79.40% - 93.41%

A "double dragon" strategy would/could free up one of Excadrill's moveslots for better coverage, or even Rapid Spin.

 

[Nanoswine]

There is a difference, and being uncompetitive is sufficient justification to ban something

This is not true unless what is being banned serves no purpose other than to introduce luck. Phil didn't even put anything to do with sand veil up for voting last round because no matter how you sugar-coat it, any ban involving sand veil will restrict Pokemon that aren't even broken. If you've got a problem with Garchomp, push to ban Garchomp. If you've got a problem with Sand Veil, push for a ban on that. However, neither is likely to go anywhere since neither is broken and has far more effects than just "reducing luck factors."

 

[Rackham]

i believe banning a playstyle is just dumb. Sandstorm has been around since gen3 and now w/ the release of more weather inducers ppl feel if you cant deal w/ it ban it. Sure things like missing because of sand veil is annoying, but i feel it shouldn't be banned because of the chance to miss an atk.

If you could explain why banning a playstyle is just dumb, I would be more inclined to listen and discuss this. Why I think that we should remove weather is that if we remove Rain (and then probably Sun) for being broken, then Sand, with all its new toys (Sand Rush, Landorus, Garchomp) will inevitably fill the void and become way too over-centralising. It was not broken in Gen 3 or 4, despite the fact that it was much more difficult to remove, because it didn't really do much. Now, however, it greatly enhances the offensive potential of a few extremely powerful threats.The problem here is, when used effectively, similar to Drizzle+SwSW in that you may be able to stop Garchomp/Landorus, but what you've been left with can be swept by Excadrill/Garchomp/Landorus

 

[Thorhammer]

This is not true unless what is being banned serves no purpose other than to introduce luck. Phil didn't even put anything to do with sand veil up for voting last round because no matter how you sugar-coat it, any ban involving sand veil will restrict Pokemon that aren't even broken. If you've got a problem with Garchomp, push to ban Garchomp. If you've got a problem with Sand Veil, push for a ban on that. However, neither is likely to go anywhere since neither is broken and has far more effects than just "reducing luck factors."

Not necessarily. The things that have been banned for uncompetitiveness in the past have served no other purpose, but there has been no decision that something inherently uncompetitive could not be banned if it has other applications.

As for Phil's refusal to put it up for voting, that's not what happened.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102472

You might note that Sand Veil + Snow Cloak did not pass the nomination phase. This was a difficult decision for us to make. The bottom line is, none of the nominations for these evasion abilities even mentioned the fact that it would result in a soft-ban for multiple Pokemon. Nominations are not to be taken lightly; if you want something to be put on the ballot, cover all your angles when nominating things. We simply could not accept such an incomplete nomination.

In other words, a nomination for a ban of Sand Veil and Snow Cloak that takes those soft-bans into account in arguing why the bans should be made would be accepted and cause Sand Veil and Snow Cloak to proceed to voting. The issue was just that none of the nominations for the abilities alone even recognized that matter.

For my proposed ban, this would not even be an issue, as the soft-bans are entirely circumvented. All that's lost is a few combinations of Pokemon, and all of those combinations are inherently uncompetitive when they are used in such a way that would be prohibited by the ban. Therefore, according to Phil's words, it seems like it can be extrapolated that this would be completely permissible. Of course, a clarification from him would be useful.

 

[Woodchuck]

@Rackham: My problem here is your use of the phrase "when used effectively" as justification. Garchomp, Landorus, and Excadrill don't all have exactly the same checks, and using all three in a team in an attempt to wear down each other's checks and counters will leave them open to another weather or a speedier pokemon like Starmie in conjunction with something to kill Excadrill, as long as they are "used effectively". If we are in a metagame where there are multiple playstyles available -- stall, rain offense, rain stall, sand offense, sand stall, anti-weather, sun offense, trick room, teams without weather at all... -- then we should avoid targeting a specific playstyle with bans. Instead, we should be simply banning the individual broken sweepers, as we always do.
If we go and ban all of the weathers, we are just going back to Gen 4. In order to keep with the idea of the 5th gen metagame, we have to accept what GameFreak gives us to some extent and realize that weather has become the dominant, but not only, playstyle. This is the "generation of weather" and to ban all perma-weather would not be in keeping with what we are actually trying to do with the metagame. We can't ban permanent weather just because we dislike it. We need to be more receptive to changes in the metagame from one generation to the next.
tl;dr don't get lazy and ban all the weathers; just ban the most broken sweepers, whether or not it's the weather that breaks them.

 

[badabing]

What for? To complicate the ruleset further? No thanks.

Wow back at it again. You just completely ignore the second half of my post. I totally understand that complex bans are frowned upon and no one wants to create a trend of using them, but in Sand Veil's case it seems to be the cleanest solution. With a complex ban, all movepools are left intact and pokes that aren't broken without their hax-inducing abilities permanently activated can remain in OU. If ability + weather combinations are too complicated for you, maybe you should stick to ingame or go fucking play COD.

Banning Sand Veil entirely doesn't make any sense at all, considering Chomp is the only poke that can abuse those free misses behind a sub to the point where it's gamebreaking. Waiting until DW confirmation on Rough Skin for Chomp and then banning Sand Veil Chomp is also not going to happen. You would just need a plain Garchomp ban because we can't dissect a poke and handpick which qualities are suitable for OU. People tried to make the same argument for Blaziken without Speed Boost.

 

[PttP]

garchomp isnt gonna get banned because most people have a temper level higher than that of a 7 year old

 

[TheValkyries]

Sand Veil talk

This is a solution looking for a problem. Honestly, if the RNG screws you over 100 times, there is 400 more times where it didn't. The 20% chance isn't remotely in an area where it is even worth talking about. Excadrill's Rock Slide flinch is more haxy then this, and yet it's never talked about.

The only reason this is even discussed is because a miss against a Garchomp is very dangerous. So there is one of two solutions:

1. Make your team not so damned Garchomp weak, so that a miss doesn't make you lose every single time.

2. If solution 1 is forced upon everyone, and it hinders team-building too much, then ban Garchomp outright.

Sand Veil isn't the problem, only a small piece of a larger one.

 

[badabing]

garchomp isnt gonna get banned because most people have a temper level higher than that of a 7 year old

How is that possibly a valid argument? That's the kind of (BAN ME PLEASE) logic I was talking about earlier and it's just not worth repeating myself for.

edit @ that shit above:
You're underestimating that percentage when Garchomp can use Substitute more than once. Yes it is worth talking about, Sand Veil is blatantly non-competitive and creates free hax. Sand Veil is a passive ability, Dory's Rock Slide is a deliberate use of a turn for the possibility of a flinch. I don't see how they are comparable. Maybe we should ban Rachi too, LO fucking L.

A team being Garchomp weak has nothing to do with it. Most people would consider Bronzong, for instance, a decent counter to SD Chomp, but it's perfectly capable of haxing its way past it via free boosts behind a Sub.

My second solution Was to ban Garchomp. If you want to present an argument, read my fucking post instead of denoting it as "Sand Veil talk." Thanks for your input.

 

[ginganinja]

This is a solution looking for a problem. Honestly, if the RNG screws you over 100 times, there is 400 more times where it didn't. The 20% chance isn't remotely in an area where it is even worth talking about. Excadrill's Rock Slide flinch is more haxy then this, and yet it's never talked about.

The only reason this is even discussed is because a miss against a Garchomp is very dangerous. So there is one of two solutions:

1. Make your team not so damned Garchomp weak, so that a miss doesn't make you lose every single time.

2. If solution 1 is forced upon everyone, and it hinders team-building too much, then ban Garchomp outright.

Sand Veil isn't the problem, only a small piece of a larger one.

on one team I have 4 checks (purely coincidental though) to Sand Veil Swords Dance Garchomp and even then I can and have been swept by it. 20% does not seem like much however, when Garchomp switchs in on pokemon with Low accuracy moves (Ferrothorn, Rotom W) and you have a choice. Stay in and try (by some miracle) to hit and break its Subs, or switch out to something, giving it a free Substitute and a Swords Dance (assuming you even break the Substitute on the first try). For crying out load it sets up on Gliscor as EQ can only break Subs and Ice Fang has to hit (again, large chance to miss at least once) and if Chomp decided to have Yache then you are fucked anyway.

Any ban on Sand Veil is stupid because its ONLY Garchomp that is being discussed. Until a time where shit like Sand Veil Gliscor is broken then there cannot be a Sand Veil ban. Garchomp is the only problem and therefore it would only be Garchomp banned.

 

[KokoaKiwi]

To be honest, I am in favour of testing a no auto-weather metagame.

This. I can somewhat deal with rain, sun is just stupid, but sand is the most annyoing thing ever. I'm dying for it to be banned.

 

[Ryukapple]

I wouldn't want to see auto-weather banned all at once. Maybe ban them one by one to see if certain weathers aren't really broken or overcentralizing. Even with all of the other weathers gone, would you really think Hail, or maybe even sun, would be all over the place? Then again, that may just be my personal bias speaking.