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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 3 - So Long and Thanks for all the Fish
- Thread starter reachzero
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Erm... well you did say there was stall too but pretty much you did say what he claimed you did.
Anyway, there are indeed a lot more teams around than SS and Rain. Typical offence or balance backed with TTar is common, as is Sun, and yeah there are some Hail and Rain Stall teams about as well. The teams themselves may be a few reasonably predictable archetypes, but the meta has a diversity of teams. The main argument for centralisation I could see is if some abusers of a weather are centralising that type of team, but as far as I can tell Tornadus, Thudurus, Landorus or Excadrill for example are not doing this - the teams supporting them are not always exactly the same.
Um, if some people can't stand rain and sand, what's wrong with them going back to 4th gen? That's the whole point of maintaining a 4th gen metagame, isn't it? That way, people who dislike the changes can always go back if they want.
There isn't a justifiable reason for banning just Sand Veil. Not right now.
1) As others have mentioned, the problem only exists with Garchomp. There is no other Pokemon that is capable of abusing it to an effect where it would become a concern. This indicates that if something needed to be done about the problem, Garchomp would need to go, not Sand Veil.
It's no different than Moody vs Speed Boost. Moody was banned on the basis that it was broken on all Pokemon using it, not just one. Speed Boost, however, has proven manageable on everything that received it except for Blaziken. Thus, Blaziken was banned entirely.
You can't make exceptions just because you feel like it. It convolutes the rules.
2) Banning Sand Veil right now would effectively ban Garchomp, as well as a host of other Pokemon. It doesn't make sense to do that when we can just ban Garchomp and achieve the same desired effect.
Once Dream World abilities have been released, I have no problems voting Sand Veil out. I'm certain that once it gets to that point, everyone will oblige. But right now it doesn't make sense.
I don't need a whole lot of gaming experience to know that there is people like you in every competitive community for every competitive game imaginable. You'll complain, whine about the circumstances, and if possible, demand things be changed. I've seen it before, and I see it all the time. Not just here.
I'd appreciate it if you didn't act like you know where the metagame is going, because you simply don't.
Whats hard to understand? All im saying is that rain and sand are very very common. In the long run if no bans happen the entire metagame will be only rain and sand. People are so quick to attack me but cant even understand whats right in their face.
@Ulevo ok then why don't you explain genius. This entire thread is whining. Im the only one telling the truth and trying to get to the bottom of the metagame. Instead of waiting 3 years to get a decent metagame lets start now. Look at the RMT forum. Its been so dead because all the teams are exactly the same. How many battles have either tyranitar and garchomp or politoad and ferrothorn? its the same thing over and over.
If your posts weren't so fucking convulted, then maybe we could stop getting confused, but you clearly don't want to stop that. And how the hell would the metagame be only Sand and Rain if no bans occur? People will get creative and find ways to succeed against those weather teams.
Its kind of hard to succeed when you have specs hydro pumps and specs hurricanes coming at you. Or sub dance garchomps sweeping off a miss. How about a meta-game based on skill rather than off of boosted attacks with no set up or penalty i.e drizzle. Why would you not use a rain or sand team when these things look so appealing?
And my post are not convoluted. Just read carefully and not let my nickname get in the way of your comprehension. Every post thus far people have put words in my mouth.
This metagame is based on skill you dumbass. Even with the immense power of weather, you still need skill to be able to use that power effectively and not fail against any decent player. And you might want to use a non-weather team because they can offer a much wider range of Pokemon to fool around with, and you can see how good you are at facing weather teams without something to nullfiy their weather.
Edit:
Mind point out those places because I don't seem to notice where anyone posting ATM is putting words into your mouth.
If skill to you is abusing sand veil and spaming hydro pump/waterfall/hurricane in rain then maybe your the dumbass. I use a non weather team and got to top 60-50 or something. I remember beating you actually skillfully (got the logs). Then everyone i played after abused garchomp. Every single battle was garchomp subbing and sd and me missing. Im not trying to fight or insult anyone. Thats against the rules. Im just saying the metagame is going in the wrong direction with silly non decisive bans the first 3 test.
It seemed fine, mostly because Gen 3 didn't have Garchomp, and in Gen 4, Garchomp was uber. And before Garchomp was uber, people recognized that it wasn't fine.
However, that doesn't mean it was ever fine, just that it was thought to be fine. Garchomp illustrates a problem that was always there. Furthermore, we didn't have a good way of dealing with it, so even when people complained (which happened often enough), we couldn't do anything about it. Now, we do.
Well whoop dee fucking doo for you. You beat me, and what exactly is that supposed to accomplish? I lose like 60% of my battles everytime I play, so 1 loss doesn't affect me. And good for you for getting a good ranking with a non-weather team. And if think that the metagame is going in the wrong direction, get voting rights and try and change it instead of bitching about it.
why reply to me if you don't want me to discuss? Your a gluten for punishment. Im discussing not bitching. I bitched in my first post that the mod deleted. Im discussing now. Can you comprehend what i am saying. Is that convoluted to you? Discussing it gets other peoples opinions on it. Isnt that what this thread is for? If you cant come up with quality results to back up your claims don't call anyone a dumbass.
Anyways that my opinion in a nutshell. Lets see what happens in round 4 hopefully 5th gen can be fun again.
But if the problem only exists with Garchomp, shouldn't it be solved by banning garchomp?
None of the other users of Sand Veil are going to break the game if they're allowed to keep it. Cacturne is strong but made of glass and has a LOT of weaknesses, and Sandslash if I recall correctly tended to be a tanky spinner more than anything else. Water Absorb and Sand Rush are good abilities, and I think 'Slash will probably use Sand Rush more, but I don't think Veil is broken on either of them, and they are without a doubt the third and fourth best pokemon that actually use the ability, given that Gliscor's better than either of them but rarely uses Sand Veil in order to use Poison Heal. Sand Veil gliscor could be a seriously annoying wall in dedicated sand teams, but even that wasn't totally broken.
Garchomp on the other hand has the issue of being a devastatingly powerful sweeper with superlative coverage and Swampert-level defenses; the misses Sand Veil can give him are HUGE considering his sweeping potential and the fact that if the thing brought in to counter or revenge him misses, it's probably going to die the next turn.
If only a single former Uber is problematic with Sand Veil and the rest of its users are pretty tame, shouldn't it just be Garchomp that goes?
Sand Veil can only be reasonably banned through Evasion Clause.
There are currently no method to ban Pokemon through Clauses, AKA, for reasons other than being overpowered in the tier.
However, no one's going to believe that Garchomp, Sand Veil or not, is actually overpowered.
Thus, Garchomp can't be banned with our current suspect testing system (under the justification of merely being luck-based), so the only way is to use a Clause to target Sand Veil, since Abilities have much fewer restrictions on how they can be banned.
There are currently no method to ban Pokemon through Clauses, AKA, for reasons other than being overpowered in the tier.
However, no one's going to believe that Garchomp, Sand Veil or not, is actually overpowered.
Thus, Garchomp can't be banned with our current suspect testing system (under the justification of merely being luck-based), so the only way is to use a Clause to target Sand Veil, since Abilities have much fewer restrictions on how they can be banned.
Firstly, about Sand Veil, imo, if the ability breaks the Pokemon then the Pokemon should be banned (like Blaziken). Personally, I don't think that Garchomp is broken this gen (just), although he is still a real headache for most teams.
Secondly, are people okay with at least testing a clear skies metagame? I think that if we did this then we could grasp a better understanding of how to create a better, more balanced metagame.
Secondly, are people okay with at least testing a clear skies metagame? I think that if we did this then we could grasp a better understanding of how to create a better, more balanced metagame.
who said anything about banning Sand Veil. I just made a post saying why its pointless. Lets face it, Garchomp is the only thing that is *maybe* broken with Sand Veil. You don't see people bitching about Sand Veil Gliscor, its only Garchomp mainly cause of its high speed, bulk, Swords Dance and Substitute effectivally put you in a do or die situation where if you miss, Garchomp gets a free Swords Dance. If it picks up another Swords Dance and also grabs a Substitute its basically gg. Therefore since it is only Garchomp which people are fussed about then it is only Garchomp which would (hypothetically) be banned. Similar to Speed Boost Blaziken. Speed boost as an ability is not broken, the ability was only broken on Blaziken, hence we banned Blaziken.
I agree that the prospect of banning Garchomp seems a bit premature when there are threats such as Thundurus and Latios stalking the metagame but (again) looking at the Portrait of an Uber (which, granted is a bit outdated)
Sandstorm (for better or worse) is common in this metagame and thanks to Swords Dance and Substitute Garchomp can abuse Sand Veil to get past its counters. Gliscor is OHKOed at +4 which is damn easy to do when EQ can only break Chomps Subs (and it can miss) and Ice Fang is the only thing that will really 2KO Garchomp (and if it has Yache your screwed). Not to mention its very easy for Garchomp to set up. Rotom W for example, is pretty much set up fodder as Hydro Pump will pretty much miss at least once. Ferrothorn is p much in the same boat. In addition very few things out speed Chomp that can also take an Outrage or Earthquake. and anyways, Chomp always has the option of switching out of an unfavourable match-up and coming back later in the game for more devastation.
I dont exactly find that Sand and Rain being Overpowering
The logic that Dory is awesome(except Bulky Lefties Rapid Spin Dory) have been killed in my mind tbh. Rain also isnt as crazy as previous round but knowing my post everyone know the only thing i hate in this round is that "DM spammer that dont actualy use DM"
Rather than Dory, i rather ban that or Landlos(which i dont find broken at all).
As for chomp, the miss argument have been shown for two round, and i dont find a good argument to state that the miss is exagerated to me.
The logic that Dory is awesome(except Bulky Lefties Rapid Spin Dory) have been killed in my mind tbh. Rain also isnt as crazy as previous round but knowing my post everyone know the only thing i hate in this round is that "DM spammer that dont actualy use DM"
Rather than Dory, i rather ban that or Landlos(which i dont find broken at all).
As for chomp, the miss argument have been shown for two round, and i dont find a good argument to state that the miss is exagerated to me.
I'm not a regular poster on Smogon so forgive me if this suggestion is a little stupid, but if the only issue with Garchomp (as I don't think it is broken this gen either) is sand veil abuse, wouldn't it be better to ban the combination of sand veil garchomp and sand stream rather than Garchomp entirely? Or maybe substitue and swords dance on the same set, since it isn't Garchomp's fault Tyranitar is everywhere.
There's so many major threats this gen of Pokemon that banning Garchomp based on sand weather conditions alone seems a little unfair and more like an easy way out of dealing with Garchomp's in general, but as I said I haven't been a Smogon user long so sorry if this post is deemed stupid.
There's so many major threats this gen of Pokemon that banning Garchomp based on sand weather conditions alone seems a little unfair and more like an easy way out of dealing with Garchomp's in general, but as I said I haven't been a Smogon user long so sorry if this post is deemed stupid.
In that case why not ban STAB moves on Kyogre? Or Air Slash and Seed Flare on Shaymin S? Banning Substitute and Swords Dance on Garchomp is far too specialised as well as opening up a whole new can of worms. Also as I stated above -_-
As an ability Sand Veil (even with Sand Stream Active) is not broken.
This is different to Drizzle + Swift Swim as Swift Swim was deemed broken under Drizzle. Therefore banning Sandstream and Sand Veil is utterly worthless. It effectively bans Garchomp (till Rough Skin (DW) is released) and is, in effect, a complicated banning for One pokemon. As states above Swift Swim was different as many pokemon with Swift Swim were broken under Drizzle. It is Garchomp and Garchomp alone that is (perhaps) broken with Sand Veil and therefore it should be a straightford banning as seen in the Blaziken banning.
Ohnoitsononokusu, it's just that getting into complex bans on particular pokemon gets to be a real headache to follow. It's not a bad suggestion, but it's just working within reason. If specific rules about moveset restrictions were made on particular pokemon, then we'd have a LOT of potential new restrictions to weed through.
And I saw a post earlier in the thread that really made me wonder...
What if we just banned all auto-weather? No Hippos, No TTars, No Toeds, No Foxes, No Yetis, and obviously no uber weathers. I realize this seems extreme, but is it really?
Rather than make the complex ban of Drizzle+Swift Swim, why not just ban Drizzle? Instead of banning Chomp for Sandstorm abuse, why not just ban Sand Stream? A metagame without auto-weather wouldn't be the end of the world. It seems like a semi-lazy ban, but to be honest, I just think it'd work. You don't even need to ban Toed and Ninetales, just the auto-weather ability. And with DW abilities out, pokemon that originally only had Auto-weather would be spared and could stay in the metagame through these means. No more DW tiers separate from regular tiers. Just remove auto-weather entirely.
Crazy, I know. But would it really be all that bad? Seriously. Would it?
And I saw a post earlier in the thread that really made me wonder...
What if we just banned all auto-weather? No Hippos, No TTars, No Toeds, No Foxes, No Yetis, and obviously no uber weathers. I realize this seems extreme, but is it really?
Rather than make the complex ban of Drizzle+Swift Swim, why not just ban Drizzle? Instead of banning Chomp for Sandstorm abuse, why not just ban Sand Stream? A metagame without auto-weather wouldn't be the end of the world. It seems like a semi-lazy ban, but to be honest, I just think it'd work. You don't even need to ban Toed and Ninetales, just the auto-weather ability. And with DW abilities out, pokemon that originally only had Auto-weather would be spared and could stay in the metagame through these means. No more DW tiers separate from regular tiers. Just remove auto-weather entirely.
Crazy, I know. But would it really be all that bad? Seriously. Would it?
Alot of people here probably use TTar/Exca on all of their balanced teams and therefore are biased, but I think that'd be decent to try out for a while.
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