Metagame np: NU Stage 15 - The Climb | Baton Pass Banned

The thing that makes pursuit so effective is that it limits teams with their sacks. Being able to save a pokemon for later in the game, such as a low health mesprit that can live rocks and fire off a specs psychic is important, whether you use it for its ability to fire off an attack or as a sack. Pursuit stops people saving their sacks and hence it pressures teams, in general, more than if you were to not carry pursuit. Hence having cores where you force your opponent into a position where they need to double to avoid being trapped with xatu using hazards, or to check something like a gurdurr or hitmonchan is extremely effective and makes it easier to pressure teams.
Pursuit is an extremely viable and success tactic for team building, as demonstrated throughout the generation either with sneasel, liepard or skuntank.
 

[Please note, I've kept this short for a reason, I don't wanna put too much detail just yet]

I'm an irrelevant player in the NU community but I'd be keen to see some discussion on Mesprit (despite the talk on pursuit recently y_y). I'm not asking for an immediate suspect (especially considering SuMo is around the corner) though I'd be interested to hear some thoughts on this Pokemon and maybe one in the future. Mesprit is by no means broken, however, it's extremely versatile and is pretty splashable if you ask me. This thing has a multitude of sets it can run, which include: Specs, Defensive Rocks, Scarf, Offensive Rocks, Healing Wish +3 Attacks, Calm Mind +3 Attacks, CroSprit, SubCM, Weather Support and Even band. This can make pretty Mesprit unpredictable albeit sometimes you should be able to realise due to the opposing team layout. Another thing that Mesprit heavily benefits from is from its all round Stats which allow it to fulfil a plethora of roles. The Specs set is probably the most common set, it's so damn strong and is able to OHKO/2HKO a decent chunk of the meta and due to Signal Beam, it also nails Dark Type switch-ins. Scarf Mesprit makes a good revenge killer and is able grab offensive momentum via U-Turn and is able to support team mates via Healing Wish. Defensive Rocks makes a great Fighting Resist as it's able to switch into things such as Hitmonchan whilst still support teammates in the form of Stealth Rock. It's also able to cripple threats with broken move: Thunder Wave! I might be overselling Mesprit here but its main flaw is a Dark Weakness making it vulnerable to Pursuit / Knock Off / Sucker Punch from the likes of Skuntank and or Shiftry. This seems like a Viability Ranking post but if you think I'm blabbering on about the sets, it's for a reason. My end point is that Mesprit is extremely versatile, splashable, has the ability to support its teammates fairly well, can adjust to the meta accordingly, is able to grab momentum via U-Turn, can fulfil offensive and defensive roles and unpredictable. I'm not sure how many people agree with me on this but I've wanted to make this post for a while now and just want to know how people feel about Mesprit in the current Meta right now :((.

(PS: Sorry if this doesn't make sense, I'm half asleep whilst writing this)
 
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Pokedots

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[Please note, I've kept this short for a reason, I don't wanna put too much detail just yet]

I'm an irrelevant player in the NU community but I'd be keen to see some discussion on Mesprit (despite the talk on pursuit recently y_y). I'm not asking for an immediate suspect (especially considering SuMo is around the corner) though I'd be interested to hear some thoughts on this Pokemon and maybe one in the future. Mesprit is by no means broken, however, it's extremely versatile and is pretty splashable if you ask me. This thing has a multitude of sets it can run, which include: Specs, Defensive Rocks, Scarf, Offensive Rocks, Healing Wish +3 Attacks, Calm Mind +3 Attacks, CroSprit, SubCM, Weather Support and Even band. This can make pretty Mesprit unpredictable albeit sometimes you should be able to realise due to the opposing team layout. Another thing that Mesprit heavily benefits from is from its all round Stats which allow it to fulfil a plethora of roles. The Specs set is probably the most common set, it's so damn strong and is able to OHKO/2HKO a decent chunk of the meta and due to Signal Beam, it also nails Dark Type switch-ins. Scarf Mesprit makes a good revenge killer and is able grab offensive momentum via U-Turn and is able to support team mates via Healing Wish. Defensive Rocks makes a great Fighting Resist as it's able to switch into things such as Hitmonchan whilst still support teammates in the form of Stealth Rock. It's also able to cripple threats with broken move: Thunder Wave! I might be overselling Mesprit here but its main flaw is a Dark Weakness making it vulnerable to Pursuit / Knock Off / Sucker Punch from the likes of Skuntank and or Shiftry. This seems like a Viability Ranking post but if you think I'm blabbering on about the sets, it's for a reason. My end point is that Mesprit is extremely versatile, splashable, has the ability to support its teammates fairly well, can adjust to the meta accordingly, is able to grab momentum via U-Turn, can fulfil offensive and defensive roles and unpredictable. I'm not sure how many people agree with me on this but I've wanted to make this post for a while now and just want to know how people feel about Mesprit in the current Meta right now :((.

(PS: Sorry if this doesn't make sense, I'm half asleep whilst writing this)
As you said yourself, Mesprit is by no means broken, so I'm a little confused as to why you're suggesting a suspect test. A meta without Mesprit would certainly be interesting, but Mesprit is a Pokemon with plenty of counterplay, and in spite of its versality you can respond to most of the sets in the same way, though thinking it's specs and it actually being (sub) cm can be quite punishing. I don't really see any reason to suspect it outside of shaking things up, but if you or anyone else have any more reasoning and I'm actually totally wrong, I'd be interested in hearing your arguments
 
As you said yourself, Mesprit is by no means broken, so I'm a little confused as to why you're suggesting a suspect test. A meta without Mesprit would certainly be interesting, but Mesprit is a Pokemon with plenty of counterplay, and in spite of its versality you can respond to most of the sets in the same way, though thinking it's specs and it actually being (sub) cm can be quite punishing. I don't really see any reason to suspect it outside of shaking things up, but if you or anyone else have any more reasoning and I'm actually totally wrong, I'd be interested in hearing your arguments
Mesprit is a Pokemon that requires little to no teambuilding skill, it easily fits on majority of archetypes due to its versatility. It's also able to deal with majority of threats in the current metagame whether it's fighting types with its defensive SR set or being able 2HKO / OHKO the majority of the meta with its Specs set. Mesprits coverage and customisability also is something to desire and those are just other things that make it versatile. Another thing that Mesprit consistently does well is adapt to the Metagame and is easily able to follow patterns allowing it to adjust accordingly, this is due to its diversity. On top of this, Mesprit is pretty splashable

For Example:

NOVEMBER'S USAGE STATS:
| 1 | Mesprit | 24.566%
OCTOBER'S USAGE STATS:
1 | Mesprit | 25.124%
SEPTEMBER'S USAGE STATS:
1 | Mesprit | 24.241%
AUGUST'S USAGE STATS:
1 | Mesprit | 22.940%
JULY'S USAGE STATS:
1 | Mesprit | 23.753%
JUNE'S USAGE STATS:
1 | Mesprit | 19.204%
MAY'S USAGE STATS:
1 | Mesprit | 21.059%
APRIL'S USAGE STATS:
1 | Mesprit | 22.480%
MARCH'S USAGE STATS:
1 | Mesprit | 17.236%
FEBRUARY'S USAGE STATS:
2 | Mesprit | 18.696%
(After Steelix)
JANRUARY'S USAGE STATS:
1 | Mesprit | 19.432%
DECEMBER'S USAGE STATS:
1 | Mesprit | 21.322%
As you can see Mesprit has managed to remain #1 over the past 11/12 months. Keep in mind, some of these stats were during the Sawk and or Sceptile meta too. If this doesn't tell you how quickly it can adapt to a Meta, then well... This also tells you how splashable Mesprit is as well as its consistency throughout metagames. I feel like Mesprit can compress a lot of stuff into one Pokemon, A Ground immunity, A Stealth Rock setter, A pivot, A Wall Breaker, A Stall Breaker [SubCM], A Revenge Killer and can grab momentum with U-Turn or Healing Wish. To use Mesprit in a battle doesn't require much battling Skill either, honestly. If you're using the Specs set you're going to be spamming Psychic majority of the time, if not Signal Beaming / U-Turn, same goes to scarf. The Stealth Rock set only really has to fear for Xatu in which case you'll be U-Turning and due to Colbur Berry, this set has to worry about Dark Types significantly less. Things such as the (Sub) CM set on the other hand, may be a bit harder to use, but against stall, it's pretty damn easy.

Honestly, in the end Mesprit brings a ton to the table, it's able to adapt and has been pretty damn consistent throughout Gen 6. It takes very little skill to slap onto a team (Fighting resist, ground immunity, fighting check, stealth rock setter, wall breaker, etc) and isn't too hard to use either. Each one of its sets do different things and is able tackle pretty much every archetype as well as fit onto pretty much every archetype. And to be frank, I'm kind of sick of seeing this on majority of teams, not that it's hard to beat but because of its unpredictability and the little required skill to use it. I'd be extremely keen/interested to see a Mesprit-free ladder in the future.
 
Mesprit is a Pokemon that requires little to no teambuilding skill, it easily fits on majority of archetypes due to its versatility. It's also able to deal with majority of threats in the current metagame whether it's fighting types with its defensive SR set or being able 2HKO / OHKO the majority of the meta with its Specs set. Mesprits coverage and customisability also is something to desire and those are just other things that make it versatile. Another thing that Mesprit consistently does well is adapt to the Metagame and is easily able to follow patterns allowing it to adjust accordingly, this is due to its diversity. On top of this, Mesprit is pretty splashable

For Example:

NOVEMBER'S USAGE STATS:
OCTOBER'S USAGE STATS:
SEPTEMBER'S USAGE STATS:
AUGUST'S USAGE STATS:
JULY'S USAGE STATS:
JUNE'S USAGE STATS:
MAY'S USAGE STATS:
APRIL'S USAGE STATS:
MARCH'S USAGE STATS:
FEBRUARY'S USAGE STATS:
(After Steelix)
JANRUARY'S USAGE STATS:
DECEMBER'S USAGE STATS:


As you can see Mesprit has managed to remain #1 over the past 11/12 months. Keep in mind, some of these stats were during the Sawk and or Sceptile meta too. If this doesn't tell you how quickly it can adapt to a Meta, then well... This also tells you how splashable Mesprit is as well as its consistency throughout metagames. I feel like Mesprit can compress a lot of stuff into one Pokemon, A Ground immunity, A Stealth Rock setter, A pivot, A Wall Breaker, A Stall Breaker [SubCM], A Revenge Killer and can grab momentum with U-Turn or Healing Wish. To use Mesprit in a battle doesn't require much battling Skill either, honestly. If you're using the Specs set you're going to be spamming Psychic majority of the time, if not Signal Beaming / U-Turn, same goes to scarf. The Stealth Rock set only really has to fear for Xatu in which case you'll be U-Turning and due to Colbur Berry, this set has to worry about Dark Types significantly less. Things such as the (Sub) CM set on the other hand, may be a bit harder to use, but against stall, it's pretty damn easy.

Honestly, in the end Mesprit brings a ton to the table, it's able to adapt and has been pretty damn consistent throughout Gen 6. It takes very little skill to slap onto a team (Fighting resist, ground immunity, fighting check, stealth rock setter, wall breaker, etc) and isn't too hard to use either. Each one of its sets do different things and is able tackle pretty much every archetype as well as fit onto pretty much every archetype. And to be frank, I'm kind of sick of seeing this on majority of teams, not that it's hard to beat but because of its unpredictability and the little required skill to use it. I'd be extremely keen/interested to see a Mesprit-free ladder in the future.
Can I just point out that there is a fine line between "too good" and a "good top tier pokemon".
You said it yourself, it's not broken nor has it ever been. You're suspecting it basing it off of usage, then we compare it to Lando-t in OU and we see similar results. Just because it's a good pokemon and is versatile enough to fit on a lot of teams, does not mean we should suspect it for the sake of it.
May I also point out it's really a "jack of all trades, master of none". All of its sets have major flaws, since it doesn't have access to reliable recovery, it can't afford to run lefties because of knock off being a thing and the specs set can't usually afford to lock itself into its stab move for the fear it will be trapped by liepard or skuntank.

This mindset of "it's the best pokemon in the tier, these are the reasons why it's good, maybe we should consider it's too good for nu" - is not even remotely a reason to ban or suspect it because you said it yourself, mesprit is not broken. At this point, I feel like the suggestion may only sound appealing because the NU meta is very boring and repetitive and by banning mesprit (the most commonly used pokemon in NU currently), it will change and spice up the meta. Which in my opinion is a very bad reason to have a suspect test.
 
Can I just point out that there is a fine line between "too good" and a "good top tier pokemon".
You said it yourself, it's not broken nor has it ever been. You're suspecting it basing it off of usage, then we compare it to Lando-t in OU and we see similar results. Just because it's a good pokemon and is versatile enough to fit on a lot of teams, does not mean we should suspect it for the sake of it.
May I also point out it's really a "jack of all trades, master of none". All of its sets have major flaws, since it doesn't have access to reliable recovery, it can't afford to run lefties because of knock off being a thing and the specs set can't usually afford to lock itself into its stab move for the fear it will be trapped by liepard or skuntank.

This mindset of "it's the best pokemon in the tier, these are the reasons why it's good, maybe we should consider it's too good for nu" - is not even remotely a reason to ban or suspect it because you said it yourself, mesprit is not broken. At this point, I feel like the suggestion may only sound appealing because the NU meta is very boring and repetitive and by banning mesprit (the most commonly used pokemon in NU currently), it will change and spice up the meta. Which in my opinion is a very bad reason to have a suspect test.
I guess I mostly agree with you but I think you've kind of misunderstood me. Yeah, I'll admit though, I probably put a bit too much of emphasis on the fact that it's versatile. It's not broken but I feel like Mesprit requires very little skill when it comes to teambuilding as it's usually easy to fit on. Just because I have shown the usage stats to back up my case doesn't mean I'm suspecting it based off usage. But yes, I'll agree with you that its sets have flaws, getting trapped sucks, but its positives outshine its negatives, do they not? But why do you think Pursuit is dominant? I'm not trying to say that pursuit is common entirely due to Mesprit's presence (Xatu, Rotom, etc) albeit Mesprit obviously a (main) target that pursuit trappers would like to trap.

This mindset of "it's the best pokemon in the tier, these are the reasons why it's good, maybe we should consider it's too good for nu" - is not even remotely a reason to ban or suspect it
I don't really get this, the reason why a Pokemon is suspected is simply for being too good for a tier whether the cause of that is being Broken, Unskilful or Uncompetitive. Mesprit is good. But I'm not completely requesting a suspect because of that. Once again, I'm curious to see what people think of a possible suspect the main reason being the lack of skill needed to teambuild with this as well as other things that I've mentioned in previous posts. I do however, understand where you're coming from and why you'd probably think that I'm basing it off of versatility. I'll add more stuff to this post once I get the time.
 
Well single handedly it's not mesprit that causes pursuit to be such a big thing, because musharna, xatu, rotom, jynx, anything physically weak that can be outsped and finished off with pursuit basically is a reason to use pursuit and why it's such a huge importance in the tier. I can understand your pov whereby you think it's skill-less building because of how easy mesprit fits onto many teams, but at the same time i don't think that mesprit is suspect worthy.
 

Disjunction

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Role compression, splashability, and set diversity does not mean a Pokemon is broken. Similarly, as ted has stated, being the best mon in the tier does not mean a pokemon is broken.
Mesprit is a Pokemon that requires little to no teambuilding skill, it easily fits on majority of archetypes due to its versatility.
I disagree with this. Your team will not automatically get better by adding a mesprit to it every time you decide to do so. If Mesprit was mandatory on teams, like Mega Steelix and Sneasel were in their respective metas, I'd be inclined to agree that it should be suspected. However, this is not the case as each Mesprit set is not strong enough in its own right to try and warp teams to always have a focus on it. Is it a common pick because of its diversity in sets and ability to cover a sizeable swathe of niches in one slot? Hell yeah it is. However, there is a fine line between "role compression in one slot that allows it to be a common choice" and "every team has this mon and makes matchups against it unfair because it's too good to pass up."
It's also able to deal with majority of threats in the current metagame whether it's fighting types with its defensive SR set or being able 2HKO / OHKO the majority of the meta with its Specs set.
In regards to its defensive set, I actually rarely consider it and only go for it if I'm on an offensive team that needs rocks and healing wish support. Defensively, Psychic-typing is not the be all end all of typings, especially with Mesprits defenses. I'm not saying it's a bad set, it's obviously very effective. However, I am saying Mesprit's defensive spread does not "deal with a majority of threats in the current metagame." Specs is slower, scarf is weaker, subcm requires a good matchup. If you had each of these sets on a team you'd probably have a better time "dealing with the majority of threats in the current metagame" but Mesprit can't do each of these at once.
Mesprits coverage and customisability also is something to desire and those are just other things that make it versatile. Another thing that Mesprit consistently does well is adapt to the Metagame and is easily able to follow patterns allowing it to adjust accordingly, this is due to its diversity. On top of this, Mesprit is pretty splashable
Adaptability is not an uncommon trait, though. Offensive Rhydon adapted to Floatzel by running Jolly, Samurott adapted to Abomasnow and base 70's by running Jolly/Timid, and Xatu's had like 500 different EV Spreads since XY. Being able to change and optimize the tools a mon has is not a sign of being broken.
I feel like Mesprit can compress a lot of stuff into one Pokemon, A Ground immunity, A Stealth Rock setter, A pivot, A Wall Breaker, A Stall Breaker [SubCM], A Revenge Killer and can grab momentum with U-Turn or Healing Wish.
This seems to be your main argument as to why Mesprit is broken, but there are many other instances of Pokemon in NU having role compression. Rhydon is a bulky Normal-, Flying-, Bug-, and Fire-type check that can provide an Electric immunity to the team. It also has awesome offensive presence with Swords Dance, EdgeQuake coverage, Megahorn for Torterra/Claydol who are the only two relevant mons that resist EdgeQuake coverage, and supplies invaluable Stealth Rock support.

Rhydon's assortment of roles has a similar effect on teambuilding. Dominant Pokemon in the metagame will do that and yet I haven't seen any particular reason as to why Mesprit is breaking this mold at all.
To use Mesprit in a battle doesn't require much battling Skill either, honestly. If you're using the Specs set you're going to be spamming Psychic majority of the time, if not Signal Beaming / U-Turn, same goes to scarf. The Stealth Rock set only really has to fear for Xatu in which case you'll be U-Turning and due to Colbur Berry, this set has to worry about Dark Types significantly less. Things such as the (Sub) CM set on the other hand, may be a bit harder to use, but against stall, it's pretty damn easy.
First, I don't see how "you're going to be forced to use 3/4 of this Pokemon's moveset" is an argument for it being skill-less. Yeah, like, Samurott will be spamming Hydro Pump most of the time except on Grass-types it can KO with Ice Beam and Gastrodons it can KO with Grass Knot. Wallbreakers typically spam their attacks to deal a lot of damage and this isn't really unique to Mesprit.

The Stealth Rock set also has to be afraid of Toxic, Klinklang, Rotom, Mega Audino, Ferroseed, SD Samurott, and about ten or fifteen other mons. It's passive and doesn't punish stuff well if it's without t-wave and can't hit it super-effectively with Psychic.

Teddeh's parallel to Lando-t is accurate. Just because a Pokemon is widely used, has several good sets, and has an effect on teambuilding does not mean it is broken, overcentralizing, or deserving of a suspect test. If you can make an argument as to how Mesprit is broken or uncompetitive (meaning mesprit's influence in battle is so overwhelming it inhibits skillful play), I would be open to a suspect test. However, all I'm seeing is "it has a lot of sets and does them each at an above average level" and "it's unskillful in the team builder because it's easy to use frequently." I'd personally like to see more than that because that alone assuredly does not prove Mesprit is overly centralizing.
 

yogi

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I can understand why you would question Mesprit's place in the tier sanjay., as it does have several usable sets, decent natural bulk, offers a soft ground resist with levitate, can adapt to certain teams with slight tweaks in coverage (i.e. I used Knock Off on my rocks set to help my match-up vs stall, specifically Bronzor) and does role compression fantastically. Like it has been said however, that doesn't make it broken per-say, but just an extremely effective mon in the current metagame.

I disagree with this. Your team will not automatically get better by adding a mesprit to it every time you decide to do so. If Mesprit was mandatory on teams, like Mega Steelix and Sneasel were in their respective metas, I'd be inclined to agree that it should be suspected. However, this is not the case as each Mesprit set is not strong enough in its own right to try and warp teams to always have a focus on it. Is it a common pick because of its diversity in sets and ability to cover a sizeable swathe of niches in one slot? Hell yeah it is. However, there is a fine line between "role compression in one slot that allows it to be a common choice" and "every team has this mon and makes matchups against it unfair because it's too good to pass up."
I however disagree with what Disjunction said about it not being making most teams 'automatically better'. While it isn't a mandatory mon in comparison to something like Primal-Groudon, it is able to easy fill holes in many teams and is usable on basically every single archetype bar stall, due to its versatility. It is the most splashable mon in tier bar none and is extremely useful for patching up spots on a lot of teams, with most benefiting from it being there. While its defensive set struggles to deal with some common threats in the metagame, it provides momentum and defensive synergy all at once, which is pretty much unique for a rocker in this tier; whilst also not losing to most of the dark types in the tier thanks to Colbur Berry plus U-turn.

This seems to be your main argument as to why Mesprit is broken, but there are many other instances of Pokemon in NU having role compression. Rhydon is a bulky Normal-, Flying-, Bug-, and Fire-type check that can provide an Electric immunity to the team. It also has awesome offensive presence with Swords Dance, EdgeQuake coverage, Megahorn for Torterra/Claydol who are the only two relevant mons that resist EdgeQuake coverage, and supplies invaluable Stealth Rock support.

Rhydon's assortment of roles has a similar effect on teambuilding. Dominant Pokemon in the metagame will do that and yet I haven't seen any particular reason as to why Mesprit is breaking this mold at all.
While I'm not giving this as a reason to Mesprit being broken, because it's not, I don't think this is a good comparison. You know what Rhydon does and it almost never changes its set to utilise coverage options because it would be an unviable option to do so; unlike Mesprit which can often do it freely without compromising its current set. While Double Dance Rhydon is arguably one of the best sweepers in the meta, offering both offensive and defensive role compression, the fact that you know what set it is makes it far more manageable compared to Mesprit, as whilst on some teams its easy to see what set it is (rocker on a team without a rocker), knowing what offensive set its running could be game changing due to the different offensive sets breaking and beating different things. This tier also somewhat struggles with psychic types, due to the coverage they bring and the fact that most 'resists', aren't actually resists (see dark types and things such as Steelix) meaning it can be progressively harder to check, with sets starting to adapt vs it. Something which Rhydon hasn't really made it do.

The Stealth Rock set also has to be afraid of Toxic, Klinklang, Rotom, Mega Audino, Ferroseed, SD Samurott, and about ten or fifteen other mons. It's passive and doesn't punish stuff well if it's without t-wave and can't hit it super-effectively with Psychic.
Again, I really don't like this reasoning. T-wave essentially cripples 2 of these mons and coverage with things like Knock Off and Energy Ball, both of which are viable on the defensive sets, also dent/cripple these mons too, and considering that scouting for coverage essentially could be a coin toss makes it harder to deal with. If you always knew what coverage it was, or know from experience vs a specific opponent what it's running, then yes, it's easier to switch-in to and check/counter; but in a blind game vs a team that you haven't faced, you can't say that you'd switch something like Klinklang in without scouting for its coverage prior.

Well single handedly it's not mesprit that causes pursuit to be such a big thing, because musharna, xatu, rotom, jynx, anything physically weak that can be outsped and finished off with pursuit basically is a reason to use pursuit and why it's such a huge importance in the tier. I can understand your pov whereby you think it's skill-less building because of how easy mesprit fits onto many teams, but at the same time i don't think that mesprit is suspect worthy.
Wanted to talk about what Teddeh said too. Pursuit has risen in popularity recently, yes, but given that only 2 mons can use it effectively being Liepard and Skuntank, I don't think Tauros uses it effectively fyi because its other coverage is way less situtational and far more valuable, means that its usability is limited. The fact that the defensive set can get away for almost free with Colbur and heavily dent Liepard in the process, I find the fact that the offensive sets, Specs for example, forces a coin flip on both Liepard and Skuntank meaning it has the abilty to get away scotfree.

Finally, again I'm not saying it's broken, but the only set that I would ever consider it being broken with, is the Choice Specs set. Immediate power with great coverage and few reliable switch-ins essentially make it the most deadly set that Mesprit can run, with the answer to it being revenge killing or having a dedicated counter, Bronzor for example (which can be beaten with potential coverage), making it harder to build against.

I would however be interested in what others think about Mesprit's place in the tier and if it's overbearing in their minds n_n
 
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Kiyo

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hi the council is currently revisiting the issue of baton pass in our tier

Currently the plan is to discuss the issue over the next week or so to determine if anything needs to be done, and if so, what.

I'd like to use this np: thread as a forum for you, the community, to add any insight you may have into the issue. If you have any questions for myself, Ryan, or any council member this would also be the place to ask them.
 

Disjunction

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I mean, at this point I feel as if the topic of Baton Pass is so overloaded it'll be hard to find any new points to bring up both in favor of and against it.

We've been here numerous times before, both as the NU community and the Smogon community as a whole in threads like this and this and this. NU has faced no recent insurgence of obnoxious strategies involving Baton Pass unless you count those Cosmic Power pass or Infestation Mr. Mime teams. So, it becomes a question of what is Baton Pass's influence on the tier. While I'm not council, I would like to propose some ideas to get people (council specifically) thinking.

- Are any remaining Baton Pass strategies in the tier relevant, hallmark pillars for a healthy nu metagame in your eyes, and, if not, are you still fine with removing them as collateral because of the immense impact of the previous Baton Pass-related issues?
- Are you comfortable with the existence of a complex clause which could be used as an argument for any other proposed complex clauses in the future?

In my opinion, this is not a matter of whether or not Baton Pass is broken in NU anymore. It is a matter of policy and setting precedent. It's simple: the move Baton Pass has been the root cause for each broken Baton Pass strategy, and, if you agree that a complex ban only causes unhealthy precedent, then you ban the move. However, if the council agrees that a complex ban in this situation is fine because it preserves an important part of the tier (I.E. drypassing which exists on maybe 2 relevant Pokemon right now and the more common SD/CM Pass) then we shouldn't do anything.

I'm fine with either option. Both options achieve a relatively similar end and promote a healthy tier in their own regard. Whatever the council decides is fine by me.
 

Kiyo

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I mean, at this point I feel as if the topic of Baton Pass is so overloaded it'll be hard to find any new points to bring up both in favor of and against it.
- Are any remaining Baton Pass strategies in the tier relevant, hallmark pillars for a healthy nu metagame in your eyes, and, if not, are you still fine with removing them as collateral because of the immense impact of the previous Baton Pass-related issues?
- Are you comfortable with the existence of a complex clause which could be used as an argument for any other proposed complex clauses in the future?

In my opinion, this is not a matter of whether or not Baton Pass is broken in NU anymore. It is a matter of policy and setting precedent. It's simple: the move Baton Pass has been the root cause for each broken Baton Pass strategy, and, if you agree that a complex ban only causes unhealthy precedent, then you ban the move. However, if the council agrees that a complex ban in this situation is fine because it preserves an important part of the tier (I.E. drypassing which exists on maybe 2 relevant Pokemon right now and the more common SD/CM Pass) then we shouldn't do anything.
This pretty accurately sums up my thoughts. I dislike our current clause due to it being complex in nature and I personally feel for the sake of tiering policy we should attempt to simplify ORAS NU's banlist as much as possible, provided it makes sense to. I also don't want to have to revisit a dead metagame if for some reason we goofed up and cosmic power pass or some other garbage strategy becomes a problem.

I'm for banning the move for the sake of simplicity and to avoid any potential issues with a move shown time and time again to be the root of a broken strategy.
 

erisia

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This pretty accurately sums up my thoughts. I dislike our current clause due to it being complex in nature and I personally feel for the sake of tiering policy we should attempt to simplify ORAS NU's banlist as much as possible, provided it makes sense to. I also don't want to have to revisit a dead metagame if for some reason we goofed up and cosmic power pass or some other garbage strategy becomes a problem.

I'm for banning the move for the sake of simplicity and to avoid any potential issues with a move shown time and time again to be the root of a broken strategy.
This is how I feel tbh, our Baton Pass clause is really long and Xatu as a whole just makes Baton Pass kind of busted considering how good it is here, how it gets reliable recovery, pseudo status immunity, and Stored Power. I'm not really looking forward to someone coming to our more or less settled metagame and breaking it with a super dumb team that wins at matchup (dead metas don't really favor catering to niche strategies from my experience so odds are Haze, Clear Smog, and Roar will see less usage overall outside of the top players).

Also I've been using Cosmic Pass in SMNU recently and it's dumb AF.
 
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I don't agree with banning baton pass altogether as by itself it's not a broken move
When people start adding defensive boosts and whatnot, that usually end up in an xatu sweeping your entire team, that's what it gets broken
Certain mons like mawile and musharana can use it as a from of volt turning and I would not see them deprived of that because of the area of baton pass that is broken
Banning baton pass plus any boost is where I feel we should go, but I'm open to seeing what others have to say on the banning it altogether fence
 

erisia

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I don't think the argument that you can use it in non-broken ways justifies the cases where it can be used in broken ways (of which the number has decreased as we've subsequently banned them). The fact that the move is so non-binary means you can't really compare it to suspecting other moves such as Swagger and Double Team, since its brokenness is almost entirely context dependent rather than being objective. I agree that just banning baton pass + boosts probably results in the best overall metagame but at that point the move is so nerfed it's basically a cartridge hack, and I think having a consistent Baton Pass Clause across all tiers (no stats will be passed by the move) is appropriate in the same vein that something like Sleep Clause is appropriate. It's up to use whether that's something we want to do or not. I don't think it sets any precedent as Baton Pass is an entirely unique phenomenon.
 
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Disjunction

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I don't even agree that dry passing is relevant enough in NU to preserve. The only Pokemon that is super reliant on it is defensive Mawile, which is an incredibly niche choice for a Stealth Rock user nowadays. You'll still use defensive Mawile in the ultra specific situation you would want to use it (need a soft normal check that can switch in on Knock Off) and it'll still do what it needs to do. Pivot Musharna has been awful for almost 2 years now, and CM Musharna still has plenty of options for its fourth slot. Outside of that you have incredibly niche stuff that doesn't matter like CB Flareon, Rapidash, and Dodrio that can use it.

None of these Pokemon's loose "dependency" on Baton Pass is integral to the tier or relevant enough to justify a complex clause. I'm fine with arguing that strategies like SD Pass or CM Pass could provide a healthier dimension to the tier (and that is, in my opinion, the only legitimate argument left that could justify keeping a complex clause), but I do not agree with the idea that dry passing is worth preserving in NU. Slightly decreasing the viability of 4 PU mons + 1 BL4 mon should not be cause for a complicated ruling.
 

yogi

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just ban everything else so its not broken...

no but either outright ban it, even tho itll impact a few mons, its still a broken move; which is what ive come to see

drypass can be cool if agreed towards keeping it tho
 
There is barely an argument to keep Baton Pass if it can't be used with boosting moves. It's very all or nothing. It adds the tiniest amount of viability to just a handful of mons which honestly can probably find other moves for that slot.
I'm usually very anti-ban, just stop being a baby and deal with it, but BP has just proven to be so toxic and it's been an issue for a ridiculous amount of time.

It's time to make a choice BEFORE we have a new tier. Start the tier off right, whether that be with or without it. A choice should be made.
 
I don't even agree that dry passing is relevant enough in NU to preserve. The only Pokemon that is super reliant on it is defensive Mawile, which is an incredibly niche choice for a Stealth Rock user nowadays. You'll still use defensive Mawile in the ultra specific situation you would want to use it (need a soft normal check that can switch in on Knock Off) and it'll still do what it needs to do. Pivot Musharna has been awful for almost 2 years now, and CM Musharna still has plenty of options for its fourth slot. Outside of that you have incredibly niche stuff that doesn't matter like CB Flareon, Rapidash, and Dodrio that can use it.

None of these Pokemon's loose "dependency" on Baton Pass is integral to the tier or relevant enough to justify a complex clause. I'm fine with arguing that strategies like SD Pass or CM Pass could provide a healthier dimension to the tier (and that is, in my opinion, the only legitimate argument left that could justify keeping a complex clause), but I do not agree with the idea that dry passing is worth preserving in NU. Slightly decreasing the viability of 4 PU mons + 1 BL4 mon should not be cause for a complicated ruling.
I don't think this is necessarily fair
Yeah a very small number of Pokemon actually dry pass in nu currently but whos to say that'll be the same in the future?
I'm not down to ban a move when it in itself isn't broken and you're limiting what future Pokemon might bring to the tier if they have said move
We've been banning certain things in conjunction with baton pass already, I don't see the issue with just banning it and a boosting move
Yeah it's complex as hell but it's for the sake of preserving a move that sure, you might not use it, but others might, and no argument can be made for it being broken without passing boosts
 

ManOfMany

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I agree that the NU tier's ban is too complex.

I think it should be shortened from "No passing speed + other boosts" to just "No passing speed".

It's simple and effective, without actively harming all the pokemon who could actually use Baton Passing non speed boosts as a viable strategy. Okay, I get it, strategies like CMPass and SDPass are not that seen in the high-level NU metagame* so banning them wouldn't be a huge deal. However, just because they are not seen much does not mean they do not have any potential to be seen. Lesser known strategies like SD passing with Leafeon, Bulk Up Passing with Floatzel, Coilpassing with Huntail, passing Substitutes, and even gimmicks like Lopunnypass and Mr.Mimepass. These are all interesting strategies that do not negatively harm the tier (unless you consider MrMimepass or Lopunnypass broken). Smogon's policy is not to accept bans that cause fairly significant collateral damage so I don't see why you want to do this now.

Oh and also, besides in UU (where Celebi should have been banned instead of BP), none of the other tiers believe that passing boosts other than speed boosts are broken.
 

Josh

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Oh and also, besides in UU (where Celebi should have been banned instead of BP), none of the other tiers believe that passing boosts other than speed boosts are broken.
It doesnt matter if passing things other than speed is broken and that's what a lot of you seemingly can't grasp. Take this for example:
and no argument can be made for it being broken without passing boosts
Let's see the argument for blaziken without speed boost being broken. Or the argument for torrent Greninja being broken. Or any other random example. Smogon doesn't try to make as many things as possible playable, it tries to make a competitive metagame. Maybe Baton Pass isn't broken without speed passing, even assume it isn't -- even that sentence is implying Baton Pass is broken. You shouldn't need to nerf something to make it balanced, almost everything can be nerfed enough to be reasonable. RU has now banned Baton Pass outright among with UU. NU and PU should absolutely follow suit. The collateral damage thing is cute because in gen 6 I don't think a single mon in any tier was viable and would be made unviable without being able to drypass. Sure, mew/medicham/mawile/sylveon/whatever can use it, but it isn't life changing on any of them except MAYBE medicham. Possibly one mon in all of gen 6 is "collateral" from banning drypassing, and the reward is not having a stupid complex clause that differs in tiers and doesn't exist for any good reason.

I understand why nu edited their clause initially which sparked all of the BP discussion, don't get me wrong. It wasn't until after that when people finally realized how dumb the whole Baton Pass clause is. The tier leaders and council are definitely not being faulted for not banning it before, but now UU and RU have both banned the move, and it's time to follow suit and end ORAS on a good note. As someone said, having to come back in 2 years and retroactively banning cosmic passing or cm passing or whatever is stupid and should never be a concern. BP has proven to be a broken move and it's time for it to go.
 

Aberforth

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Oh and also, besides in UU (where Celebi should have been banned instead of BP), none of the other tiers believe that passing boosts other than speed boosts are broken.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...baton-pass-banned.3583022/page-2#post-7137677'

I've been pretty strongly for banning BP for a long time now, nothing has changed, it's still a complex ban that should not exist that sets a terrible precedent of nerfing things rather than banning them, and BP has been repeatedly the centre of broken strategies, to the point where it's been nerfed about 6 times.
 

yogi

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It doesnt matter if passing things other than speed is broken and that's what a lot of you seemingly can't grasp. Take this for example:

Let's see the argument for blaziken without speed boost being broken. Or the argument for torrent Greninja being broken. Or any other random example. Smogon doesn't try to make as many things as possible playable, it tries to make a competitive metagame. Maybe Baton Pass isn't broken without speed passing, even assume it isn't -- even that sentence is implying Baton Pass is broken. You shouldn't need to nerf something to make it balanced, almost everything can be nerfed enough to be reasonable. RU has now banned Baton Pass outright among with UU. NU and PU should absolutely follow suit. The collateral damage thing is cute because in gen 6 I don't think a single mon in any tier was viable and would be made unviable without being able to drypass. Sure, mew/medicham/mawile/sylveon/whatever can use it, but it isn't life changing on any of them except MAYBE medicham. Possibly one mon in all of gen 6 is "collateral" from banning drypassing, and the reward is not having a stupid complex clause that differs in tiers and doesn't exist for any good reason.

I understand why nu edited their clause initially which sparked all of the BP discussion, don't get me wrong. It wasn't until after that when people finally realized how dumb the whole Baton Pass clause is. The tier leaders and council are definitely not being faulted for not banning it before, but now UU and RU have both banned the move, and it's time to follow suit and end ORAS on a good note. As someone said, having to come back in 2 years and retroactively banning cosmic passing or cm passing or whatever is stupid and should never be a concern. BP has proven to be a broken move and it's time for it to go.
i personally hate this being used as a general comparison and ive seen it used time and time again; even as an argument against dry passing. it is not a good comparison.

you're essentially comparing something that would make tiering more subjective and illogical to a ban that isnt, and bear with me on this one, nearly as subjective. making a comparison to how banning/not banning a mon based on a certain ability is like saying you could tier a mon based on what moveset it can use. banning certain aspects of baton pass (im pro ban fwiw) isnt as subjective as after its banned, it generally will stay that way; unlike something such as banning certain abilities (yes ik weather abilities like drought and drizzle are special snowflakes but their singling out was justified) which would in essence lead to way more bac and forth discussion and most likely lead to extremely constant revision.

i actually agree with the rest of it, but for the love of god can people stop comparing things that really aren't comparable o.o
 

Josh

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I hate it too, you're not wrong, it's a bad comparison. There is no good comparison though because Baton Pass is unique so you've gotta reach for any kind of comparison.

The concept of passing stat boosts to things that otherwise could not acquire them is broken. This is evidenced by all of the historical clauses on Baton Pass and this is why Baton Pass should be banned. We shouldn't clause something just to keep it legal, losing dry passing is not some huge burden on the tier.
 

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