Metagame np: NU Stage 15 - The Climb | Baton Pass Banned

[ryan]

The NU council has decided to suspect Tauros this round.

The b value for the ladder will be 9 with a COIL requirement of 2750. Sample values with the corresponding statistics:

GXE - N
100 - 18
90 - 23
85 - 29
80 - 41
78 - 49
75 - 71
72 - 135
68 - THE LIMIT DOES NOT EXIST!

N=9.0/log2(40*GXE/2750)

Council reqs will be 2200 COIL.

Tauros has an unmatched combination of Speed, power, and coverage in NU. With Sheer Force and fantastic coverage, only the sturdiest of Normal resists can take on Tauros throughout any given match, and due to the dearth of priority and faster Pokemon in the tier, only a handful of Pokemon can reliably revenge kill it without giving up momentum. Tauros also has great bulk for an offensive Pokemon, which makes revenge killing it even more difficult.

Though debated among the council, we have decided that the suspect ladder will include Tauros. It's not too difficult to imagine the tier without Tauros, and we don't want players who do not frequently play the tier to have to theorymon what it would be like to face Tauros.

Tagging The Immortal for the suspect ladder.

RULES FOR POSTING IN THIS THREAD

1. No one liners nor uninformed posts;
2. No discussion on other potential suspects;
3. No discussion on the suspect process;
4. You are required to make respectful posts;
5. You are required to read this thread before posting.

Failure to follow these simple guidelines will result into your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.

If you have any questions feel free to ask below.

The suspect will end two weeks from tomorrow: Sunday, July 24th at 11:59 PM EST.

 

[ryan]

also posting to emphasize NO ONE-LINERS THANKS

 

[The Immortal]

Ladder up

 

[Beta.]

I've been laddering a bit with Tauros, and as a preface, I am ass at mons. The only reason I win is because of matchup. The fact that I can single handedly win games with Tauros where I should have lost is really stupid. The fact that Tauros has an answer to what should be every one of it's counters is really stupid. How I can run fire blast on a 40 special attacking mon and manage to get rid of most of every single one of the counters that come across is quite stupid. It's high speed tier makes the best answer to a Tauros is another tauros without a switch in, a bulky normal, or situational ghost levitate mons; where if you run zen headbutt, you can deal with those counters no problem.

While I need Tauros to win, it is stupid and really shouldn't be apart of the meta. The other fact that it is the only S rank mon in the viability rankings is not a major factor, but it is stupid. It's not over-centralizing the metagame, but it is broken.

 

[noobcubed]

I'm not so sure Tauros "has no counters". Answers like Regirock or defensive Rotom, for example, seem to be pretty solid responses, though it is true that they have no reliable recovery and hence are prone to being worn down. Compare it to, say, Zangoose, which really has no counters (bar Mawile), but is quite manageable because it dies so quickly. Tauros is less powerful, but faster, and has much more survivability because it has fair bulk, but more importantly because it generally forces switches, and every turn the opponent switches is a turn when Tauros is not attacked. This means that Tauros will have several chances to break defensive cores throughout the match, particularly if it has VoltTurn/Healing Wish support, and may muscle through eventually if it doesn't get the job done first time round.

If anything, though, offence is the playstyle that suffers with it the most, as it has no real switch-ins with much offensive presence (bar Rhydon, maybe) and Tauros typically outspeeds 4/6 members of an offence team & threatens to OHKO them with no or minimal prior damage. Every offense team I have had recently has ended up using Scarf Ape to at least try and wrestle back some momentum when Tauros gets a KO (and it invariably gets at least one).

Over all, I'm not sure as NU isn't my primary tier and I guess I'll leave it to those with more experience.

 

[steainer]

After playing the NU ladder for a while, I think that its sheer force + life orb combo along with its base 110 speed is too much for the tier to handle. Even the bulkiest physical walls of NU such as Weezing and Steelix have great difficulty switching into this mon as they are 2HKOed by Zen Headbutt and Fire Blast respectively after some prior damage. It also has decent bulk to enable it to tank a LO Mach Punch from hitmonchan from full and OHKO it in return. As only Swellow outspeeds it and it has bulk to tank priority hits, the only other offensive checks to it are scarfers, which are easy to capitalize on once they are locked into a move. Taurous lacks no reliable counters in the tier besides maybe Regirock and only has a few shaky checks within the tier, such as scarfed Primeape. It can easily destroy balance teams with its amazing speed and it's fantastic coverage options. Thus, I feel that it is indeed too much for the NU tier to handle and it should be banned. But then again, it's my opinion and feel free to agree/ disagree with it.

 

[kay]

Okay, I really wanted to wait for some more of the pro-bans to come out, but I'd like to start with some things after reading some of the posts. Tauros is not a new threat and it's been something that's been apart of NU since basically the dawn of time. This isn't a mon that is "Too much for the tier to deal with" as we've been dealing with it since the tier of ORAS without much issues until recently. I'm just going to try and quote some posts here and try to fix out some misconceptions people seem to have.

The fact that I can single handedly win games with Tauros where I should have lost is really stupid.

110 speed and good power isn't something that should single handled win you a game vs good players. People should be prepping for this mon, and honestly I think if you subbed Tauros for any strong fast attacker like Archeops, Floatzel, or even Specs Swellow you'll have the same results.

The fact that Tauros has an answer to what should be every one of it's counters is really stupid.

The ability to run a lot of coverage is what makes it so great yeah. But the problem isn't in fighting Tauros, it's prepping for it. If you have Iron Tail then things like Ferroseed will wall you out, if you have Fire Blast then things like Regirock or Rhydon will wall you out. Teams that are built to fight the top tier mon in Tauros will not auto-lose due to the coverage it can run.

It's high speed tier makes the best answer to a Tauros is another tauros without a switch in

We have things that can revenge kill it. Floatzel is really under looked so far in this suspect thread. Being able to out pace it without the need for scarf and force it out with Focus Blast si great. Things like Archeops can be a good offensive switch in if you bring it in on a rock climb or an EQ. There are also quite a few defensive answers to it, the best one being Gourgeist who still even beats out Fire Blast variants.

I think that its sheer force + life orb combo along with its base 110 speed is too much for the tier to handle.

Like I said above, this isn't a new threat. It's something that has been in NU since long before ORAS, and it's always been something we've handled and if we don't ban it it's something we'll be able to handle in the future. It does have counters both offensively and defensively so I don't think it's something that "this tier just can't handle."

Even the bulkiest physical walls of NU such as Weezing and Steelix have great difficulty switching into this mon as they are 2HKOed by Zen Headbutt and Fire Blast respectively after some prior damage.

This is I think you picking the wrong mons for the wrong role. You don't pick Weezing as your Tauros switch in because of all the Zen Headbutt variants people use. You run things like Ferroseed or Steelix for Iron Tail variants, bulky rocks like Regirock and Rhydon for Fire Blast variants, defensive Rotom, Gourgeist, Mismagius and Archeops as offensive switch ins. Its about picking the right mons for the role.

As only Swellow outspeeds it and it has bulk to tank priority hits, the only other offensive checks to it are scarfers, which are easy to capitalize on once they are locked into a move.

Floatzel and anything that can live a hit and force it out like Archeops and Rhydon say hello.

Taurous lacks no reliable counters in the tier besides maybe Regirock and only has a few shaky checks within the tier, such as scarfed Primeape.

This isn't true at all thankfully! We have lots in the tier to deal with it as listed above!


I just wanted to clear some misconceptions people have that it's some unbeatable mon with no counters offensively or defensively because we do have quite a bit for it, it's just a matter of knowing how to build around it. Tauros is by no means an auto-win kind of mon, and something I hope someone else touches on that's more anti-ban then myself is that it's not a reliable mon a lot of the time. It banks on shaky accuracy on almost all its moves and can cost you games just as it can win you games. I'm leaning more on no-ban right now but that might change after playing the suspect more.

 

[erisia]

I'd like to reiterate Kay's point by quoting this from the checks compendium.

Tauros Checks
GSI:

SSI:

(XL)

NSI:

For a start, Tauros has general switch ins, which some mons like Jynx, Samurott, and even Mesprit don't due to the variety of options they can run (Specs makes mincemeat of Skuntank if it tries to switch in, for instance). Musharna in particular gets slept on but it can avoid the 2HKO from basically anything with Lefties and Thunder Wave Tauros, rendering it useless. Secondly, there are LOTs of good checks available; Tauros can't run all of its coverage at once, so if you can scout what moveset it's running from team preview (i.e. a team that lacks a Mega Audino check probably runs Iron Tail Tauros) then it becomes a lot easier to deal with. There are even plenty of offensive checks such as Archeops, Floatzel, Swellow, and KangaSpikes, not to mention Choice Scarf users. I'll make a more detailed post later in the suspect test once I've (hopefully) gotten reqs but at the moment I'm standing by NO BAN.

Also change the song to this come on guys:

 

[Machineae]

This suspect ladder has been up for a day. Its absolutely ridiculous that after a day new players can have a firm pro ban opinion. We've been working with/around Tauros for a long time now, its offensive power is nothing new and it has more than a couple checks. This is without taking into account the fact that pretty much every move Tauros runs besides EQ has shaky accuracy and is prone to screwing you over.

I usually abstain from bothering to vote but this time around I'll for sure be getting reqs and voting. No Ban

 

[PrinceLucian]

Tauros has always been a solid pokemon overall, and with its combination of coverage,speed and a decent atk it finds its place on most archetypes. It can act as both wallbreaker and cleaner, since it usually always forces switches and its hard to switch into, considering how easily some of its checks can get weakened by coverage moves like Iron Tail/Fire Blast. Tauros has great matchup vs offense/bulky offense since it can Ohko/2Ko most of offensive threats, and usually and just run through teams which normal resists are weakened enough. Only things outspeeding tauros are Floatzel/Swellow which arent really common, Scarf Rotom as ghost type can revenge it but gets 2 koed by Zen headbutt so its not the safest check,mismagius gets bopped by coverage as well. Some of the good hard checks include eviolite Rhydon, musharna,steelix,gourgeist. I wasnt sure on what ill vote about Tauros, since its ban would result in a different metagame, its a normal type that every team needs a hard check or just another soft one, things like Cradily that would usually counter swellow/kangaskhan get easily killed by Iron tail,while ferroseed cant eat more than one Fire blast. Archeops is another pokemon sitting in 110 speed tier, it would no longer need to risk the speed ties, and there will be new speed controls for tier. Most of Tauros moves dont have the best accuracy which can be pretty annoying, its Spdef isnt the best so it can be revenged after miss, but then again its physical bulk is above average for a fast threat, so it kinda balances out. Tauros has no real drawbacks of using it, its the best pokemon in tier,and meta defining. It will open more space for teambuilding, and so far im leading towards Ban.

 

[Aasgier]

Well, Tauros is a long term threat obviously but quite a few checks and counters are gone or rendered irrelevant due to meta shifts. If I look at what I used to check Tauros in the past, none of these mons are in the tier anymore, or not usable for other reasons (Ty, Knock Off buff). The only exception is Floatzel but it's a shaky check at best... Brick Break doesn't OHKO and Focus Blast prefers to blast a hole in the wall instead of hitting Tauros.

Dunno, Tauros seems stronger than before but like in previous suspect, I do not deem myself skilled enough to vote (even if I get reqs).

But I just wanted to say that despite Tauros has been in the tier for a long time, and it was not a problem in the past, the meta has changed. So judging Tauros on him being manageable in the past feels like a shaky argument to me, and I feel like the anti-ban side has to come up with a better argument.

 

[erisia]

The only exception is Floatzel but it's a shaky check at best... Brick Break doesn't OHKO and Focus Blast prefers to blast a hole in the wall instead of hitting Tauros.

No-one runs Brick Break and Focus Blast is 70% accurate. Swellow is also the much more consistent offensive Tauros check, and most Choice Scarf users can KO Tauros if necessary. I agree that suspects and tier shifts have made this thing more dangerous but it's debateable whether this has made Tauros overwhelmingly powerful or just better.

 

[ryan]

Tauros's presence in the tier over a long period of time leads people to believe it is and has always been easily manageable. But this isn't the first Pokemon in this tier that has been around for a long time but has always been difficult to handle. Sawk had been NU for all of BW and XY, remained the same throughout that entire period barring the transition from BW to XY where it got Knock Off, and remained in the tier until it was suspected in ORAS. Don't mistake Tauros's long history in the tier for it being balanced; just like Sawk, it has never been easy to prepare for.

If you think it has been balanced all that time and still is now, that's fine. I'd love to hear more about that. But don't let Tauros's tenure cloud your judgement.

Also, saying it's ridiculous for players to have a firm pro-ban opinion after one day and then following it up with "we've been dealing with it for ages" is contradictory. We absolutely have been dealing with it for a long time: that's why everybody feels so strongly one way or the other so quickly.

 

[Machineae]

You're missing the part where I said new players. If someone is brand new to the tier and thus coming to play because of our suspect (which happens ALL THE TIME) then playing here for one day really should not qualify them to have such a firm judgement. It's different from someone who's been here for a few months or even a few years and quickly passes judgement whichever way they may swing. They've been exposed to Tauros plenty as it's high up in the usage stats.

 

[Deeerpz]

No one in here said they're new to NU, just that they are bad at mons and don't play NU as their main tier.
Also Tauros has been a usable mon before it was suspected.

This kind of elitist attitude is really what keeps new players from entering the tier. It's mons, not rocket science, and everyone who has played NU for a while is capable of forming an opinion about Tauros. It's easy to see what it does, it's easy to see what makes it special over other normal types, it's easy to see what holds it back.

Personally, I think it's a stupid mon, because even well built teams can run lure coverage. If you take Sir Kays example, usually a team without a MDino check runs Iron Tail, but I have been in plenty of situations where that wouldn't matter, because they still ran fire blast, while having a Magmortar on a team, leaving your Ferrothorn to deal a fiery death. It's not common, but it happens, and even after having about 18 months of NU experience, I cannot for the life of me figure out what set the random mid ladder dude is going to run. And I think it's the councils job to balance all aspects of the ladder as well as possible, not just the higher % ranges.

All of that being said, Tauros is stupid to deal with, and it does centralize the meta game around it, but not to a point where it's actually restricting team building. Strong priority is easy to come by these days, bulky offense has made a comeback ever since Sawk's departure, so fitting something like a pivot Mush on a team isn't really a big issue any longer, we have very good ghost types, both offensively and defensively... Hell, we even have stab fighting priority in Mach Punch and Vacuum Wave. I don't like facing Tauros, especially because the odd Work Up variant tears through a lot of teams, but I will vote no ban.

 

[Beta.]

You're missing the part where I said new players. If someone is brand new to the tier and thus coming to play because of our suspect (which happens ALL THE TIME) then playing here for one day really should not qualify them to have such a firm judgement. It's different from someone who's been here for a few months or even a few years and quickly passes judgement whichever way they may swing. They've been exposed to Tauros plenty as it's high up in the usage stats.

I played NU alot in X/Y, the only reason I had stopped playing in ORAS was just due to me attempting to quit PS and quit mons/only play doubles. I am bad at mons, but know mons. I don't give a shit about me, but saying that a user's opinion isn't valid because they haven't been in the NU forums or room or tier or whatever is just wrong. I can't really say anything because my opinion is less valid because of my time off, but ater playing through a considerable bit of the ladder beforehand during the BP suspect test, post suspect, and now this suspect, followed by speaking regularly with more experienced NU players, I feel that my opinion should be valid, and if it's not, instead of saying that because I am new my opinion is invalid, tell me how I am wrong, I respect Sir Kay and erisia for saying what were wrong with my points, which I wanted to comment on some.

110 speed and good power isn't something that should single handled win you a game vs good players. People should be prepping for this mon, and honestly I think if you subbed Tauros for any strong fast attacker like Archeops, Floatzel, or even Specs Swellow you'll have the same results.

I agree with this point, but my point was not that I could have the same results with others mons. I may have been able to win with those mons, but these battles were more of tauros versus 4. These even included some of the No switch ins, mesprit and archeops, a musharna, and a garbodor. Even with two No switch ins and a situation switch in check, Tauros was able to clean sweep every mon after rocks. I did get lucky because none of my moves missed, but in a situation where I lost at teambuilder. tauros clean swept with ease. Now flaws with this point. This isn't every situation, and I do admit, this was pure luck and bullshit, but the fact that he has three mons that were on the checks list, and I handled all of them with no problem tells me there was a problem with the mon. My opinion was not made at this point, as this was pre suspect.

I really can't stress enough that this isn't the situation for every battle, and that this is a terrible example. But my main point was not that it simply brought me back from a loss, but these were unwinnable situations that I brought back with a simple tauros sweep on multiple occasions.

We have things that can revenge kill it. Floatzel is really under looked so far in this suspect thread. Being able to out pace it without the need for scarf and force it out with Focus Blast is great. Things like Archeops can be a good offensive switch in if you bring it in on a rock climb or an EQ. There are also quite a few defensive answers to it, the best one being Gourgeist who still even beats out Fire Blast variants.

The main thing I see wrong with this situation is that it can be a good revenge killer, but this answer presented (may not be saying, but is telling me) that you need to lose a mon in order to kill it, or in other situations, predict the move it will use to switch it in (Not like aegislash where it was 50/50, but in similar pre-tenses where it is a roll of the dice to kill it) is not healthy.

I was going to write something about archetypes and prepping for mons, but theorymonning is not something to ban over, kids. It was something along the lines of this. If you prep for leech seeders like ferro, and ghost will o wisps like mismagius you would in theory account for gourgeist. But if you account for speedy normal attackers in the meta, say kangaskhan, you aren't accounting for tauros, and have to run other things so that you can account for tauros, but this is theorymonning, I don't stand by this point as it is stupid, and I have no good words to put here, but might aswell finish what I started.

I mean i I think o actual good arguments I will type them, but right now I can't, I agree with most of your points, kay, but due to occasions I've had with tauros, and talking with it with experienced friends, for now, I am still leaning towards ban. My opinion could still change, as most of my points may have been bad, especially the theorymon one that nobody should take seriously.

Also I was wrong, jynx is S too, fuck sub cm jynx, nasty plot sucks too. Thanks Peli.

 

[Teddeh]

Hi there.
Tauros, as many of you may know, is a fast and powerful threat and rightfully so it is S rank. But where do we draw the line between "good pokemon" and "broken pokemon"? Now I'm not exactly sure what may make a broken pokemon, but does tauros fit under the bracket of unmanageable or broken? I would argue that this is not the case. It has a big handful of checks + a few very good counters that are certainly not bad pokemon and can fit on teams remarkably easily. Secondly, I'd also like to say that the theorymon side of tauros is painful to say the least. In practice, it is, at least in my opinion, not this super amazing pokemon that can sweep effortlessly. It has its flaws and it often is very limited in some match ups. For example, it's very inconsistent at spamming its moves, as apart from earthquake, they are all 85% or 90%, which makes a huge difference in your confidence when using this pokemon. If you are attempting to win a pokemon match, you want a 100% win chance, not 85. Thirdly, it doesn't always get the prediction correct as you, as a player, can choose to predict the tauros' coverage move and make your switch in appropriately. Saying it has all these amazing coverage moves is one thing, but chances are that if you can come in with a resisted rock climb or switch to a levitater on an EQ, then it is forced out and it cannot spam its moves so easily as people suggest.

My next point is about people going into a suspect with the idea of banning tauros to "spice up the meta", so to speak. Is this really a good reason to ban a pokemon? I personally think banning should always be a last resort to something that is too good for a tier to handle, but tauros is not this and has plenty of counterplay with the huge variety of normal resists + immunities that are extremely common in the tier.

As for the ladder is concerned, I have played just under 20 matches and I have only played a tauros once. I don't think this really is an accurate representation of what tauros does for NU with new players just doing the suspect for the TC badge when they never actually face a tauros properly on the ladder. Rather irritating to say the least.

Anyway if I maintain the motivation to continue laddering, I'll be voting no ban most likely. I'm not convinced that by any means tauros is a broken pokemon or that "base 110 speed and lo sheer force is too much for the tier to handle" (the tier has been handling it for the last 2 years >_>) and a large majority of the playerbase can probably agree with this too.

Oh and one last thing, fuck speed pass. Thank you for banning it n_n

 

[Aasgier]

No-one runs Brick Break and Focus Blast is 70% accurate. Swellow is also the much more consistent offensive Tauros check, and most Choice Scarf users can KO Tauros if necessary. I agree that suspects and tier shifts have made this thing more dangerous but it's debateable whether this has made Tauros overwhelmingly powerful or just better.

Yeah but I didn't use Swellow much except very recently in my newest team that somehow is still weak to Tauros (especially a Scarfed variant), but I used Floatzel a lot during early ORAS. And if you read what I wrote, I was talking about Pokémon I actually used to potentially check Tauros. Gurdurr, Sceptile, Sneasel, Floatzel, Scolipede, Sawk, Gallade and Gardevoir (Scarfed), Tangela and Misdreavus (Eviolite)... most of these are (long) gone. Only Floatzel remains. Sure the tier changed and sure we have quite a few (better) checks, like Swellow who even gained a Choice Specs Boomburst to abuse (and is a more reliable check to Tauros than the old Guts Swellow, because of less residual damage).

Not that Swellow is perfect, especially without hazards:

Hide

Swellow's Facade does not always OHKO:
252 Atk Guts Swellow Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tauros: 268-316 (92 - 108.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

Nor does Boomburst.
252 SpA Choice Specs Swellow Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Tauros: 283-334 (97.2 - 114.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

This is with a negative nature.

Something else is to note is, we also gained other would-be checks, but the meta was unfavourable enough to them from the moment they entered the tier (Dusclops and Quilladin) so ehr... meh. They are just too compromised when performing their role as physical checks... physical check + Eviolite does not work well together. I used them a bit, Dusclops just plain sucked. Quilladin is pretty good as long as it doesn't get hit with Knock Off.

 

[DnB]

i have to say, the suspect was really easy for me, played a team with specs mesprit + tauros, posted by Shadowtags in the sample teams thread because i was too lazy to build something on my own and ended up 38/9, had some crazy winstreaks for ~10-15 games, overall it took me 2-3hours
(also, another friend got the suspect with the same team, so good thing you guys accepted it in the sample teams thread)

like i said, i was using tauros myself and i think, its too much for the tier. way too many games were decided on tauros speedties or if rock climb hits or not, in general i think tauros is kinda risky to run, because 3/4 moves can miss and theres nothing more annoying than losing a safe game due to a rock climb miss.
The thing that makes tauros that strong is the combination of great offensive power and coverage, great speed and still decent bulk, which allows it to live prio-moves, even hitmonchans mach punch after rocks, so you cant even revenge it without using something like Swellow or a scarfer, which also often cant 1HKO tauros.

I'll probably vote ban, i think it will shift the meta into an even better direction than it already is (NU seems the most balanced for me atm), but it will be close call

 

[Maysoon]

While I can't and thus wont be able to try and ladder for this I do want to point out that while Tauros was manageable before and has been around forever the recent shifts in the meta have created an environment where Tauros can thrive. Tauros is the second fastest mon in the tier. If we look back to the Sceptile era Tauros wasn't much of a threat. But even before that we had Sawk who could reliably take a hit and OHKO if it absolutely had to.

Now if we look at the meta right now we have a mon that has speed. But the thing that differentiates it from Swellow is that it has the ability to beat all of the things it wants to in one set. What other mons could do that? Sceptile? Sawk? What I'm trying to say here is that while Tauros is manageable which I know it very well is. What it isn't is healthy. When teams have to run at least 2 slots for Tauros to ensure that they can cover all the options to me that is a red flag. What's even worse is that you have another 5 slots to dedicate for the purpose of weakening its checks.

This is another one of those suspects. It will probably be close especially considering the fact that there definitely is a good argument for both sides. But at the end of the day you just have to decide what will be best for the tier.

 

[Funbot28]

Tauros has always been a fearful wallbreaker in the tier that I feel has been slept on until Sawk and Sceptile were banned. The ladder lowering the benchmark for a high speed tier for an offensive mon in 110 Speed compared to 120. The gripe I have with it while laddering is that its just so easy to place Tauros on a team as a wallbreaker since it nukes practically half the tier with its Sheer Force + Life Orb boosted attacks, and I find it always seems to put in work in every game as it is so effective on applying offensive pressure especially when it is used in conjunction with other powerhouses such as Samurott, Swellow, and Jynx. I also feel that it puts a strain on teambuilding as yes it does have safe switchins as stated in an above post, but the thing with Tauros is that it can choose what switches safelty into it based on its multitude of coverage options that almost all get boosted by Sheer Force (being Fire Blast, Iron Tail, Zen Headbutt, Rock Slide, etc.. which means your Tauros check/counter you decided to run may not be as effective depending on what coverage move it decides to run.

Yes there are arguments on the shaky accuracy, however I feel that this argument is only looking through the scenario through a vaccum as its more probable that Tauros will hit these moves. Also others state that "we have been dealing with Tauros forever now", although I see it that Tauros's toxicity to the meta had been overshadowed by other previous broken mons in Sawk, Sceptile, and Speed Pass, and now its true potential can now truly be evident. I believe that banning Tauros will set NU in the right direction come Gen 7.

 

[kay]

While I can't and thus wont be able to try and ladder for this I do want to point out that while Tauros was manageable before and has been around forever the recent shifts in the meta have created an environment where Tauros can thrive.

I've seen a lot of people say something similar that it's the meta shifts the seemingly make to so much stronger in the past then it was now. But honest what has changed to make it so great now and so problematic? Only 3 things come to mind that I can think of: losing Sceptile, losing Gurdurr, and losing Mega Steelix.
The obvious problem with this is that Tauros has been in the tier much longer then Sceptile and Mega Steelix and we never relied on those to beat it in the past, and Gurdurr leaving hardly has pushed it into a spot where it's now so much harder to deal with as it couldn't even switch into Zen Headbutts.

Tauros hasn't hit some new peak, it's something that like Sawk that has been extremely good in NU for such a long time and is now getting a suspect. There wasn't some dynamic meta change that make Tauros some insane monster, it was just that it's always been good. I strongly urge people who are taking part in this suspect to understand that this wasn't a result of a meta shift. Tauros being this good is how it's almost always been, so if you want to judge Tauros please do it in the light that it has always been this good not that it's some new threat popping up or something has happened to the tier to make it unbeatable.


EDIT: Might as well throw in some of my own thoughts on this. Tauros isn't as easy to put on to a team as to say "I need something offensive. Oh I can just add Tauros!". It offers no defensive utility and puts a lot of pressure on the other parts of your team to take on the like of swellow, scarfers, things it can't hurt depending on your coverage, floatzel, and priority. It's not just an easy throw onto teams.
As far as splashable normals go I often find myself using Kangaskan a lot more if I just want a normal type attacker due to how much more splashable it is. Tauros also isn't reliable in the fact that it can miss in crucial moments. I've seen so many tournament matches where people have lost due to needing to hit 1 or 2 rock climbs and just missing them.

I'm not even fulling buying into the power to speed ratio making it broken. Specs Swellow reaches the same power with more speed and really good coverage too, it can even u-turn out on stuff it can't hurt for momentum. Having mons in NU with good power:speed ratios isn't new.

TL;DR/ final thoughts is that it's a high risk high reward mon with a lot of defensive and offensive checks in the tier. It can't reach perfect coverage and can find itself walled out by common things depending on the coverage it can run, meaning teams can prep for a lot of Tauros set without even needing to go out of their way to do so. I'm not even fulling buying into the power to speed ratio making it broken. Specs Swellow reaches the same power with more speed and really good coverage too, it can even u-turn out on stuff it can't hurt for momentum. Having mons in NU with good power:speed ratios isn't new. The power to speed isn't new to NU and it isn't alone in having an insane ratio.

 

[ryan]

Tauros does offer "defensive" utility in that its Speed tier allows it to check most other offensive Pokemon.

Regarding meta shifts: everything has worked in Taurus's favor. We lost Sceptile, which is faster; Sawk, which could check it thanks to Sturdy; Mega Steel, the best defensive check to Tauros; Gurdurr, which could switch in and threaten it; Togetic, which could switch in and Thunder Wave it; Sneasel, which could outspeed and do loads to it. Meanwhile, we gained Gastrodon, which needs nearly max/max in order to live two hits, is forced to Recover immediately even with max/max, and synergizes poorly with Rhydon, one of the best Tauros checks. We also gained Manectric, yet another offensive Pokemon that is slower and just dies. You can't blame people for mentioning meta shifts when all of them serve to make Tauros even better.

 

[Mac3]

I agree that there are a lot of checks to Tauros but all of those checks can be handled by 1 team member, which is a fighting type with access to a dark type move. Also tauros can run different sets than SF + LO like scarf which easily deals with the revenge killers. And if you want to deal with tauros you need 1 hard check and then 2-3 soft checks. Which restricts team building immensely. Tauros isn't broken but the tier would be so much healthier without it as then you can have different playstyles than balance and BO.

Tauros does offer "defensive" utility in that its Speed tier allows it to check most other offensive Pokemon.

Regarding meta shifts: everything has worked in Taurus's favor. We lost Sceptile, which is faster; Sawk, which could check it thanks to Sturdy; Mega Steel, the best defensive check to Tauros; Gurdurr, which could switch in and threaten it; Togetic, which could switch in and Thunder Wave it; Sneasel, which could outspeed and do loads to it. Meanwhile, we gained Gastrodon, which needs nearly max/max in order to live two hits, is forced to Recover immediately even with max/max, and synergizes poorly with Rhydon, one of the best Tauros checks. We also gained Manectric, yet another offensive Pokemon that is slower and just dies. You can't blame people for mentioning meta shifts when all of them serve to make Tauros even better.

All the tier shifts have also helped Tauros as ryan stated before.

 

[Blast]

I happen to be neutral on Tauros myself and I'm even leaning toward no ban, but some of the anti-ban arguments are being extremely unfair to Tauros.

The accuracy argument is silly. Yes, Tauros misses and it sucks when it happens, but that has zero impact whatsoever on Tauros's prominence and threat level. You don't play with or against Tauros assuming it's going to miss, and the fact that it misses sometimes (85% accuracy isn't even that low :|) shouldn't prevent people from using it. If a Pokemon's flaw doesn't legitimately affect its splashability, then that shouldn't be used as a reason against banning it.

Which brings me to my next point, because I actually think that's something Tauros lacks. The reason it's on a higher level than Swellow or any of the other fast Pokemon is because it has hardly any flaws significant enough to affect its splashability. Swellow relies on a Choice lock and is a free switchin for Rock-types, Floatzel and especially Archeops can't make use of their useful defensive typings due to their frailty and/or Defeatist, and anything slower than Tauros is, well, slower than Tauros. Tauros isn't (usually) Choice locked, it isn't a free switchin to anything, and it has very little aspects that can screw with team synergy. The closest I've seen to true "flaws" with Tauros is that it isn't fast enough to outspeed everything and that it can't hit the entire metagame in just 4 slots, but you can just as easily argue both of those showcase how good and influential it is.

Now I'm not saying it's something that you can just slap on teams for no reason, because that's ridiculous. But why should it have to be? Of course there are a lot of things you have to prep for when using Tauros, just like there was with Sceptile, or Sneasel, or literally anything else in existence. If you want to argue Tauros and its teammates have a harder time dealing with its checks, fine, but the fact that it has checks shouldn't be news to anybody.