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i think people need to look at the consequences of not banning tera and instead banning the abusers. it already too zygarde, and with it zacian is now banworthy. if we ban it, mmy loses its best offensive check, and as a mon that can potentially kill every single one of its checks, it can be pushed over the edge. so can miraidon and deoxys-a, and with them mega gengar and mmx, two nigh-unwallable mons held back by meh speed, now can murder stuff without most of their revenge killers. yeah, it's clear that not banning tera will make the meta spiral down into a chain of bans that will last god knows who.
and that's not all, as while its biggest offender was banned tera + trapping is still a deadly combination with stuff like tera fire mstorm fairy that force passive play. and tera ghost imposter memes on a common improofing method, while overall tera chansey can mess up many improofs.
really the list of egregious tera abusers is too big to list, and can only keep growing as stuff get banned: tera dragon specsmaw etern might kill everything after mmy/zacc/deoa/mirai go, pixilate flutter mane is another great abuser held back by zacian and even more problematic stuff can be cooked on the future, as on such a sandbox-like meta you never know when the next groundbreaking discovery might be made.
basically, no, banning tera abusers isn't an option, and no, the meta can't handle tera as it is right now. to all of you who voted DNB on the tera suspect, please reconsider it and don't look at the ladder that thinks fakespeed kyurem-black is the second coming of jesus christ as an example of how tera is actually used competitively.
I was probably one of the most vocal defenders of tera leading up to the first suspect, although over the course of the tests, I found that tera was really the problem, not on the ladder, but in this exact kind of snowball effect. I ended up voting Ban.
At this point, I'd personally be down for a quickban.
Hey, Shay's Fate here, I started playing NDBH after the ZygardeC ban, but I think I have enough experience to talk about the topic.
What is your stance on Tera in the metagame?
Tera should be banned because it removes the concept of checks/counters, Zacian has no counters besides fat Ability Shield Fur Coat users such as Dondozo or Giratina, which I've been using lately and works well even without Tera Water. But that's just one example, there's more pokemon such as PDon and DeoA which can break holes on teams by using Tera Fire
Do you think Tera should be retested? Why?
Yes, there's a large part of the playerbase, including me, who thinks tera is too much for the meta, which is why a restest should be done. If tera ends up not being baned it will be the community's choice and I will accept it even if I disagree.
The other option, which would be to ban ZacianC, could have terrible consequences that would lead to a downspiral of bans
What do you think has changed since the original suspect test, which ended in a no ban vote, that would justify retesting Tera?
I didn't play the meta before the suspect
One of the main things is what people call improofing. One of the most meta defining pieces is Imposter Chansey, which becomes your mon with your stats on switchin, but with chansey's base 250hp instead of whatever your mon has. Additionally, it can still use eviolite to get +1 Def and Spdef. One of the key things is running a team where each of the mons on your team can not only beat opposing pokemon, but that you have an answer to each of your own pokemon.
Hi everyone, im the guy who didnt get reqs because he spelled his name wrong. Today I will try and give my thoughts on tera in the current metagame (Sorry if my reasons/explanations suck im pretty bad at expressing myself.)
What is your stance on Tera in the metagame?
Tera is banworthy for turning losing matchups into winning ones. The amount of times I have seen chansey and blissey tera into ghost types in order to escape a trap is concerning. Offensively it also makes checking things impossible as sometimes you can narrowly avoid a 2hko but due to tera you still have to give up a pokemon. And ability shield can be removed by lures with knock off.
Do you think Tera should be retested? Why?
Honestly I dont want tera to be suspected I want it to be quickbanned/left to council vote as while I understand that many people have more positive opinions on tera in the metagame than I do, I do geniunely fear that if tera is not banned as was the case in National Dex OU and Ubers than this tiers health and longevity will be negatively impacted. I understand I am in the minority in thinking this and would still be satisfied if the response we got was a suspect test.
What do you think has changed since the original suspect test, which ended in a no ban vote, that would justify retesting Tera?
I think the rise of sets like steelworker zacian and the high amount of difficult to answer mons (with tera) like the kyurems and more people catching on that tera ghost is probably the best chansey/blissey tera due to the ability of being able to escape a trap.
Hopefullty tera is retested, and if it this time I will spell my name right.
One of the main things is what people call improofing. One of the most meta defining pieces is Imposter Chansey, which becomes your mon with your stats on switchin, but with chansey's base 250hp instead of whatever your mon has. Additionally, it can still use eviolite to get +1 Def and Spdef. One of the key things is running a team where each of the mons on your team can not only beat opposing pokemon, but that you have an answer to each of your own pokemon.
Is it the Tera to change type to become immune to their own attack, or is it something else?
If Tera is removed, then it will be harder to Improof, right?
Maybe to handle Imposter, if Imposter is gonna use Tera Ghost, have Pursuit on a Dark-type?
They have to Tera the turn before they can switch out, so you can Pursuit the next turn, and if they used Tera Ghost earlier in the match, then you can Pursuit them, especially off a strong Dark-Type, right?
forsenBussin What does Ability Shield have to do with Tera?
Is it the Tera to change type to become immune to their own attack, or is it something else?
If Tera is removed, then it will be harder to Improof, right?
Maybe to handle Imposter, if Imposter is gonna use Tera Ghost, have Pursuit on a Dark-type?
They have to Tera the turn before they can switch out, so you can Pursuit the next turn, and if they used Tera Ghost earlier in the match, then you can Pursuit them, especially off a strong Dark-Type, right?
forsenBussin What does Ability Shield have to do with Tera?
-generally improofing is done with other mons, for example ice scales dialga-o can improof specs hadron miraidon as it shrugs off any of its attacks and can trap it with anchor shot and whittle it down. another example is these two guys, as they can overwrite each other's weather and in zacian's case punish solar beam.
-as for self-improofing, tera can work and so do items, for example mega gengar can run spooky plate judgment so that it has a ghost move to hit stuff while imposter has no plate and thus a useless normal-type move.
-improofing defensive mons can be done by punishing them for getting free utility with stuff like status, trapping (imposter has max 20 pp and can get pp stalled) and knock off.
as for ability shield it's currently mandatory on physical walls because of tera steel tinted lens zacian-c, which 2HKOes everything with sunsteel (ability-ignoring move) otherwise.
Because we don't have any sample teams that are post zygarde ban legal, I figure I'll go an submit mine.
A to Z bulky balance
groundceus - traps and removes imps, handles most special attackers
Audino - knock and status absorber, hazard control, scout choice sets, slow pivots
dondozo - phys wall, spthief handles sweepers except gigas, who is handled by core, u-turn provides slow pivoting
gira - prankster, haze and tidy up are redunancy for setup and hazard control, parting shot lets walls in a little more safely, and heal order for longevity, also its job to handle pdon since dozo doesn't like solar beam
ZacC - cb tinted lens gigaton go brrr
mmy - scarf lets you outspeed regieleki: and ohko with headlong, zacc and ohko with armor cannon, deoA and ohko with astral, headlong also deals with steelceus and Dia-O
Groundceus can be swapped out for fairy or dark with little else changing, if you want an fc arc, you can swap to swampert, but with magic guard chloroblast being not uncommon, you'll need a different answer for mmy
audino can be swapped for Mgyara for a more offensive option with glare, fishious, spin and ceaseless/prot, but I like audino for its bulky pivoting
dozo could be swapped for Mbro, but Mbro's weaknessto wicked blow on sniper sets, spthief, ceaseless, etc. and its inability to tera makes that a less enticing prspect. You can also run waterceus or ghostceus
gira forms the dragon part of the dragon/fairy/steel defensive core I've got here, so you'd want another, especially to deal with Pdon, but there are certainly other mons that work
ZacC - once tera is banned, I'll probably switch to either protean mmx, or an SoR zac set, not sure which yet. In the meantime Magical Torque can be swapped for strength sap or knock off, but I've found it can make imp matchups more annoying
MMY can run specs over scarf with a speed boosting nature, in that case I'd swap armor cannon for a different move such as fleur cannon, to hit dark types. speaking of, collision course can be run over headlong rush depending on what arc form you're running. If you've tera'd groundceus, it no longer improofs collision course mmy though
MMY can also go a mixed magic guard set for more flexibility
enemy groundceus - team doesn't pack much for dealing with opposing groundceus other than audino's hazard control and mild chip. Can make the matchup harder. Groundceus self improofs with trapping, and if the imp tera ghosts, mmy starts threatening more, but if it can't easily pp stall, life gets harder, zac does ohko with gigaton after a layer of spikes or some other chip, so that's an option
Kartana - especially if paired with something like pixilate zac, or a dragon type attacker, it can quickly overwhelm dondozo by creating a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation with tera
Ting-Lu - team doesn't really have much for ting-lu rn, audino can usually deal with most utility it brings, but has very little in the wayof trying to wittle it down
Because we don't have any sample teams that are post zygarde ban legal, I figure I'll go an submit mine.
A to Z bulky balance
groundceus - traps and removes imps, handles most special attackers
Audino - knock and status absorber, hazard control, scout choice sets, slow pivots
dondozo - phys wall, spthief handles sweepers except gigas, who is handled by core, u-turn provides slow pivoting
gira - prankster, haze and tidy up are redunancy for setup and hazard control, parting shot lets walls in a little more safely, and heal order for longevity, also its job to handle pdon since dozo doesn't like solar beam
ZacC - cb tinted lens gigaton go brrr
mmy - scarf lets you outspeed regieleki: and ohko with headlong, zacc and ohko with armor cannon, deoA and ohko with astral, headlong also deals with steelceus and Dia-O
Groundceus can be swapped out for fairy or dark with little else changing, if you want an fc arc, you can swap to swampert, but with magic guard chloroblast being not uncommon, you'll need a different answer for mmy
audino can be swapped for Mgyara for a more offensive option with glare, fishious, spin and ceaseless/prot, but I like audino for its bulky pivoting
dozo could be swapped for Mbro, but Mbro's weaknessto wicked blow on sniper sets, spthief, ceaseless, etc. and its inability to tera makes that a less enticing prspect. You can also run waterceus or ghostceus
gira forms the dragon part of the dragon/fairy/steel defensive core I've got here, so you'd want another, especially to deal with Pdon, but there are certainly other mons that work
ZacC - once tera is banned, I'll probably switch to either protean mmx, or an SoR zac set, not sure which yet. In the meantime Magical Torque can be swapped for strength sap or knock off, but I've found it can make imp matchups more annoying
MMY can run specs over scarf with a speed boosting nature, in that case I'd swap armor cannon for a different move such as fleur cannon, to hit dark types. speaking of, collision course can be run over headlong rush depending on what arc form you're running. If you've tera'd groundceus, it no longer improofs collision course mmy though
enemy groundceus - team doesn't pack much for dealing with opposing groundceus other than audino's hazard control and mild chip. Can make the matchup harder. Groundceus self improofs with trapping, and if the imp tera ghosts, mmy starts threatening more, but if it can't easily pp stall, life gets harder, zac does ohko with gigaton after a layer of spikes or some other chip, so that's an option
Kartana - especially if paired with something like pixilate zac, or a dragon type attacker, it can quickly overwhelm dondozo by creating a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation with tera
Ting-Lu - team doesn't really have much for ting-lu rn, audino can usually deal with most utility it brings, but has very little in the wayof trying to wittle it down
Unfortunately, I had the chance to try out your team, but I am actually looking to try out a solid team, for consistency.
Does anyone have any tried and true strong teams they suggest?
Anyways, thanks for trying to help.
Er, maybe I should help you:
Have you tried Fur Coat Ho-Oh? It looks like it would take hits from all of the stuff you are weak to: Kartana, Arceus-Ground, Ting-Lu, and can Improof most of your team based on typing alone.
I looked it up and see it has strong Special Defense, kinda like Kyogre-Primal, so wouldn’t a Fur Coat on it makes it a good mixed wall?
If it packs Heavy-Duty Boots or you rely on Audino-Mega’s Rapid Spin to remove hazards, so it can use another item, it seems like a solid fit.
Maybe if you gave it V-Create over the Core Enforcer where it would replace Dondozo, it could also deal good damage in a pinch.
Also, Mortal Spin over Rapid Spin for Audino-Mega, allows you to check most of the mons you struggle with.
Unfortunately, I had the chance to try out your team, but I am actually looking to try out a solid team, for consistency.
Does anyone have any tried and true strong teams they suggest?
Anyways, thanks for trying to help.
Er, maybe I should help you:
Have you tried Fur Coat Ho-Oh? It looks like it would take hits from all of the stuff you are weak to: Kartana, Arceus-Ground, Ting-Lu, and can Improof most of your team based on typing alone.
I looked it up and see it has strong Special Defense, kinda like Kyogre-Primal, so wouldn’t a Fur Coat on it makes it a good mixed wall?
If it packs Heavy-Duty Boots or you rely on Audino-Mega’s Rapid Spin to remove hazards, so it can use another item, it seems like a solid fit.
Maybe if you gave it V-Create over the Core Enforcer where it would replace Dondozo, it could also deal good damage in a pinch.
Also, Mortal Spin over Rapid Spin for Audino-Mega, allows you to check most of the mons you struggle with.
Dozo is one of the few mons that can handle choice band tinted lens zacian right now, so I'm loathe to change it. It's still one of the most reliable walls. Ho-oh struggles with almost every Zac set, and it's the most common Mon in the tier, especially because it needs heavy duty boots to live, which means it can't deal with sunsteel strike. It also struggles against other common attackers like protean MMX and primsea palafin and Zac, as well as pheal gyara that run fishious rend
As for tried and true, I make up just under 10% of the accounts above 1400, since I spent a while making a new account and getting to 1400 in a day, and my main's currently hovering around no. 15 on the ladder.
Dondozo runs core enforcer to turn off poison heal to stop pheal regigas from setting up and attempting a sweep, since gigas that run wicked blow can be hard for gira to handle
Mortal Spin on Audino would also ruin the imposter matchup by poisoning the chansey and giving it the benefits of poison heal.
I've submitted the team as a sample team for the format because it's tried and true, and handles the meta fairly well.
Dozo is one of the few mons that can handle choice band tinted lens zacian right now, so I'm loathe to change it. It's still one of the most reliable walls. Ho-oh struggles with almost every Zac set, and it's the most common Mon in the tier, especially because it needs heavy duty boots to live, which means it can't deal with sunsteel strike. It also struggles against other common attackers like protean MMX and primsea palafin and Zac, as well as pheal gyara that run fishious rend
As for tried and true, I make up just under 10% of the accounts above 1400, since I spent a while making a new account and getting to 1400 in a day, and my main's currently hovering around no. 15 on the ladder.
Dondozo runs core enforcer to turn off poison heal to stop pheal regigas from setting up and attempting a sweep, since gigas that run wicked blow can be hard for gira to handle
Mortal Spin on Audino would also ruin the imposter matchup by poisoning the chansey and giving it the benefits of poison heal.
I've submitted the team as a sample team for the format because it's tried and true, and handles the meta fairly well.
Oh well. I tried to just give honest feedback after running your team, then swapping Dondozo for Ho-oh, and seeing improved results.
It went from winning 1/2 my games, to winning like 4/5 games.
The trick with Audino, is to come in when Imposter is transformed into something else, then poison it.
If they send it in later, it’s an easy free switch to your Zacian so it can continue to sweep, including blocking Mortal Spin, to keep offensive momentum. Arceus-Ground also gets a clean switch-in to trap it, and isn’t hurt by Mortal bc Covert Cloak.
Imposter being poisoned when it faces the other 5 Pokémon on your team is why Mortal Spin is helpful.
Also, Tidy Up allows Ho-Oh to run Ability Shield, I meant to mention it last post, since you have 2 Hazard clearers. If Imposter copies Giratina, it may even use Tidy Up and help your side, since it affects both sides.
It feels like you have some of the right pieces, but the wrong execution.
I just checked the ladder: #1 is basically 1700, so isn’t 1400 a bit low? Below average isn’t the brag you think it is.
Anyways, I’ll look for a different team that can stand as is, without my edits.
Oh well. I tried to just give honest feedback after running your team, then swapping Dondozo for Ho-oh, and seeing improved results.
It went from winning 1/2 my games, to winning like 4/5 games.
The trick with Audino, is to come in when Imposter is transformed into something else, then poison it.
If they send it in later, it’s an easy free switch to your Zacian so it can continue to sweep, including blocking Mortal Spin, to keep offensive momentum. Arceus-Ground also gets a clean switch-in to trap it, and isn’t hurt by Mortal bc Covert Cloak.
Imposter being poisoned when it faces the other 5 Pokémon on your team is why Mortal Spin is helpful.
Also, Tidy Up allows Ho-Oh to run Ability Shield, I meant to mention it last post, since you have 2 Hazard clearers. If Imposter copies Giratina, it may even use Tidy Up and help your side, since it affects both sides.
It feels like you have some of the right pieces, but the wrong execution.
I just checked the ladder: #1 is basically 1700, so isn’t 1400 a bit low? Below average isn’t the brag you think it is.
Anyways, I’ll look for a different team that can stand as is, without my edits.
No. 1 is 1700 yeah, but there's a pretty steep drop afterward, 10 is 1600 and 30 is roughly 1500, 1400 is still above average.
Groundceus can't trap impdino because of parting shot, and Audino excels at scouting choice sets, which Zac is, with spiky shield. If they just let their imp die to that that's one thing, but it's just bad play.
Also Ho-oh takes more than half from gigaton (54.3-68%) which just isn't tenable, and that's ignoring the crippling water weakness. After tera, primsea Zac has a chance to ohko, and poison heal mgyara has a clean 2hko and will para it.
It just loses to too many common threats and leaves your team without answers to them.
Can somebody explain why there are a lot of posts here showing banded tinted lens zacian with gigaton hammer? Choice band causees you to struggle, so wouldn't sunsteel strike be much better?
Can somebody explain why there are a lot of posts here showing banded tinted lens zacian with gigaton hammer? Choice band causees you to struggle, so wouldn't sunsteel strike be much better?
Generally, yes; Choice Band Gigaton is bad. However, notice that Choice Band Zacian-C usually uses both; Sunsteel, while great for bypassing Fur Coat, is by itself noticeably weaker than other moves like V-create. As such, Gigaton Hammer gives a nuke option that can pick something off from higher HP than Sunsteel does, provided Fur Coat is a non-factor. Sunsteel's the thing you're clicking in 90% of cases though.
Also, with Choice Band Zacian-C, there's really nothing else that you're going to be clicking other than Tinted Sunsteel or a pivot move, so having Gigaton on the set for that niche scenario doesn't do much harm.
Generally, yes; Choice Band Gigaton is bad. However, notice that Choice Band Zacian-C usually uses both; Sunsteel, while great for bypassing Fur Coat, is by itself noticeably weaker than other moves like V-create. As such, Gigaton Hammer gives a nuke option that can pick something off from higher HP than Sunsteel does, provided Fur Coat is a non-factor. Sunsteel's the thing you're clicking in 90% of cases though.
Also, with Choice Band Zacian-C, there's really nothing else that you're going to be clicking other than Tinted Sunsteel or a pivot move, so having Gigaton on the set for that niche scenario doesn't do much harm.
Gigaton ohkos most bulky mons that aren't fur coat, while sunsteel tears through fur coat. The value of removing the check to your special attacker with gigaton to let that mon go for the win can be very valuable
Oh well. I tried to just give honest feedback after running your team, then swapping Dondozo for Ho-oh, and seeing improved results.
It went from winning 1/2 my games, to winning like 4/5 games.
The trick with Audino, is to come in when Imposter is transformed into something else, then poison it.
If they send it in later, it’s an easy free switch to your Zacian so it can continue to sweep, including blocking Mortal Spin, to keep offensive momentum. Arceus-Ground also gets a clean switch-in to trap it, and isn’t hurt by Mortal bc Covert Cloak.
Imposter being poisoned when it faces the other 5 Pokémon on your team is why Mortal Spin is helpful.
Also, Tidy Up allows Ho-Oh to run Ability Shield, I meant to mention it last post, since you have 2 Hazard clearers. If Imposter copies Giratina, it may even use Tidy Up and help your side, since it affects both sides.
It feels like you have some of the right pieces, but the wrong execution.
I just checked the ladder: #1 is basically 1700, so isn’t 1400 a bit low? Below average isn’t the brag you think it is.
Anyways, I’ll look for a different team that can stand as is, without my edits.
Ok so i hit rank 1 and rank and rank 12 and 36 at the same time while playing with the team izlore made. The Team is good and i also used it a lot in my suspect test run.
After completing the suspect, here are my personal 2 cents on Tera:
Tera is more broken here than in any other metagame I've played bar current gen Pure Hackmons, because of the capacity for Pokemon to reverse a seemingly losing matchup on preview with no way for the opponent to play around Tera besides intuition. At the core the uncompetitiveness of this mechanic is shared across the tiers where it's allowed, but I found it particularly egregious here while laddering for the suspect. Pokemon here have an unparalleled number of tools that they can make use of to capitalize on the one turn gained from changing defensive Tera type, let alone the ability to 2HKO damn near everything after Tera with the right set.
From my limited perspective, I can think of a few reasons:
- Tera breakers hitting WAY too hard. Tera Steel Tinted Lens Zacian-C cleanly 2HKOes non-Dauntless Shield Primal Groudon and non-Ability Shield Dondozo with Sunsteel Strike, and Tera Electric Hadron Engine breakers and the like dealt like 40~50% to Ice Scales Arceus-Dark with Rising Voltage. Gen 7 BH, to my knowledge, was very well balanced at least in part because the best defensive Pokemon could consistently switch into a wide variety of offensive threats, and I felt pretty often during my suspect run that I had to make predicts against Pokemon that I felt the team I used didn't specifically prep for.
- Unreasonably effective facilitation of breaking. Ceaseless Edge felt a bit too spammable to me, especially since you can only run one of Heavy-Duty Boots/Ability Shield/Leftovers/Covert Cloak/Z-Crystal? on each defensive Pokemon. On Dondozo, for instance, if you opt for Boots you don't get chipped by hazards but instead get flat-out 2HKOed by Tera Steel Zacian-C; if you run Ability Shield you're prone to getting chipped, especially with multiple layers of Spikes on the field. Covert Cloak for annoying stuff that, again, facilitates breaking down the line (though some over-the-top sets can still break through you), and Leftovers/Z-Crystal for when you're trying to win fairly quickly I guess. My main gripes are probably how Ceaseless Edge is too easily slapped on defensive Pokemon, and how good some chipping tools like Salt Cure/Mortal Spin are. Which brings me to...
- Defensive Pokemon's relatively high reliance on items. Since you want one of the aforementioned items really badly (since you realistically can't deal with all of hazards/alternative chip tools/strong breakers at once), Knock Off is super powerful, and as an extraneous effect items like Shed Shell become less powerful.
- Arguably overpowered coverage moves. Fishious Rend can probably be argued to hit unreasonably hard, even in a vacuum - I tried running Tera Water Tinted Lens Zacian-C at first specifically because it hits stupid hard. In my experience, Deoxys-A in particular could threaten pretty much my entire team with Life Orb + 4 random coverage moves and I would have to play around it with few misplays to bring it down. This could be that Deoxys-A itself is problematic, but to my knowledge this is the first generation where it is truly considered over-the-top by a portion of the playerbase and I think overtuned moves is a major component of this.
- A relative lack of priority. Apologies if I'm wrong here, but if Deoxys-A is an arguably overbearing presence then priority is probably close to nonexistent. This isn't directly because of Tera I think (in my view, it's probably because of the general increase in speed tiers making Pokemon like Mega Diancie/Kyurem-B much harder to make use of), but it does contribute to select breakers being too overbearing.
- The combination of Tera + trapping. Unlike in SV BH, you have actual trapping moves in Anchor Shot and Thousand Waves, which are arguably overbearing when the trapper can change Tera type so they don't get broken through by the trapped foe. I've had a game or two where I lost my Primal Groudon because the opposing Anchor Shot + Salt Cure Zacian-C was Tera Water and I couldn't break through it. You can argue trapping is traditionally a cornerstone of BH, keeping Imposter in check, but the ability to safely and effectively remove a Pokemon that would ordinarily immediately force a trapper out, especially if not telegraphed and without a huge opportunity cost (i.e. Water isn't that much worse a defensive typing than Steel/Fairy), is too much for a metagame that strives to be truly balanced in my opinion.
- The ramifications of keeping Tera. Zygarde-C would be SO good to have in this tier right now, at least if it weren't so overbearing with Tera in the picture - a defensive Pokemon that doesn't get 2HKOed by neutral Tera-boosted attacks would be really useful, I think. Sturdy Shedinja would also be pretty cool if it weren't broken with Ability Shield/Heavy-Duty Boots, given the inherent power level in the metagame, but the aforementioned two items and Tera would realistically have to go.
That was a lot, but in short Tera is busted because it makes already strong breakers overpowered, attacking moves in general are relatively powerful, Ceaseless Edge/Salt Cure/Mortal Spin and the like too easily support breaking teammates, and the combination of trapping + Tera is uncompetitive.
not a sample sub unless tera somehow survives the suspect
had the deo set in my back pocket for a while now but never built it just cause of how silly its improofing options are. however with the tera suspect i decided to just go "fuck it" and threw something together and to my surprise it actually worked pretty well. i used it through the entirety of my suspect run and ended up going 29-1. maybe its just cause it has good anti ladder tools like imp, espeed, court change, ashields, magic guard. but it does work into competent teams too, and deo shines a lot against them.
it does numbers basically. like, a lot of numbers. and on p much the entire meta.
252 SpA Life Orb Hadron Engine Tera Electric Deoxys-Attack Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Ice Scales Arceus in Electric Terrain: 229-270 (51.5 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (so ohkoes zac, nonscales arc, xern, mewtwos etc)
252 SpA Life Orb Hadron Engine Deoxys-Attack Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Ice Scales Arceus in Electric Terrain: 153-180 (34.4 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-Attack Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus: 214-253 (48.1 - 56.9%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO (ohkoes groundceus, yep)
252 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-Attack Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Ting-Lu: 416-491 (80.9 - 95.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Hadron Engine Deoxys-Attack Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 352-417 (69.8 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Hadron Engine Deoxys-Attack Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Groudon-Primal: 429-504 (106.1 - 124.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-Attack Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Dialga-Origin: 304-359 (75.2 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Hadron Engine Deoxys-Attack Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Impostor Dondozo in Electric Terrain: 603-712 (85.6 - 101.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
this is going to be your win condition vs most semi competent teams (ie not ladder ho). the beauty of deoxys is that with life orb, even if they predict correctly they're still not safe from losing a mon. and you still pack enough power to wreck pretty much everything.
the rest of the team is pretty average. xerneas is amazing as always, even moreso on the ladder. rash pixie plate >> naive and/or boots the firepower is so good. groundceus's court change will get you instant forfeits. hooh is your fairy resist and threatens traps and fire lash kos against mons like ph xerneas. the guzzler improofs deo but can only safely do so at >70% so theres that.
alternatives:
- hooh has a toxic orb cause it was psyshift before i changed it but forgot to change the orb. you can run cloak or lefties or just run a different ability altogether.
- i forgot cedge was a move, run it over spikes on hooh.
- ive cycled through a bunch of tera types on hooh, from ground to steel to dragon to fairy. id say steel work the best to block mortal spin attempts, though feel free to experiment.
- vc > espeed on xern (tera fire too maybe). i like espeed better because ladder but hey, ladder. vc lets you wreck zac and also deal numbers dialo especially with tera.
- guzzler can be tera fairy because ladder loves dragons and also mirai is a shithead. fairy is also just a good type to tera into oftentimes. or electric, for steel resist (vs zac)/triage resist/para immunity.
- revdance on groundceus take advantage of spa boosts stolen by thief and also is immune to entrain should you lose your shield. or just not run shield in favor of lefties/cloak/hdb/earth plate judge. you can still improof with hooh. mgar/mmy becomes dicier tho.
- if you want psycho shift hooh probably make groundceus stone axe>court. i had that before and it worked pretty well. toxic orb glare also works.
- if you want to build around this deo but with like latias or smth as the improof run ccourse on deo>hlr, just because it hits dialo/darkceus etc harder.
- i am sure there is some gaping flaw on this team that i havent found yet just because nd's ladder quality is quite suspect. if you see one just yell at me.
threats:
- not a complete list, this is natdex lmao
- although offensive phs are handled alright utility ones like tapu fini and maud is much harder to punish. just do your things alongside them, hooh usually dont care about what they can do, and groundceus has court.
- kyuw rips. tera hooh (steel) or groundceus for survival if necessary. otherwise just outplay, youre never dealing with all of natdex's myriad of ludicrous attackers anyway.
- you just have to predict and play around against miraidon like so many other teams. get used to it. any kind of chip is huge, as groundceus can then take dragon energy much more easily.
- sceptile too, i guess.
- special water, everything from full rain to a random waterspout mmy are all dangerous. against rain theres not much you can do (tera dragon/grass hooh, maybe?) aside from trying to clip through their hp with xerneas to make it more manageable for terad groundceus. and kill things with deo, as usual.
- norm+knock spam gets annoying. if you find yourself without ability shields hard deo on the entrain, it cant remove hadron.
- deo. what did you expect, the mon is pretty much unwallable no matter what it runs. you have espeed to slow it down tho if it comes down to it. use tera smartly, its usually worth it to burn tera to remove deo.
- opposing tera. you have to be safe with your deo if you suspect it since its usually how you win games. clicking say rend on a tera poison ting is disastrous. when in doubt just switch, there will always be targets that die no matter what.
quick thoughts:
- tera deo was fun while it lasted. what a hell of a mon. its probably for the better that itll be gone for good, tho.
- darm zen is still the goat.
- i feel that people discount regigigas way too much. against many teams it can just win if it has the right tera. still a tera problem, though.
- dialo is eh imo, so so many things are accounting for it, dedicating a moveslot just for it. ting is similar but you blank mgar and dark/ground are full of good moves to brainlessly click. scales fairyceus is of course still goated since no one runs coverage for it unless your name is gengar.
- hooh is cool, sturdy fairy resist that's immune to ground and resist fire, by far the most popular coverage for fairies. not half bad against rising mg chloroblast mmys either.
Hi- I only ever played during gen 8 bh/ndbh and gen 9 post zygarde ban. what is the reason zygarde was so overbearing? presumably tera, but maybe there was something else?
Hi- I only ever played during gen 8 bh/ndbh and gen 9 post zygarde ban. what is the reason zygarde was so overbearing? presumably tera, but maybe there was something else?
Nah, just tera really. Let it tera out of a weakness, then trap and remove offensive mons which forced a really passive style of play as you'd pivot around trying to bait tera.
Hi, I'll make this brief. NatDex BH was not supposed to have a permeant ladder, but there was a miscommunication when it transitioned from Pet Mods to NatDex. To that end, the ladder will be removed with the monthly ladder changes on August 1st. It will remain on Main as a challengeable format.
Generally, we try to make sure that ladders are very distinct from each other and avoid splitting smaller communities. While there is no doubt that BH and NatDex BH are different metagames, they are far more similar both in scope and playerbase than we would allow for both have permaladders. I want to emphasise this was not solely related to the recent dex changes to BH, this decision was coming regardless.
We are re-vamping our ladder approval process to make sure similar instances do not happen again.
Yes this sucks, and we are sorry for it happening this way. If you have any frustrations, please do not direct them towards NatDex or OM staff; this was an Upper Staff decision.
Hi, I'll make this brief. NatDex BH was not supposed to have a permeant ladder, but there was a miscommunication when it transitioned from Pet Mods to NatDex. To that end, the ladder will be removed with the monthly ladder changes on August 1st. It will remain on Main as a challengeable format.
Generally, we try to make sure that ladders are very distinct from each other and avoid splitting smaller communities. While there is no doubt that BH and NatDex BH are different metagames, they are far more similar both in scope and playerbase than we would allow for both have permaladders. I want to emphasise this was not solely related to the recent dex changes to BH, this decision was coming regardless.
We are re-vamping our ladder approval process to make sure similar instances do not happen again.
Yes this sucks, and we are sorry for it happening this way. If you have any frustrations, please do not direct them towards NatDex or OM staff; this was an Upper Staff decision.
I understand the miscommunication point and I'm aware that this was inevitably coming, but I'm not liking how we are bringing up metagame relation and activity when NDBH has had significantly more activity than regular BH and NDBH having (and will still have) a completely different metagame than SVBH, as in current gen BH missing past staples such as Zamazenta-C, Zygarde-C, Xerneas, Anchor Shot, Core Enforcer, and more are unusable or unfunctional. If anything, people would most likely migrate the NDBH due to it being the better metagame! But it's good though, there was miscommunication that needed to be solved and y'all acted on it. Don't bring up NDBH as it being inferior or similar to SVBH though because that's just objectively untrue
e: small nitpick but it would also be nice for ndom staff to know about this before you dropped the oppenheimer here
I understand the miscommunication point and I'm aware that this was inevitably coming, but I'm not liking how we are bringing up metagame relation and activity when NDBH has had significantly more activity than regular BH and NDBH having (and will still have) a completely different metagame than SVBH, as in current gen BH missing past staples such as Zamazenta-C, Zygarde-C, Xerneas, Anchor Shot, Core Enforcer, and more are unusable or unfunctional. If anything, people would most likely migrate the NDBH due to it being the better metagame! But it's good though, there was miscommunication that needed to be solved and y'all acted on it. Don't bring up NDBH as it being inferior or similar to SVBH though because that's just objectively untrue
e: small nitpick but it would also be nice for ndom staff to know about this before you dropped the oppenheimer here
Comparing deleting a format to creating a nuclear bomb is weird
Those numbers you provided show nothing more than file size. Obviously the NDBH number will be larger since they’ve had double the Pokémon to get stats for up until recently. It is true that NDBH got more plays than SVBH this past month and the month before, but that was not the case up until then, and the popularity difference is negligible, so claiming NDBH is the significantly more popular hackmons ladder is untrue.
Comparing deleting a format to creating a nuclear bomb is weird
Those numbers you provided show nothing more than file size. Obviously the NDBH number will be larger since they’ve had double the Pokémon to get stats for up until recently. It is true that NDBH got more plays than SVBH this past month and the month before, but that was not the case up until then, and the popularity difference is negligible, so claiming NDBH is the significantly more popular hackmons ladder is untrue.
NDBH has consecutively had more plays than SVBH ever since January; you have a fair point with the popularity argument but it does lean in NDBHs favor, and while not being as significant as I said still does show what the more popular format is and why it shouldn't be treated as an inferior to SV.
lets pick up a book next time and read a metaphor too by the way :P
