OM National Dex Balanced Hackmons

[Cta]

Okay, yeah, Im not married to the concept, it was just an idea I was peddling around in my head that I wanted to know if it was viable or not. Also I get that there are differences between VGC and Singles, I also get that shadow tag is banned. Thanks for the input.

Perish trap is very mehh tbh, it isn't that threatening as it's literally toxic stall but the clock ticks faster. Honestly i don't see any benefits to exploit with perish trapping because pivoting moves are the core of most ndbh teams and are pretty busted in the current meta. If you wanna kill that momentum then here is something I would suggest. Now before you say that this is awfully goofy and hella weird to run I was thinking imprison + u-turn. Or maybe protect + disable? prot + disable fit right onto a phealer and imprison + u-turn is an awfully out of place set. Tbh you should try toxic stall with some semi-offensive sets over perish trap as it's pretty easy to counter. As for prot + disable it just seems awful because the opponent isn't forced to do stuff or might even have teleport for slow pivoting. As for DoT trap sets it's a whole other story. Stuff like toxic and trapping can cripple walls horribly. But well that should be tested before discussed.

What i wanted to discuss is hazard stacking; Pretty busted with stuff like GaG. Now i'm imagining a GaG aegislash (spinblocker) to deal with hazard removal. Sadly it doesn't feel too broken due to the existence of pixie-spin or tidy up that just laugh at those sets. So when it comes to blocking how about this?



Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Worry Seed
- Heal Order
- Teleport

Pretty goofy looking but with a solid pivoting core this thing can come in just in time to block all methods of hazard removal, not the a-shield ate-spin but who runs that anyways? This thing is pretty neat because it deals with hazard removers by taunting or worry seeding them and then teleports out, forcing continous switches against most teams which leads to a lot of chip. If you don't need to pivot out you can run haze and make this double as your prank haze too. immunity to mortal spin, rapid spin; taunting defog, tidy up, and worry seeding ate-spinners. Could help out a lot as aegislash has some pretty good bulk. But imo it's a little too passive. Then again this is prolly the best way to maintain hazard stacks.

Another thing i wanted to talk about is magic bounce, kinda non-existent now but it could work right? it's not a bad ability but not too great. I'll try fitting it in somewhere later.

 

[dtc09]

Perish trap is very mehh tbh, it isn't that threatening as it's literally toxic stall but the clock ticks faster. Honestly i don't see any benefits to exploit with perish trapping because pivoting moves are the core of most ndbh teams and are pretty busted in the current meta. If you wanna kill that momentum then here is something I would suggest. Now before you say that this is awfully goofy and hella weird to run I was thinking imprison + u-turn. Or maybe protect + disable? prot + disable fit right onto a phealer and imprison + u-turn is an awfully out of place set. Tbh you should try toxic stall with some semi-offensive sets over perish trap as it's pretty easy to counter. As for prot + disable it just seems awful because the opponent isn't forced to do stuff or might even have teleport for slow pivoting. As for DoT trap sets it's a whole other story. Stuff like toxic and trapping can cripple walls horribly. But well that should be tested before discussed.

What i wanted to discuss is hazard stacking; Pretty busted with stuff like GaG. Now i'm imagining a GaG aegislash (spinblocker) to deal with hazard removal. Sadly it doesn't feel too broken due to the existence of pixie-spin or tidy up that just laugh at those sets. So when it comes to blocking how about this?



Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Worry Seed
- Heal Order
- Teleport

Pretty goofy looking but with a solid pivoting core this thing can come in just in time to block all methods of hazard removal, not the a-shield ate-spin but who runs that anyways? This thing is pretty neat because it deals with hazard removers by taunting or worry seeding them and then teleports out, forcing continous switches against most teams which leads to a lot of chip. If you don't need to pivot out you can run haze and make this double as your prank haze too. immunity to mortal spin, rapid spin; taunting defog, tidy up, and worry seeding ate-spinners. Could help out a lot as aegislash has some pretty good bulk. But imo it's a little too passive. Then again this is prolly the best way to maintain hazard stacks.

Another thing i wanted to talk about is magic bounce, kinda non-existent now but it could work right? it's not a bad ability but not too great. I'll try fitting it in somewhere later.

i honestly doubt the viability of that set, you're investing too much on a mon that while being able to block any hazard removal while on the field it also fails to do absolutely anything else to the opposing team, being a prank without haze and bait for many attackers. also, you can't even prevent tidy up or -atespin if you aren't already on the field, which sucks. not to mention how good hazard removers can generaly threaten blockers correctly: mortal spin pdon can v-create you to oblivion, rapid spin ph mgyara spikes you while damaging you, plus you can't touch it at all cuz it's a dark, ph xern mstorms you and you take quite some damage and you basically can't guess zacc's set properly until it spins, meaning you can't just taunt and recieve a tinted gigaton hammer to the face. overall completely blocking any hazard removal is quite a bit too much and can't be don reliably, so you try to do too much and end up being kinda mediocre. really best thing you could do is just run ghosts/steels that fare well against spinners, such as fc ghostceus (takes nothing from phys attacks and has good offensive presence with tail glow/qd and plate judge) and psea zac (walls mortal spin pdon if not ground move, though it's still a problem if it gets its weather up). as for bounce uh it does nothing tbh, it used to be neat as hazard control but everyone runs edge/saxe now so what's the point

 

[Smurfing Surfer]

cum pulse

idk if thats the best abbreviation man

 

[Smurfing Surfer]

greninja-ash isn't allowed in ndbh or national dex because battle bond was reworked in gen 9 not to change form, effectively making the form nonexistent. next best thing is palafin-hero but the speed and lack of second stab makes it pretty mediocre

literally neither is berserk gene or gems. I dont see the issue with ash gren and before you say that "AsH GrEN iSn'T in NDOU" literally neither are gems, i dont see the issue.

 

[Pokemonhacker1]

literally neither is berserk gene or gems. I dont see the issue with ash gren. I know I should merge posts but it wont ping you if I dont

Yeah, I don’t get that either, or why the lets go signature moves are not allowed, even though the majority of them were edited in the games following LGPE.

the let's go moves aren't there

It makes no sense that these things dont exist, when it is NDBH, where you should be able to use any pokemon, and any move, yet some dont exist

greninja-ash isn't allowed in ndbh or national dex

I would love more clarification on this, as to why these moves and ash-gren dont exist in the national dex. Thanks in advance

 

[anaconja]

literally neither is berserk gene or gems. I dont see the issue with ash gren and before you say that "AsH GrEN iSn'T in NDOU" literally neither are gems, i dont see the issue.

these are also supposed to be banned, it was announced here but theres a strange disconnect between github and the actual ruleset

Hide

Yeah, I don’t get that either, or why the lets go signature moves are not allowed, even though the majority of them were edited in the games following LGPE.

this is more a question for national dex but since the starters from lgpe are unable to be transferred to pokemon home i assume thats why they dont exist. ndbh allows you to use any pokemon as long as they exist in nd. this is the same reason why ashgren doesnt exist, as dtc basically already answered: battle bond no longer form changes so the form no longer exists.

 

[MeevinMelvin]

Lugia @ Clear Amulet / Covert Cloak
Ability: Triage
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Lumina Crash
- Oblivion Wing
- Substitute
- Tail Glow
lil set i cooked with some discord guys
it prob isnt good at all but idk, wanted to try smth

 

[Pokemonhacker1]

Lugia @ Clear Amulet / Covert Cloak
Ability: Triage
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Lumina Crash
- Oblivion Wing
- Substitute
- Tail Glow

Actually, I faced off against something like this, but it was with yveltal, and it was pretty hard to get rid of, because of the +3 priority healing oblivion wing, the only way to deal with it is to find something that can OhKo it, so it cannot heal back its HP. In terms of using Lugia, you should consider using Yveltal, because of Lugia having only 90 base SpAtk, wheras Yveltal has 131 base SpAtk. I am wondering, however, about why you have lumina crash in its moveset, but, overall, a pretty good set

this is more a question for national dex but since the starters from lgpe are unable to be transferred to pokemon home i assume thats why they dont exist.

What did you mean when you said that that this is more a question for national dex? Just wondering

 

[MeevinMelvin]

is palafin-h any good?

 

[shadowpea]

is palafin-h any good?

not really. pdon and bulky waters being all over the place make life extremely difficult for it. giratina being common on the ladder doesnt help

i also think vdance pogres superior but thats just me

 

[Shay's Fate]

When are we getting samples that aren't outdated?

 

[Pokemonhacker1]

When are we getting samples that aren't outdated?

I don’t think that is ever happening, which kinda sucks
Edit: Never Mind, see below.

 

[anaconja]

ok sample subs open




double ph bulky balance
this used to be a team built around mg but then i realized in my games that it wasnt doing a whole lot and that i was using ph as the wincon (also the no retreat spam was annoying to deal with). basically you have 3 fat walls + chansey to cover most offensive mons, with two of them having koff for useful items like cloak, vest, and hdb. sets and removes hazards while spreading paralysis (it notably lives a unboosted magical torque if you want it crippled). patches the and protean/tc matchup because they have se coverage for basically everything except fairy. it usually teras fire so you can lure and ko it with magma storm, and also vastly improve the imposter matchup (though barring crits or being very damaged, you usually win 1v1 anyway).

(its the same team as before but instead of )

weaknesses:
tera steel guys are insane and basically require you to tera water on either tinglu or lunala. if it goes against arcfairy and you know its not tinted band then you can tera fire and trap it
even with all precautions taken mg can still be a problem if your opponent runs some silly set like steel-ground coverage. of course it only has 4 moveslots so you can scout with and act accordingly


kangaskhan "paraspam" bulky balance
has like 3.5 weirdmons but surprisingly consistent. built around who can be insanely threatening when opposing fastmons are cut down to size with para. this is done by tg who can force defensive mons insane to paralyze them. conversely, hands out fast glares to attackers. improofs and also checks . controls hazards and surprises some hazard setters with a pretty hard-hitting boomburst. imposter rounds the team out by scouting mons like mmy and checking triage/special setup with lucky punch.

weaknesses:
normal ph is scary if you dont have toxic orb imposter. theres core steelix for it but it can tech pblades for it or turn fairy.
you need to tera fairyceus to water to handle this most effectively but sometimes trading ogre for para on zacian does well enough.


mg gardevoir + sf mmy balance
the idea behind mg is that you beat passive mons that spam salt cure and thousand waves (this was during era). can bring in special walls like and and eliminate them with axe kick. after that you have the classic defensive core with , , and along with to absorb status/koff, spread status, and remove hazards.

weaknesses:
i think despite having mg + spin its pretty weak to getting worn down by hazards. that tends to happen with sf mmy and while monospin on ph is not terrible its not ironclad removal either so you can get in spots where you want switch on stuff but dont want to get chipped. could go court change on for extra insurance

also resubbing this

toxic spike + ghostceus balance
yea hes back. toxic debris makes it so much easier to set up tspikes and phaze, and you can do it in one turn. is a strange choice but its chosen to remove tspikes imposter sets, plus it blocks most lacking fire coverage and threatens to spread even more status through wisp and mortal spin. blocks spin and takes advantage of special walls being poisoned like spd or prankster mons, while purifying salt improofs and cripples annoyances to the team like normalize users or prankster mons. checks most running fire coverage and generally blankets physical attackers while blankets most special attackers (its electric to beat triage lol).

weaknesses:
this team lacks a consistent special wall so something like specs can bust through if and are weakened enough. also since this team benefits a lot from tspike poison types obviously become annoying especially because no mon very clearly threatens it.
also is horribly passive and doesnt threaten at all which gets depressing sometimes, though if you remove core you get a much worse ph normal matchup. you can replace rapid spin with spectral and risk getting spinblocked by steels forever maybe.

 

[Pokemonhacker1]

ok sample subs open



double ph bulky balance
this used to be a team built around mg but then i realized in my games that it wasnt doing a whole lot and that i was using ph as the wincon (also the no retreat spam was annoying to deal with). basically you have 3 fat walls + chansey to cover most offensive mons, with two of them having koff for useful items like cloak, vest, and hdb. sets and removes hazards while spreading paralysis (it notably lives a unboosted magical torque if you want it crippled). patches the and protean/tc matchup because they have se coverage for basically everything except fairy. it usually teras fire so you can lure and ko it with magma storm, and also vastly improve the imposter matchup (though barring crits or being very damaged, you usually win 1v1 anyway).

(its the same team as before but instead of )

weaknesses:
tera steel guys are insane and basically require you to tera water on either tinglu or lunala. if it goes against arcfairy and you know its not tinted band then you can tera fire and trap it
even with all precautions taken mg can still be a problem if your opponent runs some silly set like steel-ground coverage. of course it only has 4 moveslots so you can scout with and act accordingly


kangaskhan "paraspam" bulky balance
has like 3.5 weirdmons but surprisingly consistent. built around who can be insanely threatening when opposing fastmons are cut down to size with para. this is done by tg who can force defensive mons insane to paralyze them. conversely, hands out fast glares to attackers. improofs and also checks . controls hazards and surprises some hazard setters with a pretty hard-hitting boomburst. imposter rounds the team out by scouting mons like mmy and checking triage/special setup with lucky punch.

weaknesses:
normal ph is scary if you dont have toxic orb imposter. theres core steelix for it but it can tech pblades for it or turn fairy.
you need to tera fairyceus to water to handle this most effectively but sometimes trading ogre for para on zacian does well enough.


mg gardevoir + sf mmy balance
the idea behind mg is that you beat passive mons that spam salt cure and thousand waves (this was during era). can bring in special walls like and and eliminate them with axe kick. after that you have the classic defensive core with , , and along with to absorb status/koff, spread status, and remove hazards.

weaknesses:
i think despite having mg + spin its pretty weak to getting worn down by hazards. that tends to happen with sf mmy and while monospin on ph is not terrible its not ironclad removal either so you can get in spots where you want switch on stuff but dont want to get chipped. could go court change on for extra insurance

also resubbing this

toxic spike + ghostceus balance
yea hes back. toxic debris makes it so much easier to set up tspikes and phaze, and you can do it in one turn. is a strange choice but its chosen to remove tspikes imposter sets, plus it blocks most lacking fire coverage and threatens to spread even more status through wisp and mortal spin. blocks spin and takes advantage of special walls being poisoned like spd or prankster mons, while purifying salt improofs and cripples annoyances to the team like normalize users or prankster mons. checks most running fire coverage and generally blankets physical attackers while blankets most special attackers (its electric to beat triage lol).

weaknesses:
this team lacks a consistent special wall so something like specs can bust through if and are weakened enough. also since this team benefits a lot from tspike poison types obviously become annoying especially because no mon very clearly threatens it.
also is horribly passive and doesnt threaten at all which gets depressing sometimes, though if you remove core you get a much worse ph normal matchup. you can replace rapid spin with spectral and risk getting spinblocked by steels forever maybe.

Thanks for these, but I was wondering what the actual move sets were for the mons were? I particularly liked the mega-kangashkhan set, it looks cool

 

[LOrd Fernado]

Thanks for these, but I was wondering what the actual move sets were for the mons were? I particularly liked the mega-kangashkhan set, it looks cool

click the sprites

 

[dtc09]

time for some sample submissions:



Orichalcum Pulse Deoxys-A + Primal Groudon Firespam

This team tried to overwhelm fc waters with deoa/pdon and then clean up with either deoxys itself or zacc. zacian itself improofs the fire duo while lucky punch imp is good for setup counterplay against stuff like pheal fairy. Double hazard control in tidy up zac+mortal spin don helps ensure deoa doesn't get its eruption weakened to punch through waters much more easily, while tidy up helps for a zacian sweep lategame when the fc water is gone.

Weaknesses:

opposing primsea can be annoying as they switch into the vc abusers easily, though pdon switches into it as easily to begin blasting. some sets also are unwallable for this team, but that happens always with deoa tbh




Palkia-O Balance

An older team of mine adapted for post-zygarde meta with a couple tweaks that i felt were necessary. Palkia-O is a scary breaker with a nigh-unresisted STAB combo and an interesting niche of being the best pdon check ever, pushing every scales user to a 3HKO and forcing them to always recover. This forced passivity is abused by the two physical attackers of the team: zacc also pushes walls to a 3HKO while knocking off ability shields off of fur coat walls to MMX can photon them to death. astral meanwhile takes care of lunala/mslowbro, so you have close to no switchins and can abuse special walls taking a turn to recover to come in.

Weaknesses:

can be a huge problem with wrong prediction, as my only mon that takes rising voltage comfortably is chansey, and it doesn't like dragon energy. random mons like are also annoying as they resist palkia's STABs but they aren't common.

 

[LOrd Fernado]

my sample

Pheal MMX + Mirai Pdon:
this team was based off of the classic , who hits really hard, but is improofed by . then there's who has lumina for physical walls that would originally wall it. does what it does, and is the hazard clearer of the and also v-create + intrepid to do serious damage. and are the walls of the squad. has teleport and wseed to erase abilities and pivot from phealer such as your own while has spec thief and core enforcer for sort of a more offensive wall with trapping such as anchor shot.

Weaknesses:
if gets hold of the via imposter then mmx threatens most of your team if cannot pivot into
and is a massive threat to the team if is dead.

 

[UngaTheDunga]

Sorry if is out of topic, but how do i used these pokemons emotes?

 

[LOrd Fernado]

type the name of the Pokémon and surround the name with colons like this :pokemon:

 

[dtc09]

my sample

Pheal MMX + Mirai Pdon:
this team was based off of the classic , who hits really hard, but is improofed by . then there's who has lumina for physical walls that would originally wall it. does what it does, and is the hazard clearer of the and also v-create + intrepid to do serious damage. and are the walls of the squad. has teleport and wseed to erase abilities and pivot from phealer such as your own while has spec thief and core enforcer for sort of a more offensive wall with trapping such as anchor shot.

Weaknesses:
if gets hold of the via imposter then mmx threatens most of your team if cannot pivot into
and is a massive threat to the team if is dead.

you might want to give mmx glare/nuzzle instead of sshield to improof better, this way they're scared of doing anything lest they get para'd. also solar beam > solar blade, solar blade is physical and can't threaten fc walls as well:

+1 252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Solar Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Dondozo: 188-222 (37.3 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

alternatively you can run electro drift and improof with fur coat mswampert

 

[UngaTheDunga]

type the name of the Pokémon and surround the name with colons like this :pokemon:

Oh thanks for the help!

 

[LOrd Fernado]

you might want to give mmx glare/nuzzle instead of sshield to improof better, this way they're scared of doing anything lest they get para'd. also solar beam > solar blade, solar blade is physical and can't threaten fc walls as well:

+1 252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Solar Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Dondozo: 188-222 (37.3 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

alternatively you can run electro drift and improof with fur coat mswampert

i sorta reversed the improof on the pokemon making pdon easier to improof rather than than the mmx. not sure if it works but i think it would be fine. ty for the advice tho

 

[anaconja]

ndou is retesting tera, which gives us a good reason to revisit tera as well. copying what jho asked so we can generate some discussion and gauge how much support we have to do a retest ourselves:

What is your stance on Tera in the metagame?

Do you think Tera should be retested? Why?

What do you think has changed since the original suspect test, which ended in a no ban vote, that would justify retesting Tera?

my personal opinion

What is your stance on Tera in the metagame?
it's pretty dumb. our quickban of one of the metagame staples (zygc) shows how much it alters mons to be overcentralizing, and because of that, tera steel zacc has become a massive threat only walled by ability shield fc waters.

Do you think Tera should be retested? Why?
absolutely - if not, zacc could be next on the chopping block and that has its own problems down the line because utility zacc is also a great check to things like mmy, flutter mane, gengar, etc. and those could just lead to a series of bans that leaves the metagame very unpleasant to play.

What do you think has changed since the original suspect test, which ended in a no ban vote, that would justify retesting Tera?
basically the zygc quickban. it was justified because fc/scales tera water/fairy was ridiculous to break through physically or specially, but as ive mentioned it has led to the rise of zacc to a level of great centralization (even overcentralization). tera eliminates problems from miraidon being able to 2hko dia-o to zygc being impossible to 2hko on one side to zacc requring one specific set being almost required on any defensive core.

gonna let this go for a week or two, will decide on samples in the meantime

 

[izlore]

View attachment 530519
ndou is retesting tera, which gives us a good reason to revisit tera as well. copying what jho asked so we can generate some discussion and gauge how much support we have to do a retest ourselves:

What is your stance on Tera in the metagame?

Do you think Tera should be retested? Why?

What do you think has changed since the original suspect test, which ended in a no ban vote, that would justify retesting Tera?

my personal opinion

What is your stance on Tera in the metagame?
it's pretty dumb. our quickban of one of the metagame staples (zygc) shows how much it alters mons to be overcentralizing, and because of that, tera steel zacc has become a massive threat only walled by ability shield fc waters.

Do you think Tera should be retested? Why?
absolutely - if not, zacc could be next on the chopping block and that has its own problems down the line because utility zacc is also a great check to things like mmy, flutter mane, gengar, etc. and those could just lead to a series of bans that leaves the metagame very unpleasant to play.

What do you think has changed since the original suspect test, which ended in a no ban vote, that would justify retesting Tera?
basically the zygc quickban. it was justified because fc/scales tera water/fairy was ridiculous to break through physically or specially, but as ive mentioned it has led to the rise of zacc to a level of great centralization (even overcentralization). tera eliminates problems from miraidon being able to 2hko dia-o to zygc being impossible to 2hko on one side to zacc requring one specific set being almost required on any defensive core.

gonna let this go for a week or two, will decide on samples in the meantime

My opinion's pretty similar to yours, tbh. We've been finding over and over that that best abusers of tera are just the best pokemon, as tera's main use is check removal, which allows them to go from strong to overcentralizing/unbeatable.

 

[dtc09]

i think people need to look at the consequences of not banning tera and instead banning the abusers. it already too zygarde, and with it zacian is now banworthy. if we ban it, mmy loses its best offensive check, and as a mon that can potentially kill every single one of its checks, it can be pushed over the edge. so can miraidon and deoxys-a, and with them mega gengar and mmx, two nigh-unwallable mons held back by meh speed, now can murder stuff without most of their revenge killers. yeah, it's clear that not banning tera will make the meta spiral down into a chain of bans that will last god knows who.


and that's not all, as while its biggest offender was banned tera + trapping is still a deadly combination with stuff like tera fire mstorm fairy that force passive play. and tera ghost imposter memes on a common improofing method, while overall tera chansey can mess up many improofs.


really the list of egregious tera abusers is too big to list, and can only keep growing as stuff get banned: tera dragon specsmaw etern might kill everything after mmy/zacc/deoa/mirai go, pixilate flutter mane is another great abuser held back by zacian and even more problematic stuff can be cooked on the future, as on such a sandbox-like meta you never know when the next groundbreaking discovery might be made.


basically, no, banning tera abusers isn't an option, and no, the meta can't handle tera as it is right now. to all of you who voted DNB on the tera suspect, please reconsider it and don't look at the ladder that thinks fakespeed kyurem-black is the second coming of jesus christ as an example of how tera is actually used competitively.