Moltres - Burn Baby Burn

[jamashawalker]

First off i would like to apologize for lack of damage calcs and poor grammar and structure if it shows in the topic...

This topic i am posting is to ask other's opinions on moltres and if it is too broken for UU. The reason moltres came to my attention is because i found out that most teams if not all teams need a bulky water or chansey specifically for moltres...This idea also came from the fact that it plays alot like specs yanmega, meaning you have to sacrifice something to revenge kill it. From this point on I am going to go on a comparison between yanmega and moltres to show moltres' true devastating power...

Moltres's Stats
90/100/90/125/85/90

Yanmega's Stats
86/76/86/116/56/95

As we can see moltres has a higher 65 base stats overall. To focus on the important stats, moltres has a higher special attack, a little bit higher defenses, and a little bit slower, but in UU 90-95 base speed is not that big of a difference...The only pokemon he doesnt outspeed that is over 90 is(and i'll add if they are a threat or not):

Rotom: Yes a threat with STAB thunderbolt, but can only switch into a move that isnt a fire attack

Drapion: not too much of a threat unless it is revenge killing a weakened moltres. Otherwise, depending on the set, it is either OHKOed or 2HKOed by fire blast.

Houndom: Depends if Houndoom has HP rock, if not then it is not a threat as it is 2HKOed by airslash.

Arcanine: Not a threat. Arcanine may be able to take a boosted airslash and heal it off, but it cannot take them repeatedly and also threaten moltres. Most moltres switch into arcanine(If SR is not on the field)

Uxie:Defensively it can cripple with status, but it is not faster so moltres doesnt need to worry about that.

The other NU 90-95 base speeds(and are really used) are jynx, leafeon, sharpedo, primeape. The overall point of to show these speeds is to show who yanmega had to speed tie with while comparing it to moltres. so we get the idea that speed doesnt matter when comparing the two of them.

Now to the special attack and movepool.
Moltres boasts a 125 special attack one of these highest in UU/NU and with one of the best offensive typing, fire. STAB fire blast/flamethrower can OHKO/2HKO anything that doesnt resist or doesnt have a high special defense. To those that resist fireblast, Bulky Waters, Have to deal with air slash and a hidden power grass.

Yanmega runs off a 116 special attack. Very high when battling with great STAB special attacks. Bug Buzz will hurt anything that doesnt resist it unless it runs choice specs tinted lens then it becomes unstoppable. Air slash only makes yanmega more annoying. And for those hyper offense teams can run speed boost to further cause you agony as you have nothing to outspeed it nor revenge kill it.


Typical Sets:

LO Sweeper
Moltres @ Life Orb
Timid/Modest
4 HP/ 252 SpAtk/252 Spd
Fire Blast
Air Slash
HP Grass
Roost

Choice Scarf
Moltres @ Choice Scarf
Modest
40 Def/ 252 SpAtk/216 Spd
OverHeat
Fireblast/Will-O-Wisp
Air Slash
U-Turn


Stalling
Moltres @ Leftovers
Bold
248 HP, 148 Def, 112 Spd
Flamethrower/Air Slash
Roost
Sub
Toxic/Will-O-Wisp


Counters for the Fliers.
SR is of course their worse nemisis. With SR on the field it severely limits their effectiveness in terms of sweeping and being overall productive.
When we think of moltres counters in UU the first thing that comes to mind is Milotic or Chansey. As we all know milotic is the definition of bulky water, has loads of special defense, and high HP to take moltres's assault decently. Yes decently, because unfortunately milotic will have to be at full health to be able to wall moltres. And a flinch from one air slash will be milotic's doom with the next attack. Chansey is an absolute counter, unless moltres runs a stall set or a sunny day set which can 2HKO chansey. Chansey doesnt fear of not being at full health and still walling. With prediction certain pokemon can switch in and counter. Altaria for example: It cannot switch into air slash without being 2HKO but it can switch into Fire Blast/hidden power grass. This means you have very few counters to moltres.

Moltres Countering pokemon:
Moltres can counter a large portion of the UU metagame. Mostly physical attackers (Without SR). I will say it is the #2 counter to venasaur(The first being Honchkrow, thanks to insomia) sporting fire/flying combo and great defenses on both sides threatening venasaur out no matter what, Unless it switches into sleep powder. It threatens gallade, unless gallade carries stone edge. Being able to switch into all the UU fighting types STAB attacks, beign faster than them and threatening with airslash means it gets an easy switch in majority of the time. To quote onto something i just read, heysup talked about "antispinning" Moltres is a perfect antispinner. As stated in the beginning, moltres is so threatening that if your counter is down you will have to sacrifcice to take it out. Hence one reason why i state moltres is broken.

Overall:
Moltres is a strong firetype with very few counters and numerous ways to switch into many pokemon and threaten the pokemon and the next. The damage potential done from yanmega should be done more from moltres. SR mentioned constantly will hurt moltres so a good team will prepare for that. Also especially being faster than the magic 80 speed base pokemon in UU making it especially dominating in UU...

What are your opinions about moltres and its role in UU? Do you believe that its broken for UU?

 

[Random Pizzaman]

I think Moltres' obvious Stealth Rock weakness and inability to get past bulky waters is what is keeping Moltres from being BL, because otherwise, its a fantastic sweeper that plows through everything or can be a rock- steady tank/ staller. One of the best in UU.

 

[locoghoul]

^still moltres gets some free switch ins where he can roost off damage. Stall is the way to go in uu as there is no heatran to wall you

 

[jamashawalker]

I think Moltres' obvious Stealth Rock weakness and inability to get past bulky waters is what is keeping Moltres from being BL, because otherwise, its a fantastic sweeper that plows through everything or can be a rock- steady tank/ staller. One of the best in UU.

The only really bulky water in UU Moltres cant 2HKO with HP grass or follow up with a KO is milotic. SR is definitely keeping it at bay but when played well moltres will hurt those trying to set up SR again..OO and lanturn is a good counter too...unfortunately it doesnt have recover like milotic though...

EDIT: O and all bulky waters except for lanturn get beat by sunnybeamer

 

[TEA_DEMON]

SubRoost Moltres is pure evil. In a good player's hands it's almost impossible to revenge kill, since even priority doesn't cut it. It resists Vacuum Wave/Mach Punch, and resists Ice Shard whilst Roosting. The only things that can deal with it are ExtremeSpeed (Arcanine only in UU) and Fake Out (which can only be done once). Moltres beats Arcanine most of the time, and Fake Out only working once just means a free Sub or Roost when you attack with something not named Fake Out. And, if you bring out a Scarfer, it's free to switch out and then come in when the threat is dealt with. It's too hard to play around methinks.

 

[Smurf.]

specs moltres can 2hko milotic with a flinch on the first air slash

 

[Heysup]

I think Moltres is one of the most effective sweepers in the metagame, but I don't think this thread does its negative attributes justice.

Firstly, the Yanmega comparison is a valid one, but in my opinion it shows the difference between broke and not broken. The main difference between the two Pokemon is their abilities. Yanmega has two of the absolute best abilities in the game while Moltres has a Subpar one. This is why Stealth Rock affected Yanmega so much less, it was able to come in once or twice and absolutely fuck up the opponent's team.

Second, priority weakness. Weakness to Aqua Jet is pretty brutal, since Kabutops and Azumarill are pretty popular.

Third, it is just quite not fast enough. For example, Yanmega was fast enough to outpace one of its main switch-ins (Rotom) even with just 5 more base Speed.

Overall, the reasons Moltres is not broken are because:

a) It has a Stealth Rock weakness.
b) It is easily revenge killable.
c) Its Fire-type STAB has an immunity.
d) It is weak to priority.
e) It is just slightly too slow.

(also f) Raikou exists)

 

[Flamewheeler]

Moltres IS powerful, there is no doubt about that, and I agree with Heysup's reasons, especially the speed one, but she is not broken. The only way moltres really plows through teams is with a Modest nature, and things like venusaur (what it's supposed to counter) are now faster because most run a +spd nature these days. Venusaur can just sleep powder, and things like arcanine can toxic or whatever. Imo, the main two things keeping it from BL are its 4x weakness to SR and its susceptibility to priority. Spinning is even harder these days and CB azumarill or even subpunch variants are everywhere!! I may add more when I think of something...

 

[MagicMaster87]

Regirock does a pretty good job of countering Moltres as well due to the fact that it resists both Fire and Flying, and is usually run extremely specially-bulky, so even HP Grass won't be able to kill it before it dies from Stone Edge/Rock Slide. Rhyperior can take on versions without HP Grass/Solarbeam too, and has access to Rock Blast to beat SubRoost versions.

 

[FlareBlitz]

Moltres isn't broken. But if we're talking about viable sets for it, I remember being swept by a SubPetaya Moltres once. It switches in something that doesn't like it at all (not hard in this venusaur infested metagame), subs to activate Petaya, and then proceeds to completely wreck your opponent's shit. Nothing slower than Moltres besides Chansey can live through two +1 Fire Blast/Air Slash/SE Hidden Power (that I can think of at the moment, anyway) and your sub guarantees that you get at least one shot off, and protects you from random priority. And of course, you could also run Roost instead of a Hidden Power in the last slot to heal up after you nuke something.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

I've not had a problem with Moltres really (but I think that might be because I use a Chansey, who I can switch into Moltres without even having to think about it).

The Yanmega comparison was interesting, but Moltres doesn't have Speed Boost, which is an amazing ability, far better than Pressure.

 

[Delko]

It's weakness to SR can be solved by leading with it.
Having a spinner can come in handy too.

 

[Yuggles]

SubRoost Moltres is pure evil. In a good player's hands it's almost impossible to revenge kill, since even priority doesn't cut it. It resists Vacuum Wave/Mach Punch, and resists Ice Shard whilst Roosting. The only things that can deal with it are ExtremeSpeed (Arcanine only in UU) and Fake Out (which can only be done once). Moltres beats Arcanine most of the time, and Fake Out only working once just means a free Sub or Roost when you attack with something not named Fake Out. And, if you bring out a Scarfer, it's free to switch out and then come in when the threat is dealt with. It's too hard to play around methinks.

Extreemspeed and Fake Out do like 30% max, too, meaning they can't do much at all, and E-speed only has 4 PP against Moltres. Also Fake Out doesn't flinch if you have a sub up, something a lot of people forget. Stone Edge, the big threat to Moltres, is dealt with by stalling out it's PP. All bulky waters who come in on a sub get Toxic and stalled out by something else. Fast Electric types and Chansey/Clefable are troublesome, which is why Dugtrio is indeed a great choice with Moltres whether its running stall or offense.

I think Moltres is definitely suspect-worthy for, arguably, any of the 3 banning characteristics. Whether I'd choose to send it to BL, I'm not sure.

 

[A.P.]

Haha, I've been thinking about making this thread for a while, but you beat me to it, Jamasha.

Anyways, before I go any further, your lead set is specifically tailored for the OU metagame. What I've found in UU to work best is this:

Moltres@Choice Scarf
Modest, Pressure
72 HP/252 SpA/184 Spd
- Fire Blast/Overheat
- Air Slash
- HP [Grass]
- U-turn/Roost

The Speed EVs allow you to outspeed +2 Rhyperior, and the rest are poured into HP to give you great bulk. Due to this, Roost is an option, seeing that Moltres almost always forces the switch.

Is Moltres broken? No. Is it ridiculously powerful? Hell yes. On my team (see sig), I've used it to great success, where it was almost the primary sweeper of the team. But, like I say there, I don't perceive Moltres as a sweeper, rather as 'muscle', since it just plows through so many teams. Contrary to what others may have said, Spinning is ridiculously easy in this game (though you have to come in on something that you can force out, and be wary of Double Ghosts.

Moltres, like I said, simply plows through the UU metagame, few Pokémon actually can stop it.

Counters:
Milotic
Chansey
Altaria (w/o SR, and not coming into Air Slash)
Miltank

Semi-counters:
Lanturn
Blastoise
Azumarill

As you can see, Moltres is ridiculously powerful and effective in this metagame, with few, if any Pokémon, able to stop it, especially considering the spike in entry hazards, courtesy of things like Lass.

Honestly, I've been able to play smart so many times, and just lure in and take out/weaken the counter considerably, and from there it's an easy matter of sweeping (watch out for some faster/priority checks, and hax)

 

[Bluewind]

I remember very well playing Ap's team (dunno if it was an alt or someone using the team though) and Milotic turned out to be a shaky counter, not being able to survive 2 attacks from it. Here are some calculations of Hidden Power Grass: 383 Atk vs 286 Def & 394 HP (70 Base Power): 176 - 208 (44.67% - 52.79%).
That means a Modest Moltres has around 80% chance of KOing standart Milotic if it's caught switching in and if rocks are up.
On another note I'm glad someone started a discussion about Moltres, as I myself strongly believe it deserves a suspect status and am happy to know I'm not the only one to consider such thing.

 

[franky]

Moltres is stalls nightmare since your best bet against it is a Chansey. Moltres is incredibly hard to switch into when you have at least a layer of Spikes and Stealth Rock down. If you switch your Milotic on it, you are bound to lose it since it will die from Hidden Power Grass. Revenge killing it is your best option, but its usually not an easy task considering its high defensive bulk from both sides of the spectrum. (90/90/90 is nothing to scoff at). Priority hits really won't do much to it, with the exception of Aqua Jet of course.

Looking at ap's list:

Milotic
Chansey
Altaria (w/o SR, and not coming into Air Slash)
Miltank

Like previously mentioned, Milotic falls to Hidden Power Grass far too easily. You basically need Milotic at mint condition in order to check it. Chansey is your best bet since it can Toxic/Thunder Wave Moltres in return, rendering it useless. Altaria won't beat Moltres if its Altaria is running a defensive set, since the EVs are tailored to take hits rather than dish damage. It will never beat it. It will fall to Moltres' Pressure, eventually stripping Roost's PP. Miltank will have to rely on Body Slam paralysis to fully beat it. Even Miltank will not have time to attack since Air Slash will forced it to Milk Drink. 10 measly PP means it will only get 5 uses when facing Moltres, meaning it is not a counter.

Out of the entire list, CHANSEY is the best counter to Moltres. This speaks high volume of its ability to hurt many things. Remember, when you name a counter you have to consider what they counter will do in return. Mantine is one of the best checks thanks to its monstrous Special Defense stat. If I was to tweak the list this would be mines:

Best check:

Mantine
Chansey

Semi-check:

Milotic
Azumarill
Kabutops (Aqua Jet will not OHKO if Moltres is in mint health)

 

[Bluewind]

Best check:

Mantine
Chansey

Semi-check:

Milotic
Azumarill
Kabutops (Aqua Jet will not OHKO if Moltres is in mint health)

Add Sunny Day support to the formula and you'll see Moltres has a pathetic counter list, composed of... Chansey... period (it won't like taking boosted Fire Blasts though...).

 

[Random Pizzaman]

^^^ Dont forget that Miltank can outspeed Moltres easily and run Rock slide.

 

[-Meowth-]

Add Sunny Day support to the formula and you'll see Moltres has a pathetic counter list, composed of... Chansey... period (it won't like taking boosted Fire Blasts though...).

That.Life Orb Fire Blast under the sun does 44% - 52% to WishChansey.

In conclusion, there are no real safe switch ins to the sunny beamer. The best way to deal with Moltres is revenge killing it.

 

[M BLADE]

^^^ Dont forget that Miltank can outspeed Moltres easily and run Rock slide.

Yes, Thick Fat Miltank is actually one of the best if not the best counter to Moltres. The fact it resists Fire Blast, can recover its health and has the option to outspeed Moltres is a combination of facts only Miltank holds(in UU).

Even the Sunnybeam set has problems with a speedy Miltank. Together with Mantine, it's the best check to Moltres(Chansey aside).

 

[Leman]

Miltank isn't really a counter, tbh. Modest Moltres needs a single layer of spikes and SR to get a pretty good chance to 2HKO 252/252 Calm. (Does: 39.1% - 46.4%). And it gets outstalled pretty badly by the SubRoost set. Faster versions take: 47.5% - 56.3%. Its not really going to be able to switch in multiple times without giving something like Mismaguis a free switch in and set up.

I agree with Heysup's comment about Moltres's speed. The amount of stuff that can revenge kill Moltres is horribly annoying, especially when Stealth Rocks are up. if it has 10-15 more base speed it would be (in my mind at least) obviously BL.

 

[Thund91]

I believe Slowking is a counter. Not 100% sure if it's 2HKO'd by Hidden Power grass though....

 

[Maci12]

Moltres can be challenging for UU teams to face, especially in an environment where Balance rules (at least, most of the matches I play are Balance vs. Balance). I personally don't have problems Moltres in UU; having a Milotic / Azumarill provide an almost assured win against Offensive variants. Against SubRoost, SubCharge Rotom or SubCM Raikou win if you predict correctly and get behind a Sub (not hard if you come in while they are behind a Sub).

Stealth Rock is a major problem for Moltres, and though it can be solve by forcing switches, if Moltres Roosts on the switch, it will often be forced out, only to come and take 50% later on in the match. Obviously, Stealth Rock hasn't been a problem for a Suspect's sucessful nomination and removal to BL in the past, but Moltres lacks either of Yanmega's useful abilities to defeat swith ins.

In order to get past counters such as Milotic, Moltres needs to run a Modest nature, meaning that it opens itself up to a countless number otherwise slower threats, such as Gallade or Venusaur (outspeeds for Sleep Powder). Moltres is also stopped by faster threats, such as the aforementioned Rock Slide Miltank, Rotom, Raikou, TB Mismagius, and Floatzel before SR damage, and many more can KO it with neutral hits after SR damage.

I find that my UU teams are prepared for Moltres needing to overthink countering it. While it has great stats and offensive typing, it has huge drawbacks that keep it in balance where it is.
====================================================
Best Counters - Can switch in and stop Moltres from sweeping.
====================================================

- Stops all variants.

- Stops all variants.

- Stops all Offensive Variants & SubRoost Variants with ~80%.

- Stops all Offensive Variants.

- Stops all Offensive Variants.
====================================================
Checks - Can't switch in directly but usually win once their in.
====================================================
- Once in, all variants lose with correct prediction.

- Once in, all variants lose with correct prediction.

- Despite resisting Fire attacks, it takes a hefty amount from them. It can, however, revenge Moltres to great effect.

- It resists both of Moltres' STABs, and Aqua Jet does a hefty amount to it (doesn't OHKO). If Moltres takes SR, then Kabutops wins.

 

[Erazor]

Franky, just remember that Pressure only affects attacking moves - Roost and Milk Drink and all have their regular PP.

 

[M BLADE]

Miltank isn't really a counter, tbh. Modest Moltres needs a single layer of spikes and SR to get a pretty good chance to 2HKO 252/252 Calm. (Does: 39.1% - 46.4%). And it gets outstalled pretty badly by the SubRoost set. Faster versions take: 47.5% - 56.3%. Its not really going to be able to switch in multiple times without giving something like Mismaguis a free switch in and set up.

I agree with Heysup's comment about Moltres's speed. The amount of stuff that can revenge kill Moltres is horribly annoying, especially when Stealth Rocks are up. if it has 10-15 more base speed it would be (in my mind at least) obviously BL.

Rock Slide OHKO Moltres. That's enough to make Miltank a counter if it can switch on any attack and KO it back before it gets KOed(which isn't likely to happen because every Miltank has Milk Drink).


Miltank CAN take all of Moltres versions(Subroost:Heal Bell)

And the Mismagius thing: is Pursuit bait to the likes of Ambipom or Skuntank.

Oh: also Regirock with Rest takes out every Moltres too, and Slowking is probably the best offensive Moltres counter, Thunder Waving Moltres/whatever switches in and Slack Off it's health back.