M&M Mix and Mega

AND THE FISH AND BEAR ARE STILL FREE man these people such inverted priorities. wet urshifu is thoroughly mediocre, easily out offensed and can be out defensed if desired by great common mons, quaquaval is just as good and has recovery to be able to make use of taunt to cripple walls and would be counters. gholdengo is good, not op and not even great anymore with how good the competition is, its only somewhat annoying capability is being able to sac itself to disable better mons than itself like ursaluna and certain arceus sets once scouted, but thats literally how pokemon is meant to work. the council hardly plays the meta they preside over and dont even play test any of the bans, the order of operations is to ban the most op things first *ursaluna, basculeigon, pidgeotite* and after several days to weeks later after a shift in strategy is seen and developed then get around to banning the underwhelming yet occasionally annoying sets. a revival blessing cheese team with redorb ursaluna and scarf basculeigon got to rank 1649 and they out here banning mons that havent even gotten above 1600 yet jeesh please test the meta before changing it irreperably. short list of obvious things objectively more bannable/restrictable than wet urshifu and gholdengo: basculeigon, ursaluna, arceus, regieleki, zamazenta, pidgeotite, the move extreme speed. all of those things are objectively more impactful and centralizing for the meta and yet still most of which are perfectly fine with no action being taken on them whatsoever
 
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Clas

my main tier is yes
is a Tiering Contributor
AND THE FISH AND BEAR ARE STILL FREE man these people such inverted priorities. wet urshifu is thoroughly mediocre, easily out offensed and can be out defensed if desired by great common mons, quaquaval is just as good and has recovery to be able to make use of taunt to cripple walls and would be counters. gholdengo is good, not op and not even great anymore with how good the competition is, its only somewhat annoying capability is being able to sac itself to disable better mons than itself like ursaluna and certain arceus sets once scouted, but thats literally how pokemon is meant to work. the council hardly plays the meta they preside over and dont even play test any of the bans, the order of operations is to ban the most op things first *ursaluna, basculeigon, pidgeotite* and after several days to weeks later after a shift in strategy is seen and developed then get around to banning the underwhelming yet occasionally annoying sets. a revival blessing cheese team with redorb ursaluna and scarf basculeigon got to rank 1649 and they out here banning mons that havent even gotten above 1600 yet jeesh please test the meta before changing it irreperably. short list of obvious things objectively more bannable/restrictable than wet urshifu and gholdengo: basculeigon, ursaluna, arceus, regieleki, zamazenta, pidgeotite, the move extreme speed. all of those things are objectively more impactful and centralizing for the meta and yet still most of which are perfectly fine with no action being taken on them whatsoever
all of us are playing privately to not leak ompl teams, i can say on their behalf theyre playing minimum 10-20 solid games a week + building multiple teams, bc thats exactly what im doing and im not council either.

urshifu and gholdengo were broken bc they required specific counterplay and usually they could break through their supposed checks with ample prediction or prep (e.g. ispinner urshifu for dnite and pidgeotite gholdengo for blissey)

basc is kinda crazy but with scarf it honestly lacks enough damage to be considered on a lot of teams for me, and this isnt even mentioning the prevalence of slowbro walling it until 2 or more kos later. sswim band is really potent, but rain is a huge commitment and has its limits.

ursaluna is just kinda shit with orb, like fire punch is weak even with sun, and all youre doing is switching into eleki, threatening corv (which is on the downtick) and the rare blue orb mon, which i dont find valuable enough (sorry stresh). youre better off using pinsirite for mons like gzap and lop tusk or aero for generally more damage while still keeping your ability to threaten corv with 1.3x fire punch.
 
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In my personal opinion, urshifu's restriction was completely unjustified and should be genuinely tested again for a few reasons

1: about every espeed user can kill urshfiu (with pinsirite, salamencite, and, Altarianite)

2: urshifu has a problem with outspeeding opponents (so it would have to result to using diancite or otherwise it dies instantly)

3: this one doesn't really help with the justification of urshifu's restriction but its quite obvious that espeed users should be tested two

4: urshifu had problems dealing with gholdengo with most of its sets

5: urshifu in general wasn't a sweeper but more of a better cleaner of barraskewda @ lopunnite which gets walled easily (both honestly do)

6: with the spread of dragon types and even bulkier options, urshifu isn't really equiped to deal with them besides stab S-Strikes which doesnt help​
 

Clas

my main tier is yes
is a Tiering Contributor
In my personal opinion, urshifu's restriction was completely unjustified and should be genuinely tested again for a few reasons

1: about every espeed user can kill urshfiu (with pinsirite, salamencite, and, Altarianite​
but how are they switching in in the first place? arcanine, eleki, and (for the three people using it) lucario are ohkoed, while dragonite needs altarianite and rocks off the field to switch into ice spinner once, and even then it needs to somehow roost at some point. ofc, it can always have uturn or tpunch instead, but its still not safe to.
2: urshifu has a problem with outspeeding opponents (so it would have to result to using diancite or otherwise it dies instantly)
metagrossite urshifu is one of the faster mons weve had, i cant think of any faster mons that are common past eleki and diancite gholdengo
3: this one doesn't really help with the justification of urshifu's restriction but its quite obvious that espeed users should be tested two
which ones? dragonite was borderline pre-home but now isnt, eleki is fine, arcanine is healthy, and ekiller is... yeah you have a fair point for this one
4: urshifu had problems dealing with gholdengo with most of its sets
urshifu commonly forced out gholdengo unless it was sub diancite that was already +2 somehow
5: urshifu in general wasn't a sweeper but more of a better cleaner of barraskewda @ lopunnite which gets walled easily (both honestly do)
urshifu was a wallbreaker, not a cleaner, and an incredible one at that. its also just better than skewda bc stone freedom + sd + uturn option
6: with the spread of dragon types and even bulkier options, urshifu isn't really equiped to deal with them besides stab S-Strikes which doesnt help
ice spinner. just ice spinner. i get why you might have said this bc the ursh on ladder ive seen had an unoptimal set (no sd diancite w/ stabs uturn ajet fsr) but ursh had an insane damage output with blue/meta, especially the latter
 
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whatever the snake man said, i got some things to say

1) urshifu isn't exactly a effiecent sweeper since it gets countered by toxapex and just really anything physically bulky and/or resists and possibly should be sololy used as a lead (since its not gonna do much otherwise)

2) the espeed users are indeed overpowered and should be checked (because some one shot even bulky mons)

3) even without the gholdengo restriction, urshifu at most swept half the team in the lower ladders (mainly cause people use some niche set that has one move that gets them hooked)

4) (even though rarely) people can easily read urshifu since he relies of super effective hits to deal meaningful damage atleast 99.99% of the time

5) urshifu has a base speed of 137 with metagrossite which doesnt actually outspeed many things and even if it has that edge of outspeeding, most teams pack a mon to outspeed just about everything

6) just the fact of gholdengo and urshifu being restricted while espeed users stayed is stupid to me (like they literally kill any neutral or super effective hit) and most of them resist each other, which means they are unbalanced to a point where you have to pack a espeed mon or a psychic terrain/surge mon or otherwise your fucked

7) thats really only mentioning dnite, and yes, if you do the calculations (252 Atk Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 94-112 (30.9 - 36.8%) -- 69.2% chance to 3HKO and 252 Atk Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 116-138 (29 - 34.5%) -- 4.7% chance to 3HKO ) its not exactly able to kill bulky mons like corviknight @ sablenite and toxapex @ sablenite

8) just because urshifu has ice spinner doesnt exactly mean it's safe from dnite and the other dragons

9) and gholdengo does not get switched out by urshifu (with metagrossite) i can agree if its diancite but def not metagrossite or scizorite, gholdengo has the potential to just straight up one shot most of the metagame's bulky mons
 

cat

anemoia
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1) urshifu isn't exactly a effiecent sweeper since it gets countered by toxapex and just really anything physically bulky and/or resists and possibly should be sololy used as a lead (since its not gonna do much otherwise)
i thought this was obvious, but shifu can just U-Turn when it notices that pex is on the team, forcing it to take chip. while sure, this "chip" can be healed off by a pre-mega regen, but shifu / teammates could force it to mega eventually
2) the espeed users are indeed overpowered and should be checked (because some one shot even bulky mons)
?
3) even without the gholdengo restriction, urshifu at most swept half the team in the lower ladders (mainly cause people use some niche set that has one move that gets them hooked)
ladder, especially low ladder, isnt a good measure at all
4) (even though rarely) people can easily read urshifu since he relies of super effective hits to deal meaningful damage atleast 99.99% of the time
u-turn out
5) urshifu has a base speed of 137 with metagrossite which doesnt actually outspeed many things and even if it has that edge of outspeeding, most teams pack a mon to outspeed just about everything
be real. what isnt 137 outspeeding?
6) just the fact of gholdengo and urshifu being restricted while espeed users stayed is stupid to me (like they literally kill any neutral or super effective hit) and most of them resist each other, which means they are unbalanced to a point where you have to pack a espeed mon or a psychic terrain/surge mon or otherwise your fucked
different roles, and there is a ton of cplay to -ate speed
7) thats really only mentioning dnite, and yes, if you do the calculations (252 Atk Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 94-112 (30.9 - 36.8%) -- 69.2% chance to 3HKO and 252 Atk Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 116-138 (29 - 34.5%) -- 4.7% chance to 3HKO ) its not exactly able to kill bulky mons like corviknight @ sablenite and toxapex @ sablenite
that isnt taking into account SD and TClaws at all
+2 252 Atk Metagrossite Tough Claws Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Sablenite Corviknight on a critical hit: 273-324 (68.4 - 81.2%) -- approx. 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Metagrossite Tough Claws Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Sablenite Corviknight: 238-280 (59.6 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Metagrossite Tough Claws Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Latiasite Toxapex: 210-248 (69 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
8) just because urshifu has ice spinner doesnt exactly mean it's safe from dnite and the other dragons
? none of them can switch in safely, and like i said earlier, the shifu user can predict the dnite switch-in and ice spinner on the switch
9) and gholdengo does not get switched out by urshifu (with metagrossite) i can agree if its diancite but def not metagrossite or scizorite, gholdengo has the potential to just straight up one shot most of the metagame's bulky mons
252 SpA Diancite Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagrossite Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: 213-252 (62.4 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Metagrossite Tough Claws Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Diancite Gholdengo on a critical hit: 414-489 (109.5 - 129.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
?

also im not saying it can afford every move, it needs cc, ss, tpunch, so you need to figure out if its SD or U-Turn

and im ngl i didnt get that much playtesting with it but from basic theorymonning i can see that it was relatively restrictworthy
 

cat

anemoia
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4% chip against toxa, definitely huge man
i dont think you understand the point there. shifu does around 10% with u-turn and that 10% becomes 22% with rocks. and if it wasn't obvious enough, the main reason anyone is even using u-turn is so they can pivot into something that forces pex out on the switch.
anything running diancite, literally any regeleki set (yes, even sablenite regeleki), any Barraskewda evo, etc need I go on?
you do know that diancite isn't just slappable on every offensive mon, right? and that's not the point, urshifu was a wallbreaker, not an anti-offense mon like dnite. 137 is outspeeding everything it needs to outspeed, and gets a nice bonus of outspeeding around 53 listings in the speed tiers (it is pretty outdated tho)
espeed users keep each other in check, remove any one of them and you must remove them all (reg-altarianite/refrigerate counters dnite, arc-h altarianite counters reg, all sorts of things counter arc-h)
? there are plenty of checks to all the -ate speed users like hippo.

just pretend ekiller isnt real
 
Survey Link

We're mostly done with all the obvious quickbans post home, so we think it's time we heard thoughts from the community. This survey primarily focuses on what we think are the most likely future actions, but there's room for write-ins for anyone who has concerns we didn't cover. We'll probably start voting based on the results next weekend, but the survey will remain open beyond that for anyone who has something they want to say!


Edit:
Some of the initial responses didn't fill out their smogon usernames; without that, they will not be counted. The survey has been edited to make that required for future submissions
 
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whatever the snake man said, i got some things to say

1) urshifu isn't exactly a effiecent sweeper since it gets countered by toxapex and just really anything physically bulky and/or resists and possibly should be sololy used as a lead (since its not gonna do much otherwise)

2) the espeed users are indeed overpowered and should be checked (because some one shot even bulky mons)

3) even without the gholdengo restriction, urshifu at most swept half the team in the lower ladders (mainly cause people use some niche set that has one move that gets them hooked)

4) (even though rarely) people can easily read urshifu since he relies of super effective hits to deal meaningful damage atleast 99.99% of the time

5) urshifu has a base speed of 137 with metagrossite which doesnt actually outspeed many things and even if it has that edge of outspeeding, most teams pack a mon to outspeed just about everything

6) just the fact of gholdengo and urshifu being restricted while espeed users stayed is stupid to me (like they literally kill any neutral or super effective hit) and most of them resist each other, which means they are unbalanced to a point where you have to pack a espeed mon or a psychic terrain/surge mon or otherwise your fucked

7) thats really only mentioning dnite, and yes, if you do the calculations (252 Atk Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 94-112 (30.9 - 36.8%) -- 69.2% chance to 3HKO and 252 Atk Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 116-138 (29 - 34.5%) -- 4.7% chance to 3HKO ) its not exactly able to kill bulky mons like corviknight @ sablenite and toxapex @ sablenite

8) just because urshifu has ice spinner doesnt exactly mean it's safe from dnite and the other dragons

9) and gholdengo does not get switched out by urshifu (with metagrossite) i can agree if its diancite but def not metagrossite or scizorite, gholdengo has the potential to just straight up one shot most of the metagame's bulky mons
i would beleive you, but show me the math first. also, show me replays where this happens
 

Redflix

Forgiven and Hanged
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Double post (:sob:)

Firstly, Updated Samples are Now Live!

Secondly, hayedenn has decided to step down from the council. Thanks for the help throughout and for sticking around for when the tier was going through a dormant phase. To compensate and increase the council number, please welcome Career Ended and Icemaster to the council! Both have shown to be extremely knowledgeable about the current state of the meta and their help would be greatly appreciated as we look to update the resources.

Finally, As the recent suspect tested ended with Magearna staying free, We will go ahead with a Pidgeotite Suspect Test. Expect it to go live soon.
 
Drat, and I had a whole spiel ready for Magearna. Oh well, into the wastebin it goes. Anyways, it's been a minute since I've had anything to say so I figured I'd give my "extremely relevant" opinions on things.

I'll go ahead and just put out the (most likely) popular sentiment of Pidgeotite needing to go by this point. Even if we doinked Zap Cannon again, there's one too many excellent users beyond extremely specific and already banned 'mons, and it was definitely a relevant factor in Mage's recent suspect test, even if it wasn't the primary cause. Even though its pool of actually relevant abusers is much smaller than other really broken stones, it tends to just enable some really nasty degeneracy that we're not seeing anywhere else thanks to moves like the already aforementioned Zap Cannon, or even just Thunder and Hurricane's respective 30% chance to inflict "fun".

This one's definitely more out of left field, but I kinda feel like Screens, more specifically Light Clay, may need looking at in the near future. While technically always feasible to run; Screens as a playstyle has never been super prominent, but has gained some small amount of popularity, and it's not hard to see why: Stuff gets really really wacky when you can hide already bulky sweepers behind 1/2 damage for 7 or so turns, and when not every team is running Defog Corviknight, it turns Screens into a pretty nasty MU fish with already dangerous 'mons like Arc suddenly gaining the free turns it needs to boost up and begin rolling over even well-prepared teams. In previous gens Screens wasn't seen likely due to the prominence of Defog, but also just the raw teambuilding sink of running a dedicated screens user. This gen it seems, it's a good bit easier to fit a screens abuser and significantly harder to remove them for the opponent, unless again, they're running a Defogger.

Spectrier has gone pretty hard under the radar since Home dropped, but it's definitely worth putting on the radar. Spectrier didn't get a huge amount in the generational shift, but it did get two very important tools, namely a reliable -ate STAB option in Tera Blast, and a pseudo recovery option in Draining Kiss(which it can gain STAB on or at least boost in damage). Spectrier is already really really good at clicking Shadow Ball, but the two new movepool additions give it very viable options to break past otherwise consistent switchins, and Draining Kiss in particular gives SubPlot(or SubCM) sets a near unhealthy amount of consistency. This of course doesn't count its already great base speed and extemely good Sp. Atk. for the current meta, or ability to efficiently break apart balance cores thanks to Hex/Wisp and Taunt. While its otherwise atrocious movepool and middling at best physical bulk hold it back, Spectrier is definitely well positioned to roll over a significant amount of the meta.

And finally, I'd like to bring up another 'mon that has simply dropped off in popularity, but is well positioned to make a strong comeback: Garganacl. While pretty suspect-worthy pre-home, Garg is now significantly healthier for the meta and has several notable niches that many other MnM residents would kill to have, but has dropped off a cliffside in terms of usage/popularity. While the old IronPress set still exists, Garg's walling and stalling capabilities are more relevant than ever nowadays. Nothing Post-Home likes being Salt Cured, and Magearna in particular HATES it(It needs to run a Steel move just to make Garg care and even then the Aggronite sets barely care at all), and levitating or even Pinsirite variants can very effectively sit on several Arceus variants and many ground types, being able to spread its favorite damaging move and sometimes even find a chance to set up or throw some Stealth Rocks up. Generally excellent choice in current meta provided you can support it effectively.
 
So, I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask, but...I've noticed that all the Gen 7 and onwards documentation mentions that Ultranecrozium Z is the one exception to the "all form-changing items" rule, because it's hard to come up with a definitive reason to use Dusk Mane or Dawn Wings as the base form when calculating which boosts the item gives to non-Necrozma Pokémon. But what if you used default Necrozma as the base form?

This creates an item that gives +60 Attack, +40 SpAtk, and +8 SpDef, while reducing Defense by 4 and Speed by 2, for an overall BST boost of 102, slightly more than a standard Mega.

I also assume that I'm not the first to mention this specific idea, and that most of the counterarguments would be "that's not how the item works in the cartridge games. Base Necrozma doesn't use the item, the fused Necrozmas do." I could also see an argument with, how much that item boosts the Attack and Special Attack stats, this would basically be Beedrillite 2.0.

But I wanted to throw it out there.
 

Clas

my main tier is yes
is a Tiering Contributor
So, I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask, but...I've noticed that all the Gen 7 and onwards documentation mentions that Ultranecrozium Z is the one exception to the "all form-changing items" rule, because it's hard to come up with a definitive reason to use Dusk Mane or Dawn Wings as the base form when calculating which boosts the item gives to non-Necrozma Pokémon. But what if you used default Necrozma as the base form?

This creates an item that gives +60 Attack, +40 SpAtk, and +8 SpDef, while reducing Defense by 4 and Speed by 2, for an overall BST boost of 102, slightly more than a standard Mega.

I also assume that I'm not the first to mention this specific idea, and that most of the counterarguments would be "that's not how the item works in the cartridge games. Base Necrozma doesn't use the item, the fused Necrozmas do." I could also see an argument with, how much that item boosts the Attack and Special Attack stats, this would basically be Beedrillite 2.0.

But I wanted to throw it out there.
I can't lie here, I was (and still am) for reintroducing this as a Mega Stone as there is OM precedent for how we could treat it (I forget which metagame but it was a fusions one that decided type with a Pokemon being Shiny or not, you can look on rom.psim.us), and if I'm remembering correctly then this was also slightly talked about. However, it's not in line with other Mega items so we didn't in the end. As stated before, I would be fully for reintroducing it as it's a really cool item, but it would need its own full discussion and code implementation.
 
I have a couple ideas regarding Unecro transformations that might work.

1. (cheap method) Higher Atk stat leads to the transformation that gives more Atk and same logic for SpA.

2. Pick one transformation to be shiny and one to be regular, however this might give hints in team preview. You might want to slap random shinies to throw off opponents.

3. 30 Atk IVs leads to the transformation that gives more SpA and same logic the other way around.

4. (too difficult probably) Make two separate items just for this.

I think this is a neat item and advocate it for it to be introduced in some way.
 
I can't lie here, I was (and still am) for reintroducing this as a Mega Stone as there is OM precedent for how we could treat it (I forget which metagame but it was a fusions one that decided type with a Pokemon being Shiny or not, you can look on rom.psim.us), and if I'm remembering correctly then this was also slightly talked about. However, it's not in line with other Mega items so we didn't in the end. As stated before, I would be fully for reintroducing it as it's a really cool item, but it would need its own full discussion and code implementation.
After suspects for pidgeotite, and whatever else may be in line are done, could it be looked into? I think it'd be a rather fun addition.
 

Clas

my main tier is yes
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After suspects for pidgeotite, and whatever else may be in line are done, could it be looked into? I think it'd be a rather fun addition.
I'm not one to speak on this anymore as I'm not council, but there is always the possibility. There would need to be nearly unanimous agreement from both the MnM counil and OM staff along with an actual reason to be added (and Ultranecrozium Z is a weird one to implement)
 
if Ultranecrozium Z were to be based off of the change from Necrosma to Dusk/Dawn then itd be broken, universal access to Filter with a choice of an addition between 2 amazing types of either steel or ghost. if it were to be based off of Dusk/Dawn to Ultra Necrozma it would still be very good if not broken for an insane boost to speed of 52 and a 54 point boost to one of the attacking stats, itd only be held back by the addition of the dragon typing which doesnt usually allow for good dual stab on offensive mons
 

Clas

my main tier is yes
is a Tiering Contributor
if Ultranecrozium Z were to be based off of the change from Necrosma to Dusk/Dawn then itd be broken, universal access to Filter with a choice of an addition between 2 amazing types of either steel or ghost. if it were to be based off of Dusk/Dawn to Ultra Necrozma it would still be very good if not broken for an insane boost to speed of 52 and a 54 point boost to one of the attacking stats, itd only be held back by the addition of the dragon typing which doesnt usually allow for good dual stab on offensive mons
You gain a secondary Dragon type and Neuroforce with boosts equivalent to each "base" (exactly the same as each other but mirrored) without a pre-Burst type change, so I wouldn't say so.
 

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