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I think we should have more then one option regarding Tera suspect. If it were up to me, this suspect would also have the option of restricting Tera when using Rusted Items. Tera was only strong on a scant few Pokemon previously and it is the advent of Rusted items that push it over the top as they now get boosted stats and Tera typing. If it is possible I suggest the council think about pulling a multiple option vote with one of them being restricting access to Tera whilst using Rusted Shield.
I think we should have more then one option regarding Tera suspect. If it were up to me, this suspect would also have the option of restricting Tera when using Rusted Items. Tera was only strong on a scant few Pokemon previously and it is the advent of Rusted items that push it over the top as they now get boosted stats and Tera typing. If it is possible I suggest the council think about pulling a multiple option vote with one of them being restricting access to Tera whilst using Rusted Shield.
I think we should have more then one option regarding Tera suspect. If it were up to me, this suspect would also have the option of restricting Tera when using Rusted Items. Tera was only strong on a scant few Pokemon previously and it is the advent of Rusted items that push it over the top as they now get boosted stats and Tera typing. If it is possible I suggest the council think about pulling a multiple option vote with one of them being restricting access to Tera whilst using Rusted Shield.
thats definitely the simplest and least invasive/controlling way to deal with the issue. shield+terra isnt too bad as is and if it was just ban the shield. the definition smogon uses for "complex" is simply whatever happens to conflict with the most recent decision or public statement smogon made. histeria around "complex" bans is more to maintain a consistent public image and to reduce workload. its understandable as a business decision
Alright, well it's time to discuss Terastallization.
Prior to the release of the Rusted items, I was extremely pro-tera, choosing a tera user over a mega had genuine drawbacks in regards to bulk/speed or power depending on item choice and I considered the general tradeoffs of being able to change type vice running a stone to be relatively healthy, with Chien Pao being a really solid example of a "balanced" tera user. While Tera Chien Pao is a sight to behold, being able to absolutely nuke teams out of existence if allowed to boost, it's also really prone to being revenged by anything faster, and doesn't have the bulk to take repeated priority even if it teras into an -ate resistance, compounded by its reliance on an item to hit significantly harder than running a more "traditional" Mega Stone. In general, Tera vs Mega was largely a choice between being able to hit harder when it counted against the consistency of higher speed/bulk, meaning less reliance on Sucker Punch to secure kills and not wearing itself down via LO/switching due to Choice lock.
The pool of "viable" tera users is/was limited and in general had what I'd consider healthy trade-offs in terms of teambuilding. However, Rusted Shield I think proves itself a little too effective with the power of Tera and gives a glimpse of a post-home/DLC meta where we're dealing with things with even more inflated base stats. This may come off as somewhat fear-mongery but I think that Tera should go now as opposed to trying to adapt to a mechanic that will almost certainly continue to increase in strength as future updates add more threats and players continue to experiment. While I generally agree that Tera by itself is (as of right now) not spectacular outside of the Shield, I also acknowledge that the mechanic itself is at fault and will only become better the more it stays.
I'd also like to mention how even in standard play, unrestricted Terastallization is very contentious amongst most of the community and it only barely dodged any form of tiering action(I would say that even with no tera ban in MnM, it should follow the original idea for restriction, which was that tera types are revealed prior to their use), but in the same token, MnM is not the same as standard play. This is both good, and bad, as unlike in MnM, the Tera mechanic in standard play is considered more of an expendable, one-of resource and is considered very valuable. Most Pokemon in standard play thus have more pressure in teambuilding and in battle to get the most out of their tera type choices as possible, and leads to a few consistent and relatively predictable options. What this translates into is that inefficient teras that only work for a select matchup tend to be less cost effective due to competing tera choices. Unless you're specifically building with that matchup in mind, once you pop your tera choice, any weaknesses resulting from that are ones you're stuck with and many "surprise Tera" sweepers tend to end up revenged with your tera slot now wasted. This is also the reason why "Defensive" tera is generally less effective, as it's coming at an opportunity cost of a more potentially useful choice that will generate more pressure. MnM does not have this same competition for tera slots or efficiency, as in 99% of cases, you're only running the one tera user and this heavily increases the pool of viable tera choices, with the ability to pick and choose your tera type for specific matchups over a more "generic" choice as you're not facing the same opportunity cost.
Now the reason why I'm talking about opportunity cost and type viability over just discussing Rusted Shield, is because I think that even if Rusted Shield is NOT provably broken with Tera, I think that at the end of the day, the mechanic is too powerful and will inevitably become the source of contention in the future and developing the meta on the path of the mechanic will lead nowhere. MnM has a lot of facets to teambuilding and play, and it's one of the many reasons why I love this OM, even if it's not the most popular one ever, but it still plays by a few hard and fast rules, one of which being that even with type changes via Mega Stone, your primary type is almost always exploitable. MnM favors bulky teamstyles for good reason, and the biggest one is probably the ability to scout out what your opponent is running and how best to work around their stone choices. Take Gholdengo for example, it's one of the most powerful 'mons in the tier and has a fairly large amount of flexibility in stone choice due to well rounded pre-mega stats and a good typing. No matter what stone Gholdengo chooses, it remains a Steel Type, with the weaknesses of Steel, and no matter what Stone it uses it remains weak to Fire(unless it chooses Venusaurite or Blue Orb, both super suboptimal choices and pretty much only fulfill the job of not being weak to fire in a meta where your opponent is going to almost always have a Ground) unless it goes explicitly out of its way to neutralize this and if it does so, it retains all of its other typing weaknesses. This means that even if Gholdengo picks something out of left-field as a stone choice, the answers to it can remain relatively consistent when teambuilding, and if it chooses something specifically to counteract those weaknesses, it has to compromise heavily.
Back to those bulky teamstyles and cores, another reason they get run is because they're often the best way to answer the very wide variety of threats MnM can produce, and are thus leaned on heavily to keep momentum on a team going(this is also why Hyper Offense tends to be a very difficult teamstyle to get working here, as trying to get favorable trades in a meta where many things can take hits is not only difficult, but leaves you vulnerable to the meta's speed control options). This means that said cores are also to a degree, exploitable as anything that breaks up bulky cores with extreme ease means that teams are now vulnerable to other threats. And what do you know, we have the perfect example which was just banned, Dragapult. Dragapult was not necessarily difficult to "beat" as it had basically no way of getting past some bulky fairies(and could barely touch anything running Fairy/Dragon typing) and was generally vulnerable to Pixiespeed or Sucker Punch as well as being stuck between being able to dump on Steels or Grounds between Hydro Pump/Fire Blast as well as being unimpressive bulk-wise, but banned it was. Dragapult absolutely excelled at breaking up bulky cores because it was nearly impossible to get safe switches into without very specific answers and could often force at least one KO on a vital member of your team either by nuking it itself, or forcing it to the point where it was too low to answer another threat to your team.
And finally, I get around to specifically Rusted Shield and Tera as a combination. By itself, Rust Shield is a relatively decent, if unimpressive item. It offers a strong defensive Typing in Steel, a useful bit of extra bulk, upgrades Iron Head into a strong Behemoth Bash, and gives you a once-per-battle Defense boost. Definitely not the most amazing choice ever, but still something worth using if you want to create a solid bulky sweeper as even without the boost, the defenses added are at least decent, you're rocks resistant, and immune to Toxic. -10 Speed seems pretty bad on paper, but most users either aren't noticing it or can quickly turn that speed drop around anyways. For example, several Dragon Dancers in the meta have found a decent niche using Rusted Shield to get a boost or two off and then go to town, using the added bulk of the Shield+the Defense boost to prevent revenge by Espeed or Sucker. Still relatively exploitable by some grounds, but strong enough to not require mounds of support either. This is where Tera comes into play and makes matchups so difficult. Tera is already fairly difficult to scout if you're unfamiliar with the Shield user and unlike Mega Evolution, it doesn't necessarily have to be activated ASAP to provide benefits, and where my position against it comes into play. Shield users are already pretty decently bulky and difficult to bring down immediately but the ability to change your type(once) on demand means that in many ways matchups can become functional coin flips of "well I don't know what type they're going to tera into, and they stand to remove something useful now that they're boosted". As I said, Steel is already a good defensive type with limited (but effective)coverage answers in Fighting, Ground, and Fire. While Ground types are common in the meta, the potential options to answer a Ground or Fire with tera are fairly wide, and thanks to the boost provided by Shield, don't necessarily require a hard resistance to avoid an OHKO or even 2HKO, and simply being able to skirt your answer to this threat can immediately change the game. This combined with the inherent difficulty in predicting tera typing or even if they'll tera, to me leads to what amounts to a game of chance that is generally in the favor of the tera user and can allow them to open up crucial holes in your team as a favorable trade. Unlike in standard play, there isn't necessarily a small or even predictable pool of already known tera types, as users can pick a defensive tera to skirt a check, or an offensive one to boost coverage/power at no opportunity cost, further increasing the associated risks.
In defense of Tera, these sweepers/breakers are not always consistent and there isn't an enormous pool of users that really shine using it as well as the generally unimpressive statline offered by Shield or the limitations of other held items, but in my personal opinion, tera enables too many matchup-fishy gamestates.
TL:DR Tera is too strong of a mechanic that will only become even more powerful as more Pokemon enter the metagame and enables gameplay that can often end up being very RNG heavy based on limited information for the opponent and the wide variety of Tera types that become viable due to a lack of opportunity cost and competition. The Rusted Shield is not overly powerful by itself, but has offered a preview of what tera enables in gameplay.
I found a bug with Protosynthesis and Megas where if you have the proto buff and then mega It still shows that it is there until you switch out. It shows that the stats change when i hover over my Wake it shows the SP.ATK is at the higher amount but the calcs dont line up.
I found a bug with Protosynthesis and Megas where if you have the proto buff and then mega It still shows that it is there until you switch out. It shows that the stats change when i hover over my Wake it shows the SP.ATK is at the higher amount but the calcs dont line up.
Yes, we are aware of this bug, and you are correct that it is just visible. Thank you for bringing it up regardless, but the truth is the effect is so minor it's not really worth the effort for someone to come up with a fix for it.
We have already have talks, but there is no conclusion yet. We do already know, however, that we'd have to hit 3 Pokemon at the same time (Baxcalibur, Roaring Moon, and Salamence), hence why its not conclusive yet.
Well, now that we're in a post-tera meta, I guess it's time for some good old meta discussion/breakdown. Ordinarily I'd give the meta some time to settle after a ban, but a lack of tera hasn't really changed much overall outside of there being less existential dread every time you see a Rusted Shield user, and the real meaty change to the meta was Dragapult's ban anyways.
Big Changes:
The removal of Dragapult has allowed bulky offense to once again shine, as well as the more recently added Orbs/Shield settling into their respective roles. The biggest effect of this is that -atespeeders have taken a bit of a hit to their power, as none of the currently available speeders are capable of answering Orb users without compromising on their moveslots, or are Lucario, who loses to everything anyways. Dragonite and Arcanine still remain major threats, but aren't quite as splashable as before.
The other result of this, as well as the (still) increasing usage of Rusted Shield has also led to Fighting as a typing no longer being quite as detrimental in the builder, as both Arc and Dnite usage have decreased somewhat and are less free to switch in.
Gholdengo and Gargnacl:
Probably the biggest threats roaming around at the moment, both of them benefitted immensely from Dragapult's removal, as it could easily throw out one of its STABs or use SE coverage against them. Gholdengo in particular is a menace at the moment, with both its Lati and Diancite sets often being difficult to check by default as well as being difficult to scout. Gargnacl is significantly easier to deal with.... most of the time. While its Rock typing remains as exploitable as ever, Garg continues to adapt to meta changes and remains a hard-to-break bulwark that can become an unstoppable win condition or force constant pressure to switch with Salt Cure. While its sets have answers, the reliability of those answers often depends on what set it decides to run.
Other stuff:
Much like in OU, Toxapex continues to rise in popularity, though more as a generalist wall here. Being able to reliably spread status and set Tspikes is fairly solid at the moment and it can also stop a lot of setup sweepers cold.
If you're looking for something new, Toxtricity is in a fairly good place to do the same thing it did the previous gen. There's very little in the meta that appreciates what's essentially a STAB blizzard coming off base 154 Sp. Atk, and Toxtricity backs that up with superb STAB Tbolt and Sludge Bomb. It lacks bulk, but has a solid typing and hits a lot of common team picks very hard. Shift Gear allows it to clean up easily and it resists the two most common forms of -atespeed as well as being immune to both poisoning and paralysis.
Sample Team:
This is a team I built shortly after the Pult ban, and it actually performed pretty well, so I decided to share. Ordinarily I'd use a Pokepaste, but it doesn't seem to be working at the moment.
Rain'n On Parades (Corviknight) @ Blue Orb
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Defog
- U-turn
- Drill Peck / Brave Bird
- Roost
Munches N Crunches (Roaring Moon) @ Metagrossite
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Crunch
- Iron Head
- Dragon Dance
- Roost
The Real Villain (Gholdengo) @ Latiasite
Ability: Good as Gold
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Recover
- Make It Rain
- Shadow Ball
Average Hippo (Hippowdon) @ Altarianite
Ability: Sand Stream
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Body Slam
- Slack Off
- Earthquake
Fuck It We Ball (Bellibolt) @ Red Orb
Ability: Electromorphosis
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 HP / 128 SpA / 128 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Slack Off
- Weather Ball
- Discharge
I'll provide a brief overview of the team and what it does here:
As I said, this was a team built shortly after the Pult ban to take advantage of the relative lack of competition in the "high speed breaker" crowd and is built to support a Diancite variant of Great Tusk, an already popular 'mon I also wanted to build a team that doesn't rely heavily on Espeed to answer everything like so many teams I often build.
Diancite Tusk was something I had theorymonned earlier in the gen as a slightly faster cousin to Diancite Gholdengo with a few differences. Normally Gholdengo is the go-to Diancite sweeper for its solid STABs and good typing that allows it to resist the most common way of revenging sweepers in Espeed, but in a lot of cases, it's a bit prone to getting stopped by a decently bulky attacker because Shadow Ball, for all of its reliability and the 20% hax chance, doesn't hit all that hard, and Make It Rain also hurts Ghold's sweeping potential by dropping its Sp. Atk. Tusk doesn't have one 120 BP STAB, but two of 'em, and neither drops its offenses, meaning that out of the box, Tusk is a bit more threatening without having to set up. This means that Tusk provides a little more value throughout a game as it can at least come in and click a STAB option and be threatening. Tusk's base 131 defense is also pretty good pre-mega, and it's backed up by an equally strong base 115 HP. Diancite drops this down to base 91, which isn't STELLAR but is more than adequate to take an unboosted hit or two, which is where bulk up comes in. It's no Swords Dance or Nasty Plot, I'll admit, but it turns most of Tusk's 3HKOs into 2HKOs and 2HKOs into OHKOs, as well as giving some extra insulation against priority. Tusk also hits a respectable base 147 Speed post-mega, which isn't necessarily the fastest around, but still outspeeds the majority of the unboosted meta.
Corviknight is Corviknight, and there's not a whole lot to say about it. This was initially a Venusaurite variant due to the higher physical bulk, but the Fire immunity provided by Blue Orb is just too good to pass up comparatively, and provides a lot more value for the team overall. Corv exists almost purely to remove hazards on occasion and otherwise provide a decent slow pivot into something that can actually do damage while also walling most Arcanine and Iron Moth/Volc
Roaring Moon was a more recent change to the team, as it was originally Hydregion. I wanted a relatively fast dark type that could handle Gholdengo as well as immediately threaten to set up and Hydregion seemed to fit the bill. Further testing revealed that while it could do the job most of the time, it wasn't as consistent as I'd like due to it getting worn down over the battles. Nasty Plot was great, and Draco Meteor allowed it to act as a slower, more dangerous Dragapult, but it just wasn't keeping up in the games I needed it to stay alive for more than a few turns, so out it went. Roaring Moon doesn't have the absolute nuclear power of a +2 Draco on hand, but it does have a much better speed tier and recovery on demand, as well as a bit more power on its Dark STAB by default. Iron Head is a somewhat niche choice, but it lets you hit fairies on the switch for decent damage and forces Garg to play the Flinch Roulette if it thinks it can get a free switch in. The higher base speed tier also means it answers both variants of Gholdengo pretty reliably, as it can take all the Shadow Balls it wants and can still come in on MiR as long as it's above 75% and Roost off the damage.
Latiasite Gholdengo exists as a way of answering other Ground types in the meta as well as blanket checking anything not carrying Dark/Ghost/Fire coverage and synergizes well with Corv's fire immunity, and both Hippo and Moon can offer the other resistances on demand. Nasty Plot lets it immediately threaten anything that thinks it can still try and sit on it. Lati Ghold remains a super consistent choice for scouting out other sets due to its phenomenal set of resists, but it still has a lot of bite.
No matter what team I build in this gen, Hippo manages to creep its way in somehow, and for good reason. Hippo probably wins the prize for most consistent and flexible Ground at the moment and has a bajillion viable stone/set combinations available to it. It sets rocks, it acts as a great win condition, it can phase, it has reliable recovery, great bulk, and solid base attack as well, and you can't ever assume you're safe around it until it's revealed the stone choice and that it's not running Curse or Whirlwind with some weird stone(seriously, hippo can run like 5 stones viably, including Sablenite, Venusaurite(lets it check a silly number of things), Pinsirite, Altarianite, and Red Orb, all equally good choices as well as a couple of more niche options if it really wants). In this case, hippo's running a standard Rocks set with Bslam/EQ to hit surprisingly hard and spread para, it's here to stay and put up rocks whenever it gets the chance. It unfortunately doesn't do amazingly well in the matchup vs other rocks setters and some removers, but it still is great at sitting on a lot of physical attackers and setup sweepers and can find a lot of chances to put rocks down.
I've talked about Bellibolt a time or two before, and it's here on this team as a bulky slow pivot, backup gholdengo check(the Sp. Def EVs allow it to take 2 unboosted Shadow Balls from full, or one +2, and KO back with Weather Ball), and to click THE BUTTON (I'm sure you can guess which one). Weather Ball is a strong, reliable way of hitting almost everything in the meta for good damage, with Discharge being there almost exclusively to hit water types and spread para. Belli's typing and resistances synergize pretty well with the rest of the team and while it does require hazard removal to keep doing the job, it's pretty much guaranteed to blow something up when it hits the field.
So how does the team play? Pretty decently from my experience. While it's heavily built towards getting Tusk in to click its big dumb STAB options, it doesn't HAVE to keep Tusk alive as the wincondition, but most games will feature Tusk getting 2-3 kills either to open up holes in the opposing team, or to clean up. Slow pivots are there so Tusk and Friends can get in safely, but the team itself has plenty of resistances and immunities that it can take advantage of to gain momentum.
I recently decided to finish making my first MnM team, but I wanted to use unconventional sets. I expected it to do horribly on ladder, but it did much better than anticipated, so I'd like to share a team that is definitely good and totally not bad!
Palafin @ Red Orb
Ability: Zero to Hero
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Blizzard
- Grass Knot
- Focus Blast
Palafin has a suprisingly good special coverage, and Red Orb, on top of blocking Water moves, boosts its Special Attack by quite a bit. Blizzard even catches many people off guard and OHKOs the many Dragon/Flying mons, including Dragonite! Red Orb also helps it defensively, getting rid of its Grass weakness, giving it a resistance to Fairy and Bug, giving it double resistances to Ice and Steel, and granting a Burn immunity! If you do decide to use this set yourself, bear in mind that Zero to Hero does not work with Red Orb, as it changes form immediately upon being sent out.
Slowbro is a very solid mon in MnM, but it's always been quite defensive. What if it was more offensive? With Diancite, not only does it get more Speed and Special Attack, allowing it to KO threats it previously couldn't, but you also have full access to the original bulk by not Mega Evolving right away. This is made even more useful due to its Ability Regenerator. I personally run a bulky set due to this, but a more offensive version with Speed investment could also be viable.
I wanted a bulky physical attacker, and what better special wall than Blissey? Thanks to Mewtwonite X, it has a usable Attack, and due to its massive HP stat, it barely takes any recoil from Double-Edge! It also has an amazing offensive typing in Normal/Fighting which has perfect neutral coverage aside from Normal/Ghost types. Thunder Punch, however, is able to hit it, and Zoroark-Hisui, the only Normal/Ghost type, tends to run special sets. Unfortunately, Blissey still suffers from its low Defense, but can often survive a hit due to its incredibly high HP and in any case is amazing for special attackers.
Thanks to Illusion, Zoroark-Hisui is able to set up Swords Dance and sweep with Body Slam and Low Kick. Since Lopunnite grants the Fighting type and Scrappy, It has perfect STAB neutral coverage. It also comes with the added bonus of being immune to Intimidate. Shadow Sneak is there for anything that outspeeds it. I've found that it does especially well if I'm able to make it disguise itself as Blissey, as special attackers will usually switch to something with Close Combat, which of course Zoroark-Hisui is immune to. Low Kick is sort of a weird move, but most Pokémon are heavy enough to make it work, and Body Slam works for lighter targets.
This thing is awesome. Due to Heracronite, it hits really hard, and has suprisingly good physical coverage. Gunk Shot, Flare Blitz, and Dragon Claw are all amazing move, and it also comes with Fake Out, which is good for chip damage and revenge killing. Wish I had more to say, but it's just your average glass cannon.
Skeledirge @ Blue Orb
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Slack Off
- Shadow Ball
- Earth Power
All jokes aside, I tried to justify this set for a really long time but just couldn't come up with anything. After all, Blue Orb just makes one of the types it's weak to even stronger and makes it unable to use its signature move. It's still Skeledirge, but there's literally no reason to run Blue Orb.
Hi nerds wanted to have a discussion on stuff
Gholdengo @ Pidgeotite
Ability: Good as Gold
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder
- Nasty Plot
- Shadow Ball
- Recover / Focus Blast
pidge gholdengo has started to gain popularity, thunder being 100% accurate really folds / cripples everything barring ground types, which are exactly two in number: premega clodsire (which would mega anyway) and great tusk (which hates sballs). np+sball+recover is self-explanatory. focus blast can be used over recover for potential normal types like blissey and dudunsparce and Red Orb Iron Jugulis.
Roaring Moon @ Pinsirite
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Roost
- Crunch
- Double-Edge
gotta say, corv is utter garbage. pins rmoon can now shine again! dedge+crunch 2hkos almost the entire tier, and u-turn is excellent momentum. on top of all that, it has got roost for longetivity.
okay, i am not very happy with the state of the metagames right now. building has become quite a pain, covering for every threat has become really awkward. there are 6 mons in particular id like to mention in brief: ghold's sets include diancite, latiasite and pidgeotite, and u can't basically cover for them all. it's become a building headache. red orb jugulis for diancite and latiasite? well too bad! have fun getting focus blasted (not to mention dia has started to run fblast too). clodsire walls? haha, I'm latiasite defensive! have fun acting as a setup fodder. although altarianite sets are definitely amazing, pinsirite is just...stupid. u just click ddance, and then ur opponent sable bro prays it doesn't get 2hkod (too bad, there were rocks!) Arc gets folded too after rocks and/or minimal chip. my campaign is still on: this mon is the stupidest of them all. realistically the only viable way to beat a garg is a clodsire, salt cure is just insanely annoying, and if it gets idef up have fun. also very annoying, the fact that it can get past "answers" like slowbro and skeledirge is stupid. lopunnite sets 2hko manec bro with headlong, and dirge can't switch-in if rocks are up. pins sets can just para past everything. honestly it just feels like u've to cope with lati ghold+manec bro. quite a hot take on this one. rmoon's sets include aero/meta/pins, and it's quite problematic too. for example, manecbro is good into pins variants, but folds to aero. although not as stupid as everything above, it's a threat that needs looking into. hazard stack is insane cuz our only realistically good control mon is tusk. idm clod too much but unbounceable toxic definitely is annoying, and its good bulk helps it in progressmaking a ton. our steels include gholdengo and magnezone, and none of them are too fond of running into clod.
I have tried MNM a little recently, I feel Gholdengo and Garganacl are a bit too overpowered.
Gholdengo can tech past literally everything (I have been using CM Blissey but Pidgeotite folds it, I have tried lopunnite mons like Pawmot but Diancite is way too fast, and Latiasite has an absurd defensive profile walling a bunch of stuff and also getting even more setup opportunities than it normally does), so if you don't have a hard switchin/pivot + faster mon which KOs, you're just going to lose depending on what Gholdengo the opponent has. It's very hard to try to outplay it or win first, when it's typing is so good that it finds setup opportunities everywhere. It's non mega ability is insane as well for denying defog.
Garganacl is a defensive mon which breaks most defensive core thanks to Salt Cure and Recovery only being 8PP. This means you're forced to rush it with offensive mons and this isn't even easy as few actually break Garganacl, even fewer have recovery (Gholdengo) and so you're on a timer to beat Garganacl before you just lose - and it's quite easy for Garganacl teams to have a good enough defensive core to switchin repeatedly to these threats anyway, so you can whittle them down and win. Actually, the only real downside to this mon is that it lets Gholdengo in unpunished if you click anything except Salt Cure. We can't use Covert Cloak or Leftovers in MNM without huge opportunity cost, so this makes Salt Cure even stronger. Coupled with Sandstorm and it simply does too much damage.
Here is a team I have been laddering with which uses the two of them quite well. Cameruptite Blissey lets me check non Pidgeotite Gholdengo, and gives me some offensive presence (breaking Toxapex, and heavily damaging or KOing Garganacls that switch in on CM) while still beating the special threats that Blissey should. https://pokepast.es/52e870fc27fb5193
We've heard several different candidates for taking action on next, and have been considering a few ourselves. There is, however, nothing that stands out to the level of an immediate quickban. so we've decided to open up the decision for our next move to the broader community! Please fill out the tiering survey and let us know your thoughts on the current metagame!
Hello, I just reached the top 1 ladder and I come to share my team. There were many changes, but the one I share was made post tera ban. https://pokepast.es/ac0bfa152c9bbf8c
I'm going to talk a little bit about the team.
-Iron Jugulis is pretty decent, its a bit weak to garganacle... But at least you can hit it with Focus Blast. Hurricane and Fire Blast that will never fail is pretty good even if the rival pokemon resists it.
-Garganacl is too good here. With the Sablenite he becomes almost immortal, and I think that only special attackers who hit him super effective and Toxic with mold breaker can stop him, and as you know that is scarce in the metagame. I sincerely believe that only Gholdengo can stop it consistently, since the others receive cheap damage.
-Arcanite is better than Dragonite in this team. While it will never make a 6-0 to the rival team, but it does not matter since its function is more to have an extreme speed user that is so necessary here. He has a psychic attack to kill Iron Moth.
-Great Tusk with Pinsirite serves more than anything to remove hazards from the game and never be blocked by the ability of Gholdengo and the ghost type. For everything else it is like a Great Tusk of OU with bulk up and the chance to paralyze with body slam.
-Clodsire with Water absorbs this to stop the opponent's water-like attacks. My team is too weak to the water type, and if the rival had a water-type pokemon with mold breaker (like the Gyaradosite) it would be my end ... For everything else it is a normal Clodsire that is capable of intoxicating Garganacle.
-I didn't want to put a Gholdengo... But it was necessary, since it is the perfect counter of Garganacle that many battles have already made me lose with the same set that I use in my team (hence I started using it). Everyone already knows it, the Gholdendo with Latiasite Nasty Plot Recover and 3 attacks.
At the moment that's it, I'll be back when they add new pokemon in SV
gm everyone
after doing a wonderful run in MnM Open, reaching the finals with my own teams and by playing absolutely perfectly at each rounds, I sadly got haxxed to death by a noob called "Redflix", who apparently is the Tier Leader here which makes no sens ?? I strongly suggest to yeet him immediatly bc he's really really bad and he's just stealing teams from better players but anyway not the point
I was asked to share the team I used in the thread because I actually built for the finals since all my teams were from the player I faced and yet I knew I was certainly gonna lose I didn't want to give him the advantage of knowing the paste of my teams SO I tried to build for the first time in gen9mnm, I do not think my teams are optimal, or even good, I did not test them, I've never build before, and I'm not a super good MnM player but they look fine sooo why not? I built 2 of them so I can comment a bit, the last one was provided by someone who plays even less MnM than me aka the retired Siamato but it's the only team that won a game in the finals (don't look at it though..) so I guess it isn't that bad ! I asked several teams from other players but I didn't like them much (they mostly felt too standard to me and I wanted to fish a bit flix to have a chance), it's not against you, I just wanted to play something I was relatively comfortable too (plus I can say I used bad teams to explain my lose, it has nothing to do with me playing like a dumbo)
anyway, moving to the point : the teams
The idea was : Gholdengo is absolutely broken and is a pain to deal with, when you don't bring Blissey you're weak to it, and since I used flix teams a lot I knew it could be hard to handle Diancite Ghold bc he often don't prep for it well. It was an obvious pick though cuz I complained a lot on how Gholdengo was a pain and he brought Blissey so I had Valiant in the back to bait/break Blissey/RMoon/defensive Moth whatever and bc it's hard to answer anyway added to Barraskewda because his answers were often Slowbro only, and usually w/o Psychic so it could have a nice MU. I was unsure between Ice Fang for Dragonite and Psychic Fangs for Pex, I should probably have used Ice Fang cuz Pex is less common, can be weakened by Valiant, Gholdengo likes it, and the team is really weak to priorities, but I made the wrong choice, faced Dragonite, got para'd to death with Corv and lost. I probably had a chance outside of that, but the idea was really 3 breakers he could be weak to, Corv + Slowking (it was originally Slowbro but I faced Siamato in my only test game where he used Slowking and I was like ok why not so I ended up bringing it three times, why not) to handle everythind and pivot on my breakers, and Arcanine to have some priority. I guess it works
This is the team made by Siamato with no exchanges between us, he built on his own (idt he even watched Redflix replays or anything), it follows a relatively similar process in Gholdengo + Jugulis good breakers, Thunder Dragonite to bait Corviknight and win with Great Tusk, Slowbro + Corv to handle everything. Dragonite had a -Def nature in the game but -SpD is prob better (I almost lost cuz of that, bc I made a stupid play too), and well nothing much to say, it's pretty standard outside of Slowking. Kinda sad that Redflix didn't brough any Corv in the first 2 games with Gholdengo specifially there to take advantage and overall a good prep against it, but I guess it was in his plan :c
This team was finished 2 mins before the game so uhn idk the idea was Pawmot bc it breaks the classic cores, I was afraid of Hippowdon, I met Hippowdon, I wanted to put Adamant Pawmot to deal with that, I forgot, sob. RMoon was there to ~ deal with Ghold kinda and is a funny mon, it performed surprisingly well in the game, Diancite Moth cuz he used Absolite Moth a lot so it could surprise his wall if they're calc'd for Absolite/Outspeed his own Moth, the rest is classic, BU tusk cuz I didn't like the other moves here, but idk. Funny team with a lot of pivots (The idea is to force Corv/Blissey/etc on the field and then put Pawmot and wallbreak, it's simple) but it could prob be better, like all my teams
That's all for me ! Have a good day everyone, and gratz once again to my bro flix for almost not winning a mnm tour before me.
Now that open is over, i wanna share my thoughts as well as post team for sample submission
: The mon has been on watchlist for a while now and honestly i still dont think its broken. Throughout my run i found myself pretty comfortable with facing garg as i think a lot of its answers - clod / toxapex / physical fighting types / ghold / pidge valiant are extremely good in the meta and u would find atleast 2 of them in most teams. Another thing i wanna talk about is how certain slower special pivots are under utilized in the current meta which can improve ur match up vs garg. Stuff like rotom-w and magnezone while dont wanna directly switch-in to gargancal, are solid momentum inducing mons that can do well vs plenty of garg builds. Overall, i dont think garg has shown anything in open replays or in general for me to think it needs to go and i feel like the meta has adapted well to it atm
: The other mon on the watchlist is something im not too sure on. I really like latiasite ghold and imo it offers really great role compression and is vital for a lot of team structures. It also helps keeping a lot of mons (dnite / tusk / garg) in check. I also personally never had any real complaints about diancite np + 3 attacks or np recover + stab set however, the rising popularity of diancite substitute sets (especially in HO) is something that makes ghold a big pain for teams. Best example is probably my g3 vs qt where all i needed was to get the predict right with ghold on corvi. Still confused as to what pidgeotite does tho, as it feels like ur trading the defensive capability of latiasite to be in a weird speed tier and i genuinely feel its just inferior to diancite. In the end, im still leaning no ban as there are defensive checks (sable moth / blissey) that mostly do well as well as offensive one's but i get the frustration of the community behind this mon and this is most likely looking like our next tiering action.
My overall opinion of the meta is still positive atm altho i feel like a lot of it has been explored and i was struggling to find something innovative for later rounds of the open. There are still stuff that def have a niche that dont see much use like Iron Hands , Rusted Shield and Ceruledge. Cant wait for home to drop soon
Here are some of the teams i used / passed to peeps for open :-
Pretty much the same team i posted for the last suspect but i think its extremely solid and works well for the meta. Just 6 solid mons that work together and take advantage of the fact that pult got yeeted. Used it plenty of times and ik a lot of people i passed it to also did as well.
Vs qt i built with barra due to it being the fastest lopunnite user and i knew qt likes ghold + garg builds so future sigh + barra seemed like an ideal choice.. Rotom-F cuz i wanted a special pivot which did not do 0 to garg and while Rotom-W was my first choice, its pretty much ass vs unmega evolved clodsire and i didnt wanna take the risk.
P much slapped Iron Thorns on the rusted shield bax offense i posted for the previous meta. Unfortunately, the match up against garg is a bit shaky and im p sure it can be improved but i was too lazy and gholdengo with sub beats a lot of builds on its own anyway so /shrug
Finals vs Osake, I didnt wanna use my traditional corvi or bro cores considering he had all my teams and i was certain a cteam was coming. I also tried to cteam my own builds incase he just brought my teams with some changes and thought red orb hands + rotom kinda worked. Lati skeld + blissey kinda ticked all the boxes i wanted in a defensive core and overall the team looked solid.
I plan to update the samples asap so if anyone does have a team they have had success with and want to showcase, i'd insist that they post it in the thread within the next day or so
Mix and Mega council has decided to suspect Gholdengo!
First of all, Gholdengo is being suspected! It's long been a controvertial pick, but the survey results have picked it out as the single most commonly responded to element. As such, we feel it is only fair to leave it up to the community as to its final decision. Check out the suspect thread here.
Secondly, survey results! I would like to thank everyone who participated; we got 35 responses that covered a wide array of topics. I'll be going over them here.
Overall, opinions on the metagame tended positive, but with a solid lower tail that is rather dissatisfied and brings it down to an average a little under 6. Hopefully, some tiering actions and the (eventual) release of home will help with that, the next steps towards which we are taking now, but even if not there's a pretty satisfied grouping.
Gholdengo got the largest portion of pro-ban responses on the list, with only a handful opposing a suspect test and a clear majority wanting it banned; as such, it should be no suprise it's first up for tiering action
Dragonite and Garganacl, on the other hand, had a clear majority opposed to there being banned. As such, they won't be suspected immediately, but aren't excluded from consideration at a later date. 35-40% is a much less clear mandate, but it is clear that there is some level of dissatisfaction with them going on and that opinions on them might change once Gholdengo either goes or stays for the expected future.
Rusted Sword is another potential future tiering action. People were almost unanimous on not wanting it tested next, and it lacks a majority in favor of unbanning it in general, but this is also something we will keep an eye on. In this, like with Dragonite and Garganacl, we would be interested in hearing people's thoughts both here and on discord.
In terms of free responses, we got a few repeat offenders, but nothing like even the responses to even dragonite above. Great Tusk might earn a spot a future survey, but the likes of Roaring Moon, Arcanine, and Baxcalibur being broken seem to not be shared by most of the respondants.
wanted to post a team that i really like atm and even laddered to around 1500s before i decided to mess around with a hawlucha (which is why im in 14ks rn lol). anyway heres the team
Dragonite 192 Speed--> 8 Speed and rest in HP and Atk
Dragonite--> Diancite Gholdengo
its revolved around curse garg, which for some reason never sees any tiering action despite my (and some others') continuous pleas and efforts. anyway, the set is fairly simple, salt cure is an S tier move, curse, recover for longetivity, and eq for beating clodsire. now about it's partners:-
Iron moth: Sablenite Iron Moth is a good partner since it deals with 2 of Garg's so called issues: ghold and iron valiant (mostly pidge ones, and checks lop ones), while also providing pivoting to the team. It's also good vs stuff like corviknight (which is garbage but since some people disagree with it im mentioning that)
slowbro: premier answer to the espeeders, great tusk, barraskewda, lop valiant, etc. one of the best defensive mons rn.
clodsire: i dont build without this mon nowadays lol. its just so good, provides rocks, toxic, and is very good vs stuff like garganacl.
great tusk: this mon is almost mandatory on teams lol. the hazard removal mon on this team.
dragonite: p much slapped this mon, provides priority to the team and also acts as a secondary wincon. threats:</p><p>toxapex: toxapex can be quite annoying at times, but there are quite a few ways to pressure it on the team like fsight bro, clod, salt cure, dnite, tusk. not unbeatable at all. Usage tips:
-it is advisable to lead with clod and set up rocks.
-spam salt cure
-spam curse/ddance
sample submission or smth idk. anyway its a good thing ghold suspect is happening lol, but u did dirty with garg...
From the OM Mashups room... View attachment 473158
Yeah, I know where I'm going with this.
View attachment 473165
Dondozo @ Blastoisinite
Ability: Oblivious
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpA
Brave Nature
- Order Up
- Water Pulse
- Body Press
- Earthquake
Yup, it was brought to my attention that Order Up is considered to be a pulse move, and that gets boosted by Mega Launcher! This looks absolutely dumb, I know, but hear me out. This thing hard abuses the two pulse moves it gets (which is why I'm running Water Pulse instead of Wave Crash or smth) for a pretty decent mixed set, not to mention its absolutely huge bulk. Body Press abuses its 135 Defense stat and EQ is for coverage. Can't wait to see people use this on the ladder for no reason.
I Got A Side Arm (Slowbro-Galar) @ Cameruptite
Ability: Quick Draw
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
- Calm Mind
- Shell Side Arm
- Psychic
- Ice Beam
SPD SN Armstrong (Slowking-Galar) @ Sablenite
Ability: Own Tempo
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Slack Off
- Sludge Bomb
- Stored Power
Zarude-Dada @ Metagrossite
Ability: Leaf Guard
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Power Whip
- Close Combat
- Crunch
Your Welcome, And I Choose Mega Stone For Pokemon WHo Could Abuse The Easily. I Also Forgot This Was Ubers Based, Not OU. I WIll Update This Post With The Ubers Ones Soon.
As Promised
God (Arceus) @ Sablenite
Ability: Multitype
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Taunt
- Stealth Rock
- Foul Play
- Avalanche
We Ride At Dawn (Calyrex-Ice) @ Sablenite
Ability: As One (Glastrier)
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Glacial Lance
- Close Combat
- Taunt
We Ride At Dawn (Calyrex-Shadow) @ Pidgeotite
Ability: As One (Spectrier)
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Astral Barrage
- Psyshock
- Grass Knot
- Agility
Rassilon (Dialga) @ Sablenite
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Thunder Wave
- Heavy Slam
- Rest
This Is My Perfect Team For Now https://pokepast.es/83b52bad4578a27e
Red Orb volcarona is deceptivley bulky, with a massive 185 SpA Stat and sun boosted fiery dances, it's "Slightly" hard hitting
Blue Orb Inteleon Can Wash away teams with a rain boosted hydro pump, with ice beam, air slash, and shadow ball as coverage moves
Venusaurite Baxcalibur Is A Very Bulky Set Up Sweeper who can sweep with extreme predjudice
Sablenite Great Tusk Is A Bulky Backbone for the team, with knock off, bulk up, and body press
Latiasite Gholdengo Has very few weaknesses and can punch large holes in teams
Rusted Shield Scream Tail, As If It Needed More Bulk, A Better Typing, And An Ablity That Makes It Harder To Take Down first time in
Some thoughts on how Goldo affects the game. Gholdengo is byfar the best wallbreaker in the meta and seemlessly fits onto every teamstyle all while pretty much using the same 4 moves on every set. its presence and ease of use is the greatest counterbalance to stall with how well it serves both as a defensive and offensive countermeasure to its intended targets. it is tox immune and can 1v1 1v1 some of the most otherwise unbreakable mons in the meta like Garganacl, Tpex, Slowbro, Corviknight, and most defensive ground types.
The most broken aspect to Gholdengo however, is the fact that there are no consistent defensive switchins to it that can take hits and recover in its face outside of passive dedicated counters like spdef calm mind Blissey. Kingambit and Chi-Yu are some of the only natural counters, the former having a weakness prone type and the latter having poor bulk to start with, both of which can be worn down by hazards. Even mons that on paper should easily handle Goldo like Ting-Lu must sac themself to kill it, and with how well Goldo handles passive damage and passive walls it can often find opportunities to switch in to a lot of balance and stall teams at absurdly low health ranges and recover to full making the attempted sac meaningless.
As the No.1 Goldengo humper in teambuilding (used it on almost every team since launch lol) i enjoy using it and i appreciate it holding back insane Garga-Pex stall cores, but i could understand if some people wanted it gone. my current best team is a stall team featuring Goldo, i have realized that the combo of spdef ttarite Garga, mixed redorb hippo, and defensive blorb corv can safely switch in on most things that could scare Goldo out, outside of opposing Goldo, lopunite Tusk, and Kingambit. opposing Ambit and Goldo need aggressive play to handle but cannot break thru the team on their own
heres da team, feel free to use and critique at ones liesure. sadly i got yeeted out the tourn via timing technicality and couldnt fully test it, but other good players have acknowledged its competence at least. if anyone wanna play a set for fun hmu, same name on showdown
no u :p (Ditto) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Imposter
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 30 Atk
- Transform
Works great as a anti espeed measure in tandem with "Corviknight used U-Turn" and can also help ease the burden vs passive status spamming walls. it is this teams primary revenge killer and also bears a lot of the burden against opposing Goldengo, after all if you cant beat them, just steal their stats and move first. risky play is required but generally the cost of losing your own goldo check is offset by them subsequently losing theirs
Emo Skarmory (Corviknight) @ Blue Orb
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Hurricane
- Defog
- U-turn
- Roost
Great safe lead which makes up for its lack of power with a reliable high bp stab with a nasty 30% confusion chance
Quagonius (Clodsire) @ Latiosite
Ability: Water Absorb
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 12 HP / 244 Def / 252 SpD
Impish Nature
- Spikes
- Earthquake
- Toxic
- Recover
The shakiest spot on the team, but also a much needed counter to lopunite Tusk. helps vs gyaradosite mirrors and non sablenite walls including most Garganacls
Gloria the Groudon (Hippowdon) (M) @ Red Orb
Ability: Sand Stream
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 68 Def / 188 SpD
Impish Nature
- Curse
- Earthquake
- Fire Fang
- Slack Off
Best answer on this team vs the odd magnet pull magnezone, 1 time check to chipped Goldo, and can curse in the face of so much holy f
Where the Hos At (Gholdengo) @ Latiasite
Ability: Good as Gold
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 44 SpA / 212 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Shadow Ball
- Make It Rain
- Recover
Goldos evs are insanely adaptable, it can pretty much choose to live any 1 se hit outside of lopunite cc or stab fire blast. it can viably run diancite, lucarionite, lati-ite, cameruptite, audinite and probably more. it serves this teams as this teams anti stall measure and its typing in conjunction with the wisp/wave immune hippo serves as this teams anti status measure
Sgt Pepper (Garganacl) @ Tyranitarite
Ability: Purifying Salt
Tera Type: Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Salt Cure
- Body Press
- Iron Defense
- Recover
So specially bulky in sand it shrugs off non stab se hits like nothing, imo the greatest generic nuetral special wall in the meta vs the motly lot of assorted special attackers. *Warning* if Goldo is banned Garga will likely need to be banned too. even with Goldos presence it easily switches in and sits on so much, even lopunite Tusk does nothing if Garga gets up a iron defense. the suspect test of Gholdengo will be the decision between which is the greater nuisance, Goldo or unhindered stall with its star Garganacl
WOOOO CHESNAUGHT IS HERE, kinda strange that the kalos starters are being released from worst to best(Fight me nerds). Anyway, here's my preferred set for this mon.
Chesnaught @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Bulletproof
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 112 Atk / 144 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Iron Head
- Body Press
- Synthesis
- Wood Hammer/Seed Bomb
The set basically speaks for itself. rusted shield gives a ton of resistances, and basically turns it into a better ferrothorn with Dauntless Shield(What's an iron barbs) and has reliable STABs in Wood Hammer/Seed Bomb and iron head(which might become behemoth bash idk how these work). Body Press is its best coverage move, especially with DShield active. Synthesis is the recovery ferrothorn could only dream of(or maybe it has it and just prefers leech seed idk) in a metagame with very little reason to run leftovers. Tera Water is really the most effective type for it, since fire resist and few weaknesses after tera, because this thing really wants its typing to be defensive.
Alternatively, you could use this set, but it probably wouldn't work as well.
Chesnaught @ Rusted Shield/Aggronite
Ability: Bulletproof
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 112 Def / 144 SpD
Bold Nature
- Iron Head/Wood Hammer/Iron Defense
- Body Press
- Leech Seed
- Spiky Shield
Basically the typical Ferrothorn set. Shield is good for the reasons above, while Aggronite capitalizes on the common resistances of grass types while also being able to lessen its weaknesses with filter. 88/172/95 is not bulk to mess with, and 137 atk stat means those wood hammers will not be shaken off. Iron head is for the Shield set, and shouldn't be used with Aggronite. Again, body press isn't STAB boosted, but iron defense with a def stat of 172 will make it very powerful without STAB. Leech Seed+Spiky Shield is a tried and true strategy for chip damage, and the longevity makes it able to compete with mortal spin/toxic + Spiky Shield.Obviously this loses the additional benefit of escaping a bad matchup with tera, but it might find a niche somewhere.
Overall, a lot of things benefit it this gen, might actually be worth considering for a defensive role, as long as you can beat Corv.
ghold's sets include diancite, latiasite and pidgeotite, and u can't basically cover for them all. it's become a building headache. red orb jugulis for diancite and latiasite? well too bad! have fun getting focus blasted (not to mention dia has started to run fblast too). clodsire walls? haha, I'm latiasite defensive! have fun acting as a setup fodder.
although altarianite sets are definitely amazing, pinsirite is just...stupid. u just click ddance, and then ur opponent sable bro prays it doesn't get 2hkod (too bad, there were rocks!) Arc gets folded too after rocks and/or minimal chip. 
my campaign is still on: this mon is the stupidest of them all. realistically the only viable way to beat a garg is a clodsire, salt cure is just insanely annoying, and if it gets idef up have fun. 
also very annoying, the fact that it can get past "answers" like slowbro and skeledirge is stupid. lopunnite sets 2hko manec bro with headlong, and dirge can't switch-in if rocks are up. pins sets can just para past everything. honestly it just feels like u've to cope with lati ghold+manec bro. 
quite a hot take on this one. rmoon's sets include aero/meta/pins, and it's quite problematic too. for example, manecbro is good into pins variants, but folds to aero. although not as stupid as everything above, it's a threat that needs looking into. 
hazard stack is insane cuz our only realistically good control mon is tusk. idm clod too much but unbounceable toxic definitely is annoying, and its good bulk helps it in progressmaking a ton. our steels include gholdengo and magnezone, and none of them are too fond of running into clod. 
