Middle Cup ORAS

[Stocke]

Will write more on this but:
Staravia
Lampent
Quilava
Pupitar

Pupitar might have potential since it has Dragon Dance and Rock/Ground is generally a good offensive typing. It would face stiff competition from other Dragon Dancers and probably be outclassed by them because of how slow it is at base, though.

As for the others, I unfortunately don't see much reason to use them over others in the tier. Staravia maybe as a Defogger since there aren't many hazard removers here, but otherwise...

 

[Cheryl.]

Staravia @ Life Orb / Silk Scarf
Ability: Reckless
EVs: 216 Atk / 40 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive / Naughty Nature
- Double-Edge
- Brave Bird
- Hidden Power Water
- Quick Attack / Final Gambit

You guys are talking about Staravia all wrong. It's piss-poor defenses make a bulky Defog set a bad idea, and this set is what I think Staravia should be used for. With Reckless and Double-Edge and Brave Bird as good STAB moves, Staravia makes for a powerful wallbreaker, 2HKOing almost every wall in the tier with a Life Orb equipped (except physically defensive Dusclops) The reason behind the 40 SpA EVs and HP Water on the set is to lure in and 3HKO one of Staravia's biggest counters, Rhydon. (It only 3HKOs with LO though) It also has Quick Attack as a useful move to revenge kill weakened threats, and it also kills weakened Adamant Fletchinder if you use a Naive Nature. Final Gambit doesn't work as well as you need to have a lot of health to kill something with it (and Staravia's poor bulk and getting worn down easily doesn't help), but it's definitely an option for it. Overall, using Staravia as a Defogger just isn't a very good idea, and this Staravia should be used instead. It also works great in BirdSpam cores with Fletchinder as they can weaken their own checks and counters, such as weakening Rhydon with HP Water, so one or the other can sweep much easier. Overall, Staravia is a pretty cool wallbreaker, and I hope you all try it out!

Calcs

40 SpA Life Orb Staravia Hidden Power Water vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Rhydon: 88-104 (41.5 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

216 Atk Life Orb Reckless Staravia Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Porygon2: 103-122 (53.6 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

216 Atk Life Orb Reckless Staravia Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dusclops: 66-78 (44.8 - 53%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

216 Atk Life Orb Reckless Staravia Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Prinplup: 99-117 (57.8 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

216 Atk Life Orb Reckless Staravia Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sliggoo: 175-207 (100 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

And that's just some of the walls that Staravia can break through!

 

[Cheryl.]

Sorry for double-posting, but I have finished the Viability Ranking I was making back on the last page! So here's my own VR, the reasoning for each mon's placement is back on the last page.

S Rank:

Doublade

Porygon2

A Rank:

A+ Rank

Croconaw

Electabuzz

Fletchinder

Fraxure

Golbat

Gurdurr

Monferno

Rhydon

Roselia

Sliggoo

A Rank

Dusclops

Frogadier

Gothorita

Haunter

Krokorok

Magmar

Piloswine

Prinplup

Togetic

Zweilous

A- Rank

Duosion

Gabite

Grovyle

Marshtomp

Metang

Quilladin


B Rank:

B+ Rank

Clefairy

Dragonair

Lampent

Lombre

Staravia

Vibrava

B Rank

Eelektrik

Gloom

Klang

Lairon

Pikachu

Seadra

Sealeo

Vigoroth

B- Rank

Braixen

Grotle

Ivysaur

Marill

Servine

Shelgon

Skiploom

Swadloon

Weepinbell

Whirlipede

C Rank:

C+ Rank

Charmeleon

Herdier

Kirlia

Luxio

Nidorino

Nuzleaf

Machoke

Pidgeotto

Pignite

Vanillish

C Rank

Dewott

Graveler

Loudred

Palpitoad

C- Rank

Floette

Nidorina

Poliwhirl

Quilava

Wartortle

D Rank:

Bayleef

Boldore

Flaaffy

Jigglypuff

Pupitar

Tranquill


This will be a great help to newer players to decide what's good or what's not, and it's a great discussion place to understand this metagame! I hope you like it, and leave any nominations or comments down below! ;)

 

[Take Azelfie]

Where is Graveler? Like in PU Graveler plays the same exact way as Golem it can Rock Blast both Swadloon and Whirlpede through there sashes, has Sturdy meaning it can always get Stealth Rock up, Rock-typing pressures Deffogers, can use Explosion to block Wartortle and Deffogers. Heck it can even use W.P. + RP to turn into a sweeper or early game breaker. Definately B imo, should also do an E rank just so we can see and remember mons that we might not remember.

 

[Cheryl.]

I don't know what Graveler does that Rhydon doesn't. Rhydon has the bulk to get Stealth Rock consistently almost every match, it just misses out on Explosion and Sturdy, I'll still add Graveler, but I don't think he's anywhere near B rank, C rank at best imo.

 

[Maysoon]

E Rank is just the cocoons and chrysalises and Jigglypuff (jigglypuff is d mb)

 

[Stocke]

A+ Rank

Dusclops

A meta where Dusclops is actually good? Now this I'll have to see.

nah I'm kidding, thanks for the viability rankings though, I haven't actually had a chance to play Middle Cup yet so hopefully this'll be helpful to me

 

[Mazz]

I remember being a massive proponent of MC back in BW. I understand that over a generation and a half, a lot of things will have changed, but I have a couple of things to note:

Lampent is going to be really good. It's a full stop to Combusken. One of my brightest memories of BWMC was how everyone lost their marbles over Combusken until we clued in that Lampent is the answer. The new BP rules really hinder it too which doesn't say much. Lampent's not as offensively great as Haunter, sure, but it's a more defensively reliable Ghost-type (not Dusclops-esque, but for a more offensive team, it's very welcome).

Don't sleep on Klang. Shift Gear was a menace in BW, and I don't see that changing. It's got stiff competition in the form of Doublade, but the speed boost is very handy, especially in the late game. Why resort to a 40BP move to outpace things when you can simply outspeed them?

I'm surprised Dusclops is considered as good as it is, even despite the buffs to Knock Off. Regardless of Eviolite being banned, Dusclops does not appreciate having Leftovers removed. Is there a lack of users, or is Knock Off not being paid any attention to?

On that note, why in the blue hell is Machoke D-Rank? No Guard Dynamic Punch? Knock Off? It's got a hair more special defence and speed at the cost of a hair's worth of attack, HP, and defense. In terms of Guts, yes it's handily outclassed, but it has such a diverse movepool. The Elemental Punches, Heavy Slam (for the Faries), like Machoke has it all. Am I missing something?

 

[Cheryl.]

Ok so I have decided, thanks to a conversation with Mazz, to move up Machoke to C. He will most likely move up higher, as he does have some notable advantages over Gurdurr, such as No Guard DynamicPunch, and the added speed and movepool choices such as the elemental punches and Heavy Slam. I also added Graveler to C- and I will add an E rank in the next update to this VR. Keep up the good work guys!

Possible points of discussion for the VR:

Krokorok from A- to A

Duosion from B+ to B

Lampent from B to B+

Zweilous from A to A-

Croconaw from A to A+

 

[Maysoon]

While Dusclops may not like Knock Off at all what it does provide is great bulk and support. I think that Dusclops would appreciate Colbur more w/ Pain Split. Once Colbur is knocked off Knock Off only has 65 BP and chances are if Dusclops is in on a Knock Off user it will just Will-O-Wisp meaning that only a select few mons can switch in, Gurdurr and Machoke are probably the better switch ins as Lampent doesn't want to risk getting hurt too much by w/e Ghost move Dusclops may be running. Combusken can also switch in but doesn't get a Guts boost and can really only hit Dusclops with Fire Blast which it may not want to waste PP on especially if the enemy is Pressure over Frisk.

 

[Samoyed]

I completely agree with the Lampent rise. Whilst it doesn't exactly carry a strong move against it, its immunity to its attacks makes it precious. On Combusken's almost guaranteed Protect or switch, it gets a free Trick Room! It also is nice to stop Porygon's 3Attack and Fire Blast is vital against Doublade. Easily B+ or higher.

Lampent @ Life Orb
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
IVs: 0 Spe
Quiet Nature
- Trick Room
- Fire Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Energy Ball

Also, could we get the title changes (VRs on Page 3) or the Vr's in the main post pls?

 

[Cheryl.]

I wouldn't drop Combusken just because a mon can counter it. Busken can easily run Rock Slide or HP Rock to lure in Lampent and severely hurt it, and once Lampent is gone, Combusken can sort of just run house on the opposing team thanks to it's immense power and Speed Boost. That immense power and Speed Boost is basically what got it to S in the first place, and I wouldn't drop it just because a certain mon can check it.

252 SpA Life Orb Combusken Hidden Power Rock vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Lampent: 192-229 (59.2 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Combusken Hidden Power Rock vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Lampent: 213-252 (65.7 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Combusken Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Lampent: 138-164 (82.6 - 98.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Mazz]

If anyone's interested, I'm currently working on Speed Tiers for Middle Cup. However, as it stands, it's extremely elementary. I don't have enough data to account for intricate sets (like if something runs 164 Speed EVs, I'm currently unaware of it). If you guys could post sets and go into some detail about them it would help me out, as well as everyone else by giving them some teambuilding ideas.

 

[Wooly Ampharosite]

I agree on Krokorok rising to A rank. Besides being a reliable Stealth Rocker, Krokorok has niche in its ability, Moxie, which lets it rack up attack points and makes it a good sweeper and cleaner. It has good typing, with two immunities, and decent offensive stats, which gets the job done. Krokorok has access to a great movepool with STAB boosted Earthquake and Knock Off, along with coverage moves, such as Iron Tail, Stone Edge, and the Elemental Fangs. With a Choice Scarf, Krokorok outspeeds Combusken at +1 and Fraxure with one Dragon Dance and beats many threats in the metagame.

Krokorok works well with many pokemon, such as Roselia who counters Water and Grass types and can set up a Spike stack. Krokorok and Roselia complement each other and take down each other's threats. Suicide Leads, such as Monferno and Whirlipede are also good as they can set up hazards and weaken the opposing pokemon so that Krokorok can easily beat them.

Calcs:
252 Atk Krokorok Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Doublade: 168-200 (52.1 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Krokorok Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Doublade: 254-300 (78.8 - 93.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
252 Atk Krokorok Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Combusken: 242-288 (92.7 - 110.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Krokorok Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Dusclops: 186-222 (65.4 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Threw]

I don't like Zweilous moving to A-. Hustle is a really risky ability, but boy does it pay off. Unfortunately it doesn't have access to Knock Off, but it has a really nice physical movepool including the strongest Outrage in the meta (shoutout Mazz) and even some support moves like Taunt and T-Wave. Even though it can get revenge killed by a lot of stuff bc its Speed tier is pretty meh and it has subpar defensive typing, I think it deserves to stay in A.

Ok time to reveal the real reason I posted: I'm filing a formal complaint that Merlouvynis was not included in the making of this metagame. especially disappointed in you BB, since you know he talks about it so much ;-;

 

[Mazz]

BrandonBeast and I did a handful of test matches and we've reached the same conclusion: Magneton is extremely powerful, to the point where switching in on it is nigh impossible. The Specs set absolutely demolishes stall, and the scarf set is a nightmare for offence. It can be revenge killed because of its speed tier, and Combusken can beat non-scarf variants, but Volt-Switch/Thunderbolt, Flash Cannon, and HP Grass severely reduce what can and cannot switch in on it would taking a mouthful of hurt. As of right now, I reckon Porygon2 and opposing Magneton are really all that can switch in on it.

EDIT: Electabuzz can switch in on Magneton, but probably only once. Considering Stealth Rock and possible Life Orb recoil, it doesn't have the bulk to do it repeatedly.

 

[Cheryl.]

So yeah, as Mazz said, Magneton has very, very few switchins, and even then it's still pretty easy to just use a move with it and watch the damage counter go down. It also still hits hard with Scarf to threaten offense, and Leftovers lets it act as a good offensive pivot that can stay around longer in the match. I will definitely move it up from A- in the next VR update as it's just stupidly brainless and fun to use, and threatens so many teams that me and mazz think it's worthy of a ban, due to it's lack of switchins and the utility it can add to a team by checking Water and Flying types.

unfixable , if you could, could you bring up some discussion about Magneton or maybe suspect it? It could help us understand how Magneton affects the metagame with it's power, and hopefully if it potentially gets banned, maybe the meta can get a bit better overall.

EDIT: Also if you have support to beat Marshtomp, HP ground is an option over HP Grass to snipe opposing Magneton switchins.

 

[skies]

lol magneton is just plain dumb i'm dtbi

also fsr i unfollowed this thread and didn't see anything pls tag me next time BrandonBeast

 

[Cheryl.]

Ok new update time!

Removed Magneton as it's banned now (Oh wait it's not banned)

Rises:

Krokorok to A

Lampent to B+

Machoke to C+

Herdier to C+ (Actually sort of threatening with a Choice Band set, especially in Sand with Sand Rush)

Drops:

Wartortle to C- (Defog Prinplup basically outclasses it, Wartortle's only niche is on hazard stack teams that don't want their hazards removed by their Defog user)
Quilava to D (No niche really)
Seadra to B (85 Speed is still really good, but no Swift Swim makes it face a lot of competition over other sweepers)

Added E Rank

Discussion points:

Fraxure to S ( There's literally almost nothing stopping this thing from ruining your team except priority, Fairies if no PJab, and Doublade really)
Fletchinder to S (The SR weakness may hurt it, but the utility it provides to a team by revenging a whole bunch of threats while still being able to sweep with SD or cripple threats with WoW and the splashability of hazard removers make this weakness a bit less noticeable)
Clefairy to B (Has less bulk than Togetic, meaning it can come in on less hits, but still has Calm Mind and Stealth Rock, and can pass bigger Wishes, but the loss of bulk can really hurt it)
Gothorita to A ( Still have to test it out more, but Shadow Tag is a really good ability)
Dusclops to A (Is the bulkiest mon in the tier, yeah, but it hates Knock Off and is sort of passive in general, sometimes even with the offensive set)

 

[skies]

wait wait, i think you misunderstood, i'm not quickbanning it, i'm saying i'd support a ban. i'd like at least 24 hours to hear both sides of the argument. :0

 

[Mazz]

wait wait, i think you misunderstood, i'm not quickbanning it, i'm saying i'd support a ban. i'd like at least 24 hours to hear both sides of the argument. :0

I'd be privy to a quickban. My post had the entirety of the other side of the "ban Magneton" argument. It can be revenge killed and Porygon2 can sort of deal with it. I get why you'd want some form of a counter-argument but there really isn't one. Anything short of Air Balloon defensive Electabuzz won't be stopping it any time soon. Keep in mind that we made these observations using a Magnet Pull Magneton - Analytic hits significantly harder if you fail to KO it or if you switch out. It's bonkers how powerful it is, and probably deserves a quickban.

Relevant calculations of whatever should stand a chance against Magneton (but doesn't):
note: all calculations assume Stealth Rocks on both sides
252 SpA Choice Specs Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Gurdurr: 126-148 (65.6 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Machoke: 109-129 (58.2 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Porygon2: 91-108 (47.3 - 56.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Assault Vest Dusclops: 51-60 (34.6 - 40.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Duosion: 109-129 (63.3 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So if I'm reading those right, my best bet is something like an Assault Vest Dusclops, or a 252 HP / 252 SpDef Porygon2 to switch in on Specs Magneton (while not accounting that Analytic will make each of those hit 30% harder). Machoke and Gurdurr are able to come in after something's taken the proverbial 'L', but there's better options on the market (read: faster EQ users). I've already pointed out that Scarf Magneton (and by association Leftovers / Air Balloon) is the tamer beast but when you've got the entire metagame folding to a different set, it's very hard to provide a counter argument. Magneton is worthy of a QB.

 

[Maysoon]

If we quickban Magneton we need to look at P2, it's just as hard to switch into except it can run Physical and Special as well as being harder to revenge kill. Not only that it can just be a tank and provide a stupid amount of utility. With magneton gone that's one less mon that could've somewhat tanked P2's hits gone. The one thing getting rid of it does is making P2 + Magneton not a thing since Magneton just gets rid of Steel-types that wall P2 and P2 cleans.

 

[The Immortal]

The term quickban means either 1) it wasn't put on the initial banlist but shortly after the meta began, it was realized that it should have been. Or 2) the Pokemon was just released in-game and it needs to be banned immediately.

This metagame is not new and Magneton is not a new addition. Stop using the word quickban.

 

[skies]

The term quickban means either 1) it wasn't put on the initial banlist but shortly after the meta began, it was realized that it should have been. Or 2) the Pokemon was just released in-game and it needs to be banned immediately.

This metagame is not new and Magneton is not a new addition. Stop using the word quickban.

the "definition" doesn't matter, it's mostly just banning it quickly. would you prefer we use quick ban? or ban it quickly? it doesn't change the issue at hand at all. there's no need to worry about semantics.

anyways magneton is banned since Mazz summed it up well, and there's really nothing else to argue against it + 24 hours!

 

[The Immortal]

the "definition" doesn't matter, it's mostly just banning it quickly. would you prefer we use quick ban? or ban it quickly? it doesn't change the issue at hand at all. there's no need to worry about semantics.

anyways magneton is banned since Mazz summed it up well, and there's really nothing else to argue against it + 24 hours!

just say "ban",,,

If we ban Magneton we need to look at P2, it's just as hard to switch into except it can run Physical and Special as well as being harder to revenge kill. Not only that it can just be a tank and provide a stupid amount of utility. With magneton gone that's one less mon that could've somewhat tanked P2's hits gone. The one thing getting rid of it does is making P2 + Magneton not a thing since Magneton just gets rid of Steel-types that wall P2 and P2 cleans.