Lower Tiers LC Viability Rankings 2.0

Holiday

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I think Magby is a better support, with it's EV's in it's defensive sides:


#Bars (Magby) (M) @ Eviolite
Ability: Flame Body
Level: 5
EVs: 64 HP / 156 Atk / 116 SpA / 172 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Flamethrower
- Psychic
- Thunder Punch

Flame Body is very clutch if used properly, it may not be the best wall, but it's not walling no one, it's just on the team to force/ try to force a switch and if it's a special attacker it can burn it with W-o-W and wear it down. this Magby is a good team pivot (kinda? I wouldn't consider it a pivot, but he does something like that so...) and thanks to the eviolite, it can live 2-4 hits from attacks that are neutral.

236+ Atk Mienfoo Drain Punch vs. 64 HP / 0- Def Eviolite Magby: 12-15 (57.1 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
76+ Atk Vullaby Brave Bird vs. 64 HP / 0- Def Eviolite Magby: 15-18 (71.4 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 SpA Abra Psychic vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Magby: 12-15 (57.1 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
200 SpA Gastly Shadow Ball vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Magby: 9-12 (42.8 - 57.1%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO

I use him. I like the results and the great synergy with the rest of my team. and he knows how to spit Fire #Bars.
There's literally no reason to use defensive Magby when it's completely and utterly outclassed by both defensive Ponyta and Larvesta. Magby's niche is its Belly Drum set, and while I do disagree with Levi about the viability of the LO set, that's neither here nor there. You're running a -Def nature on something that is supposed to be a wall, and even with an Eviolite it is still dying to 2 hits to most of the Pokemon you've listed calcs for.

236+ Atk Mienfoo High Jump Kick vs. 64 HP / 0- Def Eviolite Magby: 21-25 (100 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO

The only Mienfoo set that I could see running max attack Adamant would be Choice Scarf, and you cleanly die to that. You're especially cucked if it's Reckless as well.


156 Atk Vullaby Brave Bird vs. 64 HP / 0- Def Eviolite Magby: 15-18 (71.4 - 85.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

If Magby comes in on Stealth Rock or takes any prior damage (and being a defensive pivot as you claim I imagine it would) The proper Vullaby set (idk wtf 76+ is lol) OHKOs it more than half the time. Once again, Scarf Vullaby pushes it in as well.

240 SpA Abra Psychic vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Magby: 12-15 (57.1 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Sash Abra lives a hit from Magby due to Sash and cleanly 2HKOs.

240 SpA Life Orb Abra Psychic vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Magby: 16-19 (76.1 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Life Orb Abra OHKOs after Rocks, so any prior damage your Magby has taken leads to a kill.

200 SpA Life Orb Gastly Sludge Bomb vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Magby: 13-17 (61.9 - 80.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Same story. Prior damage or Rocks, and Gastly kills Magby. Only risk here is a speed tie.


If you are going to use a defensive fire type, I would recommend Ponyta.

Ponyta @ Eviolite
Level: 5
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 76 Atk / 156 Def / 76 SpD / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Morning Sun
- Will-O-Wisp
- Flame Charge / Wild Charge / Hypnosis / Toxic

Flame Charge lets you beat Diglett if used before it traps you, Wild Charge hits Fire resists like Archen, Hypnosis obvi sleeps stuff, and Toxic nails Chinchou who otherwise walls this set


With that out the way, I have a nomination:

Staryu to A

As it stands, I do think that Staryu is the best Rapid Spinner in Little Cup. Scald is Scald, it has a great Speed tier, typing, and ability to make use of its defensive capabilities. Offensively, Staryu is no slouch either. With a movepool larger than most, Staryu can outspeed a majority of the in boosted tier and slam them with powerful LO Hydro Pumps, with any two moves of Psychic, Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, and HP Fire filling up its coverage. Personally, I am a fan of Psychic + Ice Beam, but really use what your team needs in order to get past whatever Ghost attempts to spinblock you. With the combination of defensive and offensive capabilities as well as the ability to beat every Ghost type in the tier (bar maybe like Floon if unburden activates and Frillish if no TBolt) I definitely believe that Staryu should move up.
 

Camden

Hey, it's me!
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I made a slight change to the OP to reflect our current attitude towards post quality:

"Welcome to the LC viability ranking project. In this project, we will "tier" every Pokemon based on usefulness. An initial tier list has already been made; if you think something should be moved up or down, post in this thread with your reasoning on why, and the change may be enacted, but please make sure you have a proper understanding of the current metagame before doing so. Bad/basic posts will be deleted, and repeated offenses may be punished with an infraction."

With that in mind, if you're unsure about a particular placing, feel free to ask about it.
 
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Berks

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Even though it pains me to make a post in this thread based on my decidedly poor history in it, I see a discrepancy that cannot be permitted to exist any longer. Some considerable time playtesting, about twenty more minutes of theorizing just this past twenty minutes, and an evaluation of the current placement of Pokemon on the viability rankings (which in itself is based on Corporal Levi's very well thought out post above) has led me to make the following nomination:

Exeggcute: Unranked --> C+

I'd like to work off of the following premises to make this nomination:
  • I am using an offensive Harvest Oran Berry Exeggcute set I believe to be much more viable than the current analysis set. The moveset consists of Substitute / Sleep Powder / Giga Drain / Psychic; the EV spread is 36 Def / 196 SpA / 76 SpD / 196 Spe with a Modest Nature, granting a defensive spread of 22 / 15 / 12 with 16 Special Attack and 13 Speed. This spread is consistently more effective than the given analysis set due to its greater Speed and increased ability to threaten the foe's Pokemon.
  • I intend to draw heavily off of the perception of the viability rankings that has to do with specific niches, as did Levi in his earlier post. The reasoning behind this nomination will follow a similar outline as did his nominations in said post.
  • I have playtested Exeggcute on exactly one team. However, the team I used was not built around Exeggcute. Rather, it was actually the final Pokemon to join the team, as it fit a niche I needed filled. Admittedly, this may flaw my judgement; despite having playtested the team extensively, it is a relatively small sample size. As such, my point of view in regards to Pokemon Exeggcute pairs well with may be overly positive. Feel free to address this specifically in any rebuttal.
  • It is my opinion that Speed is one of the most important factors in the competitive viability of any Pokemon in any metagame; however, I believe this effect is amplified in Little Cup due in particular to the natural offensive tendencies of the tier.
Unfortunately, as I've found from other posts I've made in this thread, the only way for me to accurately describe my thoughts and intents behind this nomination warrant an intensely Shrug-esque essay post, thesis statement and all. I would ask only that you not immediately discount this nomination based on its extremity, and instead refute it based on flaws in the arguments I will be presenting. With that out of the way, here is the reasoning behind what I admit is a massive nomination.

Claim #1: Passive longevity is a valuable asset in Little Cup, and Exeggcute has a form of it.

The trend is fairly obvious: passive HP recovery is an incredible asset in Little Cup. This can be seen in the competitive viability of Pokemon that use Regenerator, such as Mienfoo and Foongus, and in the efficacy of Berry Juice. Access to Harvest in conjunction with Oran Berry grants Exeggcute a sort of in-between of these two forms of recovery, in that it can consistently restore around half its HP (akin to Regenerator) without switching out (as with Berry Juice). Properly utilizing Substitute can ease the probability associated with Harvest; this has the added benefit of helping Exeggcute use Substitute more frequently. In short, Exeggcute's ability to passively regenerate HP is a huge part of its competitive niche.

Claim #2: Exeggcute has access to something exactly one other Pokemon has: nearly unlimited Substitutes.

The uniqueness of Exeggcute's recovery situation grants it the unparalleled ability to consistently use the move Substitute. This is closely mirrored by Drifloon, which can utilize Recycle to obtain the HP necessary to repeatedly create Substitutes. This turns Drifloon and Exeggcute into nightmares for slower Pokemon; in this case, however, Exeggcute does not outspeed the entire metagame. Instead of stalling out opposing Pokemon with Will-O-Wisp damage like Drifloon, Exeggcute instead makes use of Sleep Powder to continually create free turns; this grants the Exeggcute user more opportunities to create Substitutes and execute prediction-based switches, both of which transfer momentum to the Exeggcute user. Essentially, Exeggcute can use its ability to consistently create Substitutes to nearly instantly transfer momentum against any Pokemon below 13 Speed, which is a lot of Pokemon!


Claim #3: Exeggcute puts unique pressure on many traditional checks to Foongus.

It must go without saying that the Pokemon that most directly competes with Exeggcute's niche is Foongus, a defensive Grass-type with access to passive recovery and a sleep-inducing powder-based status move. If we set aside Vullaby, which is essentially the end-all, be-all Grass-type check, we are left with two sets of checks to these Pokemon: Grass-type Pokemon, as they are immune to powder-based moves, and Pokemon with advantageous typing, such as Gothita and Ponyta. Let's look at the pressure Exeggcute exhibits on these sets of Pokemon. The shortlist of prominent Grass-type Pokemon in Little Cup includes Foongus, Snivy, Ferroseed, and Cottonee. Foongus' Poison STAB helps it threaten Snivy and Cottonee moreso than it does other Foongus and Ferroseed. Exeggcute, on the other hand, does 70% to Foongus with Psychic, and still holds its own against Snivy and Cottonee simply by virtue of its powerful STAB Psychic. In this regard, you could argue that either of the two have an edge based on the Hidden Power Foongus chooses to run, so we'll call that fairly even. The main place Exeggcute shines is against Pokemon not immune to Sleep Powder. Creating a Substitute against a foe's Timburr as he switches to Ponyta eases prediction and is a 100% safe move for the Exeggcute user; a Foongus in the same situation must identify which of the two Pokemon he needs to put to sleep and predict the switch (or not) accordingly, and also holds the possibility of being Knocked Off in the process. In this regard, Exeggcute's Substitutes and advantageous Speed tier let it shine above Foongus. It is also neat to add that Exeggcute is nearly trap-proof, in that Gothita cannot ever KO through Oran Berry and Giga Drain, and Diglett gets beat out by Substitute mindgames. In these regards, Exeggcute shines over Foongus despite its overall lower bulk.


Conclusion: Exeggcute has a unique, viable niche equivalent in efficacy to other C+ Pokemon

C+ is home to Pokemon like Numel which take advantage of very specific threats in the metagame. In Numel's case, these Pokemon include Ferroseed, Ponyta, and a few other prominent threats. For Exeggcute, this is any Pokemon not immune to sleep at 13 Speed or below, which is another list of prominent threats. Exeggcute fits in well with bulky, yet passive Pokemon such as Koffing and Lileep, and also finds a home among Pokemon that tend to live forever, such as Trubbish and Frillish. It therefore stands to reason that C+ is a suitable place to rank Exeggcute; however, I would like to make it known that I personally believe Exeggcute is B- material. After consulting with other users, however, that is a bit too extreme—for now, C+ will do.


As an aside, since both Viability Rankings and Sample Teams are meant to be indicative of the state of a metagame, let's take a look at the Pokemon on various ORAS Sample Teams Exeggcute takes advantage of:

Dual Scarf Offense:

Exeggcute switches into Tirtouga, Subs on Scarf Drilbur locked into anything but Poison Jab, and threatens Foongus.

How To: Aipom:

Exeggcute switches into Magnemite from full, Subs on Snubbull, and gets around Diglett via Substitute-Sucker Punch mindgames.

Bulky Offense:

Exeggcute creates momentum against Spritzee, Porygon, and Timburr; it also threatens Foongus. Interestingly, Stunky cannot actually OHKO with 40 BP Pursuit or Fire Blast, so Exeggcute has a good chance of getting a Substitute up to eat a Pursuit, allowing it to possibly get out alive!


And so on and so forth. IF pressed, I could provide a shortlist of the Pokemon Exeggcute matches up well with, along with more detailed analysis of its play against any given team. I really like what I've seen from and done with Exeggcute, and honestly it's a bit of a tragedy it's been unranked for so long. While this may be attributed to a subpar standard set, it is nonetheless time to fully recognize Exeggcute's potential by adding it to our Viability Rankings. C+ is a large jump, sure, but I truly think Exeggcute deserves it!
 

Fiend

someguy
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Yeah uh berks I love your post but i feel that some portions of it rely on odd logic:

You point out that Eggy holds its own versus Cottonee and Snivy, though Cottonee loves to carry Knock Off which ruins your set and Snivy loves to pack HP Fire / Ice / Flying which all end Eggy at +2. If you're simply comparing these as checks to Foongus, I don't know why you brought them up other than that they hurt Eggy more than/as much as they hurt Foongus. Eggy also hits each of them much less effectively which leaves me confused as to what your idea was with addressing these two in particular. On the other hand, Ferroseed loves Knock Off and can at least live long enough to ruin your day with Eggy though this allows things like Omanyte to muscles past Ferroseed so there is a bit more of a merit. I need some clarification on what you mean here, because as I read it now all I'm getting is it sorta beats what Foongus beats + really badly beats Foongus.

Just glancing at the bottom of your post I feel that you didn't look at the sample teams and notice that they are infact outdated (my bad entirely, but I'm slowly working on adding them to account for meta trends). And notably if you're abusing Eggy and switching it on Tirtouga then it dies to +2 Stone edge. And it threatens Foongus but doesn't switch in meaning that your momentum is based on already having some due to U-turn or the complete loss of momentum/a mon in a sac or otherwise KO. You're also saying it switches into Mag from full but that doesn't due you very good if the other team has one of many Knock Off users or even just U-turn pokemon simply because Volt Switch exists, and coupled with hazards the next time you try to use Eggy to switch into Magnemite, that Flash Cannon may KO or you maintain a negative momentum position in the battle. Of course, I'm not saying it isn't at least situationally beneficial vs those match ups, which are far more popular now than Levi's balance team where the fastest pokemon is an Archen and the Volt Switch is completely spammable against ie momentum isn't too crucial as a lot of things already generate it vs the balance team. I'm also noticing that what Eggy really does its work against are slower things or Ground-types; I'd love to see your set as otherwise I'm just assuming you're hitting 11 speed and max SpA with odd HP and SpD missed the set; still: it is a god awful water check as Corphish / SS Oma / Hazards Oma (Knock Off and your eggy is useless) / Tirtouga / Carvanha / may as well toss in Shellder / Ice beam Staryu really just barely have to mind Eggy. The only things that lose to Eggy are Non Ice Beam Staryu and Chinchou, which both can still lose with Ice Beam I'm sure. It has a hell of a lot of competition as a Grass-type solely due to how many Water-types (the things that moved Foongus from A- to A) just outmaneuver or outright beat Eggy. Skrelp is odd since you do a lot to it, but it OHKOes you meaning you have to weaken it and can only safely check.

That all being said, I do think that Eggy should be ranked, though I think C+ is a notch too high; I am currently slowly writing a post that has a bunch of arguments/discussion points for a lot of things put forward. Lowering Koffing and Numel is on that list, as is Frillish which if I remember correctly was raised due to its utility on webs and hard core walling of Staryu. I think that they all fall in mid C simply as they appear much stronger on paper than they do in battle, at least they have for me, though that's probably best saved for later.
 
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Nineage

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Is it just me who can't see the viability ranking of Phanpy or is it actually not there for such a cool mon
Speaking as a huge phanpy phan, Phanpy is just outclassed. It doesn't have spin like Drilbur or Sandshrew, or Arena Trap like Diglett. It does have a cool coverage movepool, but it's still more or less walled by the same old ground checks, and doesn't have the positives to make up for it.
 

Fiend

someguy
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Well you see, Larvesta can burn it and then easily U-turn out on it for what is really a 3hko factoring burn. Unlike Hippo, Phanpy requires BJ for recovery preventing it from adequately checking anything with knock off--which Hippo does really well--or suffering from chip damage which really sucks. Ice Shard barely helps versus Diglett, unless its Sash as EQ is better versus LO, but even then it's not too worth it, as Sash Diglett can still Sucker Punch for reliable damage. While Phanpy is better able to handle Croagunk, both Dril and Hippo handle it just fine.

The higher SpD is augmented by being weak to the common special moves (scald/hydro/ice beam/giga drain/leaf storm), though it does sorta help versus poison types. Gastly, Foongus, and Skrelp are still issues though so that only helps so much.

Knock Off is basically the extend of Phanpy's useful uniqueness, but this only helps versus Staryu, Pumpkaboo, plausibly Snivy, and Foongus. Staryu is sorta important, Pumpkaboo still wins 1v1 unless you speed creep and run head smash. Snivy is slightly worse without and Eviolite, but Knock Off + Ice Shard doesn't help that much unless you rely on Scarf Magnemite to revenge kill or something. Foongus always loses its item anyway so yeah.

But Phanpy could be placed in D I guess, it's about as good as the midtier in there simply due to its stats.
 
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Fiend

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I agree with a large portion of the nominations put forward in the thread; though there has been a hefty amount of these, I’m going to briefly go over all of those that I agree with, and why.

: A+ -> S

Drifloon has been nominated for S several times, and originally I felt this was simply because it was a new metagame trend and people were overhyping the pokemon--it’s only happened 14 times before! However, Drifloon has proved to be an immense pain with its extremely consistent Acrobatics / Will-o-wisp / Substitute / Recycle set. Drifloon has an arguably worse set with Calm Mind and Hex over Substitute and Acrobatics, though this can sometimes 6-0 outright, and manages to support the team even when it cannot sweep. Drifloon has the ability to make pretty much every sweeper better; burned Pawniard’s Sucker Punch is not an issue for Omanyte, the burn damage helps lower it in range of Fletchling--who can actually SD on burned Pawniard providing it has Roost--and Shellder, while Snivy has an easier time doing its thing if Pawniard is whittled and weakened from burn and Vullaby can 1v1 providing Pawniard doesn’t flinch 4 times. A burned Porygon helps literally everything but that burnt Porygon, while a burnt Archen and Magnemite can help both Fletchling and Pawniard break through them. A burnt Chinchou will lose to Ponyta, and is prone to losing to Fletchling as well. A burnt Vullaby is better for everyone, while a burnt Omanyte is far easier to revenge kill via priority. This isn’t even all of what Drifloon is able to support, while still being able to clean a majority of the tier and 1v1ing like 80% of the metagame. Drifloon makes a lot of already good things better, while also being really good by itself.

: A- -> A

This nomination has come up once or twice in the last year, never really being disagreed with but instead just not mentioned or discussed. Carvanha has been quite the a menace since the Misdreavus meta; it can hit hard from either side of the spectrum, though the physical set is more consistent if not solely because it cannot miss either STAB. Additionally, Zen Headbutt makes Carvanha a pain to switch into unless you’ve kept a Porygon/Snubbull/Ferroseed/Spritzee/Cottonee healthy. This is, however, unlikely due to the purpose of these pokemon; the extreme splashability of Fighting-types makes the fairies of that list much easier to bust through. Offense has a tendency to struggle against Carvanha, making it pretty easy to just toss onto a team of 5 solid pokemon. All Carvanha really needs is Knock Off support and Stealth Rocks (look at Zeril’s team from 2 years ago, it’s still semi solid because of how deadly the strategy is), and adding any further extent of weakening the opponent (burns, Toxic Spikes, regular Spikes) just means Carvanha is less likely to be forced out. SD pass into Carvanha is also a decently popular strategy, and only Abra, full health Timburr, Ferroseed, Cottonee, and Croagunk really prevent the strategy from working. Additionally, Carvanha can be a crucial member to a Water-spam core; Carvanha in tandem with Corphish or Tirtouga more or less counterteams balance teams without a Porygon + 2 things that can handle the Water-types.

: A- -> A

While I agree with the nomination, I feel that the ideas stated with it are shallow. Shellder has awesome synergy with pretty much anything that’s annoying in the tier; Abra can and will Knock Off Porygon and sometimes Slowpoke for you while also weakening Honedge. Fletchling weakens every Steel-type, and provides enough priority for irksome things like Abra, Gastly, Scarf Mienfoo, etc to make up for Shellder being relatively useless until it sets up. Pawniard Knocks Off Timburr, Croagunk, sets up SR, and generally softens the fat teams Shellder mildly dislikes. Mienfoo, specifically Poison Jab or Acrobatics, can lure Snubbull, Cottonee, Spritzee, deal with Pawniard, force Magnemite to pivot, and pivot in trappers. Cottonee can lure in Magnemite, Porygon, and Pawniard and kill them or cripple them. Cottonee can also be used to provide free turns for Shellder and lure in a lot of generally problematic pokemon for the team. Diglett is obviously good with Shellder. Snivy is okay with Shellder since they both struggle versus the same things and therefore these pokemon get greatly weakened. Download Porygon works similarly here.

: B+ -> A-

I liked Tirtouga a lot pretty much as soon as it got Zen Headbuut as this allowed me to lure Fighters and more reliably KO Foongus. Stone Edge sucks, but that’s okay as Zen / Stone Edge / Waterfall hits everything you care about. Scarf Pokemon royally ruin Tirt though, especially Aqua Jet-less sets, making it lackluster frequently. But on teams with several win conditions, Tirtouga is brilliant due to not relying on getting 2 smashes under its belt or otherwise beating common scarfers as other wincons handle this frequently.

: B+ -> A-

I would like to add that a lot of Croagunk’s downfalls are more easily patched up with the rise of Drifloon, as Drifloon happens to weaken most of what Croagunk is added to cover. A burnt Pawniard or Mienfoo or Archen is far easier for Croagunk to manage, and helps prevent Croagunk being forced to check the latter two while the 3rd is no longer a solid switch in. Ponyta has also seen more usage in this meta, and importantly helps augment Croagunk’s tendency to be worn down as it covers similar threats while covering each other's weaknesses. It's a combination of smashers and Water-spam and Drifloon all rising that have helped what works well with Croagunk rise again.


Just to address what Levi said about Cottonee, I don’t think Cottonee’s utility warrants it to reside in A- again. More of the things that Cottonee dislikes are relevant, and Grass-types are already used chiefly to check 3 pokemon. Yet Cottonee is also a fairy, and can therefore result in teams struggling with Scarf Pawniard or Magnemite unless you double down on what Cottonee can do i.e. checking Waters while not being inherently weak to Fighting-types. It’s support utility is really good, yes, but you still tend to beware priority users with Smashers even if they set up on a -2 pokemon. It’s probably the best mon or second best pokemon in B+ though.

: B+ -> B

It’s strong, but still rather weak, and its coverage lends to it being played around with some ease. It can be a threat, yes, but overall all of its sets have critical flaws in either giving free turns to pretty much every worthwhile wincon or being so slow, half of the teams out there always outpace it.

[super]: B+ -> B

It really isn’t super helpful unless you need a Ghost that has Ghost-type priority. I could even see it dropping further.

A- -> B+

Life Orb Vulpix sucks, as Overheat is the move of choice even versus most resists. It’s prone to being trapped and largely inferior to Houndour. Scarf Vulpix is not worth considering I find, and sun is mostly on the decline. I do see Drifloon sun being rather menacing, though this has to do with Drifloon being really good and less to do with Vulpix and Bellsprout being great.

B+ -> B

Bellsprout has like 2 counters on the average team now, and relies on a very trappable Vulpix to be able to do anything. I’ve thought it’s needed to move down for ages but everyone has disagreed simply because it’s still really good on paper.

B+ -> B

Sadly, Houndour is no longer splashable or incredibly hard for balance and offense alike to deal with, nor is it able to clean teams. It is, however, still a pain when it is used; it has 2 good sets in Life Orb and Scarf, and it has utility in harassing the Ghosts of the tier and Abra. Houndour is also really annoying when given support for opposing priority users, though Houndour is still really hard to slot onto a team now as it adds very little to the team compared to similar wallbreakers such as Gastly, Aipom, Carvanha, and other friends.

: B+ -> B-

Ziggy is really odd, since new users and ladder heros spam it for easy wins, yet it is countered by 2 of the 3 best mons in the meta while plenty can prevent Ziggy from setting up. It does set up on a lot too, but this is fine for B- since Ziggy lives and dies in matchup.

: C -> B-

The smash set sucks and loses to most teams. It does crush stall, however, which is rather irrelevant. The Sub set is really good but only versus slower pokemon, limiting its splashability. Corphish and Carvanha give it decent competition as a semi frail wall breaking Water-type too, further reducing Clamperl’s usage. But it exerts so much pressure when given 1 free turn that Clamperl is always something to beware.

Ziggy and Clamperl are somewhat similar, yes, though they are also very different. They're very powerful and only sometimes effective, but Clamperl doesn't only rely on setting up like Ziggy does and this makes it slightly more--but still not really--splashable. Yet they should be ranked the same as Ziggy is a far more viable sweeper while Clamperl has several teams that it can fit onto and be consistent (ffs I'm not counting setup spam as a real team).

: B -> B+

Aipom’s speed makes it stand out from the other 47 wallbreakers in the tier, and its sheer strength and flexibility differentiates it from the other normals of the tier. Knock Off + Fury Swipes 2HKOes the meta, Rocks and Steels withholding. Brick Break and Seed Bomb help force opponents to either have the correct counter to Aipom, otherwise outplay greatly, or lose a pokemon. Even if they have Onix or Tirtouga and Aipom is Brick Break, after these take a Knock Off Aipom can usually beat them on the second switch in with prediction. Aipom has utility in Fake Out and the ability to check Mienfoo, Gastly, and Drilbur giving it an edge over other quick wallbreakers such as Gastly who don’t quite support the team and cannot reliably kill these from a decent health. Moreover, Aipom can also open up holes for Shellder and Fletchling while benefiting from Diglett. Aipom can rather easily be utilized simply due to offensive synergy, despite being only a pure normal type.

: B -> B-

Stunky sucks, and it is really bad at being effective in the current meta since Drifloon 1v1s it and 18 speed Stunky is largely pointless; in general, it is weak as hell. Abra, Ferroseed, Spritzee, and Gastly aren’t common enough nor without other countermeasures to warrant it being ranked high at all.

: B -> B-

I have always liked Taillow, but it is so easy to weaken or revenge despite its speed. I prefer Doduo over it unless I want a special Normal-type, but that’s not really something desired, ever.

: B- -> C+

I mentioned things being overhyped before while really just being bad in general. This is one of those things that got overhyped when really beating Gastly (and then Missy), Bellsprout, and Drilbur is no longer so important, especially since as a Grass-type it has stiff competition and Bellsprout is far better handled now than 2 years ago.

: B- -> C+

I’ve literally nommed this twice; Licki is dropping. I’ll quote myself from earlier because nothing has really changed for it other than that it can annoy and pp stall Drifloon though it still doesn’t do so to any real benefit.

Licki actually has some really cool things it can do, in Counter and SD plus the standard stall-y sets. Tahu was playing around with Licki on full stall recently and ran a set with bloody thunder punch to fully cover Fletchling / Oma / Shellder for example. However, Counter is kinda awful versus Scarf Foo or even just HJK Mienfoo. SD acts are decent lure too, but this makes Licki fail to do anything besides lure or provide a single time check to sweepers. Curse can theoretically work amazingly, but the only plausible reasons to run this over Munchlax is you're playing Missy meta or running Dragon Tail (which is bad). It's all really niche though not inherently bad always, which is why I've been a proponent of it falling down to C+.
: C- -> C+

Rufflet is really annoying. It’s fantastic on Webs and OHKOes most of the average bird checks which is great when these are all -1 speed. Archen is an issue, as can be priority users, though Eviolite can be used instead of Life Orb at the cost of a few OHKOes. It’s not the best of pokemon, though it puts a ton of pressure on many builds even when webs are not used and is, of course, great with Drifloon and Diglett, naturally boosting its viability.

[Small]: B- -> C

As another overhyped pokemon from earlier this gen, Pumpkaboo-Small was loved as it can OHKO the fattest things in the tier with Bullet Seed, had priority for utility, Flame Charge to make revenge killing harder, and the ability to kill Grass-type resists with Rock Slide. However, Bullet Seed rarely gets the 5 hits it needs for the OHKOes you want, priority Acrobatics, Sucker Punch, Foongus, and a plethora of scarfers able to OHKO it help stop Pumpkaboo from being used. Even as a Grass-type, Pumpkaboo suffers from providing little defensive support and, as a Ghost, it’s too slow before a Flame Charge to really stand out. It’s a lot like Mankey, where it certainly has cases where it works and works well but needs a fair amount going for it to achieve this.

: C+ -> B-

Really nothing to add. It's strong and autowins versus teams that don't run Water-type priority or Scarf Mienfoo a lot of the time. Still not amazing but great in a bo3 environment imo.

: C+ -> C ; potentially C-

Inkay really sucks. It has a lot of potential to be good: STAB Knock Off, a powerful attack that also makes Inkay stronger, the ability to OHKO half of the common Dark resists, and beating Snubbull. Yet, the stats and pretty terrible defensive typing just makes this all fall apart.

: C+ -> C

It’s so prone to being whittled and burns are spammed a lot already. It is a little annoying to switch into simply because status sucks, yet a good number of teams have heal bell now and special attackers can always dispatch of it since it switches into Knock Off so much. It also doesn’t hit that hard, unless you really can’t risk some health on Chinchou or whatever.

: C -> C+

I’m not too sure if Kabuto should rise since so many Water-types are good right now. Kabuto does generally perform well though, but it’s hard to fit onto a team. There is very little demand for what Kabuto does, yet it is still an effective pokemon despite being largely outclassed.

: C -> C-

It blows. It doesn't do anything special either.

: D -> C+

I do think this is another pokemon being overhyped and generally loved for no reason other than it beats some common threats and some not so common things (BJ mag isn’t super common now for instance). Trapping Diglett is decent though, and differentiates it from Diglett enough that it should be ranked as more than awful. Any higher is actually dumb since Trapinch is entirely unproven in LCPL, never seen on the ladder (by me anyway!), and has only won when being ‘used’ by doing very little/nothing.

: Unranked --> C

Previous post mentioned my general thoughts, but I’m starting to really appreciate Psychic STAB since plenty of teams generally dislike the typing.

Now for everything I disagree with:

: A+ -> S

I would say that generally when you propose such a change to a pokemon raising to S, you need a decent bit of reasoning, and I only really found one post on it so I'll just address that post.

Some people have shown disagreement, but there is literally no reason not to run one of Abra's two sets on your team.
I think everyone goes through some variation of “abra is the best mon ever” and says something similar to this. Abra is indeed really, really, really good. Abra is also able to do a lot with its two sets, and is very unique with its speed, power, and indifference to hazards. However it is not so good that it should be on every team, nor would I propose it be placed on most teams since it provides little defensive utility until it is in, which generally means you had something die or got a cool pivot in. The first of these is unideal, and the second of these has a tendency of being impractical with so many things that beat it around.
Abra's sash set is an AMAZING check to set up sweepers bar hax and shellder,
This is nothing new, and it causes 5v5.5 games, which is slightly in your favor but still generally exploitable since you need to play smartly with Abra--especially considering that so many sweepers love Diglett.
and the Life Orb set 2hkos the majority of the tier, allowing it to destroy fatter teams
Pretty much everything used right now likes to eat the fat teams that LO was great versus. In general fat teams aren’t as common anymore; instead, they're balanced teams that rely less on sheer bulk and more on typings to deal with things. While balance does hate playing against Life Orb Abra, this is true for every fast wallbreaker and isn’t really special unless your team can’t really deal with Timburr and Foongus. Even still, Psychic Gastly gives it a run for its money at dealing with these. A lot of balance teams have things like Scarf Pawniard or Diglett or Honedge too, which reduces Life Orb Abra to a 1 for 1 trade if it’s matched up against a decent team. More importantly, these things can only be really played around by not using Abra (or using Shadow Ball for Honedge!), making it at best a late game cleaner which pretty much everything is good enough at.
while the sash set has a field day revenge-killing Pokemon on offensive teams.
I find the only time that Abra should be added is you want to Knock Off Porygons or you’re weak to A LOT of things. Playing recklessly versus offense teams is pretty bad since chances are you’re weak to something. These teams have a lot of priority and speed and usually two or more set up sweepers, which is bad for Abra.
Its amazing speed tier, ability, and sheer wallbreaking power means it deserves S-Rank along with Drifloon.
This doesn’t really say how it is an S rank other than it breaks fat teams, which have to be more adapted to Abra and Gastly anyhow. Its ability is good yes, but it isn’t regen or unburden good imo. It’s speed isn’t that special either. I guess you can argue that having two A+ sets makes Abra worthy of S, though I would argue Abra’s LO set is only A (the top of it though) since it is removed by a bunch of common things, and the Sash set isn’t the top of A+.

: A+ -> A

Levi you seem to at least partially neglect how well Fletchling pairs with so many sweepers. It loves Snivy, Drifloon, Shellder, and Carvanha as teammates. It acts as a gluemon on offense in much the same way as Staryu and Croagunk and Cottonee and Pawniard do, and, though this isn’t enough to keep it A+ by itself, it does fit on more teams than you listed with a decent amount of ease. Smash teams, Zig teams, bird spam, general offense, and even balance all can use Fletchling well without any concessions. I have several dual scarf teams that use Fletchling to lure and consequently patch a weakness to Omanyte. I have had numerous FletchShell teams which used Fletchling to pressure Shellder's checks. I think you’re underestimating the utility of Acrobatics and its ability to force out many threats while simultaneously overestimating how hard it is for it to sweep. And, yes; while Fletchling has had an all time low ease of sweeping, its attempts to sweep enables so many more. Simply clicking U-turn and Acrobatics does a lot for a team, even ignoring the coverage options it uses. And while Overheat requires prediction, it does make Magnemite and Pawniard awful sole checks. Fletchling can murder opposing offense, or struggle to set up and sweep yet still do what it needs to do, providing it is not used as a sole wincon. Fletchling should not be used as a sole wincon, and with the general state of the meta it rarely is, unless the backbone of the team is Knock off spammy or great wallbreakers back up the bird. In this case I would argue the team is bad, and Fletchling is only slightly to blame.

It is perhaps the worst in A+, I might agree to that, but it is better than everything in A; some of those are being proposed for A+, so I’m convinced--as of now anyway--that Fletchling belongs in A+.

: A -> A+

I would disagree that the metagame is any more friendly for this abomination of a creature. Foongus should not be in A+. It does beat Mienfoo, and Corphish, and Zen Headbuttless Carvhana, and it annoys Skrelp. Yet the thing goes out of its way to be smacked with Knock Off, and then suddenly Mienfoo can 3hko it with HJK. Drilbur then 2hkoes with EQ. Corphish 2hkoes after sr plus 2 more damage. Pawniard 2hkoes with Iron head after Stealth Rock. Ice beam/Psychic from Staryu 2hkoes. Carvanha kills with Waterfall + crunch after SR. After a Knock Off, Foongus is placed in a position where a lot of the things Foongus is splashed onto teams to do becomes much harder without a free turn. Even if you add a Foongus to your team, you still need to be concerned with Smashers (all of them), Chinchou, and Snivy if they can keep SR up. Drifloon generally loves dealing with Foongus teams since it’s so easy to U-turn on with Mienfoo. Fairies are also mildly less common than before, reducing this utility too. It doesn’t fit with the A+ pokemon simply due to it not covering everything it seems to, at least as well as hoped for. It checks a good number of pokemon, but the key idea here is it checks them instead of hard countering them. Spore is really good, yes, but Foongus is still decently passive, meaning sleep turns can be burnt while staring it down. Not to mention Drifloon has caused Heal Bell to be once again moderately common. And you mentioned Toxic Spikes being more common now, but I think it’s just as used as before only now you have a few teams using it so you notice it more (this isn’t super important overall, but I find this point doesn’t support Foongus).

It is true that Foongus has nothing to really compare itself to in A+, though I would say that’s because it better compares to Chinchou and Staryu and Spritzee than it does Timburr in its strength. Foongus checks a lot of things as the aforementioned do as well, and is more irksome because of Spore, though Chinchou generates so much momentum and counters 4 of the top 10 pokemon in the tier while its 4th slot allows it to chose what else it can soft check. I would also argue that Chinchou is as splashable as Foongus, as is Staryu, which is below Chinchou and Foongus or, at best, in the same tier as them if its nom gets agreed on.


: A- -> A

I don’t understand this nomination as it's mostly about being the best spinner while also being a great LO attacker. But the LO set is more comparable to Elekid or Taillow I feel, where it gets one kill and then lots needs to go your way to be better than other options. It has value simply because of its surprise factor, but I hate the notion of raising it because it has a decent and uncommon set.

I understand it deals with Drifloon much better than Drilbur, but to also constantly do so you need to either always click Scald as it comes in then go out to your counter or have Thunder Wave. LO Staryu has such small usage that this also works, but I find that Staryu is such a good glue pokemon that Life Orb hinders more than it helps.

I do not have much experience with the Life Orb set though, so I could be wrong; this is something I only mildly disagree with anyway, as nothing has compelled me towards the side of it raising.

: A- -> A

Levi claims it has two A- sets, yet I feel it has a B+ set in hazards and an A- set in Smash. It’s an all or nothing sweeper, and eat balance alive at the cost of being semi difficult to set up. Omanyte is also largely weak to priority after a smash, and thus needs like 3 pokemon dead before it wins. Omanyte has less synergy with other sweepers compared to other sweepers too (though it does kill Porygon and set up on Fletch so there is some!), and thus is harder to fit onto a team. Instead it has to be built around on a semi balance type team leaving it rather... plain, and often times either useless or unsupported. I also don’t think that hazards Oma is all that great since it compounds weaknesses really easily, and therefore prevents certain really good offensive cores from abusing hazard stack.

: C+ -> B-

I used to agree, but really, Tyrunt doesn’t have much going for it over everything else. It isn’t a bad pokemon, but it doesn’t really have a useful niche. Being a Dragon isn’t great but it doesn’t suck either, though it doesn’t get much out of the second STAB since Stone Edge hits harder and Steel-types don’t care about either STAB. Dragon Claw is more consistent as an attack but every other option Tyrunt has is consistent enough. The DD set is fun but no better than smashers unless you cannot break Porygon and the SR set isn’t very desired. SR DD Tyrunt is pretty useful for some, but it’s a niche set and isn’t directly better than by SR Smash Tirt. Tyrunt is viable but not good enough for (notable) usage unfortunately.

: C+ -> B-

It’s soooooo passive. It doesn’t threaten anything other than Water-types well enough, and it also has a minimal niche that isn’t very great. It loses to some of the best pokemon in the tier, and consequently requires more supportive measures than other Water-type checks. Plus, Stealth Rock is not very hard to fit onto a team nor is a generally bulky pokemon.

: C+ -> C
: C -> C+

I find Tini to be an unimpactful pokemon when compared to Axew. Tini has less bulk, and less options for it to use. ESpeed is weak and most of what you would like to have the extra prio for takes 25% from the Life Orb set. Sure Shellder and Fletchling lake slightly more, but this isn't very relevant most of the time. On the other hand, Axew is much better since it can SD or DD, has a reliable STAB and reliable coverage to kill supposed counters. Axew is really good on Webs, and okay on some teams just built around it. I don’t care that much honestly, but these to are on different levels of being viable. They’re both still bad though, so if they need to be in the same subtier, C it is.

_ _ _

I am unsure about Vullaby, Snivy, and Spinarak noms so I’ll bring those up in my next post where I try to move a number of things!

Also shoutouts to Berks for looking this over to make sure I don't sound like a 7 year old (grammar is hard).
 
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I have to disagree with my man Fiend on only 1 thing even tho his post is on point.
omanyte_by_1_084-d2ztazo.jpg

This mon has done me so much that I really hate to see it in A-. The fact that it can kill almost all the top threats in the tier when smashed and set up on fletch while having a hazard set means a lot for me. This guy can kill porygon one of the biggest special walls in lc. Its only big weakness is priority and abra which can be taken care of pretty easily. The core of Omanyte Pawniard and Gothita has won me a lcpl game with support from cottonee. You forgot to add priority to your team gg you just lost to this 1 small little snail like thing. The argument Fiend made about it being useless and unsupported really doesn't make sense to me. (While you do have to build around it somewhat I feel like it deserves it 100%. ) In my game vs star I basically won when I encored with cottonee then went into omanyte.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-lc-168475

Mambo EDIT: put your image in hide tags
 
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Camden

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I updated the VR (finally) to include everything Fiend said he agreed with, except for Taillow. I feel like Taillow has carved a niche in today's metagame as a suitable offensive check to Drifloon (ESPECIALLY ON A GYM LEADER TEAM NOPE GET OUTTA MY POST), seeing as how it can come in on a WoW or Sub and force it out. Yes, I know there are obvious exceptions when it comes to handling Drifloon, but it being one of the few Pokemon that actually prefers Drifloon to be behind a sub is a huge boost to its strengths.


So overall I made the following changes:

Drifloon: A+ > S
Carvanha: A- > A
Shellder: A- > A
Croagunk: B+ > A-
Bunnelby: B+ > B
Pumpkaboo-Super: B+ > B
Vulpix: A- > B+
Bellsprout: B+ > B
Houndour: B+ > B
Zigzagoon: B+ > B-
Clamperl: C > B-
Aipom: B > B+
Stunky: B > B-
Chespin: B- > C+
Lickitung: B- > C+
Rufflet: C- > C+
Pumpkaboo-Small: B- > C
Magby: C+ > B-
Inkay: C+ > C
Koffing: C+ > C
Kabuto: C > C+
Mantyke: C > C-
Trapinch: D > C+
Exeggcute: Unranked > C
 
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https://www.youtube.com/user/SkyBrickStudios/videos

Here's my YouTube channel where I post some LC videos as well as other Showdown tiers. I'd like to prove the power of Igglybuff and Phantump most of all. Those 2 and Taillow are the core of my LC team.

Igglybuff
Friend Guard @ Eviolite
Max HP with even Def/SpDef boosts and a splash of SpAtk
-Wish
-Thunder Wave
-Hyper Voice
-Magic Coat (Stealth Rock/Toxic)

--This can go through subs, support your team, heal your team, slow your opponent, and do A TON of damage with STAB Hyper Voice, nearly 2HKO-ing anything that doesn't resisst it. Yes Spritzee too...

Phantump
Harvest @ Sitrus/Oran Berry
Max HP, SpDef, Atk investments
-Protect
-Will-O-Wisp
-Leech Seed
-Horn Leech

--Heals so much that it only dies be getting OHKOed honestly.

Also Taillow can outspeed a ton of things, gets Focus Energy, Brave Bird, and U-Turn, and OHKOes so much

Honorable mention would be Berry Juice Cherubi. When it can't be hard countered, it's Chlorophyll/Sunny Day/Solar Beam/Weather Ball/Growth or HP Rock can outspeed most Scarfed Pokemon.

I know you can see I am new here, but have been doing Showdown/competitive Pokemon for 6 months now.
 

doomsday doink

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https://www.youtube.com/user/SkyBrickStudios/videos

Here's my YouTube channel where I post some LC videos as well as other Showdown tiers. I'd like to prove the power of Igglybuff and Phantump most of all. Those 2 and Taillow are the core of my LC team.

Igglybuff
Friend Guard @ Eviolite
Max HP with even Def/SpDef boosts and a splash of SpAtk
-Wish
-Thunder Wave
-Hyper Voice
-Magic Coat (Stealth Rock/Toxic)

--This can go through subs, support your team, heal your team, slow your opponent, and do A TON of damage with STAB Hyper Voice, nearly 2HKO-ing anything that doesn't resisst it. Yes Spritzee too...

Phantump
Harvest @ Sitrus/Oran Berry
Max HP, SpDef, Atk investments
-Protect
-Will-O-Wisp
-Leech Seed
-Horn Leech

--Heals so much that it only dies be getting OHKOed honestly.

Also Taillow can outspeed a ton of things, gets Focus Energy, Brave Bird, and U-Turn, and OHKOes so much

Honorable mention would be Berry Juice Cherubi. When it can't be hard countered, it's Chlorophyll/Sunny Day/Solar Beam/Weather Ball/Growth or HP Rock can outspeed most Scarfed Pokemon.

I know you can see I am new here, but have been doing Showdown/competitive Pokemon for 6 months now.
I'm just going to address this honestly, hopefully you'll take it as the constructive criticism I intend for it to be.

Neither Igglytuff nor Phantump are good. Igglytuff's stats are pathetic and it's outclassed by numerous other clerics / Normal-type Pokemon. I took your "splash of Special Attack" to mean about 100 EVs or so of investment and it's not even coming close to 2HKOing Spritzee (see below). Phantump struggles to get anything done even under the sun, as a reliance on a SR-weak Fire-type to stall things out, especially in an offensive metagame such as LC, is quite bad. Cherubi is also quite bad and can be dealt with quite easily by the same things that check Bellsprout (Vullaby, Chespin, Hippopotas, etc).

100 SpA Igglybuff Hyper Voice vs. 212 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Spritzee: 6-7 (22.2 - 25.9%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO

I like Taillow though, it's probably one of my favorite Pokemon to use currently.

You do, however, obviously care enough about learning and playing Little Cup to dedicate part of your YouTube channel to it and post in this subforum. You don't appear to be familiar with Smogon's forums whatsoever; however, if you'd like to hop into the PS! Little Cup chat sometime, I'd be happy to give you some pointers and get you headed in the right direction. As a start, this thread is mainly oriented around tiering Pokemon based on their effectiveness in the metagame. You didn't make any concrete proposals in your post and I truly don't think either of the sets you mentioned would warrant raising the ranks of those Pokemon anyways. You can check out some of the other posts made in this thread to get a better idea of what I'm talking about.

Stick around in LC!
 
Now we are listing harvest users and Drifloon banned how about we question the viability of a certain other pokemon to take a placehold as a stall user/Breaker:


Phantump @ Oran Berry
Ability: Harvest
Level: 5
EVs: 12 HP / 36 Atk / 132 Def / 116 SpD / 212 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Horn Leech
- Rock Slide/Shadow Claw/Leech Seeds
- Will-O-Wisp
- Substitute

Now that Drifloon has officially been banned there are many holes in peoples teams. This is his chance to shine bright in the darkness with a will-O and a Substitute doll. Phantump has been overshadowed by people many times and it's not any where near A, B but may be C. We are viewing a niche here and Phantump can have a part of this niche. Having access to 2 usable but not amazing sets I thought why not show the set I like the most. It's a slight variation of the seed set with more speed. The coverage on all sets is pretty much the same as it wants Grass coverage in the form of Horn Leech, Rock Slide for Fire types, Shadow Claw is meant to be a second stab but doesn't do too much in terms of actual coverage and Leech seed is simply a bad option in LC for it's odd damage and limited use with hazard stack but this can still be rewarding if utilized like that(It can be but this kind of Stall teams<).
The point of this speed much like Berks pointed out with Exeggsecute is highly important. This isn't comparable with the utility of sleep but more being able to actually achieve something with it's offense as it allows you to outspeed Larvesta allowing you to get of a Rock Slide, outspeed 13 or below speed smashers like Omanyte and Tirtouga. Much like Drifloon it's not good if it gets up a Substitute as it can infinitely stall the slower speed tier. Having access to Harvest helps with this stall as it doesn't take a turn to be utilized. While most teams have a Pawniard/Mienfoo/Ponyta or anything above 14 speed this pokemon can deal decently well against the slower part. The typing while not fortunate isn't too big of an issue as it allows you to beat smashers better.
My complains about the current set is slightly besides the point as the special defense investment as far as calcs go are to weak to work even with 16 spD. 14 still allows you to hold up a Substitude against Chinchous Scald/VoltSwitch, Staryu's Scald and able to survive other viable pokemon there main coverage moves like Porygons Ice beam can't 1HKO.
While this poke still suffers from Fire types, Flying types, Random Ice coverage and Pawniard/Timburr specifically this poke still has a big load to offer.
This is in no way a drifloon but more of an ask for seeing the utility a Stall poke like this can have and as Berks already suggested we should be able to rank pokemon based on there overall niche they can represent and how valid that niche is.
I am not suggesting this pokemon to be worth the D ranking based on the now unique being utility. Even while keeping in mind the fact this has much lower speed to work then Drifloon let alone the offense of Calm Mind/Unburden Acro.
 
didn't we just have a post on why phantump is garbage? It's very much outclassed by Pumpkaboo, lacking the same survivability or coverage. Harvest only has a 50% chance of activating outside of Sun, and even then you're largely wasting valuable turns that could be put to better use. Imo having niche coverage to nail certain switches doesn't really cut it when Phantump struggles to even get its job done.

I really see no reason why this Pokemon should be higher than D, if even ranked at all.
 

Corporal Levi

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I don't think anything should move around specifically because of Drifloon being banned, because the metagame never really shifted to accommodate for it to begin with. Things like Snivy and Staryu that supposedly just lose to Recycle Drifloon never actually dropped after Drifloon entered the scene, or, in Drilbur's case, arguably had it coming well before. Checks to Drifloon like Ponyta and Magnemite didn't move up, either. The main exceptions to this are Pumpkaboo-Small and Pumpkaboo-Super, but moving them back to their original ranks is iffy because Pumpkaboo-Small was probably a bit niche to warrant B- anyways, and we have since come to realize that Pumpkaboo-Super isn't that great in general.

If Phantump wasn't good enough to get out of D in late December when Recycle Drifloon began gaining popularity, I don't see why it's good enough now.
 
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Shrug

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foongus for A+

does everything - water check, fight check, fairy check. preserves some semblance of offensive momentum with spore, giga drain is good obviously, and the best laid counters or whatever (vullaby) are felled by a sludge bomb poison which happens more often than it seemingly should. really hard to threaten too, has some crazy lives like fletch acro, sashbra psychic, goth psychic i think, and kill with spore, recovering health on the switchout. if u have rocks up it's really a tremendous momentum killer because the things that kill it cant voltturn or can but are birds and will need to recover, plus youve slept a mon with spore, etc. have some cool 4th move options too. takes knock offs but something has to do it. i think A+ works for this mon
 

Shrug

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LCPL Champion
Drillbur for A-. Reasoning:

  • It sucks dick
It isn't really bulky or fast or powerful, any person semi-dedicated to hazards can keep them with like a pump or just by exploiting drillburs myriad weaknesses. Drillbur is poorly suited to a metagame where water and grass types show up everywhere everyone has things that take ground moves and the electrics it should beat still do metric fuckloads of damage with coverage moves. Its pros, like switching into magnemite, are dampened by both the fact it usually can do only one of them once and its tendency to choke down massive schlongs at every other possible opportunity. I cringe everytime I see a drillbur either sacrificed to allow better Pokemon in or awkwardly maneuvered into a position to spin, after which it is swiftly and viciously exploited without fail. Sorry for the tone of this post o just dislike drillbur
 

Berks

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It also doesn't help that a meta so over prepared for Diglett leaves Drilbur in an awful position. It really is difficult to justify giving Drilbur a spot on a team with so many better rockers, spinners, and Ground-types. At this point, I'd say Drilbur is in even a worse position than Onix, so I support its drop to A-.

Onix to B+

If you take away Spikes, Onix is simply a better Dwebble in every aspect. It's faster, fatter, can actually check birds, and has the room to run what is a significantly better dual STAB. Onix also can't be set up on by stuff like Shellder because of Taunt, turning what would be a huge liability into free turns for the Onix user. Both Onix and Dwebble are prone to being Knocked Off but smart play and conservation of Berry Juice can help alleviate this. I think Onix is probably the best dedicated rocker in this meta (Pawn is also a wallbreaker while Diggy is Diggy) so I think it should move up to B+ alongside Dwebble. Dwebble should stay in B+, however, due to its access to Spikes.
 

sam-testings

What a beautiful face, I have found in this place
Dwebble is horrible, every set is countered by any good fighting type. But yeah, onix is super good right now. Ground and Rock STAB is really nice, and being in a nice speed tier helps it a lot. As long as you are playing with it smartly, Onix should be able to get up rocks pretty often throughout a game. I support a rise to B+

Drilbur is so bad im tempted to try to get it to drop even lower, but A- sounds about right for it. Drilburs only real niche these days is "role compression", but when it cant live long enough to do its role its kinda useless.
 

sam-testings

What a beautiful face, I have found in this place
counter dwebble wins vs fights
at least in my experience, counter dwebble is easily seen from a mile away. If it isnt shell smash, it probably has counter, allowing you to easily play around it. I just have never found a dwebble intimidating or that hard to play around, especially considering 70% of all dwebble are lead suicide dwebble that are used on ho. I still stand by my statement that currently, dwebble is pretty horrible.

Edit: also, Taunt Mienfoo makes most Dwebble virtually useless. taunt foo best foo
 
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glameow.jpg

Glameow to around C-

When I saw this poke was unranked when I looked for it I was so confused. It does not deserve smog frog. It has a great move pool as a anti lead in fake out, play rough, return, sucker, iron tail, U-turn, knock, water pulse, and more. Just look at these calcs.
236 Atk Life Orb Glameow Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 5-8 (23.8 - 38%) -- 1.1% chance to 3HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Glameow Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 13-18 (61.9 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Bulkfoo aka Dedfoo

236 Atk Life Orb Glameow Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dwebble: 4-4 (19 - 19%) -- guaranteed 6HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Glameow Iron Tail vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dwebble: 21-26 (100 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
No hazards for you

236 Atk Life Orb Glameow Fake Out vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Onix: 3-4 (14.2 - 19%) -- possible 6HKO
0- SpA Life Orb Glameow Water Pulse vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Onix: 21-26 (100 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
why u tryna place rocks my friend

236 Atk Life Orb Glameow Iron Tail vs. 76 HP / 76 Def Archen: 26-31 (113 - 134.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
bruh

236 Atk Life Orb Glameow Iron Tail vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Anorith: 26-31 (123.8 - 147.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
BRUHHHH

wanna switch on fake out ghosts?
236 Atk Life Orb Glameow Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gastly: 29-36 (152.6 - 189.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
ded

236 Atk Life Orb Glameow Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 116 Def Eviolite Honedge: 13-16 (61.9 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
where is your recovery

236 Atk Life Orb Glameow Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 204 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 13-18 (52 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Glameow Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 236 HP / 116+ Def Eviolite Frillish: 13-18 (52 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
crippled


While other anti-leads like aipom and meowth can do this a bit better, glameow has the niche of killing mienfoo and does not deserve to be unranked.
 
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