How to Beat Stall-Discussion

[animenagai]

thanks for the info. as a relatively inexperienced player i have a lot of trouble with stall, so i'm trying to build a team taking into account the various suggestions in the thread.

question (a la dwight from the office): is ttar a good choice on an offensive team? if i were to have sd ape, latias can come in on either cc or fire punch, outspeed and ko. ttar is a good counter to latias, and can deal with rotom and celebi too. however, earlier stathakis said pursuiters have no place on an offensive team. also cb ttar can be predicted, so flashstorm suggested lefties in place...but wouldn't the absence of choice band lower ttar's attack too much?

and lastly (sorry, i have a lot of questions), the cb ttar smogon set has it running 80 speed to hit 178, one point above 4 speed ev skarmory. however, the standard skarmory set runs 16 speed evs, hitting 180 speed. granted, you don't see rhyperior in standard play that much, so not many people may pay attention to that number. but if ttar doesn't benefit from outspeeding skarmory wouldn't it be better to allocate those speed evs to somewhere else?

hahah as you can see i am quite desperate to beat the tar out of stall...using ttar

As much as I respect Stathakis, he plays a very special type of offense. He plays all out, suicidal offense, which really is quite different to the popular bulky offense. I use t-tar in my bulky offensive teams all the time and it works well. Just make sure you have stuff that can take on scizor, lucario etc. as they can set up on a pursuit.

T-tar on your team looks decent as it can pursuit starmie and latias, both big ape counters. However between sand and LO, ape dies out quite quickly. That's just somehting you have to keep in mind and play around (ie. only use it when you have to).

 

[Flashstorm1]

Tyranitar deals about 50% to Blissey with Pursuit if it switches out, assuming Tyranitar is running Leftovers. Also, Leftovers prevents you from getting WishStalled to death, and Choice Band is really only needed for immediate power which Tyranitar can do without assuming you have proper support (for example, take a look at my post in "OU Combinations").

 

[Stathakis]

So if Pursuit and Dugtrio work bad on both offensive and stall teams, what teams would they work on? Generally, the teams that need specific threats removed are offensive, like to remove Blissey for Porygon-Z to sweep. They're just not "full out" offensive - they're better at stalling than other offensive teams, and can afford to let Salamence get one DD boost. Pursuiters and Dugtrio would work well on a mixed team, or on a team that's "between" an offensive team and a mixed team.

who ever said dugtrio worked badly on stall teams? things like mamoswine, dugtrio, cb scizor, and the like work great on stall teams, adding some immediate damage as well as trapping and picking off weakened threats and even sweeping after enough spikes damage has been done (in the case of scizor or mamo). in fact, the only team I'd ever use cb scizor or dugtrio on is a heavily defensive or stall team.

Would perhaps mixed teams be the best counter for stall teams. They could, for instance, set up Spikes as the Stall team sets up Spikes, have a Rapid Spinner like Rotom-H to prevent the Spikes from going away, but unlike the stall team, have a sweeper like Lucario that loves Spikes support. Now even that dam Hippowdon cannot survive a +2 Close Combat, and Celebi will always be OHKOed by +2 Crunch / Ice Punch.

a well-built offense team played by a smart player always beats a well-built stall team played by a smart player. ALWAYS. a tremendous amount of hax is needed for stall to beat offense (you don't even have to predict with offense when playing stall, so as long as you don't predict you cant mispredict). the pressure put up by well-built offense teams keeps stall from putting up very many set up hazards, and the whole 'soften and sweep' strategy outlined by animenagai works without fail. so, in a sense, heavy offense is the best counter to heavy stall, since you don't even have to predict at all. mix teams are ok, but if the opponent is like IPL and carries multiple counters to your sweeper, you're in trouble. a lot of good stall teams carry fast things like latias and scarfrotom (<3 fabs) that can mess with a bunch of sweepers. it's better to have a lot of chances to break through the opponent, to have a lot of win conditions.

 

[Rolf]

My favorite way to beat stall is through gimmicks. Stall teams tend to prepare for a certain set on a certain pokemon not considering other moves. So when they see something that isn't normal they tend to start to over predict and members start falling.

This^^

I find MixNite works very well at breaking most stall.

Another set I have stumbled upon that rapes stall (but has problems with Hippowdon) is a MixKiss that runs Focus Punch, Extremespeed, Flamethrower and Roost. Almost all stall will immediately send out blissey to beat any Air Slash flinch hax, but Focus Punch will always OHKO. Extremespeed get STAB and priority, and Kiss is really the only viable user of ES that gets STAB on it. Flamethrower eats any Skarms and Celebi that get the idea of switching in after you use your physical assults. Aura Sphere over Focus Punch would only be viable against Tyranitar who otherwise hurts this set, which is why I chose Focus Punch over it (see the smogon analysis)

I'm running Hustle, of course, with the same EVs as the set on the analysis. Feel free to try it out.

 

[monkymeet]

My method of beating stall is through sheer power. A team of all Choice Banders is a lot of fun and does well in my experience.

 

[paramylodon]

My method of beating stall is through sheer power. A team of all Choice Banders is a lot of fun and does well in my experience.

A team like that is simply inferior to the type that Stathakis advocates.
Choice moves will lock you into attacks that then allow him to use your pokemon as set up fodder, and obviously the likes of a free +1 attack and speed + life orb or +2 attack and life orb is far superior to simply +1 (and being unable to change moves), so he wouldn't have much trouble sweeping and dominating your team.

And when it comes to playing stall, the bonuses may not be as permanent, but he would have a lot easier time softening the walls, and through playing around with resistances stall will have a very easy time forcing constant switches (taking maximum advantage of entry hazards, which can also be set up with the free turns on switches), while, the all out suicidal offense team wont provide any such opportunity thanks to the ability to switch attacks (not giving free turns making setting up entry hazards difficult) and the lack of switching it would be forced into as it would simply sac.

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The point on spikes on a more offensive/balanced team has been covered by others. Sure, if you have the opportunity, why not set up more? It would help u-turn spamming scizor die even faster. I'm just saying that there is no need, and even just one layer is very helpful. There is no obligation to getting more; just one helps your luke and salamence sweep (to name a couple of examples).

 

[WarriorPrince]

My method of beating stall is through sheer power. A team of all Choice Banders is a lot of fun and does well in my experience.

It wouldn't be much of a problem to stall you out by switching between physical walls and recovering.

The opponent would also figure out one's team much earlier due to the vast amount of switches that would need to take place. This would also cause one to predict more. With more predictions come more mispredictions.

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I find that one the most effective ways to beat stall is to use a Bulky Offense. It is not complicated. Stat up Sweepers, Wallbreakers, and choice users, when used properly, make life much easier when facing stall teams.

 

[franky]

Togekiss @ Leftovers / Lum Berry
Ability: Serene Grace
Modest Nature
EV: 252 HP / 152 SpA / 104 Spe

-Substitute
-Nasty Plot
-Air Slash
-Aura Sphere

This is something I have tested for a while and is designed specifically to destroy stall. This guy is a forgotten threat on Stall Teams and on every description on RMT, it is not expanded enough as a threat. They will always say "Blissey should handle it with Toxic" I started out by using the standard Nasty Plot Togekiss against my friend who used ObiStall a while ago. Instead of Leftovers I used Lum Berry. I decided to put Substitute + Leftovers. The strategy is simple actually switch in on a physical wall, stall team player's first instinct is to switch to a special wall. Blissey would be the common switch in. You Substitute on a switch to predict and dodge Toxic then proceed to use Nasty Plot. Lum Berry is perfect to drop 2 Nasty Plots on Blissey's Toxic attempt after breaking your Substitute.

+1 Nasty Plot + Air Slash vs standard Blissey - 22.12% - 26.27%

You can flinch twice with Air Slash and finish with Aura Sphere

+2 Nasty Plot + Air Slash vs standard Blissey - 33.33% - 39.32%

You can flinch twice with Air Slash and finish with Aura Sphere (higher chance)

From that point on, Togekiss is prepared to sweep. I have done this plenty of times with success. Spiritomb is easier to deal with but Rotom can be a pain, Choice Scarf versions. Rest Talk is easily handled by Air Slash flinch. This set's purpose to fully rely on Serene Grace but not too much. Togekiss should not be forgotten as a Stall-breaker, and is one of the few pure special attackers that can beat Stall Teams.

 

[mtr]

Heatran (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 228 HP/30 Spd/252 SAtk
Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Fire Blast
- Metal Sound
- Taunt
- Earth Power
---

Far more stylish and far less obvious than Infernape, though I shamelessly ripped this from the smogon analysis. Send it in on Skarm/Forry/Steel Wall Shit and Fire Blast first, always (as Stathakis said, you don't need to predict when playing stall). It can 2HKO Hippowdon with Modest after SR and you can beat most Blissey with Taunt and Metal Sound, especially as Seismic Toss is going out of style (but even with Seismic Toss, you still win).

The sad thing is I have yet to face one of these, and the anti-offense matchup isn't great. It's almost like an anti-stall gimmick.

I would recommend pairing this up with CB Tyranitar for the Sand Stream boost and to butcher Cresselia, but from what I've heard the skarm/bliss/cress stall craze has largely died out, so it might not be much of a concern. And which stall team doesn't use sand?

 

[Darkerkrai]

Clefable (M) @ Life Orb (Leftovers)
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP/152 Def/104 SAtk
Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Flamethrower (Shadow Ball)
- Focus Blast
- Softboiled
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The fact that Clefable's actually immune to Poison, Stealth Rock and Spikes damage makes it a very nice canidate to beat stall with. Yes, Suicune and Explosions are hard to deal with, but other than that, it's a pretty solid choice to beating stall.

 

[TAY]

Guys I would like to emphasize the fact that this is not the "creative movesets" thread.

 

[reyscarface]

Thanks TAY, also i dont see the reason to use ANY of those sets, weeee they do good against stall, but they suck against everything else, so i cant really see a point in using them.

 

[mtr]

Yeah, but that's sort of the tradeoff you make, right? I mean, LO Gyara has a strong anti-offense matchup, but BulkyGyara is by far better against stall. The logic extends further with Choice Items: Scarfed PorygonZ can be good against aggressive teams, but is crap against stall. Ditto for CB Weavile, Scarftran, and almost everything else.

Regardless, I admit that the Heatran set is pretty much an "anti-stall gimmick". Still if you are using a specially based offensive team, it might see use as a Blissey lure.

Do you think it's worth it to keep one "hate dude" like BulkyGyara who can hate on stall, or that it's probably better to focus on the offensive strategy?

 

[animenagai]

Yeah, but that's sort of the tradeoff you make, right? I mean, LO Gyara has a strong anti-offense matchup, but BulkyGyara is by far better against stall. The logic extends further with Choice Items: Scarfed PorygonZ can be good against aggressive teams, but is crap against stall. Ditto for CB Weavile, Scarftran, and almost everything else.

Regardless, I admit that the Heatran set is pretty much an "anti-stall gimmick". Still if you are using a specially based offensive team, it might see use as a Blissey lure.

Do you think it's worth it to keep one "hate dude" like BulkyGyara who can hate on stall, or that it's probably better to focus on the offensive strategy?

Simply put, you don't need it to be one way or the other. You only run into trouble if your way of beating stall is so minimalist in approach. You need more than one specialized poke to beat stall now. Read what guys like stat and I have said. It is beyond using specific pokes. It's employing a general strategy.

 

[Darkmalice]

a well-built offense team played by a smart player always beats a well-built stall team played by a smart player. ALWAYS. a tremendous amount of hax is needed for stall to beat offense (you don't even have to predict with offense when playing stall, so as long as you don't predict you cant mispredict). the pressure put up by well-built offense teams keeps stall from putting up very many set up hazards, and the whole 'soften and sweep' strategy outlined by animenagai works without fail. so, in a sense, heavy offense is the best counter to heavy stall, since you don't even have to predict at all.

If that is the case, then why are the top teams on the ladder stall teams?

mix teams are ok, but if the opponent is like IPL and carries multiple counters to your sweeper, you're in trouble. a lot of good stall teams carry fast things like latias and scarfrotom (<3 fabs) that can mess with a bunch of sweepers. it's better to have a lot of chances to break through the opponent, to have a lot of win conditions.

I won't disagree with this. Part of the strategy of a mixed team is to wear down the HP of counters to your sweeper, so they can no longer beat your sweeper. Like utilising Spikes so Hippowdon no longer survive +2 Clost Combat. At the same time though, this cannot be completely done. For example, ScarfRotom will always counter Lucario thanksis to its immunity to entry hazards and Extremespeed, assuming it avoids Crunch.

 

[animenagai]

If that is the case, then why are the top teams on the ladder stall teams?

It's already been asked and answered by Stathakis.

the average person doesn't know how to build teams that can beat stall. therefore it is very easy to ladder with stall if you know what you're doing. I know for a fact that IPL uses offense in a lot of tourneys, mainly because stall is not as good against good players as it is against average players. so let me rephrase my sentence. "if you are a good offensive player then you can beat stall teams without dedicating whole team slots to things like mixtar that only work vs. stall"

 

[Revolution.Z]

MixNite is a very viable option because its flying typing (immunity to spikes) AND the fact it has the access to Super Power allowing it to destroy CurseLax and the ever common Bliss on Stall teams. And where is TyraniBoah? Easily one of the best wall breakers in the Game.