How to Beat Stall-Discussion

[Mosh]

People, stop suggesting things that are useless against any other kinda of team ... I agree with Stathakis here, putting a Starmie or a Forry in the middle of your team to have a spinner is stupid because they only work against stall . Dugtrio is even worst, he is terrible against offensive teams, only working as an ok revenge killer and giving 28309189 free turns to the other player.

Having pokemons with the same counters is indeed the best way to beat stall teams, lures and mixed sweepers are ok too

And i love the TTar + Gyarados combo, too bad it is beaten by Vaporeon and Suicune so having anything that can set up agaisnt these 2 is a good idea

 

[Flashstorm1]

From having battled a few stall teams over my battling career, I can definitely attest to their frailty after a key Pokémon on the team has been eliminated. As noted on the opening post, most stall teams dedicate a single slot on their team to counter a single threat, i.e. Celebi countering Gyarados. For this simple reason, it is extremely effective to focus on eliminating that threat (then the whole team is swept), so it's important on finding ways to accomplish this task. One of my own favorite ways has been to use a Pursuiter such as Tyranitar to punish Blissey and Celebi, which form an extremely important core on a stall team. The thing is, Blissey can scout with Protect, so if you have Choice Band, you won't accomplish anything as you will lose to Toxic Spikes residual damage; in such a case, I prefer Leftovers Tyranitar with the same set as a Choice Bander, which allows you to switch between attacks and still hurt Blissey and Celebi badly.

In short, I think the main objective in beating any stall team should be to focus on eliminating a specific threat on the stall team which will allow one of your other Pokémon to sweep. Of course, this goes right in hand with have Stathakis, RaikouLover, and Earthworm have already posted, so I find no need to explain my point further.

 

[LoveDensity]

I agree with Stathakis here, putting a Starmie or a Forry in the middle of your team to have a spinner is stupid because they only work against stall .

Come on.. he didn't say that. He just said he prefers to use Offense Synergy over Rapid Spinning. He also said that someone shouldn't prefer to use two Spinners unless you use it with a Stall Team. I know a particular player that uses two Spinners to success. Why is Rapid Spin also used? To stop their opposing rocks that can otherwise hinder that dang Salamence or Gyarados of yours. Rapid Spin may not necessarily be used in an Offensive team, but it is an option in Balanced teams. It is defintely an option in stall teams with Forrey running around in successful stall or defensive balanced teams. Some teams still prefer to use Rapid Spin because Stealth Rock plays a critical role in almost everyone's strategy. If your "suicide" lead is gone after Stealth Rock and you just got it spun, you just gave yourself a hard time.

 

[Mosh]

Oh I see, I didn't expressed well...

Yeah, sure. Starmie, Forry or any other spinner can work in a balanced or stall team (for the record I am currently using a RS Starmie right now), what i tried to say was that putting them in the middle of your team just to have a spinner is stupid. Wasting one slot of your team to deal with only one kinda of playstile is a big nono. Sure, you can use a spinner to support your team (if you one or more members that don't like SR like Mence and Gyara it's fine to use a spinner) but using anything just to stop stall is not a good idea...At least I wouldn't throw a MixNite randomly on my team for no reason but to own stall

 

[Darkmalice]

People, stop suggesting things that are useless against any other kinda of team ... I agree with Stathakis here, putting a Starmie or a Forry in the middle of your team to have a spinner is stupid because they only work against stall . Dugtrio is even worst, he is terrible against offensive teams, only working as an ok revenge killer and giving 28309189 free turns to the other player.

Having pokemons with the same counters is indeed the best way to beat stall teams, lures and mixed sweepers are ok too

And i love the TTar + Gyarados combo, too bad it is beaten by Vaporeon and Suicune so having anything that can set up agaisnt these 2 is a good idea

I wouldn't necessarily call that stupid. Those spinners can do much more than just spin. Starmie is still viable for countering Gyarados and Infernape, and Forry sets up Spikes, provides a Steel typing for switching into Salamence's Outrage, and has Gyro Ball for this Salamence as well as Pokemon like Gengar.

Calling Dugtrio terrible against offensive teams when it can net an instant OHKO on Tyranitar (and many other Pokemon like Heatran and Infernape) is a pretty bad idea. Yes, Dugtrio may not be able to switch into most attacks. However, Tyranitar using Pursuit will OHKO Pokemon like Latias regardless of what it does. So just let your Latias etc die and let Dugtrio finish off the Pursuiter. And of course, there are other ways to get Dugtrio in safely, like U-turn, an Electric immunity and Double switches (the latter is especially a great method for incoming threats). Dugtrio utilizes the same idea as Pursuit in eliminating specific threats as mentioned in Flashstorm's post.

 

[Stathakis]

dugtrio is bad vs. offensive teams because it is so damn easy to set up on. the last thing you need to be doing is giving gyara/mence free dds and metagross/luke free setup. those things can really rip one in your team. because of that, duggy generally does more harm to you when playing vs. offense than good.

(ps on heavy offense, pursuit is pretty bad too. the only teams that have business running pursuit are the ones that can allow the opponent to set up on them and still live. aka not offense)

 

[Blue Kirby]

I haven't seen a whole lot of attention paid in regards to using entry hazards against your opponent. Specific Pokemon are one thing - but entry hazards are universal in that they help you against every single team you'll come up against. I am currently running a rather successful "bulky offensive" team that just happens to additionally make use of Spikes. You don't need three layers to be a nuisance - if you're staying one step ahead you will find the odd turn to get a layer or two up in addition to Stealth Rock. Staying on the offensive from that point is pretty easy, especially when you're severely punishing each and every one of your opponents' switches without necessarily attacking.

Granted, you can't just slap Skarmory, Forretress or Roserade on a team and hope it'll work - you will need to design your team in such a way that you're able to take advantage of forcing your opponent to switch more, and more importantly, also be able to recover momentum once you've spent time setting up. Offensive players have been blessed with a great move in U-turn that allows them to stay one step ahead of the opponent, but more importantly cause momentum shifts quite easily.

 

[Rurushu]

I wouldn't necessarily call that stupid. Those spinners can do much more than just spin. Starmie is still viable for countering Gyarados and Infernape, and Forry sets up Spikes, provides a Steel typing for switching into Salamence's Outrage, and has Gyro Ball for this Salamence as well as Pokemon like Gengar.

But that is what Mosh said. You should not put a spinner only because you want a spinner, you should put a spinner if the spinner in question fits your team not only as a spinner, but as a pokemon in general.

You should not put a starmie on your team when she clearly don't benefits your team with anything except
rapid spin. But if you have Infernape issues and want a fast special attacker capable of hurting the commom pursuiters while also being capable of supporting the team, starmie will certainly be a effective choice.

And dugtrio is terrible. Heavy offensive teams can't afford to give free turns and bulky teams can't afford to use such a frail pokémon without any defensive capability.

 

[iKitsune]

I haven't seen a whole lot of attention paid in regards to using entry hazards against your opponent. Specific Pokemon are one thing - but entry hazards are universal in that they help you against every single team you'll come up against. I am currently running a rather successful "bulky offensive" team that just happens to additionally make use of Spikes.

I completely agree, Spikes can be an excellent way to whittle down stall. Frosslass can work really well as it can beat common stall leads with taunt and stall will hate destiny bond. Rotom formes are easily the best rapid spinners if well played it will be almost impossible to spin against them. Phazing moves will obviously force members to rack up damage but i find roaring wish a particularly effective tactic in this way members will unlikely be able to heal the appropriate members and with a little luck will faint to spikes.
Conversely an Offensive starmie with rapid spin can scare stall by pounding rotom with hydro pump or surf enabling you to rapid spin removing the entry hazards stall heavily relies on.

 

[Mosh]

Come on, Dugtrio sucks...I can't see me using it unless i am playing with a VERY specific strategy like a trapping team or something like it

And Rurushu already explained (for the 189273189189th time) my point with the rapid spinning.

 

[animenagai]

Come on, Dugtrio sucks...I can't see me using it unless i am playing with a VERY specific strategy like a trapping team or something like it

And Rurushu already explained (for the 189273189189th time) my point with the rapid spinning.

Though I agree with duggy being a liability overall, I think you have to put this more in context. The main talk here is about getting rid of specific counters and proceeding to sweep. Duggy still does that very well with stuff like bliss. I'm just saying that in this context, duggy can still be a great tool.

 

[Flashstorm1]

Though I agree with duggy being a liability overall, I think you have to put this more in context. The main talk here is about getting rid of specific counters and proceeding to sweep. Duggy still does that very well with stuff like bliss. I'm just saying that in this context, duggy can still be a great tool.

Since we're talking mainly about beating Blissey in the general context of the post, I'd rather use Tyranitar over Dugtrio since Tyranitar often contributes more to the team and also has the advantage of at least weakening Celebi into KO range from other Pokémon. In general, Dugtrio shouldn't be used just to beat stall teams either, since any good team should be prepared for any situation it encounters, whether it be stall or heavy offense; and let's face it: Dugtrio sucks against offensive teams.

 

[BLISSEY HATER]

ive been using this heracross as a "celebi killer" and its worked pretty well. gyrados and breloom will have a feild day vs stall once their main counter is eliminated. usually i pursuit first, so if they switch they will recieve a huge chunk of damage. if they stay in they wont know im not choiced and i go for the 1hko via megahorn. a similar strategy can be used against latias and blissey too. the reason i put 252 evs in hp rather then speed is to help take hp fires better. it still outruns most walls so i felt the speed was a waste. i guess you can move them into speed if you want. this heracross isnt completely useless against offensive teams either. abuse its nice resistances to come in and dish out damage. oh and this my first post so i appologise if it doesnt sound right

heracross@expert belt
252hp 252att 4spe adament,guts
close combat
megahorn
pursuit
stone edge

here are some calcs:

pursuit vs 404hp 320def celebi while switching: 41-49%
+1 (guts) pursuit vs 404hp 320def celebi while switching: 61-72%
megahorn vs 404hp 320 def celebi: 183-217%
236spa hp fire vs heracross: 29-35%

 

[animenagai]

Since we're talking mainly about beating Blissey in the general context of the post, I'd rather use Tyranitar over Dugtrio since Tyranitar often contributes more to the team and also has the advantage of at least weakening Celebi into KO range from other Pokémon. In general, Dugtrio shouldn't be used just to beat stall teams either, since any good team should be prepared for any situation it encounters, whether it be stall or heavy offense; and let's face it: Dugtrio sucks against offensive teams.

Yep, Duggy can definitely be a liability against offensive teams. Nothing like being set up on a CB EQ. I do find it has potential though because pursuit is only good for certain pokes, or if they try to switch out. CB tar for example can get destroyed by a wish bliss, and if your whole strategy revolves around that... yeah, not good.

 

[Darkmalice]

I completely agree, Spikes can be an excellent way to whittle down stall. Frosslass can work really well as it can beat common stall leads with taunt and stall will hate destiny bond. Rotom formes are easily the best rapid spinners if well played it will be almost impossible to spin against them. Phazing moves will obviously force members to rack up damage but i find roaring wish a particularly effective tactic in this way members will unlikely be able to heal the appropriate members and with a little luck will faint to spikes.
Conversely an Offensive starmie with rapid spin can scare stall by pounding rotom with hydro pump or surf enabling you to rapid spin removing the entry hazards stall heavily relies on.

Froslass isn't a reliable lead. It fails against too many of the common leads. Metagross has Bullet Punch. Azelf + Aerodactly have a faster Taunt. Tyranitar and Hippowdon's Sandstream will eliminate Froslass' Focus Sash.

Spikes does work well against stall. However, teams that use Spikes are generally stall teams themselves.

Every team has offensive and stall capabilities to some degree. A team with Aerodactly/Infernape/Lucario/Azelf etc can still stall, like by using immunities and resistances. Stall teams do have offensive capbilities; Blissey can Seimsic Toss, Hippowdon can Earthquake etc. It's basically a question of how well a team does offensive, and how well a team does stall. Offensive teams are primarly focused with offense, and vice-versa. A team with relatively equal offensive and stall capabilites would be a mixed team.

Spikes would be a great addition to mixed teams. It sets up Spikes to support its teammates to set up a sweep (Lucario probably being the best Pokemon to benefit from Spikes), and it may have pHazers in the team too.

(ps on heavy offense, pursuit is pretty bad too. the only teams that have business running pursuit are the ones that can allow the opponent to set up on them and still live. aka not offense)

So if Pursuit and Dugtrio work bad on both offensive and stall teams, what teams would they work on? Generally, the teams that need specific threats removed are offensive, like to remove Blissey for Porygon-Z to sweep. They're just not "full out" offensive - they're better at stalling than other offensive teams, and can afford to let Salamence get one DD boost. Pursuiters and Dugtrio would work well on a mixed team, or on a team that's "between" an offensive team and a mixed team.


Would perhaps mixed teams be the best counter for stall teams. They could, for instance, set up Spikes as the Stall team sets up Spikes, have a Rapid Spinner like Rotom-H to prevent the Spikes from going away, but unlike the stall team, have a sweeper like Lucario that loves Spikes support. Now even that dam Hippowdon cannot survive a +2 Close Combat, and Celebi will always be OHKOed by +2 Crunch / Ice Punch.

 

[LoveDensity]

I completely agree, Spikes can be an excellent way to whittle down stall. Frosslass can work really well as it can beat common stall leads with taunt and stall will hate destiny bond.

I agree with DarknessMalice with this one. Utilizing a team with Spikes that can hinder stall if a great way to stop it. I say Smeargle a better Spiker than Froslass (Haha, I just really wanted to say it.) I find that setting up Spikes is very hard if you don't run Stall. Because you spend alot of time trying to set up Spikes, you sometimes lose track of your real goal.

 

[paramylodon]

It only takes a turn to set up one layer, and then everything grounded takes 12.5% (plus another 12.5% if they're sr neutral) which alone can have quite an impact. LO DDmence can now OHKO that swampert with outrage.
Even with just a turn, spikes can make a big impact. You don't necessarily have to devote a lot of time.

 

[LoveDensity]

It only takes a turn to set up one layer, and then everything grounded takes 12.5% (plus another 12.5% if they're sr neutral) which alone can have quite an impact. LO DDmence can now OHKO that swampert with outrage.
Even with just a turn, spikes can make a big impact. You don't necessarily have to devote a lot of time.

What average person wouldn't want to set a extra layer or two? I find myself wanting to set more as well. That is one scenario that could work. Salamence is already a pain wallbreaker to deal with. Usually, that one layer even wouldn't matter to factor an OHKO or 2OHKO. You better force some good switches if you really want Spikes damage to accumlate. There are also some things that just don't mind a layer of Spikes(Offensive teams, Flygon.) I know I don't mind a layer of Spikes. If you play that "mixed" style that DarknessMalice stated like me, I find that one layer of Spikes is not enough. It makes my work harder.

Edit: I also like to add what a waste of a team slot if you dedicate to just one layer of Spikes.. You could have something more offensive than something like Skarm or Forrey that could scare much more. One layer won't cut it vs Stall teams either because Stall teams should have spinners themselves as well to be extremely successful.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Scarf Roserade is fantastic with a Spikes / Grass Knot / Sludge Bomb / (filler, Hidden Power or Rest) set in most metagames, providing solid revenge killing power, Spikes, and an impromptu switchin to Status of any kind. With 125 SpA, it's no offensive slouch, and there's a lot of stuff it can scare off on the standard Stall team, like Bulky Waters (which can't really hit back, as Roserade eats weak Ice Beams with ease), Hippowdon, and stuff that doesn't have fantastic Special Defense and doesn't want to take even neutral hits.

 

[zocho]

since i am a new battler, unfortunately i don't think i have too much to add to the discussion (huge thanks to everyone who contributed their thoughts!), but i would like to ask a question:

what is the best anti-stall lead?

i'm just gonna guess that hippo is the most commonly used stall lead. i have also seen lead blissey, which was weird. also swampert leads (though not necessarily stall) and subseed/spikes leads like jumpluff, smeargle, and roserade.

since i like offensive teams i have used metagross, heatran, and infernape as fairly successful leads, however all of these pokes can't do much to hippo. starmie i would imagine would do well against hippo but star can't get rocks up.

 

[LoveDensity]

since i am a new battler, unfortunately i don't think i have too much to add to the discussion (huge thanks to everyone who contributed their thoughts!), but i would like to ask a question:

what is the best anti-stall lead?

i'm just gonna guess that hippo is the most commonly used stall lead. i have also seen lead blissey, which was weird. also swampert leads (though not necessarily stall) and subseed/spikes leads like jumpluff, smeargle, and roserade.

since i like offensive teams i have used metagross, heatran, and infernape as fairly successful leads, however all of these pokes can't do much to hippo. starmie i would imagine would do well against hippo but star can't get rocks up.

Taunt Azelf, Aerodactyl, Smeargle, Starmie, and Jirachi are some good leads vs Stall. I like Taunt Azelf if you play Offensive

 

[zocho]

thanks for the info. as a relatively inexperienced player i have a lot of trouble with stall, so i'm trying to build a team taking into account the various suggestions in the thread.

question (a la dwight from the office): is ttar a good choice on an offensive team? if i were to have sd ape, latias can come in on either cc or fire punch, outspeed and ko. ttar is a good counter to latias, and can deal with rotom and celebi too. however, earlier stathakis said pursuiters have no place on an offensive team. also cb ttar can be predicted, so flashstorm suggested lefties in place...but wouldn't the absence of choice band lower ttar's attack too much?

and lastly (sorry, i have a lot of questions), the cb ttar smogon set has it running 80 speed to hit 178, one point above 4 speed ev skarmory. however, the standard skarmory set runs 16 speed evs, hitting 180 speed. granted, you don't see rhyperior in standard play that much, so not many people may pay attention to that number. but if ttar doesn't benefit from outspeeding skarmory wouldn't it be better to allocate those speed evs to somewhere else?

hahah as you can see i am quite desperate to beat the tar out of stall...using ttar

 

[iKitsune]

Froslass isn't a reliable lead. It fails against too many of the common leads. Metagross has Bullet Punch. Azelf + Aerodactly have a faster Taunt. Tyranitar and Hippowdon's Sandstream will eliminate Froslass' Focus Sash.


Spikes would be a great addition to mixed teams. It sets up Spikes to support its teammates to set up a sweep (Lucario probably being the best Pokemon to benefit from Spikes), and it may have pHazers in the team too.

Frosslass is a good lead against stall destiny bond scares the shit out of stall. Although as LD set smeargle works well too. Frosslass also acts as a spinn blocker so they cant immediately remove your spikes.

Would perhaps mixed teams be the best counter for stall teams. They could, for instance, set up Spikes as the Stall team sets up Spikes, have a Rapid Spinner like Rotom-H to prevent the Spikes from going away, but unlike the stall team, have a sweeper like Lucario that loves Spikes support. Now even that dam Hippowdon cannot survive a +2 Close Combat, and Celebi will always be OHKOed by +2 Crunch / Ice Punch.

I was thinking about this recently however you get walled by the obligatory Rotom-H. I think the best set in the Game at taking on stall with spikes support would be.

Lucario@Life Orb
Adamant
252Atk/252Spe
Swords Dance
Close Combat
Crunch/Ice Punch~Celebi Gliscor or Rotom-H
Stone Edge~Gyarados

The only thing that kind of walls you is a Latias as you have no Espeed. I would go with crunch in option 3 to rape the more common Rotom-H although A little pursuit would not go amiss in enabling this bad boy to sweep.

 

[zocho]

remember that if you sacrifice jolly for adamant you can be outrun by threats such as +speed rotom, gyarados, and mamoswine

 

[Darkmalice]

What average person wouldn't want to set a extra layer or two? I find myself wanting to set more as well. That is one scenario that could work. Salamence is already a pain wallbreaker to deal with. Usually, that one layer even wouldn't matter to factor an OHKO or 2OHKO. You better force some good switches if you really want Spikes damage to accumlate. There are also some things that just don't mind a layer of Spikes(Offensive teams, Flygon.) I know I don't mind a layer of Spikes. If you play that "mixed" style that DarknessMalice stated like me, I find that one layer of Spikes is not enough. It makes my work harder.

Edit: I also like to add what a waste of a team slot if you dedicate to just one layer of Spikes.. You could have something more offensive than something like Skarm or Forrey that could scare much more. One layer won't cut it vs Stall teams either because Stall teams should have spinners themselves as well to be extremely successful.

I would use Skarmory. It can come in more easily than Forretress thanks to a Ground immunity, so it can set up more layers. Skarmory makes a good counter to the #4 Pokemon in usage (Gyarados), as they frequently lack Taunt. Finally, pHazing is more useful than spinning on a stall team, as pHazing can help inflict damage on your opponent, whilst frail sweepers aren't affected badly by entry hazards (they're going to die anyways). Just make sure you pair up Skarmory with Rotom-H or Scarf Gengar (Gengar needs to outrun Starmie, whilst Rotom-H has the bulk to survive 2 Surfs from the Spinner set).

I find 1 layer is usually enough. It's very difficult to get 3 layers down, and it's not a neccessity. It's very much a luxury, and you may find that it would be better to go on the offensive than sacrifice turns to set up those last 2 layers only to double the damage of the first turn. Salamence can net that OHKO on Swampert etc. Though if you can comfortably manage to get 3 layers down, do so.

Scarf Roserade is fantastic with a Spikes / Grass Knot / Sludge Bomb / (filler, Hidden Power or Rest) set in most metagames, providing solid revenge killing power, Spikes, and an impromptu switchin to Status of any kind. With 125 SpA, it's no offensive slouch, and there's a lot of stuff it can scare off on the standard Stall team, like Bulky Waters (which can't really hit back, as Roserade eats weak Ice Beams with ease), Hippowdon, and stuff that doesn't have fantastic Special Defense and doesn't want to take even neutral hits.

This works well. What really strikes me is that this can be used on offensive teams, and soak up Toxic Spikes for a TSpikes weak team. But why Grass Knot > Leaf Storm? You already have Sludge Bomb if you don't want -2 SpA.

Frosslass is a good lead against stall destiny bond scares the shit out of stall. Although as LD set smeargle works well too. Frosslass also acts as a spinn blocker so they cant immediately remove your spikes.

I was thinking about this recently however you get walled by the obligatory Rotom-H. I think the best set in the Game at taking on stall with spikes support would be.

Lucario@Life Orb
Adamant
252Atk/252Spe
Swords Dance
Close Combat
Crunch/Ice Punch~Celebi Gliscor or Rotom-H
Stone Edge~Gyarados

The only thing that kind of walls you is a Latias as you have no Espeed. I would go with crunch in option 3 to rape the more common Rotom-H although A little pursuit would not go amiss in enabling this bad boy to sweep.

Froslass made a great lead in UU when it was allowed. In OU, it works poorly. It can set up at least one layer of Spikes against Hippowdon leads (and other leads of stall members), and possibly take them down with Destiny Bond whilst stopping them from setting up SR with Taunt. However, I don't consider this being worth losing to the majority of commonly used leads. Metagross, Azelf, Jirachi, Aerodactyl and Tyranitar.

With Lucario, I'd still have Extremespeed over Stone Edge. It has more overall use; it's a god damn terrific move. Pair Lucario up with Starmie or something with Thunderbolt and Surf/Ice Beam and decent Def for Gyarados and Gliscor respectively.