Gallade - Blades of Fury

[LonelyNess]

<reachzero> feel free to post an individual discussion thread for any of the controversial Pokemon right now
<reachzero> if you so desire
<LonelyNess> I do!
<reachzero> the big thread is pretty bulky
<reachzero> okay, then consider this your official mod permission!
<LonelyNess> sweetness

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So this is going to be the official discussion thread of Gallade, since the mammoth thread is getting too big to house discussions of individual Pokemon.

Posts that you might want to read first

Might I suggest that everyone who thinks Gallade is less than stellar take a look at these posts

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpos...&postcount=857
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpos...&postcount=862
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpos...&postcount=864

Literally nothing has changed in UU to hurt Gallade, except that Gallade no longer has to run Stone Edge and can now run Leaf Blade to eliminate Slowbro from the list of potential counters.

Taking a calc from one of those posts...
Quote:
252 HP / 252 Def Bold Slowbro vs. +2 Life Orb Stone Edge...
The outcome doesn't matter... it's the fact that you let him setup. Also, if you don't pack a reliable revenge killer for him then you deserve to lose. And by "packing a counter" it is not like there is only one specific check to knocking out Gallade. You have several options.

And how exactly do you propose you stop a Gallade from setting up? It gets a lot of chances to get a Swords Dance against stuff like Venusaur / Milotic / other weak special attacking walls(who can't do nearly enough damage to stop it from setting up)

Basically what you're saying is "run stall and you lose to Gallade, so don't run stall", and even that's not true, there are plenty of chances for a Swords Dance against an offensive team too, or maybe Gallade can just do an allout attacking set, considering nothing on an offensive team can hope to take a hit from Gallade, in fact most offensive teams -rely- on it trying to set up... and then start crying when it Close Combats out of the gate instead of Swords Dances.

Also can everyone STOP USING REVENGE KILLING AS SOME SORT OF ARGUMENT AGAINST A POKEMON.

Revenge killers exist, but unless they can 100% force the Pokemon to not only stay in, but to also die, they're worthless because I'm just going to switch out. No one is stupid enough to leave their Gallade against your Kangaskahn that switched in to revenge kill, I'm just going to switch to my appropriate Kangaskhan counter... and there is nothing that can revenge kill Gallade that has the ability to threaten the rest of a team sufficiently... in UU there's no Salamence who threatens to slam you with Draco Meteors, or Dragon Danced Outrages, there's no Gyarados who can sweep your team at the drop of a hat, there's only weak ass little Pokemon who can't punish Gallade for switching out against your revenge kill, and that's the biggest reason why Revenge killing is terrible against Gallade; there's no punishability for me just switching out and trying again later, and in order for revenge killing to be a viable form of taking care of something, there needs to be some way to punish me for just switching out (such as you getting to set up something absolutely devestating), and in UU, there simply isn't anything like that for Gallade.

I think it was LN who posted in his nom about the actual revenge killers for Gallade, and how basically 2 of them can switch into one of gallade's non set-up attacks.

Revenge killing isn't a valid argument unless that Pokemon is more threatening than the Pokemon it is forcing out. So saying "I use Spiritomb to stop Gallade" is not only (a) a bunch of bullshit, since Gallade OHKOes Spiritomb with a +2 Stone Edge since Spiritomb can't run much defense because of Froslass, and (b), an invalid argument because Spiritomb doesn't threaten shit.

An example of what you should be suggesting as revenge killers is something like Honchkrow. Staraptor was the perfect example when it was allowed...

Quote:
Basically what you're saying is "run stall and you lose to Gallade, so don't run stall"
When did I imply that? If you are a competent stall player you will make damn sure Gallade or any other top threat has a hard time pulling off a sweep, if he even gets the chance to. Also on a side note, since when is it a requirement for a metagame to be able to run stall teams? As long as it ain't broke then there ain't a problem... I've been seeing a lot of "Gallade almost qualifies for this characteristic," if he doesn't meet the charecteristic head on than HE ISN'T BL WORTHY.

"in UU there's no Salamence"

Nope and if there was anything close to it people would cry and it would be gone in a heart beat.

Quote:
there's no punishability for me just switching out and trying again
Right, because entry hazards are far from common and to difficult to setup and keep up. I see your point. Yes, it goes both ways but lets not fall into that petty arguement.

Quote:
Revenge killing isn't a valid argument unless that Pokemon is more threatening than the Pokemon it is forcing out.
For whatever reason you allowed Gallade to setup here are Pokemon that can effectively outspeed and hit him hard.

Gallade vs...
Swellow: Facade OHKO's
Dugtrio: LO EQ: 79.1% - 93.1%, CB EQ 91.0% - 107.2%
Ambipom: LO Double Hit: 95.4 Min
Raikou: LO T-Bolt: 59.6% - 70.4%, LO Shadow Ball: 67.1% - 79.4%
Scyther: AA: OHKO's
Arcanine: FlareBlitz: 97.8% - 115.9%
Houndoom: LO Fire Blast: 72.6% - 85.6%
Moltress: LO Fire Blast 79.4% - 94.2%
Nidoking: LO Earthquake: 85.9% - 101.8%
Milotic: LO Hydro Pump: 68.2% - 80.5%

I don't know... I think a major problem is that people are unwilling to change/ adapt to metagames. A prime example of this is that people think that stall teams have to be viable otherwise the metagame isn't "stable."

This list is pretty much bs even though it's already an impressively low amount of Pokemon.

Dugtrio: OHKOed by +2 Shadow Sneak. I'm pretty sure we can both agree a Pokemon isn't threatening while fainted + failing to do anything to Gallade at all.

Swellow: Threatening late game, yes, but Rhyperior, Regirock, etc all lol at it. In any case, it isn't more threatening than Gallade itself.

Moltres: Has to KO itself to KO Gallade after a Sneak because of SR. It is definitely not "threatening" when its fainted.

Scyther is actually OHKOed by Sneak after Stealth Rock. Scyther is also stupid easy to switch into even if it wasn't KOed. It does shit all to Pokemon like Rhyperior, Regirock, Steelix...etc. So it's fainted + not threatening, especially when compared to Gallade.

Most Ambipom don't use double hit. If they do, then they probably don't use Low Kick, making them not even remotely threatening (if they were anyway....) to Pokemon like Rhyperior. Not threatening compared to Gallade itself.

Milotic is pretty easy to switch into, and Raikou can set up. In any event, is Milotic more threatening than Gallade? No.

You get the point by now I assume. None of the Pokemon you listed can actually force Gallade out and be more of a threat than Gallade is. Therefore you basically proved revenge killing is an invalid argument.

(If a mod could maybe find those posts and put them in this thread that'd be awesome)
----------------------------------------


Anyway, now that we have some background, I personally think that anyone who isn't incredibly threatened by a Gallade peering down at them, has never had one actually attack out the gate. Because any and all of the checks that most people are employing right now would be utterly destroyed if Gallade were to actually use Close Combat or Stone Edge the first time it chose to show its face.

I think that Choice Band Gallade, or an All-out attacking set would be plenty to put all of these people who are relying on it using Swords Dance initially in their place.

 

[franky]

The biggest dilemma that I have for Gallade users are running both Leaf Blade and Lum Berry on the same set. Both Leaf Blade and Close Combat will get 180 BP on bulky waters. Slowbro, Azumarill, and Milotic are the most popular bulky waters. The only thing you would hit with Leaf Blade is Slowbro, where Night Slash could hit it for 140 BP damage. Night Slash will also hit Weezing, defensive Moltres, and Venusaur for neutral damage. While Leaf Blade can't do anything against any of these Pokemon but Shadow Sneak.

People are running Leaf Blade + Lum Berry combo when you can run Night Slash with Life Orb to get the similar damage output.

Life Orb Night Slash vs. max hp / max def Slowbro - 62.87% - 74.26%
Leaf Blade vs max hp / max def Slowbro - 61.88% - 73.27%

It will do less, and basically, you are wasting Life Orb power over Lum Berry where Slowbro can essentially attack instead of using Thunder Wave to cripple you. If Slowbro decides not to attack, then your missing out on Life Orb damage for the most part. The point is, you keep Life Orb on Gallade over Leaf Blade and your set. Night Slash/Stone Edge should go over Leaf Blade. Night Slash rounds off the coverage nicely hitting so much things that Close Combat can't. Stone Edge is for Moltres and hitting things Leaf Blade can't for 120 BP damage. Leaf Blade is still useful, but not in conjunction with Lum Berry. Running it with Life orb would be the better option. My 2 cents.

 

[LonelyNess]

This is actually really true, is there any time where the Life Orb is absolutely necessary to perform the job that Gallade needs to do?

+2 Night Slash against Slowbro
766 Atk vs 350 Def & 394 HP (75 Base Power): 236 - 278 (59.90% - 70.56%)

Still a 2HKO, and Slowbro isn't doing anywhere near enough damage to kill Gallade, so Thunder Wave is the only thing it could do before, and with Lum Berry it's rendered ineffective.
------------------

Uxie HAS to be faster than Gallade, otherwise it suffers the same fate as Slowbro, so the bulkiest it can be is 252 HP / 120 Def Bold

Uxie uses Twave and finds the Lum Berry

+2 Night Slash
766 Atk vs 358 Def & 354 HP (75 Base Power): 230 - 272 (64.97% - 76.84%)

then a +2 Shadow Sneak
766 Atk vs 358 Def & 354 HP (40 Base Power): 124 - 146 (35.03% - 41.24%)

The combination easily takes out Uxie before it gets a chance to hit with a 2nd Thunder Wave.

Lum Berry also effectively ruins any chance that Spiritomb had of maintaining Gallade via Will-O-Wisp because Night Slash is still a 2HKO even without the Orb.

I can't think of any time where the Orb is necessary to OHKO something. Maybe Donphan? Anyway, I definitely think that Lum Berry should be the new standard. And this means that using a faster Pokemon that can OHKO it is literally the -only- response that you can have to Gallade, because now we know that sending in a slower wall that can status it isn't viable.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

I think I'll make a more substantial response to this thread when I get some free time tomorrow, because, like I have already said in the previous thread, I believe that much of the discussion surrounding the Gallade controversy has been flawed and misdirected. I say this with no disrespect intended towards you specifically LonelyNess.

Anyway, regarding your Uxie comment above, it is simply not necessarily the case that a faster Uxie would need to T-Wave to deal with Gallade (Thunder Wave on a Pokemon heavily EV'd in speed is certainly not my cup of tea anyway). My post in the creative moveset thread is a good example of this in fact:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2278576&postcount=17

It is also one small example of why Life Orb is very important for Gallade's main purpose of reliably breaking through defenses. With Lum Berry, you are sacrificing a lot of guaranteed extra firepower in exchange for assurance against the possibility that the opponent is relying on status to stop your Pokemon, and that is certainly not always going to be the case. This point actually ties in quite nicely with my stance in the 'Unorthodox Items' discussion a while back.

That is all I have time to mention tonight.

 

[A.P.]

Yeah, but the Life Orb isn't too important to ensure the KO.

I'm glad that my idea has become so widespread (lol, I don't even use Gallade).

Honestly, it's been overhyped. So much in UU can beat it. People look at 1v1 situations, and use that as their basis for all calcs and scenarios. Pokémon is a 6-battler effort.

EDIT: How about X-Scissor on Gallade? It still hits all the threats you use with Night Slash with the same amount of effectiveness, and besides, apart from Tomb (who you X-Scissor neutrally anyways), all the other ghosts fall to Shadow Sneak.

 

[BurtonEarny]

I cant agree with the so much in uu can beat it statement. Every time I face it I die a little inside and I even have two checks for it on my team (a stall team). He is such a threat to stall that I have long since stopped using spiritomb as a spin blocker on any spinner not claydol. I'd rather have to set up hazards again/ do without them than to not have a near full hp spiritomb to check gallade. Arcanine is actually a big help in checking gallade as he is still pretty bulky even with enough speed to outrun him, but even then gallade has to have a fair amount of damage on him before flamethrower will finish it off or arcanine has to run flare blitz which is very counterproductive for a physical wall.

 

[Stagnant]

You missed this but w/e.

Well, if Gallade is that much of a problem than people might have to change their standard sets a little... all of my calcs are from +speed Nature Attackers. So a lot of them can go +Attack nature to really hurt Gallade. and Ambipom might be prompted to use Double Hit. This is not a full list of probable checks I skipped over a handful and didn't even look over NU/ NFE Tier.

There is just to much "grey area". Wtf is happening when Gallade is SD'ing? "Depends on who is in." Well hell, why not attack/cripple/phase the dude and move on? Gallade takes any prior damage PLUS LO recoil his viable counter/ check rate shoots up. If he uses Close Combat, his counter rate goes up. I'm sure these are facts that you want to ignore and shove aside.

I agree, Galade is a threat, however he isn't that overwhelming.

 

[BurtonEarny]

I can't think of any time where the Orb is necessary to OHKO something. Maybe Donphan? Anyway, I definitely think that Lum Berry should be the new standard. And this means that using a faster Pokemon that can OHKO it is literally the -only- response that you can have to Gallade, because now we know that sending in a slower wall that can status it isn't viable.

Tangrowth takes an SD close combat w/ lum instead of LO from a jolly gallade.. I just did it and took about 65.

-LO only gives jolly gallade a small chance to OHKO Tangrowth factoring in SR, though I have a hitmontop and no one is running double ghost so that usually isn't even a problem.

-Power whip CAN ko gallade with a fair amount of consistancy, but it is only guaranteed if they have LO or have taken entry hazard damage. Gallade has less of a chance to ko Tangrowth, unless its adamant LO w/ SR down, than tangrowth does to ko it w/ power whip.

-Calcs-
-----------
Gallade attacking Tangrowth-

+2, Jolly, Lum, 252 Atk. Close Combat= 59- 70% (never OHKO's even w/ rocks)

+2, Adamant, Lum, 252 Atk. Close Combat= 65- 77% (never OHKO's even with rocks)

+2, Jolly, LO, 252 Atk. Close Combat= 77- 91% (cant ko w/o rocks, though it has a significantly lower chance to ko than to not ko if rocks are down)

+2, Adamant, LO, 252 Atk. Close Combat= 84- 99% (this is where the substantial chance to ko exists provided sr is down though it wont unless sr is down)

These clacs are largely circumstantial and pretty unreliable if they run LO tbh. Tangrowth has to run power whip to ko it consistently which is bad news for a wall wanting 100% accurate moves and even then its not guaranted (97% min).
Besides arcanine and a healthy spiritomb, I am stumped as to what can take it down reliably...

This goes back to the gallade need not try to sweep the first time he is in a match feelings that I have come in. It would do him some good to throw out some attacks first and then try to set up later if he even needs to at all.

 

[A.P.]

Like I suggested in my last post, X-Scissor may be a good option on Gallade. With this, Gallade can now reliably beat Tangrowth, even if it doesn't SD twice.

Dent it with X-Scissor while it does whatever, then SD for the kill.

To repeat my previous post about the merits of X-Scissor: It still hits all the threats you use with Night Slash with the same amount of effectiveness, and besides, apart from Tomb (who you X-Scissor neutrally anyways), all the other ghosts fall to Shadow Sneak.

EDIT: And besides, if you play Gallade well, you're going to want a team that weakens all of his counters first.

 

[Dark Ace]

Same as BurtonEarny here. As long as I have at least one layer of toxic spikes, even chansey can check Gallade. Stall isn't that hard as you think. In fact I think that offence is harder to pull, because with the number of offensive teams out there gaining the momentum is essential, in order to set up, sweep ect.

I don't say that stall is the best. In fact I am a an offensive-minded player. I just have made a stall team that is played just like offence; I still need to predict, but my main weapon is Toxic Spikes. As long as I have ts I am pretty munch the winner (around 96% of my wins are when I have ts up).

 

[A.P.]

Venusaur is so common that Toxic Spikes usually are rendered obsolete.

 

[Dark Ace]

Venusaur is so common that Toxic Spikes usually are rendered obsolete.

True.
Venusaur is in fact my biggest weakness but it can be played around. When making the team I tried to find a way to solve this problem but anything I tried was ruining my teams porpuse.

 

[BurtonEarny]

Same as BurtonEarny here. As long as I have at least one layer of toxic spikes, even chansey can check Gallade. Stall isn't that hard as you think. In fact I think that offence is harder to pull, because with the number of offensive teams out there gaining the momentum is essential, in order to set up, sweep ect.

I don't say that stall is the best. In fact I am a an offensive-minded player. I just have made a stall team that is played just like offence; I still need to predict, but my main weapon is Toxic Spikes. As long as I have ts I am pretty munch the winner (around 96% of my wins are when I have ts up).

I never once said gallade was easy to handle at all, I just noted that lum may not be the best itm for it. chansey... checking gallade is not going to happen. In fact it is incredibly hard for stall to check it. even with checks it cant easily sweep a stall team. Toxic spikes helps and I think it is almost needed now to help reduce turns offense has to do stuff, but stall is fighting an uphill battle in this metagame. Before it could be broken and was never as solid as people give it credit for, but beating it required some thought and skill... now its much much much easier to do.

About venu. Venusaur is easy to play around and force into a match and it isn't all that hard to remove with a stall team. Toxic spikes means venu HAS to come in and frankly forcing it to take spikes and SR damage plus a burn status is going to wear it out eventually. If a venusaur keeps being forced into a match then the offensive team isn't going to accomplish much. They are MUCH more of a threat to offense than they used to be, and I think that stall should really start running them more often.

 

[Rolf]

I'm using a Gallade on my Exasperation - UU team, and it's working wonders with access to Confuse Ray and T-Wave if you need it. Currently I'm running this set. Keep in mind I have EXTENSIVE paralysis support on the rest of my team.

Gallade@Leftovers
252HP/252SpD/4Def - Adamant
~Confuse Ray
~Substitute
~Focus Punch
~Fire Punch

I run Fire Punch because EQ leaves me helpless vs levitating ghosts and Zen Headbutt leaves me helpless vs Spiritomb.

With paraflinch, this thing causes serious problems. Bring it in on any special attacker (The EVs even allow it to not be 2HKOd by Espeon's Psychic iirc) and feel free to confuse them and set up subs.

It's really a great pokemon.

 

[d2m]

One would have to be stupid to say that Gallade isn't a great wallbreaker and all around offensive powerhouse, but there are quite a few checks to Gallade that go unmentioned and I'd like to point a few out:

SD Leafeon - It outspeeds Gallade and OHKOs with a LO X-Scissor while taking pathetic (18.82% - 22.14%) damage from a +2 Shadow Sneak. It's also a great sweeper in it's own right, being able to set up on weaker physical attackers (like Defensive Regirock) and sweeping with it's impressive base speed and STAB Leaf Blade. With Roserade leaving the tier, Leafeon lost one of it's best checks and seeing as it acts as a check to Gallade, I'm surprised it isn't used more. Not to mention the fact you can run SD/Leaf Blade/X-Scissor/Baton Pass and BP to another dangerous physical sweeper (like Hitmonlee on a predicted T-wave or Arcanine on a predicted WoW) and destroy teams.

Tauros - CB Tauros is a huge threat in the meta. If you lose your ghost/Rhyperior/Regirock, a Tauros spamming Return is going to decimate your team. He easily outspeeds Gallade, is immune to Shadow Sneak, and can handily OHKO him with a STAB Return (or Frustration I guess). Intimidate means Tauros can come in easily on weaker physical attacks and any ghost type move, and he's a speedy Pursuit user as well.

Dodrio - 110 Base attack backed up by 100 Base speed is nothing to snease at, I used him as a lead a while back and he works great as a baton passer, speedy taunt, and now as a Gallade check. Immune to SS and easily outspeeds and OHKOs with Brave Bird or Drill Peck (possibly Return, I didn't run calcs). Another good pursuiter.

CB Slaking - With any sort of prediction, this guy will utterly punch holes in any team. He also has the ability to easily outspeed Gallade and OHKO with pretty much any move thanks to his enormous attack. Since Gallade is usually an end-game sweeper, it's highly doubtful that a Gallade user could set something else up on the Truant switch. It's not a great counter, but it acts as a check and wallbreaker with team support.

Pinsir - Base 125 attack, Base 100 def, STAB Base 80 SE attack on Gallade along with outspeeding him means he's an excellent counter. Scarf Pinsir actually makes a great Revenge killer while CB makes a decent wallbreaker, not to mention his own SD/LO set.

Now, obviously, this is a list of pokes that can force him out as he SDs, they'll almost all be in real trouble if he decides to attack, but that would require perfect prediction, if you predict the attack switch to whoever can take the attack (ie CC and your ghost), plus Gallade-users are much more likely to SD on something that doesn't threaten them because the power behind a +2 Gallade is great (although not as IMPOSSIBLE TO STOP as many people are making it out to be).

 

[BurtonEarny]

gallade should NEVER SD the first time it is in the match unless it knows it is going to be sweeping the opponents team/ crippling it beyond hope for the opponent. That severely cuts the number of offensive checks to nearly nothing and its not hard to weaken the defensive checks to gallade simply by attacking them repeatedly and forcing them out with the help of team mates.

 

[Bluewind]

SD Leafeon - It outspeeds Gallade and OHKOs with a LO X-Scissor while taking pathetic (18.82% - 22.14%) damage from a +2 Shadow Sneak. It's also a great sweeper in it's own right, being able to set up on weaker physical attackers (like Defensive Regirock) and sweeping with it's impressive base speed and STAB Leaf Blade. With Roserade leaving the tier, Leafeon lost one of it's best checks and seeing as it acts as a check to Gallade, I'm surprised it isn't used more. Not to mention the fact you can run SD/Leaf Blade/X-Scissor/Baton Pass and BP to another dangerous physical sweeper (like Hitmonlee on a predicted T-wave or Arcanine on a predicted WoW) and destroy teams.

Just a nitpick: Gallade is part Fighting, so bug deals neutral damage to it, meaning Leaf Blade is still the best option to deal damage to it (not sure if it KOes anyway because I haven't ran the calcs, but I thought was important pointing that fact out).

 

[d2m]

Just a nitpick: Gallade is part Fighting, so bug deals neutral damage to it, meaning Leaf Blade is still the best option to deal damage to it (not sure if it KOes anyway because I haven't ran the calcs, but I thought was important poiting that fact out).

It stands a good chance to OHKO with SR on the field. I did forget that one.

BnE: Like I said, it falls down to prediction, if Gallade attacks and predicts incorrectly, its attack does nothing or is sponged effectively and it gets hit by LO recoil and another round of SR damage as it's forced out, meaning it comes in at lower health and in range of Honchkrow's SP or many other KOs. If it SDs, you have plenty of offensive counters that I just mentioned.

 

[BurtonEarny]

It stands a good chance to OHKO with SR on the field. I did forget that one.

BnE: Like I said, it falls down to prediction, if Gallade attacks and predicts incorrectly, its attack does nothing or is sponged effectively and it gets hit by LO recoil and another round of SR damage as it's forced out, meaning it comes in at lower health and in range of Honchkrow's SP or many other KOs. If it SDs, you have plenty of offensive counters that I just mentioned.

If it faces honchkrow, then it is not facing a stall team which is where the problem area is...

 

[Heysup]

It stands a good chance to OHKO with SR on the field. I did forget that one.

BnE: Like I said, it falls down to prediction, if Gallade attacks and predicts incorrectly, its attack does nothing or is sponged effectively and it gets hit by LO recoil and another round of SR damage as it's forced out, meaning it comes in at lower health and in range of Honchkrow's SP or many other KOs. If it SDs, you have plenty of offensive counters that I just mentioned.

Firstly, Gallade has zero offensive counters. None of them can switch in on any attack and threaten Gallade. What you listed are checks, and pretty terrible ones at that. This leads me to the next point...

I can't stress enough that revenge killing is not a valid argument unless the Pokemon revenge killing is more threatening than the Pokemon that's getting revenge killed. The Pokemon you just listed have stupid amounts of offensive and defensive counters, they are not anywhere near as threatening as Gallade is. When you start listing shit like Dodrio, and the ultimate set up bait, Slaking, that's when you know you are getting desperate for an argument.

Also, saying something's a counter "if" they use one specific move isn't a valid argument for them being a counter either.

 

[A.P.]

Love how he completely forgets things like Swellow and Kangaskhan, both who are far more common.

But you're right, revenge killing isn't a solid option.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

With Roserade leaving the tier, Leafeon lost one of it's best checks and seeing as it acts as a check to Gallade, I'm surprised it isn't used more.

Really? Unless you mean Scarf versions, and in that case a lot of things with Scarf can check Leafeon, not just Roserade. Besides, Scarf was most certainly not one of Rosie's most common sets. Venusaur is a much better check given that it can actually take a +2 hit, as is Sceptile given its ability to outrun without a Scarf. So the departure of Roserade, if anything, has hindered Leafeon because it has led to the popularization of Grass types that can more realistically check it.

With regards to Gallade though, Leafeon, alongside Arcanine, has the right kind of attributes to serve as an effective Gallade check, as they can outspeed and OHKO whilst at the same time not get instantly killed on a misprediction.

But the very fact that people are seeing the need to mention offensive checks to Gallade as a defense seems ridiculous on its face. Why? Because for offensive teams, SD Gallade is nothing more than another potentially hard-hitting obstacle who lacks the attributes to even get so much as a look in, never mind a chance to set up. He is looked at no differently to the vast majority of other Pokemon of similar speed and bulk, just something else to keep ramming at, and certainly not a cause for panic. If an offensive team happens to have a particular problem with SD Gallade, then it is a very badly made team, plain and simple.

Point being that offensive teams just laugh at SD Gallade, or simply don't care. He might if lucky nab a kill whilst getting severely bruised, but that is par for the course on such teams. It is his effect on defensive teams that is relevant towards him being a suspect, nothing else. So unfortunately, discussing offensive checks with respect to the discussion on Gallade's tier status is in fact not applicable, but only because the initial argument that supposedly warranted such a response should not have been considered an argument in the first place. But like I have said before, I do not blame LonelyNess in particular for this, it is just a general fallacy that has somehow prospered for such a long time.

EDIT: perhaps I should address another dubious issue that has been brought up again:

I can't stress enough that revenge killing is not a valid argument unless the Pokemon revenge killing is more threatening than the Pokemon that's getting revenge killed. The Pokemon you just listed have stupid amounts of offensive and defensive counters, they are not anywhere near as threatening as Gallade is. When you start listing shit like Dodrio, and the ultimate set up bait, Slaking, that's when you know you are getting desperate for an argument.

Now I certainly agree with the notion that revenge-killing is not in itself an argument that can realistically be used against a potential BL Pokemon. However, in the case of Gallade, the fact that such Pokemon are so numerous and commonplace in the metagame means that it is difficult to justify Gallade’s status purely under the offensive characteristic, which states that a Pokemon must be able to sweep easily under common conditions.

In all fairness, I firmly believe that some people arguing for Gallade’s brokenness (I am referring in particular to LonelyNess here) have had much of the right intentions all along, they have just constructed their arguments in a misguided fashion and in a false context. If we look at LonelyNess’ first quoted post from way back when, we can see the ’foundation’ of a good argument against Gallade, particularly when the focus is on assessing the difficulty in reliably stopping Gallade from managing at least one kill. But the whole argument lost a lot of credibility due to the fact that it was clearly intended to show Gallade’s ability to easily ‘sweep’, and therefore fulfil the offensive characteristic, which is the main thing that aggravated me, and probably many others. This is because it is clear to me and others that Gallade simply isn’t this kind of Pokemon, and therefore it is hard to take seriously an argument that is operating under the assumption that he is. In addition, there is a failure to address the fact that offensive teams do not care much for the threat of a SD Gallade any more than, well, anything really, and therefore the mention of fast offensive threats is of lmited relevance.

As for the idea that a Pokemon has to be ‘more threatening’ than Gallade to revenge-kill it, where did that come from? Clearly if a Pokemon is more threatening than a suspect, then that Pokemon is probably more suspect worthy than the Pokemon in question. The argument can be reworded as “The only viable revenge-killers to this broken Pokemon are even more broken Pokemon”, and by that logic the most threatening Pokemon of any tier will always be broken. No need for me to explain why such an argument is both irrelevant and downright ridiculous.

 

[A.P.]

Has anyone taken my proposal of X-Scissor into account?

On the main subject, I fully agree with Lemmiwinks' post, as he basically sums up what we've been dancing around all along. Gallade is not threatening because it cannot sweep a full team, usually. When I face it, it struggles to take out even one Pokémon, most of the time, despite the fact I haven't even seriously prepared for it.

 

[Heysup]

Really? Unless you mean Scarf versions, and in that case a lot of things with Scarf can check Leafeon, not just Roserade. Besides, Scarf was most certainly not one of Rosie's most common sets. Venusaur is a much better check given that it can actually take a +2 hit, as is Sceptile given its ability to outrun without a Scarf. So the departure of Roserade, if anything, has hindered Leafeon because it has led to the popularization of Grass types that can more realistically check it.

With regards to Gallade though, Leafeon, alongside Arcanine, has the right kind of attributes to serve as an effective Gallade check, as they can outspeed and OHKO whilst at the same time not get instantly killed on a misprediction.

But the very fact that people are seeing the need to mention offensive checks to Gallade as a defense seems ridiculous on its face. Why? Because for offensive teams, SD Gallade is nothing more than another potentially hard-hitting obstacle who lacks the attributes to even get so much as a look in, never mind a chance to set up. He is looked at no differently to the vast majority of other Pokemon of similar speed and bulk, just something else to keep ramming at, and certainly not a cause for panic. If an offensive team happens to have a particular problem with SD Gallade, then it is a very badly made team, plain and simple.

Point being that offensive teams just laugh at SD Gallade, or simply don't care. He might if lucky nab a kill whilst getting severely bruised, but that is par for the course on such teams. It is his effect on defensive teams that is relevant towards him being a suspect, nothing else. So unfortunately, discussing offensive checks with respect to the discussion on Gallade's tier status is in fact not applicable, but only because the initial argument that supposedly warranted such a response should not have been considered an argument in the first place. But like I have said before, I do not blame LonelyNess in particular for this, it is just a general fallacy that has somehow prospered for such a long time.

This is because people who are arguing against Gallade can't come up with defensive checks! Honestly, is there any other reason that like 1-2 defensive Gallade checks have been brought up?

EDIT: perhaps I should address another dubious issue that has been brought up again:

Now I certainly agree with the notion that revenge-killing is not in itself an argument that can realistically be used against a potential BL Pokemon. However, in the case of Gallade, the fact that such Pokemon are so numerous and commonplace in the metagame means that it is difficult to justify Gallade’s status purely under the offensive characteristic, which states that a Pokemon must be able to sweep easily under common conditions.

In all fairness, I firmly believe that some people arguing for Gallade’s brokenness (I am referring in particular to LonelyNess here) have had much of the right intentions all along, they have just constructed their arguments in a misguided fashion and in a false context. If we look at LonelyNess’ first quoted post from way back when, we can see the ’foundation’ of a good argument against Gallade, particularly when the focus is on assessing the difficulty in reliably stopping Gallade from managing at least one kill. But the whole argument lost a lot of credibility due to the fact that it was clearly intended to show Gallade’s ability to easily ‘sweep’, and therefore fulfil the offensive characteristic, which is the main thing that aggravated me, and probably many others. This is because it is clear to me and others that Gallade simply isn’t this kind of Pokemon, and therefore it is hard to take seriously an argument that is operating under the assumption that he is. In addition, there is a failure to address the fact that offensive teams do not care much for the threat of a SD Gallade any more than, well, anything really, and therefore the mention of fast offensive threats is of lmited relevance.

You are really underestimating Gallade versus offensive teams. There are many Pokemon on offensive teams that Gallade forces out that it either (a) outspeeds (like Honchkrow or Rhyperior (with Spikes) that we've all been talking about) or (b) survives a hit from (Froslass, Milotic off the top of my head). This is mainly Pokemon that rely on special attacks or whatnot to sweep, but I can't think of many off the top of my head and I need to leave in a few.

As for the idea that a Pokemon has to be ‘more threatening’ than Gallade to revenge-kill it, where did that come from? Clearly if a Pokemon is more threatening than a suspect, then that Pokemon is probably more suspect worthy than the Pokemon in question. The argument can be reworded as “The only viable revenge-killers to this broken Pokemon are even more broken Pokemon”, and by that logic the most threatening Pokemon of any tier will always be broken. No need for me to explain why such an argument is both irrelevant and downright ridiculous.

If you look at it logically, it makes perfect sense. Think about it; if Pokemon X is forced out by Pokemon Y, and Pokemon Y isn't threatening, then Pokemon X can just switch to Pokemon Z who walls the shit out of Pokemon Y. Pokemon Z is obviously now in a great position, because Pokemon Z is more threatening than Pokemon Y and can do a ton of damage to the opponent. All that needs to happen is for Pokemon X to come back in and keep doing this until the battler sacrifices Pokemon Y or basically loses all of his Pokemon. If he sacrifices Pokemon Y, then Pokemon X sweeps with ease.

If Pokemon X is forced out by Pokemon A, who is very threatening, then he can put a huge hole in the battler using Pokemon X's team.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

This is because people who are arguing against Gallade can't come up with defensive checks! Honestly, is there any other reason that like 1-2 defensive Gallade checks have been brought up?

No, but it doesn't exclude the fact that the whole related discussion is irrelevant.

You are really underestimating Gallade versus offensive teams. There are many Pokemon on offensive teams that Gallade forces out that it either (a) outspeeds (like Honchkrow or Rhyperior (with Spikes) that we've all been talking about) or (b) survives a hit from (Froslass, Milotic off the top of my head). This is mainly Pokemon that rely on special attacks or whatnot to sweep, but I can't think of many off the top of my head and I need to leave in a few.

Really, this whole paragraph is full of nonsense. Gallade does not force out Honchkrow in any way at all, whatsoever. Rhyperior either has a Rock Polish up already by the time Gallade comes in, or something has had to be sacrificed to allow him in. Milotic outspeeds and does a ton of damage with Hydro Pump, or is a bulkier variant and survives an attack first. Hell, even Froslass (offensive Froslass? Really?) can hit hard with Shadow Ball before dying, as Shadow Sneak really is pathetically weak before boosts.

More importantly though, I am certainly not underestimating anything. I am definitely speaking from experience here. Balanced-to-offensive teams are my preferred play style; absolutely zero problems with Gallade on any of them.

I don't care at all for what 'bad' players do.

If you look at it logically, it makes perfect sense. Think about it; if Pokemon X is forced out by Pokemon Y, and Pokemon Y isn't threatening, then Pokemon X can just switch to Pokemon Z who walls the shit out of Pokemon Y. Pokemon Z is obviously now in a great position, because Pokemon Z is more threatening than Pokemon Y and can do a ton of damage to the opponent. All that needs to happen is for Pokemon X to come back in and keep doing this until the battler sacrifices Pokemon Y or basically loses all of its Pokemon.

If Pokemon X is forced out by Pokemon A, who is very threatening, then he can put a huge hole in the battler using Pokemon X's team.

It is a shame then that your argument isn't logically relevant to the issue at all, it is just a bunch of Pokemon-beats-Pokemon-with-move nonsense that can generally apply for anything. It says nothing about Gallade's particular qualities. As far as i am concerned, the only teams that Gallade can genuinely threaten are those that don't rely on the concept of revenge-killing at all anyway.

And I will say it again. I don't care at all for what 'bad' players do, and neither should you.