From Untiereds to Ubers

[Scoopapa]

Sunflora
Type: Grass / Electric
Ability: Drought
Stats: 80 / 60 / 100 / 150 / 110 / 100
Movepool: Thunder, Thunderbolt, Volt Switch,
Reasoning: I thought Cherrim might need a viable Drought-using friend to help it stay in sunshine forme. Base Groudon is not all that popular in Ubers, and Cherrim's chances pretty much live or die on the ability to keep sun going. Sunflora has plenty of speed and power to keep things moving with Solar Beam and Volt Switch, meaning it shouldn't invite the primals to come easily undo its weather. This is probably about as good a fighting chance as regular weather is going to get in Ubers.

Regigigas
Type: Normal
Ability: Slow Start
Stats: 110 / 160 / 110 / 80 / 110 / 100 | 670 BST
Movepool: Heave, Protect, Rest,
Heave - Normal Type | 10-16 PP | Raises the users's Atk, Def, and Spe by one stage and takes a turn off of the user's Slow Start timer. Z-Effect: Slow Start ends.
Reasoning: A bit of a physical Xerneas, if using a Z Crystal; otherwise just a bulky wincon that's really scary once setup but somewhat abuseable while it's trying to get going. You could split the difference and save your Normalium-Z for a Breakneck Blitz, too, if you think you can stall the timer out with Heave -> Protect -> Heave

 

[War Incarnate]

Pokémon: Zangoose
Typing: Normal / Fighting
Abilities: Adaptability / Intimidate / Tough Claws
Stats: 80 / 150 / 80 / 60 / 80 / 120 (600 BST)
New Moves: Earthquake, Extreme Speed, Gunk Shot, Focused Swipe
Custom Move Information (if applicable): Fighting-type, Physical, 90 BP, 100% Acc, 10 PP (max: 16)
Custom Move Description (what effects it has): 30% chance to lower the target's highest defensive stat.
Competitive (niche in Ubers): Zangoose finds a safe spot amongst the hostile environment that is known as Ubers as a fast physically-based glass cannon given its decent STAB combo, great physical attack stat, and fantastic coverage moves. Its vast pool of coverage moves lets it dispose of other threats, such as Xerneas, Marshadow, Arceus, and Mega Salamence. At the same time, Zangoose's new signature move, Focused Swipe, has a chance to lower the opponent's highest defensive stat, letting it screw around with physical tanks such as Solrock and Relicanth. However, Zangoose's bulk is average at best, leaving it prone to being overwhelmed by stronger and faster pokemon such as Marshadow and Simisage; this also means that if Zangoose fails to KO a foe, it risks getting KOed or heavily weakened in return, making it reliant on Focused Swipe's stat drops and significant hazard-stacking, making it hard to fit on a team.

Pokémon: Beautifly
Typing: Bug / Flying
Abilities: Tinted Lens / No Guard / Flutter
Custom Ability Description (if applicable): Pokemon with this ability become immune to damage from Stealth Rock and Spikes, and will not be poisoned by Toxic Spikes or paralyzed by Static Signal.
Stats: 80 / 60 / 80 / 145 / 110 / 125 (600 BST)
New Moves: Air Slash, Hurricane, Dark Pulse, Focus Blast, Strength Sap, Sludge Bomb, Heat Wave, Sleep Powder
Competitive (niche in Ubers): Beautifly finds a niche in Ubers as a fast Quiver Dance sweeper that also has usefulness outside of boosting via Quiver Dance. Its typing of Bug / Flying remains, but it actually gains Flying-type STAB in Air Slash and Hurricane, letting it hit foes such as Marshadow. While its bulk is not the best, especially its physical defense, its special defense is decent enough to set up on special attackers such as Xerneas, while its much-improved special attack stat lets it dish out immense damage to foes which do not resist its coverage once it is at +1. Speaking of those resistances, Beautifly is now equipped with two fantastic abilities in Tinted Lens and Flutter, with the former letting it hit the entire tier for neutral damage, which can come in handy against foes which would otherwise wall it, such as Dusk Mane Necrozma, while the latter makes it easier to switch it in, so that Beautifly doesn't get half of its max HP stripped by Stealth Rocks, reducing the amount of support it truly needs to shine.

Unfortunately, Beautifly's subpar physical bulk leaves it hard-pressed to find setup opporunities against foes such as Primal Groudon, while slower threats such as Marshadow and Yveltal threaten to dispatch of it with Shadow Sneak and Sucker Punch, respectively. In addition to this, its typing provides no defensive utility, leaving it massively crippled if it switches in while Stealth Rock is active, although Flutter remedies this issue to an extent. Lastly, it faces some competition as a Quiver Dance sweeper from Butterfree, which is bulkier, not as weak to Stealth Rock, and is actually immune to priority thanks to Psychic Terrain, although Beautifly's higher raw power and better speed tier give it a niche over Butterfree.

 

[Jerry the great]

Ah new submissions eh. Sure thing! Again, if you notice anything too op or this isn't strong enough, or if what I intended for it to be bad against, let me know.
Now, look at this poor thing. Weakest of all the fully evolved starters. Well, let's give it the treatment it deserves! We shall make it better than the rest!
Pokemon: Meganium
Type: Grass
Abilities: Overgrow/Leaf Guard/Happy day (HA)
Custom ability description: This Pokémon causes the opposing Pokemon to be so happy, it makes their attack lowered by one stage. Intimidate clone
Stats: 120/60/90/110/120/100/600 BST
New moves: Happy Hour
Competitive niche: A great Z happy hour sweeper. I mean that move fits it anyways because of how happy it is. Anyways... Yeah though. Great bulk, decent special attack, and good enough speed to set up on certain threats. You can boost those stats to even higher heights. It'd do awesome vs Primal Kyogre as it'd KO (or nearly KO) it with stab, and it can switch into it because the bulk. And as long as you can chip down some of Primal Groudon's HP before it comes in on it, or it has no fire moves for whatever reason, it'll do amazing vs it. Now you might be thinking: Woah there cowboy! Already amazing stats, boosted to even higher heights?! Are you insane?! My response is, those amazing stats boosted even higher from happy hour does have things it has to deal with. Grass is a horrible typing in ubers, unless you were dealing with Primal Kyogre. Reason being is that there are many flying types. Pokemon like Lugia could take a hit then phase it away, Yveltal can spam oblivion wing to do massive damage and heal any damage it may have taken, Rayquaza spams dragon dance like no tomorrow, Mega Salamence also does that, and Ho-Oh can dual resist it's stab. Not just flying types either, as Dusk Mane Solgaleo is blessed to be in vs this thing as it sets up like no tomorrow, then can turn into Ultra Necrozma, or isn't that variant but uhh good luck taking out that thing. You may think: Woah! Isn't that too harsh? Well lemme tell you, hidden power can take care of a majority of them. Want to take down Ho-Oh easily? HP rock. Mega Salemence and Rayquaza? HP Ice. Yveltal? Well I suppose if you was to have it poisoned with toxic and spam synthesis you can ruin it enough for other members to smack it. However no matter what, you will struggle with Dusk Mane Necrozma and Lugia. So generally, it has great stats boosted to even higher heights, good way to recover, and takes on the primals pretty well, but gets balanced out by not having much coverage at all outside of HP to beat certain things that would otherwise smash it, bad typing for ubers, and is set up bait for certain Pokemon.

 

[Champion Leon]

Pokémon: Zangoose
Typing: Normal / Fighting
Abilities: Adaptability / Intimidate / Tough Claws
Stats: 80 / 150 / 80 / 60 / 80 / 120 (600 BST)
New Moves: Earthquake, Extreme Speed, Gunk Shot, Focused Swipe
Custom Move Information (if applicable): Fighting-type, Physical, 90 BP, 100% Acc, 10 PP (max: 16)
Custom Move Description (what effects it has): 30% chance to lower the target's highest defensive stat.
Competitive (niche in Ubers): Zangoose finds a safe spot amongst the hostile environment that is known as Ubers as a fast physically-based glass cannon given its decent STAB combo, great physical attack stat, and fantastic coverage moves. Its vast pool of coverage moves lets it dispose of other threats, such as Xerneas, Marshadow, Arceus, and Mega Salamence. At the same time, Zangoose's new signature move, Focused Swipe, has a chance to lower the opponent's highest defensive stat, letting it screw around with physical tanks such as Solrock and Relicanth. However, Zangoose's bulk is average at best, leaving it prone to being overwhelmed by stronger and faster pokemon such as Marshadow and Simisage; this also means that if Zangoose fails to KO a foe, it risks getting KOed or heavily weakened in return, making it reliant on Focused Swipe's stat drops and significant hazard-stacking, making it hard to fit on a team.

Pokémon: Beautifly
Typing: Bug / Flying
Abilities: Tinted Lens / No Guard / Flutter
Custom Ability Description (if applicable): Pokemon with this ability become immune to damage from Stealth Rock and Spikes, and will not be poisoned by Toxic Spikes or paralyzed by Static Signal.
Stats: 80 / 60 / 80 / 145 / 110 / 125 (600 BST)
New Moves: Air Slash, Hurricane, Dark Pulse, Energy Ball, Focus Blast, Strength Sap, Sludge Bomb, Heat Wave, Sleep Powder
Competitive (niche in Ubers): Beautifly finds a niche in Ubers as a fast Quiver Dance sweeper that also has usefulness outside of boosting via Quiver Dance. Its typing of Bug / Flying remains, but it actually gains Flying-type STAB in Air Slash and Hurricane, letting it hit foes such as Marshadow. While its bulk is not the best, especially its physical defense, its special defense is decent enough to set up on special attackers such as Xerneas, while its much-improved special attack stat lets it dish out immense damage to foes which do not resist its coverage once it is at +1. Speaking of those resistances, Beautifly is now equipped with two fantastic abilities in Tinted Lens and Flutter, with the former letting it hit the entire tier for neutral damage, which can come in handy against foes which would otherwise wall it, such as Dusk Mane Necrozma, while the latter makes it easier to switch it in, so that Beautifly doesn't get half of its max HP stripped by Stealth Rocks, reducing the amount of support it truly needs to shine.

Unfortunately, Beautifly's subpar physical bulk leaves it hard-pressed to find setup opporunities against foes such as Primal Groudon, while slower threats such as Marshadow and Yveltal threaten to dispatch of it with Shadow Sneak and Sucker Punch, respectively, while its average special defense means that foes such as Mega Gengar and a boosted Xerneas can muscle through Beautifly's special bulk, adding insult to the injury. In addition to this, its typing provides no defensive utility, leaving it massively crippled if it switches in while Stealth Rock is active, although Flutter remedies this issue to an extent. Lastly, it faces some competition as a Quiver Dance sweeper from Butterfree, which is bulkier, not as weak to Stealth Rock, and is actually immune to priority thanks to Psychic Terrain, although Beautifly's higher raw power and better speed tier give it a niche over Butterfree.

Don’t forget Sticky Web for Flutter, unless it was intentionally left out.

I see. I didn’t realize this. Probably going to delete them tbh.

Don't feel bad, you could just give them a new Ability that’s fair.

For example, if you gave Slaking a new Ability like...
“Lazy: User gets -6 Speed when it switches in”, that would make it a lot less broken without preventing it from hitting hard. After all, we have things like Kyurem-W, and that has even higher stats offensively, and comparable bulk. The difference is a vastly limited move pool, and many more weaknesses.

By dividing its Speed by 4, this would allow more justification for it not being overpowered, and allow it to still attack.

Plus, this is not even considering the fact you can change their stats, and typing, add a new item, add a new Z-Crystal, etc.

Don’t feel embarrassed, just find a way to ensure they don’t feel like they gain without losing, and that they don’t lose without gain, at least for Slaking- so it isn’t too bad/good.
——————
Stunfisk


Similar to Rotom-Fan, Stunfisk gets an immunity to something it is already immune to (it’s Ability Limber prevents Paralysis, while it’s Electric-typing makes it immune to Paralysis anyways).

Pokémon: Stunfisk
Typing: Ground / Electric
Abilities: Sandstream / Storm Drain / Tough Hide
Custom ability description: Tough Hide - If the user is Stunfisk, all Attacks that make Contact deal 25% less damage and lose their secondary effects. (Species specific).
Stats: 105 / 70 / 105 / 110 / 105 / 40 (535 BST)
New Moves: Lovely Kiss, Volt Switch, Shore Up, Quicksand
Custom Move Information (if applicable): Quicksand - Ground-type, Special, Hits all foe’s (2 Versus 2), 110 BP, 90% Acc, 10 PP (max: 16)
Custom Move Description (what effects it has): If Sandstorm is active, the target is partially trapped (traps 4-5 turns).
Competitive (niche in Ubers): The unique typing, unique moveset, and practicality of balanced stats, with helpful, but not overpowering abilities, enable Stunfisk to support teams in dealing with common offensive threats, while also dealing respectable damage. Stunfisk is the definition of an impactful ally that can seamlessly fit most teams, without demanding any special attention.

With resistances to the Steel STAB of the ever-common Dusk-Mane, the Flying assault of Mega-Salamence, and the countless Electric-type coverage moves, Stunfisk is able to resist just the right number of attacks.

Nevertheless, it is far from impenetrable, as other threats like Seed Flare Skymin, EQ coverage on Rayquaza Base form, and Ice Beam from the likes of Kyogre-Primal can work around its abilities and typing.

At face value, Stunfisk’s unique type-combination can punish the very checks it faces, sinking Groudon-Primal with Quicksand, shocking Kyogre-Primal with its Electric STAB, splashing Landurous with Muddy Water, and Lovely Kissing it’s most adamant of checks.

Still, Stunfisk itself will be stunned with how it’s minimal Speed, and average SpA keep it in line, as it aims for hitting foe’s as they switch in to him, or resisting their moves as he switches in.

Ability niche: Sandstream - Quicksand becomes suddenly unique, and allows Shore Up to provide a much needed heal buff that makes up for its lower-than-Uber-average bulk.

Not domineering, considering the vast amount of new and old weather changers, but it can still function independently, or even support your niche Rock-types like Arceus-Rock form and Diancie, as well as benefit Sand Rush on Excadrill.

Storm Drain - A new Kyogre-Primal check has emerged, just beware of that Ice Beam! Storm Drain also scores Stunfisk the sole option of boosting its Special Attack stat. Not bad considering it’s known for living hiding in the seashore.

Pokédex lore: “It conceals itself in the mud of the seashore. Then it waits. When prey touch it, it delivers a jolt of electricity.”

Tough Hide - Being able to take hits slightly better means everything to Stunfisk, while removing the secondary effects of those attacks also provides Stunfisk a unique, species bonus that’ll give it something to smile about. Overall, since it only affects Contact moves, Special Attacks and Ground moves are largely unaffected by it - letting it be durable but not indestructible. (An overall Weaker Fluffy).

Pokédex lore: “Its skin is very hard, so it is unhurt even if stepped on by sumo wrestlers. It smiles when transmitting electricity.”

 

[Cuddly]

Don't feel bad, you could just give them a new Ability that’s fair.

Nah. It’s alright.
I feel as though that Castform and Slaking would be interesting if you could make them Ubers if they kept their gimmicks. With Castform changing forms based on the weathers it doesn’t get, and with Slaking still losing a turn.
Making new abilities, like “Super Forecast” or “Better Truant”, would just break the “No custom abilities that combine multiple effects” rule.
Maybe next slate, I can have “Harsh Forecast” (with those OC forms) and “Something Truant” (which gives the recharge effect from Hyper Beam to Attacking moves).
I also find it just a bit odd that Slaking doesn’t have the exception to the 600 BST rule when it naturally had 670 BST. But that’s fair if you change all of Slaking’s other aspects.

 

[Champion Leon]

Nah. It’s alright.
I feel as though that Castform and Slaking would be interesting if you could make them Ubers if they kept their gimmicks. With Castform changing forms based on the weathers it doesn’t get, and with Slaking still losing a turn.
Making new abilities, like “Super Forecast” or “Better Truant”, would just break the “No custom abilities that combine multiple effects” rule.
Maybe next slate, I can have “Harsh Forecast” (with those OC forms) and “Something Truant” (which gives the recharge effect from Hyper Beam to Attacking moves).
I also find it just a bit odd that Slaking doesn’t have the exception to the 600 BST rule when it naturally had 670 BST. But that’s fair if you change all of Slaking’s other aspects.

Honestly, it’s not a big deal, if you gave Slaking 100 HP, 140 Atk, 100 Def, 60 SpA, 100 SpD, and 100 Spe it would be strong, but less overpowered, and less bulky overall, keep the same Speed tier, and function pretty similarly.

If you gave it a second typing like, since it’s a sloth, maybe an additional Grass or Ground typing, that would give it something different, and then it’s coverage in EQ would be more viable.

Slaking is a King afterall, it deserves to be a Royal Sweeper :).

 

[earl]

While I’m not involved in this mod at all, why is there a 600 BST limit? All this limit seems to be doing is forcing mons to be hyper-optimized on the abilities and typing front instead of being able to go for a more simple, Uber-like mon. Like most of the stuff I see submitted feel more like OU-power mons with B or C tier Uber niches. Idk maybe I’m wrong but I just think such a low limit is kind of weird

 

[Neosonic97]

As we can clearly see, there are a lot of solid checks already. Groudon is used so much not because it’s broken, but just because it’s really versatile and tanky. There’s no reason to make more subs just to beat it.

You didn't exactly debunk my point. Yes, there are PDon checks, But let's be real here- the main reason most of those checks see use in Ubers right now is BECAUSE, amongst other uses, they can defeat certain Primal Groudon sets without sacrificing any consistency. Once again, the importance of Primal Groudon in Ubers CANNOT be overstated.

And let me reiterate: The reason I made Pikachu able to threaten PDon without having to run Grass Knot is because Electric-types are not worth using otherwise, as the state of the tier (namely PDon's omnipresence) makes the Electric-typing a REALLY bad type to have, as the only real central threats you can feasibly beat are Yveltal and Primal Kyogre. Other than that, Electric falls to most common Uber-tier threats, not just PDon, but also Necrozma-DM (Assuming Ultra Burst is on the table), Zygarde-C, Arceus-Ground, and Ferrothorn, just to name a few, while only really being able to break the less common Arceus-Water and Ho-Oh. Electric coverage to beat the whale and deathbird is nice and all, but being an Electric-type that loses hard to most sets of the most common and almost universally-agreed upon best Pokemon in the Uber Tier is not, nor is one that has to lose hard to several OTHER common threats in the tier just to avoid losing to PDon 100% of the time.

It can either be versatile, or it can avoid being complete dead weight against almost all Primal Groudon sets. That's where your comparison falls apart. Each of the checks you listed beats AT LEAST two, if not three of the PDon sets. The nerfed version of Pikachu straight-up loses to ALL BUT ONE, and can't even reliably beat THAT one! I'm not talking about beating Primal Groudon- I'm talking about not being rendered almost completely useless by PDon. Because that's what the nerfed Pikachu falls victim to. It HAS to run Grass Knot or it can't do anything to PDon, meaning it gets hardwalled by several other reasonably common threats in the Uber tier, including the aforementioned Zygarde-C and Ferrothorn, meaning versatility isn't even an advantage. And that's doubly so because of the fact that its bulk is only marginally better than Deoxys-A, meaning Set-up is just straight outta the question.

Once again, there is a very good reason that Zekrom is used less than freaking Shaymin-Sky, a Pokemon that you pretty much never see in Ubers anyway, and that's because Electric is a bad typing in Ubers.

 

[Cuddly]

While I’m not involved in this mod at all, why is there a 600 BST limit? All this limit seems to be doing is forcing mons to be hyper-optimized on the abilities and typing front instead of being able to go for a more simple, Uber-like mon. Like most of the stuff I see submitted feel more like OU-power mons with B or C tier Uber niches. Idk maybe I’m wrong but I just think such a low limit is kind of weird

I also don’t know why Desolate Land and Primordial Sea are banned completely, but the other abilities that are banned have exceptions. It’s not like Primal Groundon and Primal Kyogre would be D rank without those abilities, and the abilities themselves are essentially Levitate with bonus effects and different interactions. Like would it really be too over baring if Macargo with a 600 BST got Desolate Land instead of Dry Skin?

 

[Jerry the great]

While I’m not involved in this mod at all, why is there a 600 BST limit? All this limit seems to be doing is forcing mons to be hyper-optimized on the abilities and typing front instead of being able to go for a more simple, Uber-like mon. Like most of the stuff I see submitted feel more like OU-power mons with B or C tier Uber niches. Idk maybe I’m wrong but I just think such a low limit is kind of weird

Agreed, limit should be 700 or something in that regard, or at the very least let Pokemon who already have over 600 BST keep their BST. A 600 BST limit is better of for something like "from untired to RU" or something like that. OM! can you please explain why? As a co leader you should know

 

[War Incarnate]

I personally think that the 600 BST limit should stay. There are quite a few Ubermons which are really good in the Ubers tier, but don't have BSTs over 600. They are: Naganadel, Marshadow, Deoxys-A, and Mega Gengar. The thing is, you don't HAVE to have a BST over 600 to truly be viable in Ubers, and just because you have a BST at or below 600 doesn't immediately make you look like rookie crap in Ubers when you're OU by usage. The thing is, all of these submissions ARE Uber-like - the revamped Pachirisu, for example, would probably get its butt kicked out of OU because of its sheer role compression, while the Simisage I submitted for this Pet Mod would get quickbanned for its extreme versatility and good coverage. The stats don't determine what tier you're in - at least, not purely, but rather, other factors, like versatility, role compression, typing, that sort of stuff.

 

[Scoopapa]

The idea of this Pet Mod is to, as the name suggests, take completely unviable mons and give them so many new tools that they would be banned to, or at least be viable in, Ubers. Ideally, buffs should be less focused on crazy stat increases, and more about exploring unique ways of making a Pokémon good enough to compete among the best of their kind, whether that be through expanded movepools or access to new or underutilized Abilities and type combinations

One last thing: try to keep your changes within the bounds of the Pokémon itself. I'm sure if Magcargo was a fast special sweeper, he would be great! But that doesn't really fit his design, or the point of him, really. Also, for non-legendaries, let's keep the BSTs at or below 600. That way, we can focus more on making a Pokémon great through more interesting ways.

I've understood it to be mostly flavor reasons, esp. because the limit is only for non-legendaries.

The point is that if this pet mod is to be taken seriously, assuming the point is to allow ZU mons to be included in the Ubers meta and not to dominate it, mons like these can't be allowed.

There also seems to be a general sense that we don't want to shake up the top tier of the VR too much. 600 BST doesn't prevent overpowered pokemon from being made but in a world where it's all theorymon I think it does lower the average power level of subs.

It is quite limiting if you want to make a pokemon that uses both attacking stats or you don't want your spread to look awkwardly minmaxed ( 60 Atk 150 SpA anyone? ). It's also limiting if you want to use a mediocre ability. At the same time, most non-mixed Ubers could basically be replicated if you dump the unused attacking stat enough, so I would say a lot is still possible under the limits. I don't really mind either way, tbh.

 

[Jerry the great]

Alright I see thanks for answering

 

[Champion Leon]

Agreed, limit should be 700 or something in that regard, or at the very least let Pokemon who already have over 600 BST keep their BST. A 600 BST limit is better of for something like "from untired to RU" or something like that. @OM can you please explain why? As a co leader you should know

Well I am not co-creator, I became co-Leader after the OP specified the rule, so Jamis361 should have been tagged and asked.

I also don’t know why Desolate Land and Primordial Sea are banned completely, but the other abilities that are banned have exceptions. It’s not like Primal Groundon and Primal Kyogre would be D rank without those abilities, and the abilities themselves are essentially Levitate with bonus effects and different interactions. Like would it really be too over baring if Macargo with a 600 BST got Desolate Land instead of Dry Skin?

I think it’s a matter of replication. By voting, we can see if something becomes too alike to another.

For example, even during the same stage of slate voting it’s been noted when Pokémon are “too alike” just by typing alone, even if they have vastly different stat distributions. Such as my Persian and Anaconja Kecleon.

Having an ability limit also encourages creativity, as you can create new items, abilities, moves, Z-moves, and typing combinations / stat spreads - and new strategies like Wonder Room, Magic Room or Gravity setters, etc.

For example, if you felt the 600 BST limit prevented you from being able to make a strong SpD then you could use a Sandstreamer Rock type, or for other types give it RegenVest. The point is, Ubers are not to be just endlessly replaced, we want Pokémon that less compete for the same role, and rather add to the metagame.

While I’m not involved in this mod at all, why is there a 600 BST limit? All this limit seems to be doing is forcing mons to be hyper-optimized on the abilities and typing front instead of being able to go for a more simple, Uber-like mon. Like most of the stuff I see submitted feel more like OU-power mons with B or C tier Uber niches. Idk maybe I’m wrong but I just think such a low limit is kind of weird

I can’t speak for Jamis361 but I can say that I believe his point was to have Pokémon work towards a more viable offering of different types, roles, and support, including more of the underutilized types I mentioned above, etc.

I believe balance, and flavor is key. Hence Legendaries are able to have a higher than 600 BST, since they are expected to be a dominate Pokémon of its type, such as Kyogre, (even without the Blue Orb).

If we created a 700 BST rule, the it could end up closer to Rayquaza-Mega, which was banned in Ubers, and then what should we limit as our BST?

Plus if everything become so good it’s S-Rank, then that may prevent anything niche from sticking out, and stagnate the game to the top 6 general Pokémon, with little variation.

I think with Desolate Land, and Primordial Sea, I assume that the reasoning is because if someone simply submitted a Primal Groudon equivalent, but maybe switched the SpA with Atk, and SpD with Def but kept its typing, then it would seem redundant with a Groudon-Primal.

We are less forcing people to make the best of what they can with what they are given, and more encouraging people to think of what is truly needed in our BST max, and not just overdoing stats to make X better than Y.

Overall:

How many of our slate submissions have less than a 600 BST, even less than 550? Quiet a few of the winners.
——————
Please let’s move all nerfs, buffs, BST discussion, etc. to the Discord.

I am aiming to keep the thread mostly for submission specific feedback (like suggestions for a submission before a vote), and the submissions / voting itself.

Discord will provide much more openness to discuss it bc the chat is live and ready to be had.

Here is a link.

As I am enforcing what Jamis361 mentioned-

Yes sir! I’m tired so I’ll put mine in tomorrow

I have decided to move discussion to the Discord. We’ll come to a consensus on necessary nerfs and the like there and announce them with slate winners.
Subs will be open until the 31st

 

[Champion Leon]

You didn't exactly debunk my point. Yes, there are PDon checks, But let's be real here- the main reason most of those checks see use in Ubers right now is BECAUSE, amongst other uses, they can defeat certain Primal Groudon sets without sacrificing any consistency. Once again, the importance of Primal Groudon in Ubers CANNOT be overstated.

And let me reiterate: The reason I made Pikachu able to threaten PDon without having to run Grass Knot is because Electric-types are not worth using otherwise, as the state of the tier (namely PDon's omnipresence) makes the Electric-typing a REALLY bad type to have, as the only real central threats you can feasibly beat are Yveltal and Primal Kyogre. Other than that, Electric falls to most common Uber-tier threats, not just PDon, but also Necrozma-DM (Assuming Ultra Burst is on the table), Zygarde-C, Arceus-Ground, and Ferrothorn, just to name a few, while only really being able to break the less common Arceus-Water and Ho-Oh. Electric coverage to beat the whale and deathbird is nice and all, but being an Electric-type that loses hard to most sets of the most common and almost universally-agreed upon best Pokemon in the Uber Tier is not, nor is one that has to lose hard to several OTHER common threats in the tier just to avoid losing to PDon 100% of the time.

It can either be versatile, or it can avoid being complete dead weight against almost all Primal Groudon sets. That's where your comparison falls apart. Each of the checks you listed beats AT LEAST two, if not three of the PDon sets. The nerfed version of Pikachu straight-up loses to ALL BUT ONE, and can't even reliably beat THAT one! I'm not talking about beating Primal Groudon- I'm talking about not being rendered almost completely useless by PDon. Because that's what the nerfed Pikachu falls victim to. It HAS to run Grass Knot or it can't do anything to PDon, meaning it gets hardwalled by several other reasonably common threats in the Uber tier, including the aforementioned Zygarde-C and Ferrothorn, meaning versatility isn't even an advantage. And that's doubly so because of the fact that its bulk is only marginally better than Deoxys-A, meaning Set-up is just straight outta the question.

Once again, there is a very good reason that Zekrom is used less than freaking Shaymin-Sky, a Pokemon that you pretty much never see in Ubers anyway, and that's because Electric is a bad typing in Ubers.

Let’s end this discussion. Move it to DISCORD if it must continue, but please I feel that prior slates that are done with do not need to be presented here.

When it comes time to do the Slate break and discuss nerfs, buffs, etc. after Slate 7 as SteelixPrismGX made clear, those discussions will be on winning slates that have been already put through the metagame.

I ask that this discussion be done. I could have replied to your response to my post as well, proving some points incorrect, but I did not reply bc it would be pointless to continue.

Let’s drop it NOW.

 

[anaconja]

Pokémon: Granbull
Typing: Fairy/Ground
Abilities: Intimidate / Quick Feet / Rattled
Stats: 110/140/100/60/90/90 (590 BST)
Competitive (niche in Ubers): Granbull has a unique typing that allows it to beat common mons like Yveltal, Zygarde, Marshadow, as well as Necrozma-Dusk-Mane, Magearna, and Groudon-Primal. Its speed tier allows it to speed tie with other mons like the primals and Giratina-Origin, though it gets outsped by other Ubers mons like Xerneas and Rayquaza. It also has the coverage to beat mons who would tank its STABs, like Stone Edge, Close Combat, Thunder Punch, and Fire Punch. Because of this, though, Granbull suffers from 4MSS, either getting walled by Ho-Oh, Celesteela, or Skarmory. It also gets outsped by support Arceus forms and crippled by burns.

Pokémon: Komala
Typing: Normal/Psychic
Abilities: Comatose
Stats: 105/125/85/75/125/65 (580 BST)
New Moves: Slack Off
Competitive (niche in Ubers): Komala's unique typing allows it to check many of the common Psychic and Ghost-type mons in the tier, such as Lunala, Mewtwo(-Mega-Y), and Giratina-Origin. It also has access to very useful support moves, such as Knock Off to remove items, Rapid Spin to remove hazards, and most importantly, U-Turn to escape being trapped by Gengar-Mega and Gothitelle/Gothorita. On the other hand, its physical bulk is lakcing, causing it to be overpowered by the likes of Groudon-Primal, Ho-Oh, and Marshadow, and its special bulk can still be broken by Kyogre-Primal. Additionally, its typing is not very useful offensively, meaning it can be used as setup fodder for Necrozma-Dusk-Mane.

While I’m not involved in this mod at all, why is there a 600 BST limit? All this limit seems to be doing is forcing mons to be hyper-optimized on the abilities and typing front instead of being able to go for a more simple, Uber-like mon.

I guess it makes more sense for a non-legendary to have a maximum of 600 BST, though I do kind of agree with the fact that people try to compensate with wack moves and abilities.

Like most of the stuff I see submitted feel more like OU-power mons with B or C tier Uber niches.

I don’t see this as a bad thing at all. The way I see it, the meta should still be like Ubers, but with some extra useable Untiered mons added to the table. Having the Untiered mons dictate the meta makes it less “From Untiered to Ubers” and more “Untiered with some Ubers.”

 

[astralydia]

Pokémon: Zebstrika
Typing: Electric / Fire
Ability: Reckless / Magic Guard
Stats: 74 / 113 / 68 / 100 / 68 / 132 | 555 BST
New Moves: Fire Blast, Ice Beam, Nasty Plot, Volt Tackle, Flare Blitz, Earthquake, Extreme Speed
Competitive (niche in Ubers): Zebstrika is both a capable physical and special wallbreaker with an excellent Speed tier, making it a fantastic fit on offensive teams. It sadly barely has any defensive utility due to its mediocre bulk and typing, being 2HKO'd by Xerneas' Moonblast, and being unable to OHKO back. Nasty Plot sets also lack initial power, meaning it can be difficult to get off a sweep, despite the inclusion of Ice Beam.

sets

Zebstrika @ Life Orb / Choice Band
Ability: Magic Guard / Reckless
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive / Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Volt Tackle
- Earthquake
- Ice Beam / Extreme Speed

Zebstrika @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Fire Blast
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Nasty Plot

 

[anaconja]

Pokémon: Zangoose
Typing: Normal / Fighting
Abilities: Adaptability / Intimidate / Tough Claws
Stats: 80 / 150 / 80 / 60 / 80 / 120 (600 BST)
New Moves: Earthquake, Extreme Speed, Gunk Shot, Focused Swipe

252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Zangoose Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde: 239-283 (56.9 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
you know when you 2hko the bulkiest mon in the tier there's something wrong with this sub

Pokémon: Beautifly
Typing: Bug / Flying
Abilities: Tinted Lens / No Guard / Flutter
Custom Ability Description (if applicable): Pokemon with this ability become immune to damage from Stealth Rock and Spikes, and will not be poisoned by Toxic Spikes or paralyzed by Static Signal.
Stats: 80 / 60 / 80 / 145 / 110 / 125 (600 BST)
New Moves: Air Slash, Hurricane, Dark Pulse, Energy Ball, Focus Blast, Strength Sap, Sludge Bomb, Heat Wave, Sleep Powder

its "issues":

• pdon: gets ohkod with z-buzz
• marsh: sneak does 57 max and beautifly just saps
• yveltal: mind games ensue. does it attack? does it sap? plus if it has sleep powder instead it just loses
• gengar: sludge wave 3hkos after a qd
• xerneas: since beautifly outspeeds +2 xerneas after a qd, it can get to +2 and live a +2 moonblast and ohko back with z-buzz
• rocks: vivillon in ag and volcarona in ou have this "problem" but they're still very successful in their respective tiers

i had paragraphs written but they got deleted so i might rewrite this more properly when i get the motivation

also imma sub this again

Pokémon: Beautifly
Type: Bug/Flying
Abilities: Compound Eyes/Tinted Lens
Stats: 60/65/80/110/80/100 (495 BST)
New Moves: Hurricane, Sleep Powder
Competitive (Niche in Ubers): Butterfree is a powerful Quiver Dance sweeper due to its access to Sleep Powder and fairly powerful moves in Hurricane and Bug Buzz. However, it finds great difficulty setting up due to its bad bulk and low speed tier.

 

[War Incarnate]

252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Zangoose Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde: 239-283 (56.9 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
you know when you 2hko the bulkiest mon in the tier there's something wrong with this sub


its "issues":

• pdon: gets ohkod with z-buzz
• marsh: sneak does 57 max and beautifly just saps
• yveltal: mind games ensue. does it attack? does it sap? plus if it has sleep powder instead it just loses
• gengar: sludge wave 3hkos after a qd
• xerneas: since beautifly outspeeds +2 xerneas after a qd, it can get to +2 and live a +2 moonblast and ohko back with z-buzz
• rocks: vivillon in ag and volcarona in ou have this "problem" but they're still very successful in their respective tiers

Please read this and you'll get a general idea of what I'm trying to tell you:

I have decided to move discussion to the Discord. We’ll come to a consensus on necessary nerfs and the like there and announce them with slate winners.

 

[anaconja]

Please read this and you'll get a general idea of what I'm trying to tell you:

uh why not, you know, make the subs a little balanced first before they go to voting. it takes 0 effort and makes sure people don't forget about it.

In regards to the overpowered Bug Pokémon that were submitted, like Krickitune with a Tough Claws equivalent for Sound Moves, it seems like it could also KO Primal Groudon even with Max SpD bulk:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tough Claws Kricketune Last Resort vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Groudon-Primal: 357-420 (88.3 - 103.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

I substituted Last Resort (and made it a Special Attack) for Boomburst, since it’s totally not overpowered to give a Normal type a STAB Boomburst with a 30% boosting ability that can also 2HKO Zygarde.

So now that it can shown as having gotten the equivalent 30% boost, we can see the power of what Anaconja’s totally balanced and not overpowered clearly superior ideas seem to be able to do, even when they do not win and constantly get RE-submitted with no changes, over and over again.

now that you've showed this, tell me what this does to other common mons like marshadow, gengar-mega, lunala, and giratina.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kricketune Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Marshadow: 74-87 (23 - 27.1%) -- 52.3% chance to 4HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kricketune Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gengar-Mega: 70-82 (26.8 - 31.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kricketune Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 12 SpD Shadow Shield Lunala: 126-149 (30.3 - 35.9%) -- 44.2% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kricketune Bug Buzz vs. 248 HP / 52 SpD Giratina: 110-130 (21.8 - 25.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kricketune Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Giratina-Origin: 135-159 (30.6 - 36%) -- 45.8% chance to 3HKO

contrast this to zangoose, who kos everything, not just groudon, after a boost.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Zangoose Shadow Claw vs. 248 HP / 208+ Def Giratina: 377-445 (74.9 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Zangoose Shadow Claw vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Giratina-Origin: 455-536 (103.1 - 121.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Zangoose Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 464-546 (72.9 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(note that zyg-c is rarely at full health, and needs to change forme beforehand, because it gets cleanly ohkod at 50%)
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Zangoose Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 597-703 (150 - 176.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Zangoose Close Combat vs. 144 HP / 0 Def Groudon-Primal: 487-575 (129.1 - 152.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Zangoose Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Water: 468-551 (105.4 - 124%) -- guaranteed OHKO

kricketune clearly is terrible at wallbreaking, but once you see it just so happens groudon-primal gets ko'd, you jump all over that.

I guess I can agree that some subs, like this one, tend to use “wack” moves and abilities to compensate for the BST, but then again, that’s why we have a voting system, and I guess that may be why they do not win, even when they constantly get RE—submitted (like again here) time after time, with no actual changes to the submission.

two can play that game.

 

[War Incarnate]

What the hell??!! JUST FREAKING MOVE ON! I AM SICK AND TIRED OF PEOPLE CONSTANTLY STIRRING UP BULLCRAP AND THEN F#@!%$& RELEASING IT TO THE PUBLIC. JUST. MOVE. ON.

 

[anaconja]

So you didn’t even give it the Bug Buzz Loudspeaker Boost... on any of your calculations.

i did, check if you dont believe me
also the nitpicking is incredible, even if i didnt forget the point still stands that bug buzz does jack against them, 130% of essentially 0 is also essentially 0

You didn’t chose anything but Ghosts resists including 4x resists

yes. what’s your point? if you want usage stats im happy to show that there are plenty of ghosts types in the metagame.

steelix changing his zangoose to fighting makes it even more broken lmfao

 

[anaconja]

the fact you only use Ghosts is what makes it unfair. You Choose only super effective moves for Zangoose, but then only resists for Krickitune

thats mostly cause 1) zangoose has the moves that hit things se (although not zygarde, which contradicts your argument), while 2) kricketune has moves that happen to be walled by common ghost types

hey wait a minute i only had two calcs with se moves tf are you on

 

[Champion Leon]

thats mostly cause 1) zangoose has the moves that hit things se (although not zygarde, which contradicts your argument), while 2) kricketune has moves that happen to be walled by common ghost types

hey wait a minute i only had two calcs with se moves tf are you on

i am addressing this in discord

 

[Champion Leon]

The Voting is starting now.

The voting closes next Friday, or sooner (depending on the number of votes cast between now and then).

My voting:

Stunfisk OM!
Regigigas Scoopapa
Sunflora Scoopapa
Meganium Jerry the great
Beautifly SteelixPrismGX