Gen 4 DPP OU Viability Rankings V2

[Aerodactyl Legend]

If we're just talking about breaking stuff open (their offensive utility)

Infernape
- gap -
gyarados lucario dragonite are all about the same
- gap -
metagross

When we include stuff like ability to revenge kill infernape and lucario (oh and dragonite if you're running ES now that i think about it) rise a bit. Then the others rise when we consider the defensive resistances they can bring to a team. I think at the end of the day the list ends up being something like Ape as the clear best and then the other 4 are all pretty close. The reason i say this is at the start of the match if I have my full squad i probably have pretty decent answers to the other 4, but when ape comes out it's goddamn terrifying when you don't know what set it is, because it can easily do anything and if you predict wrong without knowing the set you're just dead (and the lack of needing to set up). You can argue something similar for dragonite but at least its main STAB moves (draco / outrage) have notable drawbacks that ape doesn't really have. The SR weakness isn't insignificant either.

I think Infernape is a clear A+ because it can run any kind of offensive set, but I'm not sure if there's gap between it and Gyarados/Lucario overall.

Gyarados lives on its typing and Intimidate to maximize the times it can switch in on stuff. While the old Dragon Dance does run into problems, it still is a pretty decent threat that had always warranted something to check it (a faster scarf mon). It becomes even deadlier if it decides to go bulky to get more DDs. Also, the RestTalk set is still insanely good, Stealth Rock or not.

What's your thoughts further into Infernape vs Lucario? The biggest difference is obviously the speed, which would be a big reason Ape might be more dangerous (in addition to a million coverage and boosting moves). However, Lucario has a much easier time finding Pokemon to switch in on because of its typing (Infernape doesn't like even resisted hits sometimes). And Band/Scarf Tyranitar is a free Swords Dance, that's a huge issue for any team.

 

[Lord Ninjax]

Infernape is probs the best of the bunch. I think the sheer offensive versatility in its move pool means nothing is safe: beyond its STABs you can run U-Turn, Mach Punch, Grass Knot, Hidden Power Ice and Stone Edge (or a boosting move although that's not my thing).
Lucario is second for sweeping potency.
I'd put Dragonite ahead of Gyarados cause the Mixed and CB sets send so many heads rolling, its insane. Bulky DD can put in some work too especially with support (it can also hold off Fighters and ScarfTran). Lastly is the SpDef set that I intend to release on the world next Tour.
Gyarados is a lethal sweeper but needs a decent amount of support: not just Rotom-A is an issue but Skarm and Bulky Waters are also problems (along with some Grasses like Breloom and Celebi). Even so, it's deadly and handles its share of things defensively.
Metagross is kinda one dimensional for me and I REALLY don't think it should go to A+....even in this offensive metagame mons should bring defensive value and Metagross brings just about nothing in that category. Even offensively I tend to find it a little underwhelming beyond Leading and Booming something (which is useful but still).
Oh yeah still backing Flygon and Gengar to A+, I think panamaxis' post is from a several year old mindset and doesn't really grasp Flygon's value. Flygon always tends to put in a lot of work and its offensive sets can always keep the opponent guessing: the only really safe switch is a Mixed Defensive Hippowdon (and maybe SpDef Gliscor), and both mons are easy to capitalise on. Furthermore as I mentioned it checks Zapdos, Heatran and Tyranitar which is really huge for an offensive team. In a similar vein I support Pert, cause it has the niche of fitting in on an offensive team the way Hippo just can't as it kills momentum (thereby refuting pana's post that the only reason to use Pert over Hippo is that it checks ScarfTran)

 

[panamaxis]

I didn't say checking scarftran was the only reason to use hippo > pert. I gave that as one example where the water typing would be crucial and you'd want pert over hippo. RE flygon, let's talk about scarf I guess to begin with.
Using adamant scarfgon for best case scenario:

252+ Atk Flygon Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 276-326 (80.7 - 95.3%)
252+ Atk Flygon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shuca Berry Heatran: 288-338 (89.1 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Flygon Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 240-284 (79.4 - 94%)
252+ Atk Flygon Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gengar: 150-177 (57.4 - 67.8%)
252+ Atk Flygon Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zapdos: 228-270 (71 - 84.1%) - this is a really shaky check unless you're just using it to pivot on thunderbolts - and if you're not scarfed, at worst you're going for the 50/50 of just dying to hp ice instantly.

You can see how disappointing 100 base attack can be. And what are you going to do early game, spam EQ and let gyarados/dnite etc. set up for free? Spam outrage and get your flygon killed afterwards? Scarf flygon is consistently a good scarfer, but not amazingly great as it has notable flaws in not always killing stuff without a bit of chip damage and being reluctant to lock itself into its stab moves too early.

Ok so yeah, mix flygon and CB flygon are pretty scary, but CB flygon has the similar issues to scarf flygon in terms of it locking into its STABS and mix flygon - i mean, can this even break blissey? Are you going to drop speed to add into attack and now lose to all the HP ice 100s? Are you going to max speed and lose out on attack? Surely you're just too weak as mixgon if you're not running a +s.atk nature, but if you are you're now getting revenged by celebi / shaymin / zapdos etc. I just did a calc for interests sake and it's not even OHKOing 252hp starmie without SR on the field. Flygon is going off 100/80 offenses. Dnite is going off 134/100 and ape is going off 104s. Mix flygon isn't bad, but its offensive stats let it down a little.

Anyway, the point I'm trying to get at is that flygon has problems - too many problems for something in A+. Flygon is just a good, solid, consistent mon, in my opinion, but A+ should be for stuff that is great, and I don't think flygon is 'great'; I think it's consistently quite good.

I do think ape is better than the rest of the crew, but I don't know whether it's so much better that it has to be a subtier above. What I do think is Ape has to be A+. I don't think metagross is good enough to be A+. I'm apathetic about lucario dnite and gyarados being A or A+. Everything you said Aerodactyl Legend I don't disagree with. The biggest difference is speed, yeah, although something like just standard mixape (GK hp ice) is probably harder to switch into than lucario, although lucario will just win you games with one free turn if you play it well. So I'd be absolutely fine with ape and lucario being in the same tier, but that would have to be A+ if they're in the same tier because ape is definitely an A+ mon.

RE Gyarados, gyarados is one of those mons that you always have a pretty good idea of what it's going to do, but it can still mess you up. You might be fine vs ice fang gyara but destroyed by bounce gyara. You might be fine vs gyara unless it has EQ, or Stone Edge, or fine vs lefties gyara but not able to beat wacan gyara or life orb gyara. I feel like slight changes in gyara's moveset/gyara can have really big impacts. Very good mon.

tl;dr Flygon A, Infernape A+, Metagross A, Apathetic about Gyarados/Dnite/Lucario being A or A+. No comment on gengar being A or A+.

 

[Alfalfa]

-> C+/C Rank

In all respects, Ludicolo is quite an underrated threat right now. In the context of rain offense, while Kingdra is almost certainly better, they still form a solid duo, weakening each other's checks, and the threat of both of them still puts an enormous pressure on the currently offensively-inclined metagame. Ludicolo does have its flaws - namely getting outsped by Scarf Flygon, as well as a lot of dependence on rain to pressure opposing teams, but it still pulls it weight quite well on the small number of teams it fits on, and I don't think it is any less worthy of a rank than most of the Pokemon listed in either C Rank.

 

[e7e]

i don't think zapdos is S rank. if u get him in then he is gonna do work vs particular squads. this is why he's mostly seen (and most effective) as a lead. i just find there are times where the dude is just overwhelmed against certain offenses (e.g. somalian type squads) if sr is up and is just hard-walled by most staller squads. it is very effective when paired with breloom (a sometimes necessary addition to take advantage of the ground types zap is walled by) and starmie for spinner support. this is why i think he's A+, cause he only starts being super good when u have something to abuse the swampert/blissey he's getting walled by.

same opinion

 

[Apollo.]

Hi everybody I wonder why Bronzong not rank A? Excellant typing very good bulk can check a lot of stuff acces to sr, Gyroball , explosion Two Good Ability ( heatproof and levitate ) and great as TR cleaner

Bronzong B + > A-

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

Hi everybody I wonder why Bronzong not rank A? Excellant typing very good bulk can check a lot of stuff acces to sr, Gyroball , explosion Two Good Ability ( heatproof and levitate ) and great as TR cleaner

Bronzong B + > A-

Good defensive type, but always dies at some point because of the lack of recovery, which is the main issue (at least Forretress does more hazard related stuff). Its support movepool is interesting, but niche at the most. In fact, the only consistent support it does is Stealth Rock. Hypnosis is dead, there are better dual screen users available, and Trick Room is Trick Room. It's one the most predictable mons in the game. While it's annoying when it switches in on stuff that doesn't hurt it much, it doesn't really threaten anything in return. The only good wildcard it has is Explosion, while Gyro Ball (and Earthquake is meh). As a Dragon switch, it's not that great because while it can take Outrages and DMs, it has to sit around long enough to get Leftovers recovery to bring it back up. Dragonite has Fire attacks, Kingdra has the Physical/Special Water attacks, and Flygon can simply U-Turn, which Bronzong can't effectively punish except with maybe exploding on something.

Hell, I say lower it to B.

 

[boudouche]

well you forget that bronzong doesn't really care about magnezone and is generally very effective against magnezone offense teams. you need earthquake to deal with it but its not like its a bad move on it, it also prevents cmjirachi from getting too many boosts and hurts nape/heatran/gross/empoleon/lucario, etc. i think zong is very good against offensive teams in general despite lacking a real recovery move (you need to abuse protect + leftovers to heal it) and being a deadweight against stall teams (free spikes for skarm / free wow for rotom-a, etc). B+ is ok.

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

Looking over the list again and apart from the proposed stuff already on the table, had anyone used Raikou recently? I haven't in maybe a year or so, but it seems like the metagame would be great for it now, with its main enemies in lower usage (apart from Tyranitar which is still a problem for CM if not behind a sub). It matches up quite well with a lot of the higher ranked guys, depending on whether you run CM or Scarf. It's at the perfect speed for scarf when running Aura Sphere and CM is just scary as shit. It probably is not as reliant on Toxic Spikes as it was in the past.

If someone else with more recent experience with it could give more insight. I strongly feel it's (still) better than the guys that are also in B.

 

[Apollo.]

Scarf raikou is an thing in the actual metagame ? with tbolt/hp-ice/aura sphere it can be great revenge killer

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

Yeah, it's been used as a Revenge killer for a while (even before getting AS). It got Aura Sphere in 2010, though was locked to a Rash nature. Unfortunate for CM sets, but still works well for Scarf because it still outruns Flygon and other 100s.

 

[Apollo.]

I have not seen much lately raikou in competition or fun match

CM + Shuca is fine lure easily scarfgon and kill him and continue to sweep

361 speed is really amazing cuz you outspeed anything like gengar/infernape and force them switch i really don't know why ppl don't use it and it is the same case for Jolteon with subpass/specs are great

 

[McMeghan]

SpDef Hippo, Swampert, Flygon, Tyranitar and taking full damages from every hazards are the reasons Raikou (and Jolteon) isn't seeing a lot of usage. It's not bad, but not great either, and it definitly needs some extensive support to work well.

Jolteon has an arguably better niche because of the greater speed (outspeeding ScarfTar is huge). Spec hurts pretty much everything in the same way Zapdos does and it even has Baton Pass for momentum purposes.

 

[Lord Ninjax]

I'd actually go so far as to say that Jolteon could be A- : not only is outspeeding ScarfTar that huge, at that pace you also get the jump on just about everything else that might come around (sans Aero and Scarfers but both are easy to check). Specs and LO are ridiculous at trucking through unprepared teams (especially Offense which tends to crutch on ScarfTar/the easily worn down Rotom-A or offensive grounds), but the real kicker is the Wish Pass set, which allows you to give a deadly sweeper like DD Gyara virtually free setup against stall, while promising to keep offensive teams relatively healthy. Jolt is ridiculous for this, it has a lot of other sets that do nicely too in this metagame. Has a handful of common checks, none of which are particularly popular (especially with the decline in stall as a whole). IMO it's actually kinda somewhere between B+ and A- for me (closer to A-), but yeah could definitely go up.

 

[Hot N Cold]

Any A- mon actually is better than Jolteon except Crobat which needs to drop. B+/B rank for Jolteon and Raikou sounds alright.

Also another mons that should change his ranks in my opinion;

drops
Forretress: A to B+. 0 usage in past Wcop, 6% usage in past SPL. Mediocre at everything.
Vaporeon: B+ to B. Sand Storm fucks really bad Vaporeon, forced to Wish everytime to itself so needs some free turns. In the end of the day everyone uses any kind of water type except Vappy, sadly.

rise
Infernape: A to A+. Already talked about this; relatively easy to fit in any kind of offensive teams and one of the hardest mon to counter in the tier.
Machamp: A- to A. Its amazing, beats most stuff in 1vs1 scenario and forces 50-50 everytime.

 

[mael]

i wouldn't drop crobat. it is a great pokemon in many ways. first of all it got great speed and a decent attack, which allows it to outpace a lot of common offensive pkmn and revengekill them / pressure them / force them out, once they are slightly weakened. infernape, starmie, shaymin etc. by forcing them out, it can gain great momentum with uturn, safely bringing starmie in on tran, breloom on ttar or whatever you got in your team, that would appreciate these kind of free switch ins against those pokemon. in a metagame where gaining information can win games this trait of forcing switches is very useful.

another great thing crobat does well is handling quite a bunch of stallbreakers on defensive teams. breloom, infernape (with proper switching), machamp are much easier to beat with a fast pokemon like crobat, and while doing this it also provides some kind of back up against defensive teams with taunt and it's longevity, which its great bulk and access to roost offer. i don't think gliscor outclasses it in this role as a bulky taunt user, because of the speed crobat has, that allows it to act as a kind of revengekiller too, for defensive teams that cannot fit a scarfer. i've used it before to pressure starmie not to spin, to handle mixednape which actually ohko's the rest of my team (granted, this requires smart switching) and do a lot of different things, including whittling tyranitar with uturn to a point where scarftran can sweep amongst others.

i think this is one of these mons which provide so much utility regardless of their drawbacks (which in this case are reduced to giving a few mons switch-ins; uturn lowers the issue severly) and b+/b rank doesn't reflect its value properly.

 

[Lord Ninjax]

I've already shot my opinion more times than I can count, so yeah, just a distilled variant of my proposals:
Infernape to A+
Flygon, Gengar, Lucario and Gyarados to A+ (maybe)
Kingdra returns to A, Emp and Pert could go up as well but yeah it's a maybe.
Skarm could drop, I can't really decide on it.
Crobat stays A-
Forretress drops to A- or B+
Jolteon could go to A-
Clefable to B+
Everything else I don't particularly care about.

 

[SmogonWorkHorse]

At times, as players we need to reassess even the most esteemed of Pokemon due to the current circumstances. Alot of theorymon is useless if it doesn't reflect the here and now. No-one seems to address Skarmory who is sitting at A+. If you play the current dpp you know that it is very hard pressed to set up as it use to few years back and more Pokemon are finding ways to dispose of it with Mixed Dragonite, E Belt Jirachi, Lure Tyranitar, taunt Gliscor more usage of Starmie, Mix Ape and Band Ape are up and about ; even Grass-types are not safe set up fodder anymore 100% of the time. When one questions how poorly Forretress is doing currently, Skarmory needs to be put on the spot as well. It can phase however it lacks Rapid Spin, it lacks a method to hurt Rotom, Taunt Gyarados is shooting up in usage by the way, did you know? It finds itself (based on world cup replays and battles I've been watching recently between and/or played vs top calibre players) very hard pressed and lucky if it gets one layer of spikes followed by successfully tanking a Pokemon for the remainder of the game. Skarmory has become dead weight in this day and age and while it isnt bad, it doesnt deserve the rank of A+ anymore. Defensively, it cannot handle the pressure of the new dpp metagame and even when given chances to come in.

Let us read:

A RANK

Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time.

One MAJOR thing I want people to understand is its not all clear cut, Skarmory may be able to take certain hits with ease such as DD Kingdra or SD Scizor however alot of Pokemon that Skarmory lets in for free are incredibly dangerous and....simply put are amongst the hardest to switch into. Skarmory isnt 4x weak to Fire type moves and is perhaps not as bad as Forretress however it has also declined recently and it is fair for it to drop as well.

The special defense variant can take SE hits from defensive grass-types however it then cant take common +1 Gyarados waterfall reliably after rocks which is a big no no. Skarmory is said to be a primary Spiker, if it gets up 1-2 layers while jeopardizing its team in the process ie. luring out Jirachi Nite etc. It becomes a heavy issues BECAUSE the majority of these Pokemon are so vertasile it turns quite nasty. It is super common when using stall that a Jirachi comes in on Skarmory and scares it out for either it tricking or calm minding or Thunderbolting etc. and when you combine Jirachi and something like Ape or Nite you have a problem on your hands.

Why I think Skarmory deserves to be in A is the fact that it is the best spiker in the game and from that standpoint A is fine..not much of a difference anyways however I wanted to hear others unbiased opinions.

I will not propose what rank to put it in as at the end of the day this list is personal bias in one way or another however this needed to be shared.

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

Zapdos should be marked as S in leads. Scarf is excellent. Also, Scizor is not marked as a lead. Scarf on him is also great. A- at least.

 

[august]

I dont really see how Scarf Scizor is an excellent lead.

Aero- still gets rocks
Azelf- still gets rocks
Hippo- still gets rocks
Rose- still sleeps something / gets tspikes
Metagross- still gets rocks (are you seeing a trend?)
You don't even OHKO Heatran, Machamp still gets a free Dynamic Punch and every lead (and their mother) get hazards up on you. Really the only lead you'll pick up momentum on is like Scarftar or Celebi or Starmie

Definitely disagree with A- for Scarf Sciz lead (and really Sciz lead in general)

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

They're for (offensive) teams that don't go for turn 1 rocks. U-Turn and spin a couple turns later. I'll admit A- is probably too high for Scizor. It still should be listed though, it works.

 

[august]

See my above reasoning for why I don't think that it works

In most cases wouldnt you wanna opt for 4 atk Metagross, who forces more awkward situations for the leads i listed above and can Explode to break walls early

 

[Apollo.]

Zapdos should be marked as S in leads. Scarf is excellent. Also, Scizor is not marked as a lead. Scarf on him is also great. A- at least.

Scarf good ?

You loose the power of specs/magnet which is a big deal for a lead,you need to speedtie with flygon scarf which is annoying also you need starmie as spinner if you want to be good revenge killer

I disagree with you but yeah zapdos should be marked as S in leads because its one of the best anti-lead in dpp ou and there are just aero/ttar who can be annoying (for azelf u turn in stealth rock turn and put scarfer or ttar ) the leftovers + roost variant allow you to come in early game to check more easily stuff like shaymin (magnet/specs variant are using more u-turn in the last slot than roost allow them to break sash of lead ttar)

 

[Apollo.]

I think azelf colbur berry is better than the classic focus sash in offensive teams cuz with sashed machamp become common its really cool cuz you can stealth rock on him and break his sash (or get the KO if its lum berry)

What do you think about that variant in the current metagame ?

 

[ReshiRampage]

I think azelf colbur berry is better than the classic focus sash in offensive teams cuz with sashed machamp become common its really cool cuz you can stealth rock on him and break his sash (or get the KO if its lum berry)

What do you think about that variant in the current metagame ?

I personally think it's kinda situational if it's used to beat pretty much one mon and that Sash has more overall utility