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Gen 4 DPP OU Viability Rankings V2
- Thread starter Jirachee
- Start date
- Status
Ahh, I thought you were just making a case for him. Yeah that he is not there is obviously a mistake. He is not that irrelevant.
weezing is like a worse gliscor but it can counter breloom (most glis don't), gyarados and doesn't get screwed by ice ttar/lucario or toxics. yeah I know... but I tried it after the success of funkasaurus' legendary adv team billy hatcher in late '12 and it wasn't terrible.
and yeah gatr is alright.
and yeah gatr is alright.
I don't see the issue with gatr. SD aqua jet is pretty cool. I ran it with gyarados on the same team and it's fine at wearing down common gyara checks like starmie / rotom etc. It's definitely not as good as gyara in general but it's not bad and it has its selling points. DD 3 attacks doesn't sound horrible either.
If you want a strong physical water but you need priority for say, infernape or something, or you want to be able to at least damage scarfers like flygon jirachi and rotom instead of insta dying, gatr is actually worth considering over gyarados. It has enough reasons to stay on the list.
If you want a strong physical water but you need priority for say, infernape or something, or you want to be able to at least damage scarfers like flygon jirachi and rotom instead of insta dying, gatr is actually worth considering over gyarados. It has enough reasons to stay on the list.
not that i really care about this viability rankings list, but i disagree with some of the names.
if s rank were to really be comprised of the 6 pokemon that are currently here, everyone's team should be those 6 mons. starmie is not s rank, neither is rotom-w. honestly don't think zapdos is s rank material either. that tier should be occupied by tyranitar, heatran, and jirachi on utility alone - those three are basically the dpp metagame.
dragonite being a+ and lucario being an a is a joke - this just tells me that the tier list is influenced too much by bw players. i don't think people use lucario enough to understand how it obliterates most of these newer dpp teams single-handedly, with 99% of people using a pursuit weak scarf rotom as the only real check.
if s rank were to really be comprised of the 6 pokemon that are currently here, everyone's team should be those 6 mons. starmie is not s rank, neither is rotom-w. honestly don't think zapdos is s rank material either. that tier should be occupied by tyranitar, heatran, and jirachi on utility alone - those three are basically the dpp metagame.
dragonite being a+ and lucario being an a is a joke - this just tells me that the tier list is influenced too much by bw players. i don't think people use lucario enough to understand how it obliterates most of these newer dpp teams single-handedly, with 99% of people using a pursuit weak scarf rotom as the only real check.
it depends from ur frame of reference. imo the list should reflect a setting like smogtour / more 'ladder-based' setting which rewards more solid teams and overall consistency. lucario is hella more threatenin in a tour like spl or wcop upon which u can prep for ur oppo and typically be more Balls To The Walls since its a bo1 and u can throw in hella gimmicks / use less reliable teams for the reward of goin ham. ur match vs pana wasn't particularly telling of lucario's effectiveness b.c. u also used an equally yolo squad with holes that it broke through. there are very few lucario squads that are consistent out of a bo1 environment. starmie is like the face of the bulky offensive metagame and it'd be silly to not make it s imo; it's just so good at what it does and so common for a good reason. i do agree dnite shouldn't be a+ tho.
Here are my thoughts:
Forretress is really nowhere near as good as anything else in A. It needs to drop to A- at absolute minimum. It's a lot harder to spin than starmie and you have to boom to stop some stuff setting up which sucks a bit. I kind of even want to put this in B+. I just feel so naked when i use forretress BLEH.
Zapdos probably doesn't deserve S. It's really really good but not really as defining as anything else in S. A+, and one of the better A+ers, but i'd say A+ nevertheless.
Breloom should drop to A. Vs some teams it will wreck, vs others it will die without doing anything and vs others it will get 1 sleep and then not really do much. Too inconsistent for A+. I'd make it A.
Infernape should go to A+. Infernape is an absolute terror and is really a nightmare to play around even when you try and prepare for it well. Most teams are infernape weak in some form because ape is just that good.
Lucario either needs to go to A+ or Dragonite needs to go to A. I agree that dragonite is not better than lucario.
Crobat needs to drop. I haven't seen a good crobat team in aaaages and there's just so many natural checks to it with ttar / jirachi / heatran / rotom being everywhere. It's not bad, but I'd drop it to B+ because it definitely needs a bit of support to work well compared to some other stuff in A.
I would probably bump clefable up to B+. Both the support set and CM are pretty effective. No real reason, I just subjectively think it's more B+ than B.
Uxie needs to be in B somewhere. C+ is really underrating Uxie. As a lead it actually has pretty few horrible matchups, and it seems not insignificantly better than everything else in C+. I'd actually want to put it as B, but if people think that's too high of a jump at least B-.
Mesprit needs to rise to C+ for the same reason. It's better than everything else in C by a not insignificant margin.
I'd probably bump weavile up to B. It's very threatening and can just straight up wreck some teams.
Empoleon up to A and blissey down to A- doesn't sound horrible to me either but I don't have a really strong opinion on either.
(I think starmie deserves S for sure).
Forretress is really nowhere near as good as anything else in A. It needs to drop to A- at absolute minimum. It's a lot harder to spin than starmie and you have to boom to stop some stuff setting up which sucks a bit. I kind of even want to put this in B+. I just feel so naked when i use forretress BLEH.
Zapdos probably doesn't deserve S. It's really really good but not really as defining as anything else in S. A+, and one of the better A+ers, but i'd say A+ nevertheless.
Breloom should drop to A. Vs some teams it will wreck, vs others it will die without doing anything and vs others it will get 1 sleep and then not really do much. Too inconsistent for A+. I'd make it A.
Infernape should go to A+. Infernape is an absolute terror and is really a nightmare to play around even when you try and prepare for it well. Most teams are infernape weak in some form because ape is just that good.
Lucario either needs to go to A+ or Dragonite needs to go to A. I agree that dragonite is not better than lucario.
Crobat needs to drop. I haven't seen a good crobat team in aaaages and there's just so many natural checks to it with ttar / jirachi / heatran / rotom being everywhere. It's not bad, but I'd drop it to B+ because it definitely needs a bit of support to work well compared to some other stuff in A.
I would probably bump clefable up to B+. Both the support set and CM are pretty effective. No real reason, I just subjectively think it's more B+ than B.
Uxie needs to be in B somewhere. C+ is really underrating Uxie. As a lead it actually has pretty few horrible matchups, and it seems not insignificantly better than everything else in C+. I'd actually want to put it as B, but if people think that's too high of a jump at least B-.
Mesprit needs to rise to C+ for the same reason. It's better than everything else in C by a not insignificant margin.
I'd probably bump weavile up to B. It's very threatening and can just straight up wreck some teams.
Empoleon up to A and blissey down to A- doesn't sound horrible to me either but I don't have a really strong opinion on either.
(I think starmie deserves S for sure).
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i think swampert should be A. it's an amazing glue in a lot offensive teams thanks to its ability to switch on zapdos / to check DDnite, DDttar, AgilyGross / to switch into almost every scarf of the tier (especially scarftran). i admit its maybe not the best SR setter in universe since foretress and (defensive) starmie have an easy spin against it but you can pair it rotom-a / tyranitar / skarmory if you really want to keep your rocks on the field. swampert can be less effective than hippowdon sometimes i gotta agree but it has the advantage to be way less passive imo.
I think raikou should at least be in b+ in lead viablity rankings. Thanks to its super effective coverage and its decent bulk, it deals massive damage even without a life orb and can survive some super effective moves like earthquake from aerodactyl, tyranitar or nidoqueen, allowing him to win his duel against most of the current leads (Actually hippodown and swampert are the only ones who never lose against raikou), especially zapdos which is one of the scarier anti-lead in my opinion.
It's still threatening during midgame with its coverage and powerful atks and can even act as a one time check to breloom if the lum was not used earlier.
All in all, it's a lead with flaws (it can't prevent sr nor setting them up) but great at doing its job: killing the opponent's lead.
It's still threatening during midgame with its coverage and powerful atks and can even act as a one time check to breloom if the lum was not used earlier.
All in all, it's a lead with flaws (it can't prevent sr nor setting them up) but great at doing its job: killing the opponent's lead.
Starmie should definitely stay S, it's such an important poke to be able to deal with and I'd argue people crutch on it at least as much as they do ttar.
Zapdos is incredible. If you're running an offensive team without ttar, chances are you are absolutely throttled by zap and even tar isn't all that safe against those scarily powerful thunderbolts. It has a ton of different sets it can use and those few matchups where it runs into its hard walls can be mitigated by uturn + the smallest bit of team support. Rocks aren't the end of the world. Keep it in S.
I wouldn't be opposed to dropping Rotom-A, as 'wrong' as it might feel at first. It's an amazing poke obviously but some teams can't help but crutch on it a little too much and that gets taken advantage of really easily.
I agree Lucario should be A+ and that it's criminally underprepared for, especially with all the bulkless Gliscor running around. I wouldn't say it is or ever has been inconsistent outside a tour environment at all. Dragonite shouldn't drop though, there are few things more consistently terrifying than him.
Breloom will almost always do something useful, I've never had issues with its consistency. It does so many amazing things in one slot with its typing/ability. Plus, with mach punch you cover some really terrifying guys, ddtar/agili emp/agili luc/lategame scarftran. And a Breloom weakness is one of the worst ones you can have. A+ pls.
Uxie is cool, while it obviously is great against offense it can have some utility against stall with uturn (this will really punish the people who are super anal about immediately spinning with starmie) or trickscarf if you want to go that far, it needs to be wary of ttar but the threat of twave lingers and a pursuit on the switch does't even kill. Plus it beats Machamp and Roserade leads. B is good.
I really like Mesprit, might even be B- material.
I agree about Infernape, Empoleon, Crobat and Forretress.
Not so much about Blissey, gotta respect the threat of how near of an auto-win it is against a lot of these teams that overload on powerful special attackers and don't even bother to have a plan for taking it out of the game.
Same with Weavile, it's a little too high maintenance imo although I agree that in certain games it's extremely frightening.
As much as I'm a Hippowdon guy through and through, I agree with boudouche's points about Swampert. To add on, the fire resist (although this will be trouble if the only other one is a choiced ttar when facing an hp grass tran), water neutrality and especially ice beam for Gliscor are really crucial factors that seperate it from hippo. The lack of recovery is really obnoxious sometimes and prevents it from being the near-auto-win machine that Bliss and Hippo sometimes are but on occasion you'll get some solid roars going against an offensive team that struggles to really dent it and you're in business.
I agree with Loic about lead Raikou. Kou as a whole could probably move up a bit, scarf isn't too great anymore and it's been a while since I last saw subcm, although I don't doubt it could surprise some people. However shuca cm, especially with rash, is extremely powerful. Could make use of funky stuff like charge beam, specs and restalk as well.
edit; I forgot to mention clefable, which owns although I think I like the support sets a bit more. B+ is good
Zapdos is incredible. If you're running an offensive team without ttar, chances are you are absolutely throttled by zap and even tar isn't all that safe against those scarily powerful thunderbolts. It has a ton of different sets it can use and those few matchups where it runs into its hard walls can be mitigated by uturn + the smallest bit of team support. Rocks aren't the end of the world. Keep it in S.
I wouldn't be opposed to dropping Rotom-A, as 'wrong' as it might feel at first. It's an amazing poke obviously but some teams can't help but crutch on it a little too much and that gets taken advantage of really easily.
I agree Lucario should be A+ and that it's criminally underprepared for, especially with all the bulkless Gliscor running around. I wouldn't say it is or ever has been inconsistent outside a tour environment at all. Dragonite shouldn't drop though, there are few things more consistently terrifying than him.
Breloom will almost always do something useful, I've never had issues with its consistency. It does so many amazing things in one slot with its typing/ability. Plus, with mach punch you cover some really terrifying guys, ddtar/agili emp/agili luc/lategame scarftran. And a Breloom weakness is one of the worst ones you can have. A+ pls.
Uxie is cool, while it obviously is great against offense it can have some utility against stall with uturn (this will really punish the people who are super anal about immediately spinning with starmie) or trickscarf if you want to go that far, it needs to be wary of ttar but the threat of twave lingers and a pursuit on the switch does't even kill. Plus it beats Machamp and Roserade leads. B is good.
I really like Mesprit, might even be B- material.
I agree about Infernape, Empoleon, Crobat and Forretress.
Not so much about Blissey, gotta respect the threat of how near of an auto-win it is against a lot of these teams that overload on powerful special attackers and don't even bother to have a plan for taking it out of the game.
Same with Weavile, it's a little too high maintenance imo although I agree that in certain games it's extremely frightening.
As much as I'm a Hippowdon guy through and through, I agree with boudouche's points about Swampert. To add on, the fire resist (although this will be trouble if the only other one is a choiced ttar when facing an hp grass tran), water neutrality and especially ice beam for Gliscor are really crucial factors that seperate it from hippo. The lack of recovery is really obnoxious sometimes and prevents it from being the near-auto-win machine that Bliss and Hippo sometimes are but on occasion you'll get some solid roars going against an offensive team that struggles to really dent it and you're in business.
I agree with Loic about lead Raikou. Kou as a whole could probably move up a bit, scarf isn't too great anymore and it's been a while since I last saw subcm, although I don't doubt it could surprise some people. However shuca cm, especially with rash, is extremely powerful. Could make use of funky stuff like charge beam, specs and restalk as well.
edit; I forgot to mention clefable, which owns although I think I like the support sets a bit more. B+ is good
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Starmie is S, no question.
Drop Rotom-A to A+. It's great, but not flawless (doesn't take damage exceedingly well with the HP).
I don't know why Lucario was ever in A, as it has coverage for everything. Whether it Swords Dances or Close Combats, it's doing key damage even to physical walls. If it gets forced out early, you can try again and catch their switch with a different move. Move up to A+.
Lower Forretress to A-. I honestly think it's just been pushed around too long. I used it a ton back in the day, and while nobody does the entire hazards game like it with that great typing, I just can't stand the lack of recovery. Worse case than Swampert (who shouldn't be raised in my opinion).
Right now, Zapdos has gotten back on top of its game, so I don't think it's a bad look with s high ranking. It's got a lot going for it right now in the metagame and busts cores up if you manage its health.
Drop Rotom-A to A+. It's great, but not flawless (doesn't take damage exceedingly well with the HP).
I don't know why Lucario was ever in A, as it has coverage for everything. Whether it Swords Dances or Close Combats, it's doing key damage even to physical walls. If it gets forced out early, you can try again and catch their switch with a different move. Move up to A+.
Lower Forretress to A-. I honestly think it's just been pushed around too long. I used it a ton back in the day, and while nobody does the entire hazards game like it with that great typing, I just can't stand the lack of recovery. Worse case than Swampert (who shouldn't be raised in my opinion).
Right now, Zapdos has gotten back on top of its game, so I don't think it's a bad look with s high ranking. It's got a lot going for it right now in the metagame and busts cores up if you manage its health.
jirachi and tyranitar are the best pokemon in the tier. perhaps they need their own rank.
starmie is not as relied upon by most trainers as it used to be. neither me nor bkc brought it during the DP cup finals, and i'm pretty sure PDC didn't either. there are some guys who still cannot build teams without it though. it is hard to compare its effectiveness against pokes performing different roles but it has just as much a right to be S as heatran and rotom-a.
i don't think zapdos is S rank. if u get him in then he is gonna do work vs particular squads. this is why he's mostly seen (and most effective) as a lead. i just find there are times where the dude is just overwhelmed against certain offenses (e.g. somalian type squads) if sr is up and is just hard-walled by most staller squads. it is very effective when paired with breloom (a sometimes necessary addition to take advantage of the ground types zap is walled by) and starmie for spinner support. this is why i think he's A+, cause he only starts being super good when u have something to abuse the swampert/blissey he's getting walled by.
forretress is pretty awful right now. u can't rely on it to spin. it can easily get a few layers but it is really hard pressed to spin against pretty much everything, so there's little reason to not use skarmory over him. he and crobat should definitely pop down to B+.
blissey is a poke that is A rank. it is the best pokemon at setting SR and maintaining it over the course of a game. u can switch into starmie and provided u have twave/toxic, u are getting SR up as starmie runs from u. it can throw down SR vs literally anything without high powered phys fighting/explode, and doesn't have to be wary about a stray hp grass. it has so much utility against offensive squads, but u must use 252/252 bold to take advantage of it. recently my twave bliss managed to run through tesung's gyarados/metagross/ttar and just won via recover stall waiting for the paralysis. this is what it does before u even consider that spec attackers without taunt or a boosting move are never gonna beat it, even from 50%. this is another thing i like about blissey. say u come in on a cune hpump and it crits u and you're down to 60%. u decide to sr as it runs. u are forced out of the metagross or w/e. blissey can still come back in again and beat suicune from 48%. other pokes just cannot do that.
breloom is probably deserving of its rank. i think u are only thinking about the subpunch set panamaxis. it has a couple more effective sets that are 'more reliable' against all matchups. 100% acc sleep on a poke with that attack stat is hard to ignore as well
my opinion on lucario is that it is alright. a solid A rank poke. i feel like there's too many pokes hovering around late-game that can stop it. like jirachi and infernape and nite and gyarados and then their scarfer if they've conserved it. against a weakened squad i prefer metagross. he's gonna get room to set up and isn't stopped by the aforementioned pokes (but obviously has his own problems against slower squads). lucario is better when u are getting it in early after setting SR and spamming CC to find their fight resists and creating holes. this is a job which i think infernape is more suited to. maybe i just structure my teams in such a way that i'm never lucario weak, but i just find the dude not that threatening. i would much rather see lucario than metagross who has the boom threat or infernape who can 2hko every poke in the tier, and can outrun 90% of it.
i actually think gyarados is better than lucario as well. u know what it is gonna do but half the time u can't stop it. maybe it is cause i have so many teams without water resists. i respect nite as a pokemon but i rarely find room for it on my squads. the mix set always does work if it gets in though.
curious to hear opinions on 'who is better' out of infernape, gyarados, lucario, dragonite and metagross. nice to see some discussion & some disagreements too
starmie is not as relied upon by most trainers as it used to be. neither me nor bkc brought it during the DP cup finals, and i'm pretty sure PDC didn't either. there are some guys who still cannot build teams without it though. it is hard to compare its effectiveness against pokes performing different roles but it has just as much a right to be S as heatran and rotom-a.
i don't think zapdos is S rank. if u get him in then he is gonna do work vs particular squads. this is why he's mostly seen (and most effective) as a lead. i just find there are times where the dude is just overwhelmed against certain offenses (e.g. somalian type squads) if sr is up and is just hard-walled by most staller squads. it is very effective when paired with breloom (a sometimes necessary addition to take advantage of the ground types zap is walled by) and starmie for spinner support. this is why i think he's A+, cause he only starts being super good when u have something to abuse the swampert/blissey he's getting walled by.
forretress is pretty awful right now. u can't rely on it to spin. it can easily get a few layers but it is really hard pressed to spin against pretty much everything, so there's little reason to not use skarmory over him. he and crobat should definitely pop down to B+.
blissey is a poke that is A rank. it is the best pokemon at setting SR and maintaining it over the course of a game. u can switch into starmie and provided u have twave/toxic, u are getting SR up as starmie runs from u. it can throw down SR vs literally anything without high powered phys fighting/explode, and doesn't have to be wary about a stray hp grass. it has so much utility against offensive squads, but u must use 252/252 bold to take advantage of it. recently my twave bliss managed to run through tesung's gyarados/metagross/ttar and just won via recover stall waiting for the paralysis. this is what it does before u even consider that spec attackers without taunt or a boosting move are never gonna beat it, even from 50%. this is another thing i like about blissey. say u come in on a cune hpump and it crits u and you're down to 60%. u decide to sr as it runs. u are forced out of the metagross or w/e. blissey can still come back in again and beat suicune from 48%. other pokes just cannot do that.
breloom is probably deserving of its rank. i think u are only thinking about the subpunch set panamaxis. it has a couple more effective sets that are 'more reliable' against all matchups. 100% acc sleep on a poke with that attack stat is hard to ignore as well
my opinion on lucario is that it is alright. a solid A rank poke. i feel like there's too many pokes hovering around late-game that can stop it. like jirachi and infernape and nite and gyarados and then their scarfer if they've conserved it. against a weakened squad i prefer metagross. he's gonna get room to set up and isn't stopped by the aforementioned pokes (but obviously has his own problems against slower squads). lucario is better when u are getting it in early after setting SR and spamming CC to find their fight resists and creating holes. this is a job which i think infernape is more suited to. maybe i just structure my teams in such a way that i'm never lucario weak, but i just find the dude not that threatening. i would much rather see lucario than metagross who has the boom threat or infernape who can 2hko every poke in the tier, and can outrun 90% of it.
i actually think gyarados is better than lucario as well. u know what it is gonna do but half the time u can't stop it. maybe it is cause i have so many teams without water resists. i respect nite as a pokemon but i rarely find room for it on my squads. the mix set always does work if it gets in though.
curious to hear opinions on 'who is better' out of infernape, gyarados, lucario, dragonite and metagross. nice to see some discussion & some disagreements too
i'd rank those 5 guys at the end of ur post as follows:
1. ape - he does a shit ton of work at the beginning of games and thru the middle and even toward the end if u preserve him. finding fight resists, scouting w/ uturn, etc.
2. dnite - a monster if it gets in w/o dying. one of the best wallbreakers in da game.
3. gyara - doesnt even have to set up to be threatening, only rly checked by rotom and zap and those are worn down v easily.
4. gross - super strong and can run a lot of sets. band, agility, scarf, lead, etc. finds a lot of opportunities to set up/attack/do whatever.
5. luc - kinda requires more support than the rest of the mons imo. super threatening and will win games w/ 1 free turn.
tbh i might just be a lil biased since i love ape, nite, and gyara but i think this is a nice list. ape is the most threatening out of the bunch just due to it's speed and lack of a need to set up to do work. just my onion.
1. ape - he does a shit ton of work at the beginning of games and thru the middle and even toward the end if u preserve him. finding fight resists, scouting w/ uturn, etc.
2. dnite - a monster if it gets in w/o dying. one of the best wallbreakers in da game.
3. gyara - doesnt even have to set up to be threatening, only rly checked by rotom and zap and those are worn down v easily.
4. gross - super strong and can run a lot of sets. band, agility, scarf, lead, etc. finds a lot of opportunities to set up/attack/do whatever.
5. luc - kinda requires more support than the rest of the mons imo. super threatening and will win games w/ 1 free turn.
tbh i might just be a lil biased since i love ape, nite, and gyara but i think this is a nice list. ape is the most threatening out of the bunch just due to it's speed and lack of a need to set up to do work. just my onion.
I think you guys are being way too harsh on forry. Maybe A is too high but A- seems fair to me, simply because of how much pressure the dude puts on hazard stack teams. Combining spiking and spinning in one mon is just fantastic against those. They're forced to go into their rotom because of the threat of spin, whereas if you used skarm they could go to starmie and threaten to spin your stuff. If the rotom is scarf it won't like switching into paybacks either. It also spikes decently against offense squads. Sure it doesn't wall as much as skarm but that's not why you would use forry.
About pert: I think the reason it was ranked A- in the first place is because hippo was A. I think hippo is better in general on defensive teams, while pert is better on more offensive ones. But offensive teams don't need a bulky ground as much as defensive teams. I agree that pert is a really good pokemon though and I'm fine with A, so if more people want it to move up I'll move it.
Nice to see discussion in this thread, I'll try and update it soon @_@
About pert: I think the reason it was ranked A- in the first place is because hippo was A. I think hippo is better in general on defensive teams, while pert is better on more offensive ones. But offensive teams don't need a bulky ground as much as defensive teams. I agree that pert is a really good pokemon though and I'm fine with A, so if more people want it to move up I'll move it.
Nice to see discussion in this thread, I'll try and update it soon @_@
I've always felt that forry's a 50/50 when spinning against teams where Rotom is unrevealed (obviously if based on revealed mons, it seems like he might have a Rotom in the back); Payback does a nice chunk to any non-RestTalk variant (which basically completely walls forry to hell and back) while spinning really helps relieve pressure, while Spin gets rid of the hazards; mispredicting on that turn can really cost the forry user a lot of momentum and means he'll have to try to get in forry later to spin again; it gets worn down pretty easily so it won't even be able to come in that often. Also, Forry is immediately pressured by a lot of stuff such as Infernape, Heatran, Zapdos and co. so if the hazards aren't cleared, offensive teams get mauled while defensive teams also don't like having, say, an SR + Spike on their side. Explosion is a nice tool for DD Gyarados and a myriad of setup sweepers, but means that your team won't be able to remove any further hazards throughout the game. It's just really easily pressured and has a hard time spinning, although it's a staple for playstyles like stall, so I'd say B+ sounds pretty perfect for it.
Agree with Heist post, maybe Jirachi and Tyranitar for his own S Rank and drop Starmie, Rotom, Zapdos and Heatran to A+ Rank (or A++ Rank).
I think also Flygon needs to raise to A+ Rank; all his sets are great.
I think also Flygon needs to raise to A+ Rank; all his sets are great.
I think there needs to be an S+ and S-. Tyranitar answers so much of the tier and so is straightforward to implement and use that it deserves to be in its own rank. It almost got 50% usage in the latest tour which is in a league of its own compared to the other S's who were all in the 30's.
If there's any reason why people are looking down on Lucario, that's because it's the most over prepared for mon in the game. I prepare for it more than anything else, just because it's one of the two most deadly sweepers in the game, and even then an Agility set can catch you out. Definitely A+ for sure. On the flipside, Gyarados is rarely prepared for and thus gets away with massacring so many teams (this crime is usually committed by people who didn't start off playing DPP). The DD LO set is powerful and it's good at drawing out the Rotom-A's and Zapdos, working hand-in-hand with Tyranitar. Another solid A+. I'd probably put Gyarados a little bit ahead of Lucario, just because Lucario has more stable answers that are relevant in the metagame.
Infernape is shining right now. Both Mix and CB sets are really effective. More people are catching onto how good Agility Empoleon is, and Infernape is one of the few mons who can actually threaten it with CB Mach Punch once it's got the Agility up. On the subject of Empoleon, I believe it should be A+. Like Gyarados, it's criminally under prepared for and ends up sweeping so many teams by itself. Even if it doesn't, it punches big holes in the mid-game, leaving something else to clean up.
Crobat is suffering with the increase in Zapdos leads, and I haven't seen a good team with it in ages. Drop. As for Zapdos, I'm split. It's not as metagame defining as the rest of the S tier, but I can't shake off the feeling that it's one of the big reasons why Tyranitar is so popular.
I'm not too keen on Dragonite. I used to like it as an attacking lead but I'm starting to lean towards SR-setting mons again. I also feel like it's sweeping set is not as good as Gyarados'.
What's the reason for Azelf to not be in A+? I always find it to be a lead that does its job well enough.
Weavile is kinda cool, he deserves to be in B.
If there's any reason why people are looking down on Lucario, that's because it's the most over prepared for mon in the game. I prepare for it more than anything else, just because it's one of the two most deadly sweepers in the game, and even then an Agility set can catch you out. Definitely A+ for sure. On the flipside, Gyarados is rarely prepared for and thus gets away with massacring so many teams (this crime is usually committed by people who didn't start off playing DPP). The DD LO set is powerful and it's good at drawing out the Rotom-A's and Zapdos, working hand-in-hand with Tyranitar. Another solid A+. I'd probably put Gyarados a little bit ahead of Lucario, just because Lucario has more stable answers that are relevant in the metagame.
Infernape is shining right now. Both Mix and CB sets are really effective. More people are catching onto how good Agility Empoleon is, and Infernape is one of the few mons who can actually threaten it with CB Mach Punch once it's got the Agility up. On the subject of Empoleon, I believe it should be A+. Like Gyarados, it's criminally under prepared for and ends up sweeping so many teams by itself. Even if it doesn't, it punches big holes in the mid-game, leaving something else to clean up.
Crobat is suffering with the increase in Zapdos leads, and I haven't seen a good team with it in ages. Drop. As for Zapdos, I'm split. It's not as metagame defining as the rest of the S tier, but I can't shake off the feeling that it's one of the big reasons why Tyranitar is so popular.
I'm not too keen on Dragonite. I used to like it as an attacking lead but I'm starting to lean towards SR-setting mons again. I also feel like it's sweeping set is not as good as Gyarados'.
What's the reason for Azelf to not be in A+? I always find it to be a lead that does its job well enough.
Weavile is kinda cool, he deserves to be in B.
Is not like the metagame is controlled or even centralized around Tyranitar (and certainly not Jirachi). They don't need their own rank.
I agree that Tyranitar itself isn't centralising. It just slots into so many teams as it's one of the few mons who can check the biggest special-based mons in OU all-in-one (Rotom-A, Starmie, Zapdos, Heatran, Gengar), especially on an offensive team. There's nothing else in the tier that can do that.
The fact that it always seems to get a much higher usage than anything else is a testament to that too (56% usage in SPL 6, the next highest was Starmie at 44%).
The fact that it always seems to get a much higher usage than anything else is a testament to that too (56% usage in SPL 6, the next highest was Starmie at 44%).
Rofl I left for a few days and discussion just flared up.
Anyways: Nape and Luke for A+ (I actually mentioned Nape going up a page back but everyone laughed at me), Breloom and Dragonite should stay A+ though as both are actually really consistent at wrecking face and provide decent defensive utility. Gyara, Flygon and Gar could go too though I don't care so much about it: Gyara is a ridiculous sweeper that manages to always own its checks (while checking Infernape and Breloom), Flygon is a really solid revenger/heavy hitter that doubles as a Zapdos check for offense (especially cause so many of them are packing HP Grass). Gengar is the last cause its always been fun for me to use, but seriously it checks Fighters solidly, and hits a lot of teams hard (especially with my new set that allows you to get past ScarfTar, Zor and SpDef Jira)
Clefable is nice and B+ could work for it. Forre could drop to the same rank as it has always underwhelmed me.
Pert and Emp could be A, both are pretty strong. Pert in particular has always reminded me of an offensive Hippowdon, with the ability to take hits and hit back harder. Checks Zap and DDTar which is huge, while their favorite partner Breloom doesn't capitalise on it so much now since Specs is a thing. Emp is a lethel sweeper that can play some other roles too, like Leading, Gyara checking etc.
Don't have strong opinions on anything else except this one: Crobat staying in A- (cue the laughter). No but seriously, Crobat is a really cool mon with a more or less unique niche that happens to be very important in this metagame: checking every common Fighting type in this metagame (which is huge when considering the only thing they really have in common is STAB, threat factor and ability to wreck the Balanced/Semi-Stall teams that I for one think Crobat fits really well on). I would post more but I'm short on time and the statement above just really sums up my argument (it also wrecks Grasses and checks a few other fastmons like Gengar, while not being as ruined by TTar, Tran, Zap etc. as everyone makes it out to be). Also Super Fang is just so ravaging to a lot of mons, especially offensive teams who really hate losing so much of their lifespan in one move.
Anyways: Nape and Luke for A+ (I actually mentioned Nape going up a page back but everyone laughed at me), Breloom and Dragonite should stay A+ though as both are actually really consistent at wrecking face and provide decent defensive utility. Gyara, Flygon and Gar could go too though I don't care so much about it: Gyara is a ridiculous sweeper that manages to always own its checks (while checking Infernape and Breloom), Flygon is a really solid revenger/heavy hitter that doubles as a Zapdos check for offense (especially cause so many of them are packing HP Grass). Gengar is the last cause its always been fun for me to use, but seriously it checks Fighters solidly, and hits a lot of teams hard (especially with my new set that allows you to get past ScarfTar, Zor and SpDef Jira)
Clefable is nice and B+ could work for it. Forre could drop to the same rank as it has always underwhelmed me.
Pert and Emp could be A, both are pretty strong. Pert in particular has always reminded me of an offensive Hippowdon, with the ability to take hits and hit back harder. Checks Zap and DDTar which is huge, while their favorite partner Breloom doesn't capitalise on it so much now since Specs is a thing. Emp is a lethel sweeper that can play some other roles too, like Leading, Gyara checking etc.
Don't have strong opinions on anything else except this one: Crobat staying in A- (cue the laughter). No but seriously, Crobat is a really cool mon with a more or less unique niche that happens to be very important in this metagame: checking every common Fighting type in this metagame (which is huge when considering the only thing they really have in common is STAB, threat factor and ability to wreck the Balanced/Semi-Stall teams that I for one think Crobat fits really well on). I would post more but I'm short on time and the statement above just really sums up my argument (it also wrecks Grasses and checks a few other fastmons like Gengar, while not being as ruined by TTar, Tran, Zap etc. as everyone makes it out to be). Also Super Fang is just so ravaging to a lot of mons, especially offensive teams who really hate losing so much of their lifespan in one move.
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I wouldn't mind a B+ for Crobat, but no lower. Breaks stall as well as Aerodactyl (SubRoost) does and switches in on a lot of stuff, especially if rocks are gone. All Pokemon that would like to switch into it are liable to be hit with either Taunt or Super Fang (the latter is just devastating for a would-be counter), then turns momentum in your favor with U-Turn. The only thing it really hates are fast scarfers which fucks it over if it stays in.
crobat's niche is countering grass with a side of momentum, "stallbreaking", and even cleaning vs certain offense. it's cool that it can still be risk-free productive while clicking uturn vs its prey with say a commonly paired skarm in the wings. crobat spike was certainly a viable noob killer when standards were different. some more latent attributes of its niche are taking momentum off the starm/ape/gar speed tier and the last poke taunt, both of which are especially valuable for the fat surrounded crevices it finds refuge in. funnily enough, u do not slap crobat on to deal with fighter dudes.
crobat is b+ because it simply cannot do any of its jobs effectively without owning the hazard war from both angles. tack on that it has to run vs s tier and u can see why it isn't a staple mon at all. it demands certain support so bad that potent bat squads often look quite similar. admittedly, this support is very doable as crobat flaps among a typical starm tar skarm network p smoothly, but the issue is u will face a lot of sickeningly prediction reliant matchups of ur hazard core vs theirs. extremely annoying when they can fiddle with their sdef tran vs u, altho that mon kind of died as ppl realized it wasn't good enough vs electrics (i guess).
look up tv rocka's famous team to see crobat done wrong. or mdragon's tour team if it's still available to see it done right.
crobat is b+ because it simply cannot do any of its jobs effectively without owning the hazard war from both angles. tack on that it has to run vs s tier and u can see why it isn't a staple mon at all. it demands certain support so bad that potent bat squads often look quite similar. admittedly, this support is very doable as crobat flaps among a typical starm tar skarm network p smoothly, but the issue is u will face a lot of sickeningly prediction reliant matchups of ur hazard core vs theirs. extremely annoying when they can fiddle with their sdef tran vs u, altho that mon kind of died as ppl realized it wasn't good enough vs electrics (i guess).
look up tv rocka's famous team to see crobat done wrong. or mdragon's tour team if it's still available to see it done right.
Crobat is also inferior to most of the A- Rank listed mons (Suicune, Machamp, Roserade, Swampert, Kingdra) which are easier to fit on any kind of team. So unless you rise all of them to A Rank just drop Crobat to B+ Rank, belongs to the same Abomasnow, Nidoqueen level (B+).
I feel like flygon is one of those mons that's consistently pretty good, but nothing out of this world amazing. A seems good to me. I do think pert is really good but I kind of like having hippowdon be a subtier higher than it cos I think pert is one of those dudes where it's like 'damn my team is so weak to scarftran that I need that water typing or i'm dead' or 'man I really don't sandstorm damage because it'll wear down my ape/gengar too quickly, pert > hippo it is'. I think pert is very good, but I feel that most of the time hippowdon is a little bit better as the role of "bulky SRing ground" except in specific circumstances where the water typing is crucial or you reaaaaaally don't want sandstorm (but your odds of running into an opposing ttar anyway are pretty high...) and I like the fact that this is reflected by hippo being a subtier higher in the rankings. Reliable recovery move is so. damn. good. and that alone I feel pushes it a subtier above pert, but no higher.
Also i disagree that jirachi and tyranitar are the best pokemon in the game. They both have a ton of utility but I don't think they're special enough to be distinct from starmie and heatran at least.
Infernape
- gap -
gyarados lucario dragonite are all about the same
- gap -
metagross
When we include stuff like ability to revenge kill infernape and lucario (oh and dragonite if you're running ES now that i think about it) rise a bit. Then the others rise when we consider the defensive resistances they can bring to a team. I think at the end of the day the list ends up being something like Ape as the clear best and then the other 4 are all pretty close. The reason i say this is at the start of the match if I have my full squad i probably have pretty decent answers to the other 4, but when ape comes out it's goddamn terrifying when you don't know what set it is, because it can easily do anything and if you predict wrong without knowing the set you're just dead (and the lack of needing to set up). You can argue something similar for dragonite but at least its main STAB moves (draco / outrage) have notable drawbacks that ape doesn't really have. The SR weakness isn't insignificant either.
Also i disagree that jirachi and tyranitar are the best pokemon in the game. They both have a ton of utility but I don't think they're special enough to be distinct from starmie and heatran at least.
If we're just talking about breaking stuff open (their offensive utility)
Infernape
- gap -
gyarados lucario dragonite are all about the same
- gap -
metagross
When we include stuff like ability to revenge kill infernape and lucario (oh and dragonite if you're running ES now that i think about it) rise a bit. Then the others rise when we consider the defensive resistances they can bring to a team. I think at the end of the day the list ends up being something like Ape as the clear best and then the other 4 are all pretty close. The reason i say this is at the start of the match if I have my full squad i probably have pretty decent answers to the other 4, but when ape comes out it's goddamn terrifying when you don't know what set it is, because it can easily do anything and if you predict wrong without knowing the set you're just dead (and the lack of needing to set up). You can argue something similar for dragonite but at least its main STAB moves (draco / outrage) have notable drawbacks that ape doesn't really have. The SR weakness isn't insignificant either.
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