CAP 24 CAP 24 - Part 2 - Typing Discussion

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Although I agree with practically everything HeaL said, I do think that we shouldn't fall into the trap of abusing weather for abusing's sake. Rock/Fire are the clearest direct abusers of our target weathers, yes. However, if they come with detriments that will hurt CAP more than the respective abuse would help them, in the long term they're actually making the 'mon in question less likely to function in a weather team.

I think we can make our 'mon very clearly pro-sun and pro-sand in the ability and movepool stages even with a typing that doesn't gain any innate benefits from the weather in question. Moves like the Solars (though those are of debatable usage imo), Shore Up, etc. could make it so CAP24 wants to play off-type within the weathers, and if it isn't a Sandstorm-immune type then I'd say there's fairly high odds it'll get a Sandstorm-immune ability.

Furthermore, the concept isn't just about seeing how many abuse mechanics we can stack on one 'mon. It's also about helping Sun and Sand, so if we make a CAP24 that dies to the things that already destroy Sun and Sand I'd say we'd be failing our concept.
 
I am going to preface this suggestion by saying that I don't have any experience in the CAP metagame, but I have read every post in this thread and have some experience in regular OU.

Rock/Bug
Weaknesses: Rock, Steel, Water
Resistances: Normal, Posion

Offensive Coverage(against Pokemon from S, A+, and A ranks):
Not very effective against: Magearna, Arghonaut, Mawile
Neutral Against: Landorus-T, Tomohawk, Celesteela, Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele, Zygarde, Crucibelle, Ferrothorn, Medicham
Super effective against: Greninja, Volkraken, Aurumoth, Blacephalon, M-Charizard Y, Colossoil, Pinsir, Syclant, Tapu Bulu, Volcarona
Bolded names were ones that have been frequently brought up as threats for sun and sand teams.

Pros:
- Sp.D boost in sand
- Immune to sandstorm damage
- Pretty good STAB coverage
- Few weaknesses
- Rock hits most fire types pretty hard

Cons:
- Water weakness(probably the biggest con for this typing)
- Few Resistances
- STAB moves not boosted in sun(ie no Fire or solar move STAB)
- No Fire resistance
Rock/Bug doesn't hit Bulu super effectively. Fairy resists Bug, making it a neutral hit.

I can hardly see this type work at all, to be honest; while Bug and Rock on their own are decent ideas for this concept, pairing them gives a bad defensive and an average offensive typing. Who cares if you hit Ash-Greninja super effectively if it Hydro Pumps you into oblivion, even with Sand and Sun's defensive benefits. Not to mention the SR weakness too. The two types cover most of each other's weaknesses pretty well, but that goes into reverse as well: most of their nice resistances (like Bug's to Ground and Fighting, and Rock's to Fire) are undone.

Lastly, while it CAN work, I see little reason to use it over other typings, to be honest. Dragon/Flying, for example, hits most of the threats you mentioned, except for Volkraken, AshGren and Colossoil; Volkraken and Colossoil die to repeated strong neutral hits and Gren is a glass cannon. Furthermore, Dragon/Flying hits Tomohawk and Arghonaut super-effectively at the cost of being hard-walled by Celes and Skarm with only its STABs, but it's almost inevitable that it's going to get Fire coverate in the Movepool stage. Unlike Rock/Bug, Dragon/Flying is also pretty good defensively, resisting Water and Fighting, and being immune to Ground, along with other handy resistances like Bug, Grass and Fire.
 

DetroitLolcat

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HeaLnDeaL said:
So, back to how CAP can directly synergize with Sun/Sand. Really, I think having at least one of our typings benefit directly from at least one of the weathers is important. People have already mentioned the Rock-type's ability to boost Sp.Def in the sand so I won't talk too much about that other than say I think it's pretty cool boost the merits consideration. Some people have also mentioned the Grass-type's ability to use Solarbeam, Solar Blade, and Weather Ball in the sun but have argued that Power Whip is just a better, more reliable version on Solar Blade. For the most part this logic holds true, but on the special side there's really no hard hitting equivalent of Power Whip that isn't legendary exclusive, which does leave Solarbeam with a potential niche. Solarbeam isn't uncommon on the Drought setter Zard Y, and if CAP itself can set Sun then I think Solarbeam is a usable move. Is it the end all be all? Definitely not. But I don't think it should be discarded from the get go. Some people have been knocking on the Grass typing as being offensively very poor. However, the metagame has seen an increase in bulky Water-types (to check Volkraken, etc, plus Arghonaut's sudden surge in viability after updates) and if we recognize Rain to be a problem to Sun/Sand then being able to hit something like Mega Swampert could be valuable as well. Is Grass on its own a great stand alone typing? No, it's really not that great on its own, but it does stuff at least. And luckily for us, CAP24 can have two tyings and not just one.
There definitely is a hard hitting equivalent of Solar Beam on the Special side, and its name is Leaf Storm. Solar Beam is mandatory on Drought setter Zard Y because Grass is a phenomenal attacking type to pair with Fire for obvious reasons. But if Charizard Y had Leaf Storm, it would give up Solar Beam in a heartbeat. Leaf Storm's extra power and lack of reliance on Sun allows it to OHKO offensive Pelipper after Stealth Rock and 2HKO defensive Pelipper after Stealth Rock even after the Special Attack drop. Furthermore, Leaf Storm can be spammed while the opponent has a Tyranitar on their team; if the opponent is running Tyranitar then a Zard Y will have to think long and hard before Solar Beaming. While the SpA drop is annoying, Leaf Storm is hardly less reliable than Solar Beam especially because Solar Beam literally can't be used after Charizard Y has been out for 5 turns. Furthermore, Leaf Storm's SpA drop works in Charizard Y's favor against the best bulky Water in CAP because Arghonaut's Unaware of Charizard Y's stat drops! I don't think Grass, in the end, will be able to abuse Sun the way you're envisioning it to. CAP24 will always prefer Power Whip to Solar Blade and Leaf Storm to Solar Beam. This would be mitigated to an extent by the fact that CAP24 would have STAB on Grass attacks while Charizard Y does not, but Leaf Storm's utility outside of the Sun and ability to shred opposing weather setters make it the superior move.

To your point about forcing CAP24 to abuse weather at the Typing stage, I won't argue that since it's largely a matter of personal preference. CAP24 is a dual weather abuser, and typings such as Fire and Rock allow it to abuse weather in a way that the typings I have suggested will not. To me, as long as this Pokemon can abuse the weather one way or another, I'm fine with giving it a typing like Electric/Flying and slapping some weather abuse Abilities and Moves on it later. But I understand the argument that we should be abusing weather as often as we can, even if I don't agree with it.

I do like the suggestion of Fire/Grass, for what it's worth. It's not weak to Ground or Water, and it carries a nifty Steel resistance. It switches into Celesteela without a second thought, and Fire is a typing that would be extremely beneficial to both Sun and Sand teams. Also hits Colossoil super-effectively. I'm wary of trying to outsource the Tomohawk weakness that Sand teams have to teammates, especially with a typing that Tomohawk hits super-effectively with Air Slash. I really struggle to accept that Sand teams need another Pokemon that fails to switch into Tomohawk or requires a good prediction to do so. However, as far as offense-oriented typings go, Fire/Grass is a very nice one.
 
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Frostbiyt

Not Exactly Helping
Rock/Bug doesn't hit Bulu super effectively. Fairy resists Bug, making it a neutral hit.

I can hardly see this type work at all, to be honest; while Bug and Rock on their own are decent ideas for this concept, pairing them gives a bad defensive and an average offensive typing. Who cares if you hit Ash-Greninja super effectively if it Hydro Pumps you into oblivion, even with Sand and Sun's defensive benefits. Not to mention the SR weakness too. The two types cover most of each other's weaknesses pretty well, but that goes into reverse as well: most of their nice resistances (like Bug's to Ground and Fighting, and Rock's to Fire) are undone.

Lastly, while it CAN work, I see little reason to use it over other typings, to be honest. Dragon/Flying, for example, hits most of the threats you mentioned, except for Volkraken, AshGren and Colossoil; Volkraken and Colossoil die to repeated strong neutral hits and Gren is a glass cannon. Furthermore, Dragon/Flying hits Tomohawk and Arghonaut super-effectively at the cost of being hard-walled by Celes and Skarm with only its STABs, but it's almost inevitable that it's going to get Fire coverate in the Movepool stage. Unlike Rock/Bug, Dragon/Flying is also pretty good defensively, resisting Water and Fighting, and being immune to Ground, along with other handy resistances like Bug, Grass and Fire.
Oops, Bulu was one of the last Pokemon I put on there and one of the two I didn't bother double checking. I forgot Fairy resists Bug.

My thought process behind this type combo was to try to find the best type to pair with Rock that best addresses the counters I had seen brought up the most. It's probably not the best possible type combo, but I think it is possibly the best combo that includes Rock. The Rock type is weak to Fighting, Ground, and Water, which are all STAB moves of the most notable counters to sun and sand teams. Of these three weaknesses, Water seemed the least important to resist because of the advantages given by sun and sand and it's also the easiest to grant further resistance to in later stages of the process(both ground and water can be made into immunities later with abilities, but barring that, giving CAP good Sp.D that would be further boosted in sand would make those SE Hydro Pumps a lot less painful). CAP could also forgo countering Greninja and instead just keep it from switching in by threatening it with STAB Bug moves. Basically I saw more flexibility with keeping its Water weakness over its Ground and Fighting Weaknesses. And the only thing that resists both Ground and Fighting is Bug.

I wouldn't say Rock/Bug is a good defensive typing, but I don't think it's a bad combo either. True, it doesn't resist much, but it only has three x2 weaknesses and no x4 weaknesses. And again, I think it offers a lot more defensive flexibility over a lot of the other type combos mentioned. It's not a combo that is locked into a specific role when it comes time to pick abilities and stats, so what it counters and what it is countered by could be varied widely.

I would say that Bug/Rock is a pretty good offensive combo. It's no Ghost/Fighting when it comes to offense(it actually hits more Pokemon super effectively than Ghost/Fighting, but also more not very effective), but it is still pretty good. The two types actually have very little overlap in Pokemon that they hit super effectively.

I'll admit I didn't think of the stealth rock weakness, that does suck, but any sun team is going to have a defogger.

I'm not really a fan of the Dragon/Flying combo. Yes, it is immune to ground, but Landorus-T very often carries HP Ice, which would be vary painful to a Dragon/Flying pokemon. HP Ice is also very common among other Pokemon as well since many carry it just to counter Lando(at least in regular OU, I'm not sure how common HP Ice is in CAP). Arguably, I think a Fairy weakness would be worse than a Water weakness, but I'd say it's pretty much a tossup. And then both type combos have that Rock weakness. Its resistances are undoubtedly better than my type combo, so I'll give you that. But its typing also gains no direct advantage from weather. It's not Fire or Grass, so no STAB Fire moves or solar moves in the sun and it's not Rock, Ground, or Steel so it doesn't get the Sp.D boost like Rock and it's not immune to sandstorm on its own. Offensively it's pretty good. I haven't looked over the type effectiveness against all of the viable Pokemon in CAP, but at a glance it doesn't seem to be significantly better or worse offensively than Rock/Bug.
 

snake

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Oops, Bulu was one of the last Pokemon I put on there and one of the two I didn't bother double checking. I forgot Fairy resists Bug.

My thought process behind this type combo was to try to find the best type to pair with Rock that best addresses the counters I had seen brought up the most. It's probably not the best possible type combo, but I think it is possibly the best combo that includes Rock. The Rock type is weak to Fighting, Ground, and Water, which are all STAB moves of the most notable counters to sun and sand teams. Of these three weaknesses, Water seemed the least important to resist because of the advantages given by sun and sand and it's also the easiest to grant further resistance to in later stages of the process(both ground and water can be made into immunities later with abilities, but barring that, giving CAP good Sp.D that would be further boosted in sand would make those SE Hydro Pumps a lot less painful). CAP could also forgo countering Greninja and instead just keep it from switching in by threatening it with STAB Bug moves. Basically I saw more flexibility with keeping its Water weakness over its Ground and Fighting Weaknesses. And the only thing that resists both Ground and Fighting is Bug.

I wouldn't say Rock/Bug is a good defensive typing, but I don't think it's a bad combo either. True, it doesn't resist much, but it only has three x2 weaknesses and no x4 weaknesses. And again, I think it offers a lot more defensive flexibility over a lot of the other type combos mentioned. It's not a combo that is locked into a specific role when it comes time to pick abilities and stats, so what it counters and what it is countered by could be varied widely.

I would say that Bug/Rock is a pretty good offensive combo. It's no Ghost/Fighting when it comes to offense(it actually hits more Pokemon super effectively than Ghost/Fighting, but also more not very effective), but it is still pretty good. The two types actually have very little overlap in Pokemon that they hit super effectively.

I'll admit I didn't think of the stealth rock weakness, that does suck, but any sun team is going to have a defogger.

I'm not really a fan of the Dragon/Flying combo. Yes, it is immune to ground, but Landorus-T very often carries HP Ice, which would be vary painful to a Dragon/Flying pokemon. HP Ice is also very common among other Pokemon as well since many carry it just to counter Lando(at least in regular OU, I'm not sure how common HP Ice is in CAP). Arguably, I think a Fairy weakness would be worse than a Water weakness, but I'd say it's pretty much a tossup. And then both type combos have that Rock weakness. Its resistances are undoubtedly better than my type combo, so I'll give you that. But its typing also gains no direct advantage from weather. It's not Fire or Grass, so no STAB Fire moves or solar moves in the sun and it's not Rock, Ground, or Steel so it doesn't get the Sp.D boost like Rock and it's not immune to sandstorm on its own. Offensively it's pretty good. I haven't looked over the type effectiveness against all of the viable Pokemon in CAP, but at a glance it doesn't seem to be significantly better or worse offensively than Rock/Bug.
Saying the bolded section is like saying that Tyranitar can sufficiently check Greninja-Ash, which is false.

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 408-480 (113 - 132.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 306-362 (84.7 - 100.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

And the calcs don't get much better under Sun either. And Tyranitar has a very generous 100 / 100 bulk too. I'm not saying that Bug / Rock type will end up with the same stats as Tyranitar, but it doesn't get much better as you pump more base stats in, and the more we invest in Special bulk the less we spend in offenses. Water-weak typings are just not so great for this concept.
 
Although I agree with practically everything HeaL said, I do think that we shouldn't fall into the trap of abusing weather for abusing's sake. Rock/Fire are the clearest direct abusers of our target weathers, yes. However, if they come with detriments that will hurt CAP more than the respective abuse would help them, in the long term they're actually making the 'mon in question less likely to function in a weather team.
Something that has already been discussed has been whether CAP24 should be a Stallmon. We settled on no. This means CAP has to be offensive- either as a sweeper or stall breaker. Sweeping requires speed and damage, with the former unrelated to typing and the latter dependent on strong STAB and sufficient coverage. Stallbreaker (or wallbreaker) requires the capacity to hit hard quick, likely without stat boosts due to Unaware walls like Argohnaut and Clefable. This means to function as Stallbreaker, the primary feature of CAP24 must be to hit hard with good STAB/Coverage.

So, where am I going with this? What we identified as important to CAP24 is notably missing something: defensive typing. Syclant and Stratagem can guide us with this. Syclant (when run specially), often has dual stab and ground coverage, with Blizzard-BugBuzz-Earthpower. Stratagem runs PaleoWave/AncientPower-EarthPower to hit most things SE. What they both lack, is defense. Argohnaut is stall/wall/phaser, and so it has good defensive typing. If we really are building offense, we need to resist the temptation to choose typings purely defensively.

Particularly, I feel this matters with Ash-Greninja. It is one Pokémon, and a rather centralizing one- yet Drew’s concept is not a decentralizer, nor is it a weather using wall. If Ash-Greninja ever gets sent to Uber’s, it will have been a waste of CAP24 to Target it, and even if it doesn’t, there exist countless checks to it already. We shouldn’t be so quick to discount Fire/Rock or Grass/Rock, because CAP24 is ultimately an offensive weather abuser, not a wall that has weather related abilities.
 
Something that has already been discussed has been whether CAP24 should be a Stallmon. We settled on no. This means CAP has to be offensive- either as a sweeper or stall breaker. Sweeping requires speed and damage, with the former unrelated to typing and the latter dependent on strong STAB and sufficient coverage. Stallbreaker (or wallbreaker) requires the capacity to hit hard quick, likely without stat boosts due to Unaware walls like Argohnaut and Clefable. This means to function as Stallbreaker, the primary feature of CAP24 must be to hit hard with good STAB/Coverage.

So, where am I going with this? What we identified as important to CAP24 is notably missing something: defensive typing. Syclant and Stratagem can guide us with this. Syclant (when run specially), often has dual stab and ground coverage, with Blizzard-BugBuzz-Earthpower. Stratagem runs PaleoWave/AncientPower-EarthPower to hit most things SE. What they both lack, is defense. Argohnaut is stall/wall/phaser, and so it has good defensive typing. If we really are building offense, we need to resist the temptation to choose typings purely defensively.

Particularly, I feel this matters with Ash-Greninja. It is one Pokémon, and a rather centralizing one- yet Drew’s concept is not a decentralizer, nor is it a weather using wall. If Ash-Greninja ever gets sent to Uber’s, it will have been a waste of CAP24 to Target it, and even if it doesn’t, there exist countless checks to it already. We shouldn’t be so quick to discount Fire/Rock or Grass/Rock, because CAP24 is ultimately an offensive weather abuser, not a wall that has weather related abilities.
We're not saying CAP24 should counter or even check AshGren. AshGren is just a huge threat to Sun and Sand and we don't want a mon that gets oneshot by Water Shuriken unless we restrict ourself to using an abilty like Water Absorb when we could as well use something like Sand Force. True, offensive mons don't really need much of a defensive typing, but resisting the STAB or even just priority moves of mons that tear Sun and Sand apart will surely help.
 

david0895

Mercy Main Btw
I don't understand why Water and Rock type can be good types since:
- Water type lose its STAB on the sun
- Rock type sacrifice the resistance to Ash-Greninja to boost some moves that are already powerful
 
I still don't really get what the grass typing offers to this concept except for negating the weaknesses of the other selected type. Grass is a bad offensive typing, and Solarbeam is a very tenuous link to weather IMO.

Not just because it's unreliable: it's not even anything special. 120 Base power? Most typings can offer a move in this ballpark, and with far less crippling drawbacks. 'But Solarbeam functions in sun!' shouldn't be an argument for grass because that applies to almost every other move we could choose as well.
 

reachzero

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What does it mean to "abuse" Weather?

I posit that it means using resources provided by Weather to provide a benefit greater than that normally enjoyed by non-Weather Pokemon.

In Generation 5, Sand teams featuring Excadrill were extremely popular for a simple reason: Excadrill with Sand up was the best Pokemon in the metagame, and really hard to stop even when you knew it was coming. People used Sand (and Rain, and Sun) because they knew that using it gave them the best chance of winning. The reason why Sand and Sun are barely used these days is that they do not currently present the user with a strong chance of winning. This is why it is worth asking whether Rock and Fire types should truly be considered optimal "abusers" of Sand and Sun respectively.

Rock is particular is an extremely mixed bag. Rock is a really good offensive type, particularly if and when it can use Rock-typed Weather Ball in Sand. However, it is hardly a secret that is one of the worst defensive types in the game, Getting a 50% SpD boost sounds good until you realize that you are only resistant to two good Special Attacking type (Fire and Flying) and are weak to Water, Grass, Ground and Fighting, the first three of which are quite common, especially Ground, which has a reputation for being the anti-metagame offensive type. Dragon/Rock is probably okay because the Dragon typing helps it resist Fire better and add Electric resistance, but Grass/Rock actually trades away the Fire and Flying resistances in favor of neutrality to Ground and Water, while both Grass and Dragon add Ice weakness, which is not a good thing. In short, the SpD boost sounds better than it actually is, because so often a Rock type will be taking supereffective damage. The SpD boost does help with neutral hits, which means that Grass/Rock CAP 24 would probably be at least competent at switching into Heatran in Sand, but it is something of a wash when compared to types like Fairy/Water that have more useful, consistent resistances.

In order to abuse Weather effectively, a Pokemon needs to be better than generically good, and I have my doubts that Rock gives any real advantage compared to types with fewer weaknesses and more resistances, even in Sand.
 
Ok I wanted post this in a long time.

Fire/Grass
Weaknesses: Flying, Poison, Rock
Resistances: Electric, Fairy, Grass, Steel
Immunities: None
Hits SE: Ice, steel, ground, rock, water, grass, bug,

Pros:
- Dont get destroyed by excadrill
- Don't get countered by many steel types pokemon that are used in sand
- Will reduce the usage of celesteela and ferro
- Allow to hit strong with STAB fire blast, Solar Beam or Solar blade
- swicht safe in ferrothorn and defensive landorus
- acess to syntesis
- will be more easy to swicht into sand due you just have to whatch out from rock types but the only rock type that is used in sand teams is tyranitar which thanks to you grass type can hit it.
- allow to build it more easilly thanks it can be special or physical thanks to the great offensive movepool.
- will be a beast as a sun abusser and a decent sand setter

Cons:
- weak to one of the most used types in CAP which is flying
- Countered by heatran
- weak to hazzards especially rocks
- will be kinda hard to use it sand however can do some damage with the grass type
- Get countered by any dragon type
 
I still don't really get what the grass typing offers to this concept except for negating the weaknesses of the other selected type. Grass is a bad offensive typing, and Solarbeam is a very tenuous link to weather IMO.

Not just because it's unreliable: it's not even anything special. 120 Base power? Most typings can offer a move in this ballpark, and with far less crippling drawbacks. 'But Solarbeam functions in sun!' shouldn't be an argument for grass because that applies to almost every other move we could choose as well.
I thoroughly disagree with this notion. Solar Beam in sun is the best Grass-STAB there is physical or special bar maybe Seed Flare (a legendary exclusive move). At 120 power and 100% accuracy it can tear holes trough teams. My best example of this is Bellsprout, as its powerful moves in combination with its better than average Special Attack lead to the banning of Vulpix because the 2 in combination in sun could essentially sweep the tier. Solar Beam + Weather ball with enough power can sweep a tier under the right circumstances, so disregarding Solar Beam as a loose connection to weather is simply foolish in my opinion.
 
I thoroughly disagree with this notion. Solar Beam in sun is the best Grass-STAB there is physical or special bar maybe Seed Flare (a legendary exclusive move). At 120 power and 100% accuracy it can tear holes trough teams. My best example of this is Bellsprout, as its powerful moves in combination with its better than average Special Attack lead to the banning of Vulpix because the 2 in combination in sun could essentially sweep the tier. Solar Beam + Weather ball with enough power can sweep a tier under the right circumstances, so disregarding Solar Beam as a loose connection to weather is simply foolish in my opinion.
I have to disagree here, I don't think Solar Beam/Blade are viable in CAP (Outside of Bloom Doom Heatran). Having to rely on weather is just too much of a drawback, as it leaves you without your STAB move when Sun is not up, and can be used against you if your opponent has its own weather setter, as if they predict that you using that move, they will make you waste a turn and guarantee a clear hit against you, which could potentially KO CAP 24. Not only that, but because of the much higher average weight in CAP metagame when compared to LC, Grass Knot is a much more reliable strong Grass move, and realistically, it would always be chosen over the unreliable Solar Beam.
 

Deck Knight

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- - - - -

I also have concerns against Fire/Grass, namely the SR weak and the fact it's not really good coverage in CAP. It also seems only tangentially related to Sand and the fact is if it goes Special it would almost have to have a Grass move to use in Sand, which means alternatives to Solar Beam of which there are several viable selections.
 
how it does not have a good coverage in CAP pyroak is one of most hard walls to deal? grass have strong physicals move like leaf blade and same for fire with flare blitz.
 

Wulfanator

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I think the inclusion of solar beam and solar blade as a pro for any grass-type is a weak argument. Both moves have their power reduced by half in any other weather. Not to mention, if your opponent changes the weather on your solar beam turn, you re-acquire the charge turn. It's only slightly better than being locked into outrage while your opponent swaps to a fairy-type. Lastly, if you lose your sun setter, solar beam/blade is practically worthless. Look at sun sweeper Venasaur. It picks giga drain over solar beam every time.
 
I understand that there are a lot of things to consider when making this CAP but I think a lot of posts here have somehow transformed into supporting generically good typings and only barely relating it to the concept afterwards. Sure, checking X, Y, Z thing is helpful for Sun or Sand and we have to pick what is worth checking eventually and typing is the first and easiest step in doing so. That said... I personally am saddened by the lack of discussion on the weather itself and how CAP24 would benefit from the weather by virtue of its typing (as opposed to it just beating XYZ thing the weather struggles with). Having some aspect of its typing actually synergize with the weather is important to me so that CAP24 is encourages to actually utilize both of its weather.

As a brief interlude before I start talking about typings, I do just want to say that the ability to check XYZ has inevitably caused a certain Pokemon's name to come up quite a lot, and this mon's name came up quite a lot last CAP too. I'm talking about Tomohawk of course. Yes, Tomohawk is a staple in the metagame. Yes, Fairy and Flying-types generally do well against Tomohawk. However, in regards to a weather concept, I don't see why Tomohawk is all that relevant, let alone at the typing stage. Tomohawk is defeated by so many things other than just its opponent having SE STAB. Really, if we're worried about Tomohawk AND the concept simultaneously, then the biggest thing to talk about is Rain Dance Tomohawk and how Tomohawk on Rain Teams has the potential to mess with CAP24 if we don't handle typing properly. Well, that *would* be a big thing to talk about, except the part where there's probably even more threatening rain mons to consider... So uh, Tomohawk? I don't see it being as big of a thing for this concept as some people seem to think. Additionally, so many things handle Tomohawk without the merit of typing, including with just special bulk, toxic, neutral special attack STAB, SE special attack coverage, etc...

So, back to how CAP can directly synergize with Sun/Sand. Really, I think having at least one of our typings benefit directly from at least one of the weathers is important. People have already mentioned the Rock-type's ability to boost Sp.Def in the sand so I won't talk too much about that other than say I think it's pretty cool boost the merits consideration. Some people have also mentioned the Grass-type's ability to use Solarbeam, Solar Blade, and Weather Ball in the sun but have argued that Power Whip is just a better, more reliable version on Solar Blade. For the most part this logic holds true, but on the special side there's really no hard hitting equivalent of Power Whip that isn't legendary exclusive, which does leave Solarbeam with a potential niche. Solarbeam isn't uncommon on the Drought setter Zard Y, and if CAP itself can set Sun then I think Solarbeam is a usable move. Is it the end all be all? Definitely not. But I don't think it should be discarded from the get go. Some people have been knocking on the Grass typing as being offensively very poor. However, the metagame has seen an increase in bulky Water-types (to check Volkraken, etc, plus Arghonaut's sudden surge in viability after updates) and if we recognize Rain to be a problem to Sun/Sand then being able to hit something like Mega Swampert could be valuable as well. Is Grass on its own a great stand alone typing? No, it's really not that great on its own, but it does stuff at least. And luckily for us, CAP24 can have two tyings and not just one.

I think Grass/Rock actually synergizes pretty well, both with each other to remedy many of their weaknesses but also with the concept. Grass and Rock both gain a bit from the different weathers and neither are really hurt by the other weather (maybe being weak to Excadrill's Iron Head in the sand is scary, but it's not in the realm of impossibility to have stats compensate for this or to have teammates). I know the beginning of the thread had some support for this typing and then it died down, but really I think it's definitely got some merits. Its a typing that handles both of its intended weathers while getting feasible buffs while being able to handle opposing rain. The only things in the CAP metagame that resists both Rock and Grass STAB off the top of my head are Kitsunoh, Magearna, and Kartana, which really isn't that long of a list.

Deck Knight's suggestion of Rock/Dragon is something I think has potential and I could see it working, but being weak to a number of powerful Ground-types on Sand Teams is a bit scary to me (I think being weak to Excadrill's Iron Head is forgivable for Grass/Rock but remember that Earthquake has 20 more BP than Iron Head, so I am fairly concerned about our ability to handle that power increase). Dragon's defensive qualities are still a nice compliment to Rock's defensive weaknesses and helps CAP24 deal with Sun and Rain threats though, so it's not something I would dismiss outright.

Dragon/Fairy to me seems like a generically good typing and offers little benefit to the concept. Sure, it can beat up some opposing weather opponents but it stacks the Steel and Ice weaknesses that Grass/Rock has without any of the direct weather benefits that the later receives due to its typing.

In general I think reach has supported Water/Fairy quite well and he has linked it back to the concept better than others in the thread. However, Fairy/Water also suffers from the same generically good typing complaint as the above, just to maybe a bit lesser of an extent. I can see it working as a good anti-weather mon or even an anti-anti-weather mon beating anti-weather mons... but... to me the concept is weather, not anti-anti-weather and a bit of that synergy with the weather itself is lost in Water/Fairy in favor or just checking things that check weather. Really, one of my fears is that without direct synergy with the weather itself, the anti-anti-weather CAPmon just becomes... something good to use freely on non weather teams more often than on weather ones (anti-anti-weather doesn't inherently mean pro weather, especially without any direct benefits for the mon to use weather itself and I want a pro Sun/Sand mon morseo than just an anti-ant-weather mon).

In terms of DLC's suggestions, I personally like Electric/Flying far more than Fairy/Flying since I think DLC tried to sell Fairy/Flying as a great defensive typing but Electric/Flying just does it better in the current metagame. I'm not particularly fond of either because they lack direct weather benefits though, but I do like Electric/Flying far more than any of the Fairy types proposed so far... Really, I don't get the allue of Fairies for this concept, and you can see my above piece on Tomohawk and why I don't think it's that big of a deal.

So uh, those are my thoughts at this time. I personally want us to be pro Sun and Sand, not just anti-anti-weather. Sure both can happen, but I definitely want the the former alongside the latter and I don't want to see anti-anti-weather without also being pro due to its own synergy.

Also, more of an aside, Fire/Grass is something I haven't seen discussed but it also checks a number of my boxes in terms of having direct weather benefits, being neutral or positive vs opposing weather, and having a good mix of defensive/offensive qualities. Really the main problem with Fire/Grass is that it has SR weakness, which is why I prefer Grass/Rock, but I think this flaw is more forgivable than other flaws in this discussion.

/end another edition of HeaL's minority opinions.
I’m really glad you made this post, because while I don’t agree with all of the points in it, it definitely made me think about what my priorities have been with this typing, and especially how they might have warped over the course of this thread.

I will say that I seriously considered Grass/Rock as a typing. In all honesty, it’s one of my favourite type combinations in Pokémon, due to how the two most notoriously fragile types combine to cover each other’s weaknesses really well. I also happen to think that a Pokémon with this type combination (and reasonable assumptions about stats, movepool, etc.) would fare very well in many relevant 1v1 matchups, especially assuming that one of our chosen weathers is active.

However, the cost of having to neutralise so many weaknesses is that you end up with hardly any resistances. A Grass/Rock CAP24 would only resist Electric- and Normal-type moves, granting it few opportunities to swap in against most of the moves which are commonly spammed against Sand and Sun teams. The pseudo-resistance to Water in Sun is helpful, and the Sandstorm Sp. Def buff is great too, but I’m not sure it’s quite enough.

Your analysis of the offensive performance of Grass/Rock is a strong point in its favour, and I must admit that Grass+Rock(+Fire coverage, potentially) is an exceptionally potent combination, but I’m not sure how it’ll get to exert that offensive pressure without relying on slow pivoting. My understanding was that CAP24 would probably need high offensive stats to fill the gaps in Sun and Sand that we identified, likely setting a stricter upper limit on its bulk. I don’t really see how an offensive Pokémon with almost zero relevant resistances can safely get into battle to start threatening the opposing team, unless the momentum is already in the CAP24 user’s favour.

Having said all this, I agree that the approach of simply trying to individually snipe the threats to Sand and Sun is less in the spirit of the concept than trying to build the two archetypes up with a complementary new teammate. I’m also becoming a bit leery of Fairy-type submissions because, as you say, it’s easy to fall into ‘generically good typing’ territory, and a Fairy Pokémon with high overall stats and a good offensive movepool is virtually guaranteed to see use regardless of the success of the concept, just because the type is that good.
 
HeaLnDeaL said:
Dragon/Fairy to me seems like a generically good typing and offers little benefit to the concept. Sure, it can beat up some opposing weather opponents but it stacks the Steel and Ice weaknesses that Grass/Rock has without any of the direct weather benefits that the later receives due to its typing.
While you are right, Dragon/Fairy is generally good Typing, I personally don't think that makes it a bad choice for what we need. Yes, Dragon/Fairy shares weaknesses with Ice and Steel with Grass/Rock. What it doesn't share, however, is important resistances to Fighting, Fire, Water (Which all greatly threaten common parts of Sun/Sand teams), as well as resistances to Dark (Thus blunting a good deal of Ash-Greninja's threat), Grass (Which our Rock and Ground Types don't want to deal with), Bug and Electric (Not key weaknesses, but it could discourage U-Turn/Volt Switch, or at least reduce damage from them). It's also immune to Dragon, which isn't nessesary, but is nice to have. Even though we aren't building a wall, CAP 24 needs to be able to switch in at least somewhat comfortably in order to provide the wall-breaking/speed control we decided it needs to provide. While I understand the allure of Grass/Rock, having supported it myself earlier in the conversation, I'm no longer convinced it does what we need it to do.

To address concerns that Dragon/Fairy doesn't adequately abuse the Sun or the Sand, I would posit that a Pokemon's ability to abuse weather is better determined by it's Ability and Movepool than just it's Typing. Out of the myriad effects of Sun, only two (increasing the power of Fire Type moves and decreasing the power of Water Type moves) directly refer to a Pokemon's Type. The rest all relate to how individual moves or Abilities function. Likewise, Sand only references Type twice (which Types don't take damage, and boosting the Sp.Def of Rock Types). Everything else is based on moves or Abilities. So, yes, Dragon/Fairy does benefit from Sun boosting Fire Type moves, it doesn't benefit from immunity to Sand damage, and doesn't get a boost to it's Sp.Def. If we were going to pick a Type that benefits directly from both Sun and Sand, that type would be Fire/Rock, and it would be dunked on by Ash-Greninja, not to mention basically every decent Water Type, Rain Teams, and most well built teams in general. I think that for right now, we should focus on addressing what Typing actually can address: Weaknesses, Resistances, and STAB combo.

david0895 said:
I don't understand why Water and Rock type can be good types since:
- Water type lose its STAB on the sun
- Rock type sacrifice the resistance to Ash-Greninja to boost some moves that are already powerful
I'm really hesitant about Water/Fairy and other Water/X Types, mainly because it only gives us one STAB under the Sun. I know, Pokemon have been successful without having two STABs, but I personally don't think that justifies neutering CAP 24 when it's supposed to be an offensive wall breaker. Just because something can function with one STAB doesn't mean it should; having two STABS makes our job of wall breaking easier, by letting us run less coverage (seriously, Dragon+Fairy+Fire=everything dead), and giving us a better chance of powering through beefy enemies without having to boost or use Z-Moves or something like that. A strong offensive Type gives us options, and as I've been stressing since day one, the more options we give ourselves later on, the better this CAP will turn out to be. Yes, Dragon/Fairy is a generically good Type. Yes, it will likely see use outside of Sun/Sand. I don't think those are bad things. Having a good, solid Type gives us a strong foundation on which to build. We can shape the niche it fills later on, based on it's Stats, Ability/ies and Movepool. I'd rather make CAP 24 to good and trim it down to where we want it, than make it bad and then desperately try to fix it later on.
 

SHSP

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Here it is, the moment you've all been waiting for: the all important slate. Before I get to it, i'd just like to say that this thread's discussion has been a joy to watch and I think has set us up beautifully for the whole concept and CAP. The discussion has covered many of the questions remaining and sent us on a strong path no matter what typing is selected. Now, after talking with Drap, here is the slate:

Dragon/Fairy: This typing is offensively strong with incredible neutral coverage, especially when paired with teammates that can beat Steels, and helps ease defensive synergy within weathers, answering threats while not overly stacking weaknesses. It's strong without weather and synergizes well with both, although it falls into a similar trap as other typings: it struggles individually in a dual steel meta, especially against the omnipresent, Sun-destroying Heatran. It's a strong option in general fits many criteria set at the start of this typing process.

Rock/Flying: This is a good choice for offenses when it comes to abusing both weathers. Although it's weaknesses are apparent- rocks weakness, water weakness and generally not being an amazing defensive typing, and the possibility of a difficult time with STAB in movepool thanks to flying's relative lack of options- the upsides are just as big. It gives us a ground immunity, preys on some of Sand and Sun's biggest checks like Tomo, and has extremely good coverage and synergy within the existing frameworks of both Sand and Sun.

Grass/Fairy: One of my favorite of the grass/something typings, this is a defensive juggernaut. Ground answer, water answer (specifically destroys non beam Ash-Gren), isn't weak to Rocks, and plugs into offensive needs of both weathers by hitting threats like Tomo, Ash-Gren, Zygarde and Hawlucha. It struggles to handle certain threats such as steels like Celesteela and Heatran, however, and it can be held back by it's weaknesses- flying weakness makes it hard to actively switch in on Tomo and Lucha which it can otherwise beat.

Electric/Flying: The initial thoughts of many when reading this typing may be "ah god, thunder+cane? Aren't we not building a rain mon?" This may be the greatest fear of this typing, as it seems to fit Rain just as much as it does with Sun and Sand. DLC's post on the typing highlights it's advantages heavily: Flying answer, strong pivot option for Sand as well as resisting the ever-common Steel. It seems like a great fit for sand, but flaws start to be noticed in the suggestion when applying it to Sun; it's upsides remain, but does its defensive prowess do enough?

Rock/Dragon: This option has a number of routes to take it: it can set weather as well as abuse it, covers weaknesses in the builds of both weathers and has a surprising amount of defensive utility, eating alive Flying types and Fires. Similarly to it's Rock/Flying brethren, it can struggle defensively though: it's only neutral to the powerful and common Water, is weak to Ground, and a host of other common typings thrown around heavily in this meta.

Fire/Grass: A very interesting typing, Fire/Grass fits both team types well through surprising defensive synergy with it's resistance to Steel and neutralities to Water and Ground. Offensively it opens what Sand can threaten and gives Sun a powerful abuser of the Fire buff, although it seems to have a key weakness to flying, hurting it against titans of the metagame in Landorus-T and Tomohawk, especially on Sand where it stacks the weathers difficulty of handling these Flying defenders who give it nightmares

Fairy/Flying: This is similar to Electric/Flying, but has a number of niches over it: the biggest and clearest advantage is it significantly decreases the fear of Rain abuse compared to it. It has a bad weakness to Steel, especially for Sand, and has the common possible weakness of STAB moves the other Flying typings have, but it's defensive abilities into common threats and typings such as Fighting and Ground as well as it's offensive capabilities into threats of Sand and Sun give it power other Flying combos might lack.
 

Drapionswing

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After careful discussion with SHSP, we came to a very mutual agreement on this slate. All the typings chosen have been carefully picked as they all possess very strong elements that are very beneficial to completing this concept. While I considered using my +1 on many typings, I think SHSPs decently sized slate contains the best possible options for our slate, as it contains typings that address this concept both offensively and defensively whilst other typings contain harsh weaknesses/complications that I think we'd best avoid.

When looking at future +1/-1's I will be ensuring that all slates give us a great amount of potential to work with in later stages, and that was entirely what I feel like has happened here.
 
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