david0895
Mercy Main Btw
Thanks but I decided to re-open the wip because i had to add some correction and addiction and I don't know if I can add any more
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CAP 24 CAP 24 - Part 2 - Typing Discussion
- Thread starter Deck Knight
- Start date
- Status
Fairy / Flying
Weaknesses: Poison, Rock, Steel, Electric, Ice
Resistances: Fighting (2x!), Bug (2x!), Grass, Dark
Immunities: Dragon, Ground
Hits SE: Dragon, Dark, Fighting, Bug, Grass
Resisted By: Heatran, Magearna, Celesteela, Magnezone, Mega Mawile, Excadrill, Crucibelle, Naviathan, Cawmodore, Kitsunoh
Pros:
- Ground immunity!
- Excellent super-effective coverage, most notably Tomohawk, Arghonaut, and Colossoil.
- Neutral to Air Slash, laughs at Tomohawk's other attacking options.
- Can come in on Landorus-Therian and Colossoil with complete impunity
- Moonblast and Play Rough are great STAB moves
- Not weak to Water, and resists Ash-Greninja's Dark Pulse.
- Immunity to every form of entry hazard besides Stealth Rock
- Weaknesses, such as Steel, synergize with Sun teams well.
- Super-Effective against Tyranitar, who bothers Sun teams.
Cons:
- Hurricane is inaccurate and Brave Bird causes nasty recoil.
- Hurricane is not a viable move in the Sun.
- Weak to Stealth Rock
- Weak to Bullet Punch, most notably from Mega Scizor (who Sand doesn't actually appreciate...)
- This typing is completely destroyed by Steel-types, who already destroy Excadrill and Tyranitar.
I am very partial to Fairy/Flying because it provides a "best of both worlds" approach in terms of offense and defense. Defensively, this is one of the best typings to switch into and destroy both Tomohawk and Landorus-Therian. Immunity to Earthquake and a 4x resistance to U-Turn make Landorus unable to cause significant damage to CAP24. Tomohawk, on the other hand, is destroyed by both of CAP24's STAB moves and can only hit back with Air Slash or Hurricane. Offensive Tomohawk is a little tougher to switch into, but it's also OHKO'd by CAP24 and takes more damage from Tyranitar and Excadrill. Sun does not really worry about Tomohawk at all, honestly.
The Pokemon listed above that Fairy/Flying struggles with are largely handled by Excadrill or Tyranitar. The only Pokemon that really bother a Tyranitar/Excadrill/CAP24 core are Celesteela, Skarmory, and Cawmodore. Mega Scizor can be obnoxious too because of the STAB priority Bullet Punch. I'm not going to polljump, but I have a funny feeling that with the right coverage, those Steel types might think twice before switching into CAP24. Especially because we're also trying to abuse Sun.
There are obvious drawbacks to this typing as well. Weakness to Bullet Punch sucks since Tyranitar and Excadrill struggle with Mega Scizor as-is. Stealth Rock weakness is annoying, but not prohibitive. I think the Earthquake immunity is worth the SR weakness, especially when both Malaconda and Excadrill spin away hazards. Hurricane is unviable in the Sun, making CAP24 unable to use one of its Special STABs in one of the weathers it's trying to abuse. Again, this can be compensated for by either going Physical or Mixed, or providing CAP24 with the non-STAB firepower to make up for the lack of Hurricane STAB. For what it's worth, Mega Charizard Y doesn't use its Flying STAB, either.
All in all, Fairy/Flying provides the defensive utility to switch into Sand's worst threats and the offensive firepower to shred both Sand and Sun's toughest checks. I get that this is a "generically good" typing that doesn't take advantage of Sun or Sand by itself, but I do not see that as an issue. There are places in the process to make the Pokemon "generically good" and places to tailor it to the weather conditions, and Typing is the best stage to ensure this Pokemon will be viable.
Weaknesses: Poison, Rock, Steel, Electric, Ice
Resistances: Fighting (2x!), Bug (2x!), Grass, Dark
Immunities: Dragon, Ground
Hits SE: Dragon, Dark, Fighting, Bug, Grass
Resisted By: Heatran, Magearna, Celesteela, Magnezone, Mega Mawile, Excadrill, Crucibelle, Naviathan, Cawmodore, Kitsunoh
Pros:
- Ground immunity!
- Excellent super-effective coverage, most notably Tomohawk, Arghonaut, and Colossoil.
- Neutral to Air Slash, laughs at Tomohawk's other attacking options.
- Can come in on Landorus-Therian and Colossoil with complete impunity
- Moonblast and Play Rough are great STAB moves
- Not weak to Water, and resists Ash-Greninja's Dark Pulse.
- Immunity to every form of entry hazard besides Stealth Rock
- Weaknesses, such as Steel, synergize with Sun teams well.
- Super-Effective against Tyranitar, who bothers Sun teams.
Cons:
- Hurricane is inaccurate and Brave Bird causes nasty recoil.
- Hurricane is not a viable move in the Sun.
- Weak to Stealth Rock
- Weak to Bullet Punch, most notably from Mega Scizor (who Sand doesn't actually appreciate...)
- This typing is completely destroyed by Steel-types, who already destroy Excadrill and Tyranitar.
I am very partial to Fairy/Flying because it provides a "best of both worlds" approach in terms of offense and defense. Defensively, this is one of the best typings to switch into and destroy both Tomohawk and Landorus-Therian. Immunity to Earthquake and a 4x resistance to U-Turn make Landorus unable to cause significant damage to CAP24. Tomohawk, on the other hand, is destroyed by both of CAP24's STAB moves and can only hit back with Air Slash or Hurricane. Offensive Tomohawk is a little tougher to switch into, but it's also OHKO'd by CAP24 and takes more damage from Tyranitar and Excadrill. Sun does not really worry about Tomohawk at all, honestly.
The Pokemon listed above that Fairy/Flying struggles with are largely handled by Excadrill or Tyranitar. The only Pokemon that really bother a Tyranitar/Excadrill/CAP24 core are Celesteela, Skarmory, and Cawmodore. Mega Scizor can be obnoxious too because of the STAB priority Bullet Punch. I'm not going to polljump, but I have a funny feeling that with the right coverage, those Steel types might think twice before switching into CAP24. Especially because we're also trying to abuse Sun.
There are obvious drawbacks to this typing as well. Weakness to Bullet Punch sucks since Tyranitar and Excadrill struggle with Mega Scizor as-is. Stealth Rock weakness is annoying, but not prohibitive. I think the Earthquake immunity is worth the SR weakness, especially when both Malaconda and Excadrill spin away hazards. Hurricane is unviable in the Sun, making CAP24 unable to use one of its Special STABs in one of the weathers it's trying to abuse. Again, this can be compensated for by either going Physical or Mixed, or providing CAP24 with the non-STAB firepower to make up for the lack of Hurricane STAB. For what it's worth, Mega Charizard Y doesn't use its Flying STAB, either.
All in all, Fairy/Flying provides the defensive utility to switch into Sand's worst threats and the offensive firepower to shred both Sand and Sun's toughest checks. I get that this is a "generically good" typing that doesn't take advantage of Sun or Sand by itself, but I do not see that as an issue. There are places in the process to make the Pokemon "generically good" and places to tailor it to the weather conditions, and Typing is the best stage to ensure this Pokemon will be viable.
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Mega CAPs put a big strain on the process, so I doubt - tho I can't tell for sure - that there will be another Mega CAP.
What I can tell for sure is that IF there is a Mega CAP, it would be decided before the CAP starts, so this will definitely not be one.
1: Now that we've narrowed down to Sun and Sand, what areas and roles do these two weathers struggle or lack in? Are any of these holes in their team frameworks shared?
First of all, I think that sun has more problems than sand in general. Sun lacks of very potential breakers and fast ones and sun pokemon are normally too weak(Stealth Rock are a problem in some breakers such as zard y). In the other side sand have problems with celesteela and some water types like greninja.
2: What typings address the weaknesses of Sun/Sand teams individually?
Well, I think the answer to this question is not the typing of CAP24, I think the typing pf this new capmon should be chosen thinkin of what wuold be the role of this new CAP. So, in sun I really would like to suggest a Fire Type that could break through all the weathers. How? The most important thing of this mon won't beits labour on different weathers it would its typing. Like I said before, it would a Fire Type but to improve its role in sand it would be also Rock or Steel Type (I like morr the second one) beacuse with that typing CAP24 will break in sun with sun attacks and it would resist attacks in sand with the boost of the sandstorm. Also if it has Sand Rush it would be perfect but we are talking about the typing. To sum up, I am imagine that CAP24 should be a bulky mon with Fire-Steel Type that can brrak in sun, and don't recieve a lot of damage from SR, and also it can resist some attacks in sand withe the special defense boost and with its fire attacks break through celesteela. Obviously, I am talking about a bulky pokemon but I have not even imagine of how a defensive mon would fit on those weathers.
I don't know if it is too late to post it but I'd like to give my opinion of the next CAP typing xD
First of all, I think that sun has more problems than sand in general. Sun lacks of very potential breakers and fast ones and sun pokemon are normally too weak(Stealth Rock are a problem in some breakers such as zard y). In the other side sand have problems with celesteela and some water types like greninja.
2: What typings address the weaknesses of Sun/Sand teams individually?
Well, I think the answer to this question is not the typing of CAP24, I think the typing pf this new capmon should be chosen thinkin of what wuold be the role of this new CAP. So, in sun I really would like to suggest a Fire Type that could break through all the weathers. How? The most important thing of this mon won't beits labour on different weathers it would its typing. Like I said before, it would a Fire Type but to improve its role in sand it would be also Rock or Steel Type (I like morr the second one) beacuse with that typing CAP24 will break in sun with sun attacks and it would resist attacks in sand with the boost of the sandstorm. Also if it has Sand Rush it would be perfect but we are talking about the typing. To sum up, I am imagine that CAP24 should be a bulky mon with Fire-Steel Type that can brrak in sun, and don't recieve a lot of damage from SR, and also it can resist some attacks in sand withe the special defense boost and with its fire attacks break through celesteela. Obviously, I am talking about a bulky pokemon but I have not even imagine of how a defensive mon would fit on those weathers.
I don't know if it is too late to post it but I'd like to give my opinion of the next CAP typing xD
Electric/Fighting
Weaknesses: Fairy, Ground, Psychic
Resistances: Bug, Dark, Electric, Rock, Steel
Hits SE: Dark, Flying, Ice, Normal, Rock, Steel, Water
Resisted By: No individual type
Pros:
- Wallbreaker/Sweeper: Great offensive STAB combination that offers high base power moves, priority, mixed capability, STAB Volt Switch for pivoting and extremely good neutral and super effective coverage that compliments common Sand/Sun attacking types.
- Notably hits Water and Flying super effectively, problem types for Sand and Sun.
- Notably hits Ferrothorn, Flying/Steel types, Charizard-Y, Tomahawk, Water types, Chansey/Blissey and Heatran which Sand and Sun struggle with respectively.
- Defensive typing avoids super effective damage from most relevant threats, also not weak to any priority move.
- Good defensive synergy with Charizard-Y, covering each other's weaknesses.
- Resists Stealth Rock.
- Resists U-Turn and Volt Switch.
- Unique type combination automatically gives it a niche, both inside weather and outside it.
Cons:
- Weak to Ground, stacking a weakness with Excadrill and Tyranitar.
- STAB combination is walled by Ground/Flying types. Could be easily forced out by Landorus-T and Gliscor if it doesn't carry Ice coverage.
- Walled by Tapu Koko, but could overcome variants lacking Dazzling Gleam. (Note: Tapu Koko with Dazzling Gleam are mostly choiced, which sand teams can easily take advantage of).
- Walled by Marowak-Alola, which is crushed by Sand regardless but is a problem for Sun teams.
- Does not wall or force out many pokemon defensively due to lack of common resistances. (Scizor and Tyranitar notable exceptions, which could be annoyances for Sand and Sun respectively)
- Without ability or movepool modifiers the typing does not inherently possess any synergy with weather except for STAB Thunder. (And none with Sun/Sand)
Weaknesses: Fairy, Ground, Psychic
Resistances: Bug, Dark, Electric, Rock, Steel
Hits SE: Dark, Flying, Ice, Normal, Rock, Steel, Water
Resisted By: No individual type
Pros:
- Wallbreaker/Sweeper: Great offensive STAB combination that offers high base power moves, priority, mixed capability, STAB Volt Switch for pivoting and extremely good neutral and super effective coverage that compliments common Sand/Sun attacking types.
- Notably hits Water and Flying super effectively, problem types for Sand and Sun.
- Notably hits Ferrothorn, Flying/Steel types, Charizard-Y, Tomahawk, Water types, Chansey/Blissey and Heatran which Sand and Sun struggle with respectively.
- Defensive typing avoids super effective damage from most relevant threats, also not weak to any priority move.
- Good defensive synergy with Charizard-Y, covering each other's weaknesses.
- Resists Stealth Rock.
- Resists U-Turn and Volt Switch.
- Unique type combination automatically gives it a niche, both inside weather and outside it.
Cons:
- Weak to Ground, stacking a weakness with Excadrill and Tyranitar.
- STAB combination is walled by Ground/Flying types. Could be easily forced out by Landorus-T and Gliscor if it doesn't carry Ice coverage.
- Walled by Tapu Koko, but could overcome variants lacking Dazzling Gleam. (Note: Tapu Koko with Dazzling Gleam are mostly choiced, which sand teams can easily take advantage of).
- Walled by Marowak-Alola, which is crushed by Sand regardless but is a problem for Sun teams.
- Does not wall or force out many pokemon defensively due to lack of common resistances. (Scizor and Tyranitar notable exceptions, which could be annoyances for Sand and Sun respectively)
- Without ability or movepool modifiers the typing does not inherently possess any synergy with weather except for STAB Thunder. (And none with Sun/Sand)
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Community Note: Just as a note, type "submissions" don't need a WIP. Like Abilities, Types are communally suggested and slated as a specific identity and not by whoever "submitted" it. SHSP and Drapionswing are monitoring the thread and forming a slate of types based on intelligent community consensus. Organizing your preferred typing's strengths and weaknesses, pros and cons are a great way to help voters decide, but ultimately only the types themselves get slated.
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Anyway, my own suggestion that I've been promoting for a while.
Rock/Dragon
Weaknesses: Dragon, Fairy, Fighting, Ground, Ice, Steel
Resistances: Fire (4x), Electric, Flying, Normal, Poison
Neutral: Bug, Dark, Ghost, Grass, Psychic, Rock, Water
Super-Effective Against: Bug, Dragon, Fire, Flying, Ice
With Fire Coverage (Sun boosted): Above + Grass, Steel
Resisted by: Kerfluffle, Excadrill, Magearna, Lucario, Klefki, Steelix, Pure Steel types.
With Fire Coverage (Sun boosted): None
Pros:
Immensely threatening offensive typing with high-powered STAB access for each relevant type given the concept, both physical and special.
Sun moves Water from neutrality to effective resistance.
Sun grants effective 1.5x boost on Rock/Dragon/Fire coverage combination, a combination that can hit neutral or super-effectively on any opponent.
Sand grants 1.5x SpD boost.
Sand grants STAB Weather Ball.
Potential STAB priority in Accelerock
Cons:
Many undesirable weaknesses to priority, especially Bullet Punch, Mach Punch, and Ice Shard.
Ground weakness, though it can be mitigated by items or moves, is particularly acute for Zygarde.
Like most Dragons, it will win against other Dragons if it is faster and lose if it is slower or has to switch in.
Additional Considerations:
Mold Breaking:
Rock/Dragon is not ordinarily a typing CAP would pursue because of its specific weaknesses, however in this concept it is one of the best typings that effectively "abuses" Sun and Sand. This makes Rock/Dragon the sort of typing CAP could uniquely explore in its full capacity.
Setting and Abusing:
Rock/Dragon is exceptional both as a potential Setter of weather (to allow other Pokemon to fill team roles) as well as a potential Abuser. While it still has concerning suite of weaknesses like Tyranitar does, they do not include Water or Grass, which is something both Tyranitar and Hippowdon don't like encountering. It's Electric resistance also makes it capable of taking on boosted Electric moves from Electric Terrain. It also lures in a significant number of threats that Excadrill switches into, such as Tapu Koko and Magearna.
Sun
As a sun Setter, it could be used in a core with Malaconda and Charizard-Y which together cover each other's weaknesses well and allow Malaconda to run its speed controlling Harvest set. This gives Sun team a path to both a speed controller and another breaker Pokemon that can switch into Heatran if it can avoid Earth Power, which neither Malaconda nor ZardY lure. This is where even in Sun its 4x Fire resistance (effectively 3x) let it support its teammates and keep offensive pressure up.
Sun abuse is pretty straightforward. While it's not as overwhelming as Volcarona would be because of double-boosted Fire-STAB, unresisted coverage and no crippling Stealth Rock weakness makes it a formidable threat to consider. As a special threat Power Gem is not quite as dangerous in Sun as its Dragon or Fire moves, but Sun doesn't currently run any strong Rock moves either.
Sand
As a sand abuser, either as a breaker or as a speed control complement to Excadrill it offers a different threat composition while still somewhat covering for weaknesses. While a resistance wpuld be better than the SpD boost, since the boost exists outside stat-ups it can be further augmented by Assault Vest with CAP still perfectly able to threaten opponents if built correctly. Sand + AV effectively grants resistance and a little better to any special-attacking neutrality, and as mentioned Rock/Dragon/Fire does not have any resistances. CAP may instead want to run Rock/Dragon/Ground in Sand depending on other factors, however Sand already has a lot of Ground attacks so it probably will not be preferred.
I will submit that as a setter, Tyranitar is already a very good Pokemon that capitalizes on the Sand + AV boost and it will be difficult to match in terms of power / stat spread (if that would even be desirable). Rock/Dragon on CAP would however, if the community desired, allow us to build a Pokemon that capitalizes on all 3 benefits of Sand setting + SpD Boost + Shore Up healing Boost simultaneously if we wanted to go a bulky offense route.
Conclusion:
Rock/Dragon combines the strongest elements of abusing weather with a relatively flexible and efficient offensive typing. It can fulfill specific roles on either a Sun or Sand team or through a more team-oriented approach allow the other needs of those teams to be filled by existing Pokemon.
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Anyway, my own suggestion that I've been promoting for a while.
Rock/Dragon
Weaknesses: Dragon, Fairy, Fighting, Ground, Ice, Steel
Resistances: Fire (4x), Electric, Flying, Normal, Poison
Neutral: Bug, Dark, Ghost, Grass, Psychic, Rock, Water
Super-Effective Against: Bug, Dragon, Fire, Flying, Ice
With Fire Coverage (Sun boosted): Above + Grass, Steel
Resisted by: Kerfluffle, Excadrill, Magearna, Lucario, Klefki, Steelix, Pure Steel types.
With Fire Coverage (Sun boosted): None
Pros:
Immensely threatening offensive typing with high-powered STAB access for each relevant type given the concept, both physical and special.
Sun moves Water from neutrality to effective resistance.
Sun grants effective 1.5x boost on Rock/Dragon/Fire coverage combination, a combination that can hit neutral or super-effectively on any opponent.
Sand grants 1.5x SpD boost.
Sand grants STAB Weather Ball.
Potential STAB priority in Accelerock
Cons:
Many undesirable weaknesses to priority, especially Bullet Punch, Mach Punch, and Ice Shard.
Ground weakness, though it can be mitigated by items or moves, is particularly acute for Zygarde.
Like most Dragons, it will win against other Dragons if it is faster and lose if it is slower or has to switch in.
Additional Considerations:
Mold Breaking:
Rock/Dragon is not ordinarily a typing CAP would pursue because of its specific weaknesses, however in this concept it is one of the best typings that effectively "abuses" Sun and Sand. This makes Rock/Dragon the sort of typing CAP could uniquely explore in its full capacity.
Offensive:
Weather is a very offense-driven archetype and Rock/Dragon, especially with Sun-granted psuedo-STAB provides a huge amount of offensive pressure. Although it has difficulty switching in, other Pokemon has the same difficulty switching into it. This is true even against a large number of VoltTurners, in part because in a matchup where CAP is faster it is near-guaranteed to output high damage.
Whither Rain? No, Wither Rain.
Rock/Dragon is also not a typing that fears Rain much, especially if it sets its own weather. Pelipper is a free switchin as Rain teams are unlikely to start running it with Specs. Sidenote: all discernible Pelipper usage in CAP is defensive/support Pelipper. Even with middling 75/90 HP/SpD Scald can't break CAP's Substitutes in Sand (never mind Sun), even with no defensive investment. If forced to battle in Rain, not being weak to Water makes it capable of surviving to manually set weather if absolutely necessary.
Set it and forget it:
CAP's sets are fairly straightforward and on concept given this offensive combination. 3 Attacks + Recovery or 3 Attacks + Sub provide a basic backbone, and if CAP decides on more advanced set, any 2-move combination of the Rock/Dragon/Fire combination would still be a generally effective offensive Pokemon. Additional coverage would not be strictly necessary, but could be considered.
Weather is a very offense-driven archetype and Rock/Dragon, especially with Sun-granted psuedo-STAB provides a huge amount of offensive pressure. Although it has difficulty switching in, other Pokemon has the same difficulty switching into it. This is true even against a large number of VoltTurners, in part because in a matchup where CAP is faster it is near-guaranteed to output high damage.
Whither Rain? No, Wither Rain.
Rock/Dragon is also not a typing that fears Rain much, especially if it sets its own weather. Pelipper is a free switchin as Rain teams are unlikely to start running it with Specs. Sidenote: all discernible Pelipper usage in CAP is defensive/support Pelipper. Even with middling 75/90 HP/SpD Scald can't break CAP's Substitutes in Sand (never mind Sun), even with no defensive investment. If forced to battle in Rain, not being weak to Water makes it capable of surviving to manually set weather if absolutely necessary.
Set it and forget it:
CAP's sets are fairly straightforward and on concept given this offensive combination. 3 Attacks + Recovery or 3 Attacks + Sub provide a basic backbone, and if CAP decides on more advanced set, any 2-move combination of the Rock/Dragon/Fire combination would still be a generally effective offensive Pokemon. Additional coverage would not be strictly necessary, but could be considered.
Setting and Abusing:
Rock/Dragon is exceptional both as a potential Setter of weather (to allow other Pokemon to fill team roles) as well as a potential Abuser. While it still has concerning suite of weaknesses like Tyranitar does, they do not include Water or Grass, which is something both Tyranitar and Hippowdon don't like encountering. It's Electric resistance also makes it capable of taking on boosted Electric moves from Electric Terrain. It also lures in a significant number of threats that Excadrill switches into, such as Tapu Koko and Magearna.
Sun
As a sun Setter, it could be used in a core with Malaconda and Charizard-Y which together cover each other's weaknesses well and allow Malaconda to run its speed controlling Harvest set. This gives Sun team a path to both a speed controller and another breaker Pokemon that can switch into Heatran if it can avoid Earth Power, which neither Malaconda nor ZardY lure. This is where even in Sun its 4x Fire resistance (effectively 3x) let it support its teammates and keep offensive pressure up.
Sun abuse is pretty straightforward. While it's not as overwhelming as Volcarona would be because of double-boosted Fire-STAB, unresisted coverage and no crippling Stealth Rock weakness makes it a formidable threat to consider. As a special threat Power Gem is not quite as dangerous in Sun as its Dragon or Fire moves, but Sun doesn't currently run any strong Rock moves either.
Sand
As a sand abuser, either as a breaker or as a speed control complement to Excadrill it offers a different threat composition while still somewhat covering for weaknesses. While a resistance wpuld be better than the SpD boost, since the boost exists outside stat-ups it can be further augmented by Assault Vest with CAP still perfectly able to threaten opponents if built correctly. Sand + AV effectively grants resistance and a little better to any special-attacking neutrality, and as mentioned Rock/Dragon/Fire does not have any resistances. CAP may instead want to run Rock/Dragon/Ground in Sand depending on other factors, however Sand already has a lot of Ground attacks so it probably will not be preferred.
I will submit that as a setter, Tyranitar is already a very good Pokemon that capitalizes on the Sand + AV boost and it will be difficult to match in terms of power / stat spread (if that would even be desirable). Rock/Dragon on CAP would however, if the community desired, allow us to build a Pokemon that capitalizes on all 3 benefits of Sand setting + SpD Boost + Shore Up healing Boost simultaneously if we wanted to go a bulky offense route.
Conclusion:
Rock/Dragon combines the strongest elements of abusing weather with a relatively flexible and efficient offensive typing. It can fulfill specific roles on either a Sun or Sand team or through a more team-oriented approach allow the other needs of those teams to be filled by existing Pokemon.
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These things could apply to literally any typing so I don't think it's appropriate to mention them in this context.
Also I'm not sure how you can sell this as a typing that does well against rain. How is Pelipper in any way a free switch in? As you come in it will either hit you with rain-boosted Scald or U-Turn out into a pokemon your team is now even weaker to, Mega Swampert.
My original sentences: Rock/Dragon is also not a typing that fears Rain much, especially if it sets its own weather. Pelipper is a free switchin as Rain teams are unlikely to start running it with Specs.
They were meant to be taken together. But the reason is that Rock/Dragon also resists Hurricane, whereas most other typings proposed do not resist Flying.
Gosh. Now I need to go back and edit that post again...nah, I'm just giving you a hard time lol.david0895 said:
If I may, I have a few points that might be worth considering in favor of Dragon/Fairy.
- With Fire coverage (provided by CAP 24 itself or it's teammates), Dragon/Fairy hits literally everything in the game for at least neutral damage. I know I've said this before, and there are other types that can claim similar feats, but I think it's worth considering for a wall breaker.
- Neutrality to Ground and Rock is better than, in my opinion, a weakness to either one individually. While I don't want to poll jump, we have ways to remove/mitigate these neutral hits later on in the process, if we decide we need to.
- After taking the resistances of both San and Sand teams together, the only common weakness Dragon/Fairy contributes is Ice (Hits most Grass and Ground types for Super Effective damage). Dragon/Fairy resists Fighting, Water and Fire, which all hit various parts of Sun and/or Sand teams hard, easing pressure on these teams.
- Additionally, resistances to Bug, Dark, Grass and Electric gives CAP 24 ample opportunity to switch in and do it's job. Dark in particular tends to be at least neutral to most Sun and Sand teams, and an additional resistance can help reduce the threat of powerful Dark Types. Bug threatens our Grass Types, and Grass threatens Rock and Ground, all of whom would appreciate an ally resistant to their respective worst nightmares.
- Aside from Ice, Dragon/Fairy has weaknesses to Poison, Steel and Fairy. While all three see use as coverage moves, they lack moves that can reliably deal high damage (Fairy's strongest attacks peak at 90, Iron Tail is inaccurate, Meteor Mash has relatively poor distribution, as does (I believe) Gunk Shot). Of the three, only Steel resists Dragon/Fairy; as I've mentioned before, Fire Type coverage, from CAP 24 or it's teammates, eliminates this resistance, and actually turns it into another weakness. These Types also don't greatly threaten Sun or Sand teams (Poison threatens Grass but is countered by Ground, while Steel threatens Rock but is countered by Fire), meaning Dragon/Fairy doesn't stack any common weaknesses other than Ice.
- Immunity to Dragon isn't nessesary, but it's nice to have an answer to various powerful Dragons that might show up trying to Outrage all over us.
- Dragon/Fairy is, as others have noted, a generically good type, that works well outside of weather teams. One of the conditions set during Concept Analysis was that CAP 24 should have a niche outside weather teams, and Dragon/Fairy CAP 24 could (just based on things we've already said we want CAP 24 to do), provide a special wall breaker with unique Type match-ups, something I think most teams would appreciate, or at least consider. Dragon/Fairy CAP 24 would also give us a fall-back position in case, for whatever reason, we are unable to maintain our weather.
In the name of honesty, there are a few other negatives I can think of for Dragon/Fairy:
- Dragon/Fairy really doesn't have an answer for Landorus-T, unless it picks up Ice coverage from somewhere.
- Heatran. Even with Fire coverage, Heatran laughs at Dragon/Fairy all day long.
- Dragon/Fairy has no innate immunity to Sand damage.
As the one to officially suggest Dragon/Fairy (I know what Deck Knight said about these not being tied to specific people, but it's the principle of the thing, you know?), I'll let david0895 decide if he wants to add these points to the list of Pros/Cons, but either way, these are the reasons I feel Dragon/Fairy does what we need it to do.
EDIT: Looking back at your post again, david0895, I'm not sure we can say Dragon/Fairy is "vulnerable" to Ground and Rock. I mean sure, it gets hit by them, but lots of things get hit by them. Dragon/Fairy is only neutral to them both, meaning we could conceivably tank them if we had to. I'm not saying they aren't relevant or important, especially since Ground is one of the biggest threats to both Sun and Sand teams, I'm just not sure being neutral to these Types warrants a slot on the Cons list, you know?
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Again, setting weather isn't a quality that is unique to any one typing. Also why would you switch this into Pelipper and waste a turn to manually set up Sand/Sun rather than switching in Tyranitar/Charizard-Y directly? (Especially since you mentioned taking a Hurricane well, which support Pelipper might not even run, and if it does it won't be using it liberally)
I just think this one point you've made is a complete non-sequitur especially since the rest of the analysis is rather solid. Unless I've misunderstood and you mean to give this pokemon a weather setting ability, which is not what we're supposed to be proposing here.
I'd have to agree. I see the intent of the post was to suggest specific roles CAP24 could provide in weather and was simply explaining those more in depth. By asserting the roles as weather setter and mold breaker, it starts to limit the ability and move selection in the later stages. I've already made this mistake in my first post. We should be focusing solely on the typing of CAP24's and its synergy with weather mons.
Fundamentally the concept in play here revolves around two or more weathers. Therefore the type's viability as a weather setter / "abuser" is part of the analysis of that typing. Bug/Grass would not be a good weather setter because it has few good switchin opportunities and does not want to expand its weaknesses, nor does it provide much diversity for its team archetype. It's pretty good at eating Thousand Arrows though.
Essentially the idea is laying out the potentiality of all concept compatible options on the table. Rock/Dragon has more compatibility in my view with these avenues than other proposed types. The gained water resistance, lack of concern for enhancing fire weakness, and flexibility to either set a weather to aid other team members or be the abuser itself are key arguments for the typing in regard to its interplay with Sun. So I probably jumped the gun with that aside about weather setting and Pelipper, but nonetheless it holds true. If you have a Grass pairing that could set Sun for its allies, even if switching into Hurricane was more plausible you would still be flirting with a 50% chance of being KO'd, and the additional water reduction would be less compelling.
david0895
Mercy Main Btw
I think that this is important because since this type can only check Ground/Rock type, CAP24 can't enter on them multiple times.
While this is not a very bad thing, it will change how CAP24 can be played
Steel-types don’t get the Special Defense boost in Sand (thank goodness, the Steel-type is good enough already).
I agree with david0895 on this. I won’t say it’s a dealbreaker, but if we make CAP24 neutral to Ground and Rock, we’re not really making those threats to Sun and Sand we identified any more wary about spamming their powerful STAB attacks. We also agreed that CAP24 will need to be more offensively inclined to fill the existing gaps in these weather teams. The stat distribution necessary for that will probably make it harder for us to switch into neutral hits without taking significant damage.
Mr Holiday, although you mention “ways to mitigate” damage from Rock and Ground moves later in the process, I can’t think of any specifically for Rock at all, and only one for Ground (the obvious one) that is neither a doorway to a whole mess of other issues nor almost useless in practice.
I do like some aspects of a Dragon/Fairy typing, like its ability to handle Water-types without struggling against Tomohawk, and it would be a solid typing outside of weather teams, as you noted.
david0895 said:
You guys are right. Honestly, I got a bit carried away. In my heart of hearts, I already have a certain image of CAP 24 in mind, and it probably isn't the most realistic one in the world. I apologize.Cobalt Empoleon said:
I'm not trying to downplay the threat Ground and Rock pose to Sun and Sand teams, and in fairness to other Typings that have been proposed, a resistance to one or both would certainly be appreciated by CAP 24 and the Sun/Sand teams it is meant to serve on. I'm also not saying Dragon/Fairy can or should be able to wall Ground and Rock type attacks. As we've already decided, this is an offensive Pokemon, and offensive Pokemon usually don't like getting hit at all if they can help it, especially not by moves like Earthquake or Stone Edge, to name but a few. Mainly, what I was suggesting is that being neutral to these Types is better than being weak to them. Sure, eating an Earthquake (just as an example) will hurt, but it'll hurt Dragon/Fairy less than it would hurt, say, Dragon/Rock, or Electric/Fighting. Dragon/Fairy probably won't be happy about it, and there are other Typings here, like Water/Fairy or Grass/Fairy, that would be much more comfortable taking that hit, but Dragon/Fairy could probably, depending on other factors like stats, etc., take the hit and not die instantly.
All of that being said, I think it's important to remember something that's been said by a few people throughout the course of this conversation: No Typing is perfect. We aren't going to find a Type combo that does everything as well as we would like it to. Rock/Dragon is, arguably, a better offensive Type than Dragon/Fairy, and even gets a nifty Sp.Def boost in Sand, but it stacks an unhealthy Ground weakness that we really don't want or need. Grass/Fairy resists Ground and several other threatening Types, but struggles offensively and adds weaknesses to Ice, Fire and Flying that we don't want. Dragon/Fairy, in my opinion, sits at a comfortable point where it might not be the best at anything, but it's sufficient at everything. It has plentiful resistances, including key threats like Water, Fighting and Fire, and it's only common weakness is to Ice, which is usually seen only as coverage. It has excellent offensive ability which can be complimented by it's team, or expanded by itself based on move pool choices down the line. It has the ability to do well in either Sun or Sand, but can also function outside of them if we need it to. Dragon/Fairy isn't perfect, but I for one think it does what we need it to do.
I like to keep the door open for options down the road. We might give this thing recovery options. We might give it ways to lower opponents offensive stats. We might give it a certain Ability that negates damage from a certain Type of attack (you all know what I mean, right? I'm trying not to poll jump). I'm not saying we will, or even necessarily that we should. As we've said, this isn't a defensive or stall Pokemon, it's a wall breaker. All I'm saying is, if, down the line, we decide that a bit more bulk would be appreciated, there are options. I for one don't think it's unreasonable for a wall breaker to take a hit or two in the line of duty, but that's something we'll decide later. I guess I'm just saying we don't have to solve all our problems right now in the Typing phase. I hope that makes sense.Colbat Empoleon said:
I want to bring up a second typing, one that hasn't really been brought up before. I've been pushing Fairy/Flying a lot lately, but I think Electric/Flying is also great.
Weaknesses: Rock, Ice
Resistances: Fighting, Flying, Bug, Steel, Grass
Immunities: Ground
Hits SE: Water, Flying, Bug, Fighting, Grass
Resisted By: Tapu Koko, Magnezone, Excadrill, Cyclohm, Cawmodore (kinda), Plasmanta
Pros:
- Ground immunity!
- Excellent super-effective coverage, most notably Tomohawk, Arghonaut, and Celesteela
- Resists all STAB on Landorus-Therian, Tomohawk, and Celesteela. Switches into all of them without a second thought.
- Two weaknesses, neither of which are all that common. Excadrill resists Rock as well.
- Immunity to every form of entry hazard besides Stealth Rock.
- If, by the grace of Arceus, given Ground coverage, would hit every Pokemon in the game neutrally with the exception of Volt Absorb Cawmodore.
- Shreds Pelipper.
- Shreds Malaconda and Charizard Y (for Sand teams).
Cons:
- Hurricane is inaccurate and Brave Bird causes nasty recoil.
- If we want to go mixed, Wild Charge is not exactly great STAB.
- Hurricane is not a viable move in the Sun.
- Weak to Stealth Rock.
- Electric and Flying are naturally types Rain would like, although they have plenty of Thunder and Hurricane spammers already.
Electric/Flying is not exactly what comes to mind when you think of Sun and Sand. But that's exactly why this is a great typing for both weathers, especially Sand. What kind of Pokemon bother Sand teams? Bulky Steel, Fighting, and Flying-type Pokemon, often spamming powerful Steel and Flying-type STAB. Enter the Electric/Flying Sand Abuser, capable of switching into Landorus-Therian, Tomohawk, Arghonaut, Celesteela, and Mega Scizor without even a second thought!
One of the biggest problems for Sun teams right now is Hawlucha. Hawlucha can destroy Malaconda, even set up on it if it's got Substitute. With a Swords Dance, Hawlucha can shred both Fire and Grass types that benefit from the Sun. Electric/Flying resists both of Hawlucha's STABs and provides a point of relief for it. If you don't believe me, build a Sun team and try not to make it Hawlucha weak. It's harder than it looks.
There's been a lot of talk about Landorus-Therian and Tomohawk as problems for Sand teams, but they're not the only ones. Surprisingly enough, Steel-types do pretty well against Tyranitar and Excadrill. Celesteela destroys Sand offense just as badly as Lando and Tomo do, Ferrothorn can usually handle the pair, Skarmory shuts them down, and Cawmodore can set up on Excadrill. Mega Scizor walls Excadrill without Swords Dance and scoffs at Tyranitar. I'm starting to believe that Steel is extremely important to resist. An Electric/Flying CAP24 can switch into Landorus-Therian, Skarmory, Cawmodore, Celesteela, and Mega Scizor very easily. It threatens all of them with the exception of Cawmodore, who we might have to rely on coverage or teammates against. I very strongly believe Electric/Flying is a great typing for this Pokemon - maybe even the best.
Weaknesses: Rock, Ice
Resistances: Fighting, Flying, Bug, Steel, Grass
Immunities: Ground
Hits SE: Water, Flying, Bug, Fighting, Grass
Resisted By: Tapu Koko, Magnezone, Excadrill, Cyclohm, Cawmodore (kinda), Plasmanta
Pros:
- Ground immunity!
- Excellent super-effective coverage, most notably Tomohawk, Arghonaut, and Celesteela
- Resists all STAB on Landorus-Therian, Tomohawk, and Celesteela. Switches into all of them without a second thought.
- Two weaknesses, neither of which are all that common. Excadrill resists Rock as well.
- Immunity to every form of entry hazard besides Stealth Rock.
- If, by the grace of Arceus, given Ground coverage, would hit every Pokemon in the game neutrally with the exception of Volt Absorb Cawmodore.
- Shreds Pelipper.
- Shreds Malaconda and Charizard Y (for Sand teams).
Cons:
- Hurricane is inaccurate and Brave Bird causes nasty recoil.
- If we want to go mixed, Wild Charge is not exactly great STAB.
- Hurricane is not a viable move in the Sun.
- Weak to Stealth Rock.
- Electric and Flying are naturally types Rain would like, although they have plenty of Thunder and Hurricane spammers already.
Electric/Flying is not exactly what comes to mind when you think of Sun and Sand. But that's exactly why this is a great typing for both weathers, especially Sand. What kind of Pokemon bother Sand teams? Bulky Steel, Fighting, and Flying-type Pokemon, often spamming powerful Steel and Flying-type STAB. Enter the Electric/Flying Sand Abuser, capable of switching into Landorus-Therian, Tomohawk, Arghonaut, Celesteela, and Mega Scizor without even a second thought!
One of the biggest problems for Sun teams right now is Hawlucha. Hawlucha can destroy Malaconda, even set up on it if it's got Substitute. With a Swords Dance, Hawlucha can shred both Fire and Grass types that benefit from the Sun. Electric/Flying resists both of Hawlucha's STABs and provides a point of relief for it. If you don't believe me, build a Sun team and try not to make it Hawlucha weak. It's harder than it looks.
There's been a lot of talk about Landorus-Therian and Tomohawk as problems for Sand teams, but they're not the only ones. Surprisingly enough, Steel-types do pretty well against Tyranitar and Excadrill. Celesteela destroys Sand offense just as badly as Lando and Tomo do, Ferrothorn can usually handle the pair, Skarmory shuts them down, and Cawmodore can set up on Excadrill. Mega Scizor walls Excadrill without Swords Dance and scoffs at Tyranitar. I'm starting to believe that Steel is extremely important to resist. An Electric/Flying CAP24 can switch into Landorus-Therian, Skarmory, Cawmodore, Celesteela, and Mega Scizor very easily. It threatens all of them with the exception of Cawmodore, who we might have to rely on coverage or teammates against. I very strongly believe Electric/Flying is a great typing for this Pokemon - maybe even the best.
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Just want to throw some support behind Fairy / Flying in the thread. While it does trade a Water-type resistance, which is important for Sand teams, it takes some of the best parts of Grass / Fairy and Dragon / Flying and puts them together nicely, most notably a reliable STAB move to hit for Tomohawk with, better resistances against Hawlucha, and an immunity to Ground-type moves, which also threaten Sun and Sand teams.
Not subbing typing (mostly because as I've mentioned on Discord, weather and I do not mix) but right now I think my favourite combinations are the ones that include Flying. Fairy/Flying and Elec/Flying in particular seem to hit most of what we want to hit, and notably have good resists to common Sand and Sun threats like Steela and Lando.
It is my belief that CAP24 will benefit the most from having good switch-in options, which makes typings such as those that can switch into Steela/Lando/Tomo/Colo without too much struggle more valuable than a Water resist or the punching power of types such as Rock or Fire.
Water/Grass
Weaknesses: Flying, Poison, Bug
Resistances: Ground, Steel, Water
Hits SE: Ground*, Rock*, Water, Fire
Resisted By: Water STAB (Dragon, Grass, Water), Grass STAB (Bug, Dragon, Fire, Flying, Grass, Poison, Steel)
Notable Resists: Mega-Sceptile 4* resists both STABs, Naviathan, Empoleon; 2* resist both STABs; Salamence/Pajantom; resists both STABs and hits SE with Z-Fly or Brave Bird, Mollux/Plasmanta; Water Immunity means it's reliant on (4* for Mollux) Resisted Grass; Plasmanta hits SE with STAB Poison
Pros:
- Okay, so this isn't a good start; but please bear with me as I explain. This typing is mostly intended to be defensive. it resists Water 4*, and is a neat little resist to Mega-Swampert's non-STAB Ice/Ground/Water set, and should be able to get a OHKO back.
- One of the sweepers you expect to see within a rain team is Kingdra; this typing doesn't have the weakness of the Water/Dragon type suggestion to it's super-fast Draco Meteor.
- Despite it's poor set of STAB coverage, CAP24 utilising this typing can afford to run STABless, especially on a Sun-Team which may have grass coverage elsewhere in the form of Solar Beam, and with weakened Water moves, which encourages a wide movepool to cover-up holes within a team.
- Rock and Ground have been noted as being types which have to be watched out for; while it's only neutral vs Rock, it resists Ground, and hits back SE with both of its STABs; Landorus-T, Greninja (especially if it's locked into Hydro Pump/Shuriken or is lacking U-Turn - using Ludicolo as the base, Shuriken is ~15%), Arghonaut, Colossoil, Crucibelle,
- When facing off against another weather team, the Water/Grass STAB combination usually has something it can do well with many things that get placed down; either resisting the main attack, or baiting out the type it's weak to.
Cons:
- The intent of the concept behind CAP24 is to work with both Sand and Sun. With both Water and Grass, a Rain team could potentially benefit from its ability to hit typical Fire and Sun teams well with Boosted STAB's; care has to be taken not to make CAP24 capable of working too well on a Rain Team.
- A further weakness to bug means that U-Turners could have fun versus Tyranitar and Malaconda.
- it doesn't address the issue of Tomohawk without taking movepool or abilities into account.
- it's going to need an offense oriented movepool; necessitating Ice coverage to hit Ground and Flying types SE, and not be walled by anything with the Dragon type; in particular the move Freeze Dry to be able to hit X/Water types, and/or Poison, to hit the Tapu's who may want to switch in and take advantage of the weather not being conducive to the good health Fire types.
Weaknesses: Flying, Poison, Bug
Resistances: Ground, Steel, Water
Hits SE: Ground*, Rock*, Water, Fire
Resisted By: Water STAB (Dragon, Grass, Water), Grass STAB (Bug, Dragon, Fire, Flying, Grass, Poison, Steel)
Notable Resists: Mega-Sceptile 4* resists both STABs, Naviathan, Empoleon; 2* resist both STABs; Salamence/Pajantom; resists both STABs and hits SE with Z-Fly or Brave Bird, Mollux/Plasmanta; Water Immunity means it's reliant on (4* for Mollux) Resisted Grass; Plasmanta hits SE with STAB Poison
Pros:
- Okay, so this isn't a good start; but please bear with me as I explain. This typing is mostly intended to be defensive. it resists Water 4*, and is a neat little resist to Mega-Swampert's non-STAB Ice/Ground/Water set, and should be able to get a OHKO back.
- One of the sweepers you expect to see within a rain team is Kingdra; this typing doesn't have the weakness of the Water/Dragon type suggestion to it's super-fast Draco Meteor.
- Despite it's poor set of STAB coverage, CAP24 utilising this typing can afford to run STABless, especially on a Sun-Team which may have grass coverage elsewhere in the form of Solar Beam, and with weakened Water moves, which encourages a wide movepool to cover-up holes within a team.
- Rock and Ground have been noted as being types which have to be watched out for; while it's only neutral vs Rock, it resists Ground, and hits back SE with both of its STABs; Landorus-T, Greninja (especially if it's locked into Hydro Pump/Shuriken or is lacking U-Turn - using Ludicolo as the base, Shuriken is ~15%), Arghonaut, Colossoil, Crucibelle,
- When facing off against another weather team, the Water/Grass STAB combination usually has something it can do well with many things that get placed down; either resisting the main attack, or baiting out the type it's weak to.
Cons:
- The intent of the concept behind CAP24 is to work with both Sand and Sun. With both Water and Grass, a Rain team could potentially benefit from its ability to hit typical Fire and Sun teams well with Boosted STAB's; care has to be taken not to make CAP24 capable of working too well on a Rain Team.
- A further weakness to bug means that U-Turners could have fun versus Tyranitar and Malaconda.
- it doesn't address the issue of Tomohawk without taking movepool or abilities into account.
- it's going to need an offense oriented movepool; necessitating Ice coverage to hit Ground and Flying types SE, and not be walled by anything with the Dragon type; in particular the move Freeze Dry to be able to hit X/Water types, and/or Poison, to hit the Tapu's who may want to switch in and take advantage of the weather not being conducive to the good health Fire types.
One criticism I have for many of these submissions is that there are simple lists of what types are hit super effectively by STAB coverage, rather than relevant targets in the metagame and targets for this concept. For example, if your typing hits Ice super effectively, you’re basically referring to how it hits basically just Syclant super effectively. On the other hand, when “Steel-types” is listed, it usually doesn’t mean all of Ferrothorn, Heatran, Celesteela, etc., meaning that it’s misleading to participants. Showing a list of actual Pokémon that STAB coverage can hit fully shows not only how useful the typing is in that respect but also acknowledges that we’re building for a metagame, rather than a field of types.
Very fair point. I'll edit in later.
I'd like to make the argument for Fairy/Water.
Fairy/Water offers a strong counter to Battle Bond Greninja, a strong switch-in to Heatran, and an anti-Syclant measure for both Sand and Sun that doesn't lose to Zygarde--the only desirable resistance for both Weathers it lacks is Ground, and is easy enough for Sand to get just by pairing it with Tomohawk or Landorus-Therian (you definitely have one of the two on every team). Offensively, Fairy typing is enough to break reliably, so as long as we give it Ground or Fire coverage later, it should not be dependent on Water attacks at all.
One thing to keep in mind when looking at Fairy/Water is that defensive typing is entirely reliant on the Typing stage, while offensive typing is something we have a lot of control over in the Movepool stage--we will choose whether or not to give this CAP Water attacks, Hurricane, Thunder, etc. and so there is really very little point worrying about CAP 24 being used on Rain--we have no incentive to give it attacks that can be spammed on Rain, and there is plenty of precedent (Zapdos is a good example) for Pokemon not receiving competitive attacks from both STABs, if we want to go this route.
Syclant and Heatran are serious threats to both Sand and Sun that few of the other mentioned Types have any chance of answering, so I would like to recommend Fairy/Water as both the defensive typing we need and the offensive typing we want.
Weaknesses: Electric, Grass, Poison
Resistances: Bug, Dark, Fighting, Fire, Water, Ice
Immunities: Dragon
Hits SE: Dragon, Dark, Fighting, Fire, Ground, Rock
Resisted By: Ferrothorn, Kartana, Empoleon, Azumarill, Primarina, Mollux, Plasmanta, Toxapex, Tentacruel, Volcanion, Venusaur, Weepinbell, Amoonguss, Roserade, Vileplume
Resistances: Bug, Dark, Fighting, Fire, Water, Ice
Immunities: Dragon
Hits SE: Dragon, Dark, Fighting, Fire, Ground, Rock
Resisted By: Ferrothorn, Kartana, Empoleon, Azumarill, Primarina, Mollux, Plasmanta, Toxapex, Tentacruel, Volcanion, Venusaur, Weepinbell, Amoonguss, Roserade, Vileplume
Fairy/Water offers a strong counter to Battle Bond Greninja, a strong switch-in to Heatran, and an anti-Syclant measure for both Sand and Sun that doesn't lose to Zygarde--the only desirable resistance for both Weathers it lacks is Ground, and is easy enough for Sand to get just by pairing it with Tomohawk or Landorus-Therian (you definitely have one of the two on every team). Offensively, Fairy typing is enough to break reliably, so as long as we give it Ground or Fire coverage later, it should not be dependent on Water attacks at all.
One thing to keep in mind when looking at Fairy/Water is that defensive typing is entirely reliant on the Typing stage, while offensive typing is something we have a lot of control over in the Movepool stage--we will choose whether or not to give this CAP Water attacks, Hurricane, Thunder, etc. and so there is really very little point worrying about CAP 24 being used on Rain--we have no incentive to give it attacks that can be spammed on Rain, and there is plenty of precedent (Zapdos is a good example) for Pokemon not receiving competitive attacks from both STABs, if we want to go this route.
Syclant and Heatran are serious threats to both Sand and Sun that few of the other mentioned Types have any chance of answering, so I would like to recommend Fairy/Water as both the defensive typing we need and the offensive typing we want.
Frostbiyt
Not Exactly Helping
I am going to preface this suggestion by saying that I don't have any experience in the CAP metagame, but I have read every post in this thread and have some experience in regular OU.
Rock/Bug
Weaknesses: Rock, Steel, Water
Resistances: Normal, Posion
Offensive Coverage(against Pokemon from S, A+, and A ranks):
Not very effective against: Magearna, Arghonaut, Mawile
Neutral Against: Landorus-T, Tomohawk, Celesteela, Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele, Zygarde, Crucibelle, Ferrothorn, Medicham, Tapu Bulu
Super effective against: Greninja, Volkraken, Aurumoth, Blacephalon, M-Charizard Y, Colossoil, Pinsir, Syclant, Volcarona
Bolded names were ones that have been frequently brought up as threats for sun and sand teams.
Pros:
- Sp.D boost in sand
- Immune to sandstorm damage
- Pretty good STAB coverage
- Few weaknesses
- Rock hits most fire types pretty hard
Cons:
- Water weakness(probably the biggest con for this typing)
- Few Resistances
- STAB moves not boosted in sun(ie no Fire or solar move STAB)
- No Fire resistance
On the surface, this typing doesn't seem to be remarkably good or bad, but I think its main strength is that it isn't inherently terrible against any of the main threats as it takes neutral damage from all STAB moves from the main threats to sand and sun teams, except for Water moves. It also hits two of them for super effective damage and the other two for neutral damage with its STABs. Regarding the water weakness, this is made less of an issue when you factor in the Sp.D bonus(specifically useful against Greninja, a special attacker) from sand or water being weakened by sun. Without going into specifics, the water weakness could be made into less of an issue or removed entirely with good stats/abilities. On the offense, Rock/Bug is pretty good, so CAP 24 would really only need ice coverage to be able to take on Lando and Tomo.
Rock/Bug
Weaknesses: Rock, Steel, Water
Resistances: Normal, Posion
Offensive Coverage(against Pokemon from S, A+, and A ranks):
Not very effective against: Magearna, Arghonaut, Mawile
Neutral Against: Landorus-T, Tomohawk, Celesteela, Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele, Zygarde, Crucibelle, Ferrothorn, Medicham, Tapu Bulu
Super effective against: Greninja, Volkraken, Aurumoth, Blacephalon, M-Charizard Y, Colossoil, Pinsir, Syclant, Volcarona
Bolded names were ones that have been frequently brought up as threats for sun and sand teams.
Pros:
- Sp.D boost in sand
- Immune to sandstorm damage
- Pretty good STAB coverage
- Few weaknesses
- Rock hits most fire types pretty hard
Cons:
- Water weakness(probably the biggest con for this typing)
- Few Resistances
- STAB moves not boosted in sun(ie no Fire or solar move STAB)
- No Fire resistance
On the surface, this typing doesn't seem to be remarkably good or bad, but I think its main strength is that it isn't inherently terrible against any of the main threats as it takes neutral damage from all STAB moves from the main threats to sand and sun teams, except for Water moves. It also hits two of them for super effective damage and the other two for neutral damage with its STABs. Regarding the water weakness, this is made less of an issue when you factor in the Sp.D bonus(specifically useful against Greninja, a special attacker) from sand or water being weakened by sun. Without going into specifics, the water weakness could be made into less of an issue or removed entirely with good stats/abilities. On the offense, Rock/Bug is pretty good, so CAP 24 would really only need ice coverage to be able to take on Lando and Tomo.
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I understand that there are a lot of things to consider when making this CAP but I think a lot of posts here have somehow transformed into supporting generically good typings and only barely relating it to the concept afterwards. Sure, checking X, Y, Z thing is helpful for Sun or Sand and we have to pick what is worth checking eventually and typing is the first and easiest step in doing so. That said... I personally am saddened by the lack of discussion on the weather itself and how CAP24 would benefit from the weather by virtue of its typing (as opposed to it just beating XYZ thing the weather struggles with). Having some aspect of its typing actually synergize with the weather is important to me so that CAP24 is encourages to actually utilize both of its weather.
As a brief interlude before I start talking about typings, I do just want to say that the ability to check XYZ has inevitably caused a certain Pokemon's name to come up quite a lot, and this mon's name came up quite a lot last CAP too. I'm talking about Tomohawk of course. Yes, Tomohawk is a staple in the metagame. Yes, Fairy and Flying-types generally do well against Tomohawk. However, in regards to a weather concept, I don't see why Tomohawk is all that relevant, let alone at the typing stage. Tomohawk is defeated by so many things other than just its opponent having SE STAB. Really, if we're worried about Tomohawk AND the concept simultaneously, then the biggest thing to talk about is Rain Dance Tomohawk and how Tomohawk on Rain Teams has the potential to mess with CAP24 if we don't handle typing properly. Well, that *would* be a big thing to talk about, except the part where there's probably even more threatening rain mons to consider... So uh, Tomohawk? I don't see it being as big of a thing for this concept as some people seem to think. Additionally, so many things handle Tomohawk without the merit of typing, including with just special bulk, toxic, neutral special attack STAB, SE special attack coverage, etc...
So, back to how CAP can directly synergize with Sun/Sand. Really, I think having at least one of our typings benefit directly from at least one of the weathers is important. People have already mentioned the Rock-type's ability to boost Sp.Def in the sand so I won't talk too much about that other than say I think it's pretty cool boost the merits consideration. Some people have also mentioned the Grass-type's ability to use Solarbeam, Solar Blade, and Weather Ball in the sun but have argued that Power Whip is just a better, more reliable version on Solar Blade. For the most part this logic holds true, but on the special side there's really no hard hitting equivalent of Power Whip that isn't legendary exclusive, which does leave Solarbeam with a potential niche. Solarbeam isn't uncommon on the Drought setter Zard Y, and if CAP itself can set Sun then I think Solarbeam is a usable move. Is it the end all be all? Definitely not. But I don't think it should be discarded from the get go. Some people have been knocking on the Grass typing as being offensively very poor. However, the metagame has seen an increase in bulky Water-types (to check Volkraken, etc, plus Arghonaut's sudden surge in viability after updates) and if we recognize Rain to be a problem to Sun/Sand then being able to hit something like Mega Swampert could be valuable as well. Is Grass on its own a great stand alone typing? No, it's really not that great on its own, but it does stuff at least. And luckily for us, CAP24 can have two tyings and not just one.
I think Grass/Rock actually synergizes pretty well, both with each other to remedy many of their weaknesses but also with the concept. Grass and Rock both gain a bit from the different weathers and neither are really hurt by the other weather (maybe being weak to Excadrill's Iron Head in the sand is scary, but it's not in the realm of impossibility to have stats compensate for this or to have teammates). I know the beginning of the thread had some support for this typing and then it died down, but really I think it's definitely got some merits. Its a typing that handles both of its intended weathers while getting feasible buffs while being able to handle opposing rain. The only things in the CAP metagame that resists both Rock and Grass STAB off the top of my head are Kitsunoh, Magearna, and Kartana, which really isn't that long of a list.
Deck Knight's suggestion of Rock/Dragon is something I think has potential and I could see it working, but being weak to a number of powerful Ground-types on Sand Teams is a bit scary to me (I think being weak to Excadrill's Iron Head is forgivable for Grass/Rock but remember that Earthquake has 20 more BP than Iron Head, so I am fairly concerned about our ability to handle that power increase). Dragon's defensive qualities are still a nice compliment to Rock's defensive weaknesses and helps CAP24 deal with Sun and Rain threats though, so it's not something I would dismiss outright.
Dragon/Fairy to me seems like a generically good typing and offers little benefit to the concept. Sure, it can beat up some opposing weather opponents but it stacks the Steel and Ice weaknesses that Grass/Rock has without any of the direct weather benefits that the later receives due to its typing.
In general I think reach has supported Water/Fairy quite well and he has linked it back to the concept better than others in the thread. However, Fairy/Water also suffers from the same generically good typing complaint as the above, just to maybe a bit lesser of an extent. I can see it working as a good anti-weather mon or even an anti-anti-weather mon beating anti-weather mons... but... to me the concept is weather, not anti-anti-weather and a bit of that synergy with the weather itself is lost in Water/Fairy in favor or just checking things that check weather. Really, one of my fears is that without direct synergy with the weather itself, the anti-anti-weather CAPmon just becomes... something good to use freely on non weather teams more often than on weather ones (anti-anti-weather doesn't inherently mean pro weather, especially without any direct benefits for the mon to use weather itself and I want a pro Sun/Sand mon morseo than just an anti-ant-weather mon).
In terms of DLC's suggestions, I personally like Electric/Flying far more than Fairy/Flying since I think DLC tried to sell Fairy/Flying as a great defensive typing but Electric/Flying just does it better in the current metagame. I'm not particularly fond of either because they lack direct weather benefits though, but I do like Electric/Flying far more than any of the Fairy types proposed so far... Really, I don't get the allue of Fairies for this concept, and you can see my above piece on Tomohawk and why I don't think it's that big of a deal.
So uh, those are my thoughts at this time. I personally want us to be pro Sun and Sand, not just anti-anti-weather. Sure both can happen, but I definitely want the the former alongside the latter and I don't want to see anti-anti-weather without also being pro due to its own synergy.
Also, more of an aside, Fire/Grass is something I haven't seen discussed but it also checks a number of my boxes in terms of having direct weather benefits, being neutral or positive vs opposing weather, and having a good mix of defensive/offensive qualities. Really the main problem with Fire/Grass is that it has SR weakness, which is why I prefer Grass/Rock, but I think this flaw is more forgivable than other flaws in this discussion.
/end another edition of HeaL's minority opinions.
As a brief interlude before I start talking about typings, I do just want to say that the ability to check XYZ has inevitably caused a certain Pokemon's name to come up quite a lot, and this mon's name came up quite a lot last CAP too. I'm talking about Tomohawk of course. Yes, Tomohawk is a staple in the metagame. Yes, Fairy and Flying-types generally do well against Tomohawk. However, in regards to a weather concept, I don't see why Tomohawk is all that relevant, let alone at the typing stage. Tomohawk is defeated by so many things other than just its opponent having SE STAB. Really, if we're worried about Tomohawk AND the concept simultaneously, then the biggest thing to talk about is Rain Dance Tomohawk and how Tomohawk on Rain Teams has the potential to mess with CAP24 if we don't handle typing properly. Well, that *would* be a big thing to talk about, except the part where there's probably even more threatening rain mons to consider... So uh, Tomohawk? I don't see it being as big of a thing for this concept as some people seem to think. Additionally, so many things handle Tomohawk without the merit of typing, including with just special bulk, toxic, neutral special attack STAB, SE special attack coverage, etc...
So, back to how CAP can directly synergize with Sun/Sand. Really, I think having at least one of our typings benefit directly from at least one of the weathers is important. People have already mentioned the Rock-type's ability to boost Sp.Def in the sand so I won't talk too much about that other than say I think it's pretty cool boost the merits consideration. Some people have also mentioned the Grass-type's ability to use Solarbeam, Solar Blade, and Weather Ball in the sun but have argued that Power Whip is just a better, more reliable version on Solar Blade. For the most part this logic holds true, but on the special side there's really no hard hitting equivalent of Power Whip that isn't legendary exclusive, which does leave Solarbeam with a potential niche. Solarbeam isn't uncommon on the Drought setter Zard Y, and if CAP itself can set Sun then I think Solarbeam is a usable move. Is it the end all be all? Definitely not. But I don't think it should be discarded from the get go. Some people have been knocking on the Grass typing as being offensively very poor. However, the metagame has seen an increase in bulky Water-types (to check Volkraken, etc, plus Arghonaut's sudden surge in viability after updates) and if we recognize Rain to be a problem to Sun/Sand then being able to hit something like Mega Swampert could be valuable as well. Is Grass on its own a great stand alone typing? No, it's really not that great on its own, but it does stuff at least. And luckily for us, CAP24 can have two tyings and not just one.
I think Grass/Rock actually synergizes pretty well, both with each other to remedy many of their weaknesses but also with the concept. Grass and Rock both gain a bit from the different weathers and neither are really hurt by the other weather (maybe being weak to Excadrill's Iron Head in the sand is scary, but it's not in the realm of impossibility to have stats compensate for this or to have teammates). I know the beginning of the thread had some support for this typing and then it died down, but really I think it's definitely got some merits. Its a typing that handles both of its intended weathers while getting feasible buffs while being able to handle opposing rain. The only things in the CAP metagame that resists both Rock and Grass STAB off the top of my head are Kitsunoh, Magearna, and Kartana, which really isn't that long of a list.
Deck Knight's suggestion of Rock/Dragon is something I think has potential and I could see it working, but being weak to a number of powerful Ground-types on Sand Teams is a bit scary to me (I think being weak to Excadrill's Iron Head is forgivable for Grass/Rock but remember that Earthquake has 20 more BP than Iron Head, so I am fairly concerned about our ability to handle that power increase). Dragon's defensive qualities are still a nice compliment to Rock's defensive weaknesses and helps CAP24 deal with Sun and Rain threats though, so it's not something I would dismiss outright.
Dragon/Fairy to me seems like a generically good typing and offers little benefit to the concept. Sure, it can beat up some opposing weather opponents but it stacks the Steel and Ice weaknesses that Grass/Rock has without any of the direct weather benefits that the later receives due to its typing.
In general I think reach has supported Water/Fairy quite well and he has linked it back to the concept better than others in the thread. However, Fairy/Water also suffers from the same generically good typing complaint as the above, just to maybe a bit lesser of an extent. I can see it working as a good anti-weather mon or even an anti-anti-weather mon beating anti-weather mons... but... to me the concept is weather, not anti-anti-weather and a bit of that synergy with the weather itself is lost in Water/Fairy in favor or just checking things that check weather. Really, one of my fears is that without direct synergy with the weather itself, the anti-anti-weather CAPmon just becomes... something good to use freely on non weather teams more often than on weather ones (anti-anti-weather doesn't inherently mean pro weather, especially without any direct benefits for the mon to use weather itself and I want a pro Sun/Sand mon morseo than just an anti-ant-weather mon).
In terms of DLC's suggestions, I personally like Electric/Flying far more than Fairy/Flying since I think DLC tried to sell Fairy/Flying as a great defensive typing but Electric/Flying just does it better in the current metagame. I'm not particularly fond of either because they lack direct weather benefits though, but I do like Electric/Flying far more than any of the Fairy types proposed so far... Really, I don't get the allue of Fairies for this concept, and you can see my above piece on Tomohawk and why I don't think it's that big of a deal.
So uh, those are my thoughts at this time. I personally want us to be pro Sun and Sand, not just anti-anti-weather. Sure both can happen, but I definitely want the the former alongside the latter and I don't want to see anti-anti-weather without also being pro due to its own synergy.
Also, more of an aside, Fire/Grass is something I haven't seen discussed but it also checks a number of my boxes in terms of having direct weather benefits, being neutral or positive vs opposing weather, and having a good mix of defensive/offensive qualities. Really the main problem with Fire/Grass is that it has SR weakness, which is why I prefer Grass/Rock, but I think this flaw is more forgivable than other flaws in this discussion.
/end another edition of HeaL's minority opinions.
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