Burning Qurans?

[Tayla]

It's just like Middle Easterners burning the US flag. Yet we over in the Western world are generally more accepting that not all Muslims are radical, nor do they condone the burning of our symbols. They are apathetic, and some of them even sympathize. But radicals will use anything, from anyone. They don't make discrepancies nor exceptions for the citizens of this country. They want us all dead, period, and just because "some" citizens are doing it basically means "all" to them.

I think you have the right to be angry about it, but preaching death? I don't think so..

 

[Aqueos]

I think authorities will most likely step in and stop the show before it ever happens. I'm sure higher ups are well aware of the damage this could cause to the US.

Problem here. The only way to stop this is to convince this guy otherwise. The only thing he's doing that is illegal is making a bonfire without a burn permit.

 

[Alexa888]

Thankfully, the horrific stunk has been called off

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/21/20100909/tuk-planned-9-11-koran-burning-scrapped-6323e80.html

 

[Bad Ass]

i can honestly say that i do not mind radical islamists burning the american flag. and i consider people (americans like this, etc) are also radicals, and america should probably be more afraid of them than iran or the taliban or pakistan or whatever. this is a hate crime. glad to see it called off.

 

[Aqueos]

OK I'll leave this open for a bit longer to make sure this really is called of. Once 9/11 passes I'll definitely get this locked.

 

[Mikazukinoyaiba]

I should be allowed to issue death threats

Under freedom of speech, no you aren't. Haven't you been paying attention?

By burning a Quran you're basically saying "I have Islam right here in my hand oops it's on fire now there goes your religion hah

I still think this is stupid, just as running into a burning building is. You can just buy a Quran from a bookstore just like with any Bible, it's just paper with words on it. The meaning of the words make the religion, not the books themselves.

 

[CaptKirby]

oh come on

I fully agree with DM: either it's all good or none of it is. Free speech is either absolute or non-existent. The line I draw is when an act causes direct harm to someone, so punching someone in the face is acceptable but telling them they're a jerk is.

Oh come on my ass. There is a difference between free speech and hateful provocation, and this is very much "hate speech". As far as legality or illegality goes, well, if flag burning is legal then this has to be legal too, but I believe both should be illegal. The "Western World" should have, by gaining knowledge, moved beyond ridiculous shit like book burnings longggg ago. A book burning can only express one thing - ignorant, expressly hateful opposition to the way someone else lives or knowledge (in this case not so much the knowledge). This is 2010, we are smarter than this.

There is a difference between saying something insulting to Muslims somewhere in the United States / on the vast void of the internet or burning shitloads of a "holy book".

Now to get past an illegality/legality issue, this guy is obviously a complete ignorant hateful dumbfuck and it is really sad he can get any attention. I was going to say anyone who supported this could not logically be a real "christian", but then again, this is a religion which both preached tolerance and has glorified war stories about god/person who is a tool of god destroying tons of "heathens"...so I guess it is not that out of line with historical Christianity, it is just out of line with modern fucking common sensibility.

 

[Mikazukinoyaiba]

Oh come on my ass. There is a difference between free speech and hateful provocation, and this is very much "hate speech".

Nope, not hate speech.

 

[CaptKirby]

Outside of legality it is 100% hate speech (targeted at a religion to tell them that they are hated, for 9/11 and existing in general), but I think it is obviously provocative enough to be hate speech under the legal definition too. Just making a post where you say "nope not hate speech" is detrimental to discussion. If you want to make a claim counter to something I spent a lot of time surrounding with points, then you need to make at least one actual logical argument to back yourself up.

Hate speech is, outside the law, any communication which disparages a person or a group on the basis of some characteristic such as race or sexual orientation.[1][2] In law, hate speech is any speech, gesture or conduct, writing, or display which is forbidden because it may incite violence or prejudicial action against or by a protected individual or group, or because it disparages or intimidates a protected individual or group. The law may identify a protected individual or a protected group by race, gender, ethnicity, nationality, religion, sexual orientation, or other characteristic.

 

[mattj]

So what was the point of all of this?

Not just this thread, but all the hate, screaming, chanting "DEATH TO AMERICA", accusations, heads of state holding press conferences and interviews, and constant media attention?

Nothing
Ever
Actually
Happened

 

[Mikazukinoyaiba]

Outside of legality it is 100% hate speech (targeted at a religion to tell them that they are hated, for 9/11 and existing in general), but I think it is obviously provocative enough to be hate speech under the legal definition too. Just making a post where you say "nope not hate speech" is detrimental to discussion. If you want to make a claim counter to something I spent a lot of time surrounding with points, then you need to make at least one actual logical argument to back yourself up.
.

Well I was largely addressing that legally, it isn't hate speech but you already addressed that.

As for your non-legal definition:

Any person or a group on the basis of some characteristic such as race or sexual orientation.[1][2] In law, hate speech is any speech, gesture or conduct, writing, or display which is forbidden because it may incite violence or prejudicial action against or by a protected individual or group, or because it disparages or intimidates a protected individual or group

Al-Qaeda I wouldn't count as being a protected group, they are already pissed at the West for various reasons. They are a bunch of psychos and are clearly not rational, so how can it be hate speech against a group that is already pretty violent over even petty things?

Honestly, I could burn a flag, a Bible, etc and not be expected to be charged of "hate speech" but just because a group of people want to be completely irrational suddenly it's hate speech?

 

[DM]

They're not burning the Qur'an to get at Al Qaeda, they're burning the Qur'an to show Muslims worldwide that they are disliked greatly by certain sects of extremist American religiophytes. Huge difference.

 

[Mikazukinoyaiba]

They're not burning the Qur'an to get at Al Qaeda

Not the point, by his definition of "hate speech" it is so if it will incite violence from a certain group or advocates violence towards a certain group.

Burning Qurans certainly was not inciting violence towards Muslims or Al-Qaeda, however it certainly was going to incite violence from Al-Qaeda apparently (although hardly uniquely).

Either way, anyone who does react violently to the burning of the Quran certainly isn't in the right as in no way do they have a need to be afraid for their lives or fear any violent action.

This is just all PC crap and Muslim apologists are being sensitive nillys.

 

[cookie]

Burning a book may incite racial hatred as a side-effect and that may even be the pastor's intention, but it is not something that should be made illegal as inciting hatred because that's "the fault" of the Muslims who hold it so dearly. It's their problem, not the book-burner's. There is a difference between calling for the death of all Muslims (for example) and burning the Quran: the former invariably comes under the definition of hate speech unless Muslims enjoy getting killed (and as much as I believe it infringes on my idealistic view of free speech it's illegal); the latter only discriminates against Muslims because they get offended by it, based on irrational beliefs. I don't see why the law should pander to that.

 

[Aqueos]

So what was the point of all of this?

Not just this thread, but all the hate, screaming, chanting "DEATH TO AMERICA", accusations, heads of state holding press conferences and interviews, and constant media attention?

Nothing
Ever
Actually
Happened

Well, this was all predictions and your opinions on it. I made this thread before that was announced. And the guy claimed he could not be convinced otherwise, and no one knew the imam would be this flexible. In general this guy backing off has surpsrised everyone. If this had happened it would have huge affects which is why the media was covering it, not to mention its connection to the big mosque mess. I'm just leaving this thread unlocked until 9/11 passes just in case this guy is not happy with what happens here. PEOPLE THE GUY IS NOT GOING TO BURN THE QURANS unless he changes his mind again. mods can feel free to lock this thread on 9/12 just to make sure he doesn't go fickle on us. If he does it anyway please do not lock this thread.

 

[Veedrock]

Well, this was all predictions and your opinions on it. I made this thread before that was announced. And the guy claimed he could not be convinced otherwise, and no one knew the imam would be this flexible.

Except as soon as he claimed there was an agreement made the imam immediately discredited it.

PEOPLE THE GUY IS NOT GOING TO BURN THE QURANS unless he changes his mind again.

Yeah, he's already announced that he's reconsidering after the imam told reporters there was no negotiation.

 

[Sy123]

Under freedom of speech, no you aren't. Haven't you been paying attention?


I still think this is stupid, just as running into a burning building is. You can just buy a Quran from a bookstore just like with any Bible, it's just paper with words on it. The meaning of the words make the religion, not the books themselves.

Do you realise what the Quran is?
Its something Muslims look up to for guidance, something some Muslims take care to read/mermorize and put into action in life.
You clearly dont care because you are not Muslim, how would you like it if something so precious of yours, being burned, by something for hate?
Unless your Dr.Nefarious from Ratchet and Clank then there is something wrong with you.
I dont see words being uttered, so it isnt free speech
Only you (and some others) of all of smogon are not against this, its free speech to say what you just wrongfully said, what you said was very very racist indeed

 

[Aqueos]

Ooh, reconsidering already? Oh god this guy is adamant.

 

[Mikazukinoyaiba]

Do you realise what the Quran is?
Its something Muslims look up to for guidance, something some Muslims take care to read/mermorize and put into action in life.
You clearly dont care because you are not Muslim

I also clearly don't care because I know the Quran is easily replacable and I can also look towards Christians and know they won't go ape shit crazy if I did the same to the Bible.

how would you like it if something so precious of yours, being burned, by something for hate?

I'd be mad, but I wouldn't threaten to kill people. Also since we're talking about a book here... I'd buy another copy.

Unless your Dr.Nefarious from Ratchet and Clank then there is something wrong with you.

No, there is something wrong with you. See? I can throw ad hominems too.

I dont see words being uttered, so it isnt free speech

Don't be so pendatic, you and I both know that expression isn't only limited to vocal language and words.

Only you (and some others) of all of smogon are not against this, its free speech to say what you just wrongfully said, what you said was very very racist indeed

Now attacking a strawman I see. Also ironically you're the racist, since Islam is a religion and not an ethnicity. :/

 

[PttP]

I also clearly don't care because I know the Quran is easily replacable and I can also look towards Christians and know they won't go ape shit crazy if I did the same to the Bible. I'd be mad, but I wouldn't threaten to kill people. Also since we're talking about a book here... I'd buy another copy.

Muslims don't even let the Quran touch the floor, they don't take the Quran as "just another book". They take it much more seriously than most other religions because the words are the words of God and to do anything not respectful to the book is just horrible. They may have a deep love or whatever cookie said, but that's their choice. Besides, no one is threatening to kill anybody yet, and no matter how you look at it burning a religious symbol is just being a dick.

 

[Tsunami]

This publicity stunt is going to hurt those families of 9/11 as well. Why would he try to take attention away from those families whose loved ones died in an act of terrorism and their memorial service to his group of radicals?

 

[Mikazukinoyaiba]

Muslims don't even let the Quran touch the floor, they don't take the Quran as "just another book". They take it much more seriously than most other religions because the words are the words of God and to do anything not respectful to the book is just horrible. They may have a deep love or whatever cookie said, but that's their choice.

And no one is taking that choice away from them. But they certainly shouldn't expect others to view the Quran in the same way.

Besides, no one is threatening to kill anybody yet,

Have you not been watching the news lately?

and no matter how you look at it burning a religious symbol is just being a dick.

People give religion and religious symbols too much respect in the first place. People are entitled to belief the things they want to, but certainly shouldn't expect others to hold the same things they do to be sacred or feel entitled to it in some way. Read the first chapter of Richard Dawkin's "God Delusion" if you want to understand what I mean by the undeserved and awkwardly high amount of "respect" religion is treated with.

Honestly this is all silly.

 

[Banedon]

Do you realise what the Quran is?
Its something Muslims look up to for guidance, something some Muslims take care to read/mermorize and put into action in life.
You clearly dont care because you are not Muslim, how would you like it if something so precious of yours, being burned, by something for hate?
Unless your Dr.Nefarious from Ratchet and Clank then there is something wrong with you.
I dont see words being uttered, so it isnt free speech
Only you (and some others) of all of smogon are not against this, its free speech to say what you just wrongfully said, what you said was very very racist indeed

Suppose you come home from work one day to find that your house has been broken into, all the valuables in the house stolen and all the Qu'rans in the house burned - their ashes are still in the house. Is your first reaction:

1. Thank Allah me / my spouse / children weren't in the house when the thieves broke into the house, we may have lost money but at least nobody was hurt;
2. Oh dear ... how am I going to find the $$$ to replace all my stuff;
3. WTF ARE THESE HERETICS DOING BURNING THE QURAN!?!?

Give me an honest answer.

 

[Invective]

hey guys, in my religion i follow the teachings of logs to the letter, and as such consider logs to be holy materials.
therefore i take offense to anyone who burns logs.
however, i realize not everyone feels the same way about logs as i do.
it is their prerogative to burn logs, just as it is mine to follow the teachings of logs.

 

[Acklow]

Right now, it seems as though we are being a little too sardonic of each other's posts. In all honesty, I am happy this guy isn't going with his plan to burn the Qur'an. And I'm especially going to be surprised to see how the whole mosque-in-New York City ordeal turned/might turn out. Anyways, like Aqueos said, this story isn't over until the day passes by. So we'll see how 9-11 turns out.