Battling 101 Redesign

[Blue Kirby]

Some of you may have noticed that tutor applications were open for a brief period of time, and may be wondering why they have been closed so abruptly. This is because I'm working on implementing some changes to the way Battling 101 runs. While the system has worked fairly smoothly over the year or so that I've taken charge, it isn't without its flaws, and I've decided it's high time I do something about it. As a result, I don't see the point in adding new tutors to a system that will be changing quite drastically just yet. I will hold on to the applications I've received, however, and come looking for you when the time arrives.

This also means that Round 45 will be the last round of tutoring for a little while pending the redesign of Battling 101. I don't have an ETA just yet, but as soon as I've made further progress I'll let everyone know. I know people will be curious about what it actually is I'm doing, and I'll be making a post concerning that in this thread at a later date. Just know that Battling 101 will have a far more prominent place on the Smogon site than the tired old section that exists at the moment.

I'll leave this thread open for a bit to answer any queries any one has - and I do expect that people will have read this post before they reply. Any stupid questions or comments will be removed and infractions handed out as per usual.

Thanks in advance for your patience, everyone.

 

[Exarius]

In the 2 last Battling 101-rounds, you've had an announcement about a better sign-up system for more tutees to have a tutor. I see that it will be under this change, but can you shed some light on how it will happen at this point, or do we have to wait for the later post?

 

[The Hitman]

In the 2 last Battling 101-rounds, you've had an announcement about a better sign-up system for more tutees to have a tutor. I see that it will be under this change, but can you shed some light on how it will happen at this point, or do we have to wait for the later post?

Absolutely. The sign up system is quite flawed right now. I've missed the last three sign ups. First, for coming too late. Secondly, for being AFK during the short sign up time, and lastly not even knowing when sign ups were posted. I'd really like to know how this would be pached up. Thanks for all your work on the program Blue Kirby, nice to see some change aswell

 

[The Plant]

Everytime you say some preference will be given to older contributory members. I feel it should. Howeve little seems to be given so I don't think it should state there is any.

 

[Flamewheeler]

Everytime you say some preference will be given to older contributory members. I feel it should. Howeve little seems to be given so I don't think it should state there is any.

I disagree completely. Just because someone has been visiting longer shoul dnot give them any more rights than others wanting to learn just as much. The first come, first serve thing can get a little competetive, especially trying to get a spot, but giving preference to older members will only make things worse. That's like saying, sign up when you feel like it and if you've been here long enough, you're in. I'm not trying to start an argument, so please don't take it that way. Thanks for the update BK. I'll being looking forward to the next round!

 

[CTangent]

Everytime you say some preference will be given to older contributory members. I feel it should. Howeve little seems to be given so I don't think it should state there is any.

I've been lurking at this site for a long while, but I have been unable to say/contribute anything constructive because of how little I know compared to the seasoned competitive battlers. I tried to figure it out myself, but I'd be able to learn so much more through a tutor. (I missed the last signup.)

An old forum I used to frequent had a tounge-in-cheek saying: "Anybody with a user ID over 1000 doesn't matter." That sort of idea is toxic, since you begin turning away possibly good contributors because you favor ones already contributing.

 

[rcghalohell]

hi i just registered to the forums and just here to say wow, 45 rounds, thats alot of rounds lol
well this is my first post
check my profile if u want and let me no when this pokemon 101 is back up and running k? u guys rock!

 

[Zach]

hi i just registered to the forums and just here to say wow, 45 rounds, thats alot of rounds lol
well this is my first post
check my profile if u want and let me no when this pokemon 101 is back up and running k? u guys rock!

Theres just a bit to much going on in this site and in real life to worry about letting one random person know when the tutor program is back up, you just gotta check each day.

Enjoy smogon btw.

 

[Mrobinson587]

Theres just a bit to much going on in this site and in real life to worry about letting one random person know when the tutor program is back up, you just gotta check each day.

Enjoy smogon btw.

Sometimes there is a bit too much going on in real life to check Smogon every day. I missed some rounds I wanted to sign up for despite daily checks on Smogon... those threads fill up fast and certain timezones get the advantage.

Here is my idea for the system after doing some brainstorming at work.


-Having a sign up application/programwith your Smogon account. Could be automated with some programming so it wouldn't have to go through a thread.
-Have a random selection after a sign up .
-If you signed up last round your chances of being selected would be decreased. Also could be handled with some programming.
-If you signed up last round and didn't get picked your chances increase.
-Then the people that get selected(option to automatically PM them?) are posted in a thread, give their experience and background and are assigned tutors like it has been.

I'm sure the idea of building a on site program for signups isn't pleasant and I certainly don't currently have the necessary skills, but an automated sign up process would save everyone time after the initial investment.

 

[Blue Kirby]

Okay, I said I'd post with my plan, so here's a rough idea. It doesn't encompass everything, but it gives you a good idea of the new sign-up process, and that seems to be what everyone wants to here about. Twash came up with a brilliant idea a while back concerning sign-ups, and this is the process I've settled on running with. Problems with the current system have been identified as:

• Inactive tutees - Some members are receiving tutoring simply aren't active enough to have a working relationship. The current system is kind of annoying in this sense as it saps a lot of the time in the round by the time your tutee is replaced with another, after deciding s/he is inactive.
• First come, first serve - Currently the application process involved users signing up as fast as possible due to the "first come, first serve" way that the application process is currently ran. This makes it hard for people in particular timezones, and may mean people consistently miss out.
• Timezones - I don't generally find a problem with the current system when it comes to timezones but it seems as though a few others sometimes get unlucky and it's not fair on either the tutee or the tutor to an extent.
• Tutor Circumstances - While not an issue most of the time, sometimes unforeseen circumstances prevent a tutor finishing with their tutee, and while it can't be helped it isn't really fair on the tutee.

An excerpt from twash's post:

The simple idea is that the tutoring program turns from a two-week period into a continuous flowing time period with far less stops.

We would start for having signup threads for the major timezones across the globe - obviously trying to cover as much of the timezones as possible without being ridiculously over the top. Potential tutees can then "apply" to the timezone by posting in the specified thread. Instead of the current "if you didn't make it, bad luck" system we kind of have, the tutees would form a queue. The tutors can then apply to take the tutees in order, working through the list. If there is an issue with a tutee being inactive, he gets crossed off in the thread and the tutor moves onto the next tutee. On top of this, it also allows tutors to decide when they want to move onto the next tutee (though obviously we keep tabs on it so it is reasonable). It makes it much easier as instead of having to tutor for two weeks when you may need more/less, the tutor gets to decide.

While the first come, first serve system is still there to an extent, it is less annoying as people can no longer consistently miss out which was arguably the problem with it previously (at least in my view). People can swiftly move on from their tutees if there is a problem, which makes the whole process easier for the tutees and the tutors (and means they actually get the chance to tutor!).

Of course, reviewing PMs of the tutor would still be sent by the tutee. By doing this is gets rid of anything where the tutor may try to move on from their tutee because they prefer the next tutee on the list and get along with them well. It means they have to tutor them provided they are active and workable, or they are likely to recieve a poor review in private. If the potentially tutees are willing to actually become tutees, they will accept a couple of weeks wait for a good tutoring session instead of missing out consistently for months (and it means we can see the 1 post people who disappeared after their first post).

If the system becomes overloaded for any reason, we merely close the signups for a while, and run through the queue. Obviously the signup thread would be open for a fair while so it's not like it's a rush -- if you post, you'll get tutored if you follow the rules. On top of this, because people are applying to a timezone, it means the different timezone groups don't have to all close/open signups at the same time, making it much easier.

twash mentions sign up threads, but like I said in the OP, I do plan on adding an application to the site to handle this. The beauty of this process is that if for whatever reason that falls through, it can still be quite easily implemented here in the Battling 101 forum directly.

So, there's your glimpse of things to come!

 

[DJXO9]

Okay, I said I'd post with my plan, so here's a rough idea. It doesn't encompass everything, but it gives you a good idea of the new sign-up process, and that seems to be what everyone wants to here about. Twash came up with a brilliant idea a while back concerning sign-ups, and this is the process I've settled on running with. Problems with the current system have been identified as:

• Inactive tutees - Some members are receiving tutoring simply aren't active enough to have a working relationship. The current system is kind of annoying in this sense as it saps a lot of the time in the round by the time your tutee is replaced with another, after deciding s/he is inactive.
• First come, first serve - Currently the application process involved users signing up as fast as possible due to the "first come, first serve" way that the application process is currently ran. This makes it hard for people in particular timezones, and may mean people consistently miss out.
• Timezones - I don't generally find a problem with the current system when it comes to timezones but it seems as though a few others sometimes get unlucky and it's not fair on either the tutee or the tutor to an extent.
• Tutor Circumstances - While not an issue most of the time, sometimes unforeseen circumstances prevent a tutor finishing with their tutee, and while it can't be helped it isn't really fair on the tutee.

An excerpt from twash's post:



twash mentions sign up threads, but like I said in the OP, I do plan on adding an application to the site to handle this. The beauty of this process is that if for whatever reason that falls through, it can still be quite easily implemented here in the Battling 101 forum directly.

So, there's your glimpse of things to come!

Wow. That's pretty good. It eliminates the flaws of the current system beautifully. I would flow so much smoother, due to the loss of "rounds". It's just an enormous cycle. I like it.

 

[Redostrike]

Okay, I said I'd post with my plan, so here's a rough idea. It doesn't encompass everything, but it gives you a good idea of the new sign-up process, and that seems to be what everyone wants to here about. Twash came up with a brilliant idea a while back concerning sign-ups, and this is the process I've settled on running with. Problems with the current system have been identified as:

• Inactive tutees - Some members are receiving tutoring simply aren't active enough to have a working relationship. The current system is kind of annoying in this sense as it saps a lot of the time in the round by the time your tutee is replaced with another, after deciding s/he is inactive.
• First come, first serve - Currently the application process involved users signing up as fast as possible due to the "first come, first serve" way that the application process is currently ran. This makes it hard for people in particular timezones, and may mean people consistently miss out.
• Timezones - I don't generally find a problem with the current system when it comes to timezones but it seems as though a few others sometimes get unlucky and it's not fair on either the tutee or the tutor to an extent.
• Tutor Circumstances - While not an issue most of the time, sometimes unforeseen circumstances prevent a tutor finishing with their tutee, and while it can't be helped it isn't really fair on the tutee.

That would indeed be a bit more fair. I've tryed to apply a few times now and 2 times i was to late (timezone issue). The other time i just missed out by one place :( wich is very annoying as i almost had a spot and then next time i needed to reapply when i was soo close.

I really hope this works (and when it becomes this way). Something to keep in mind for the queue would also be that you cant make it too long. If your thinking of 100 people where most need 2 full weeks :naughty: thats going to be interesting. If your never applyed before then you gonna go wait for a few months to get tutored. This offcourse depends on the amount of tutors.

 

[Exarius]

I really hope this works (and when it becomes this way). Something to keep in mind for the queue would also be that you cant make it too long. If your thinking of 100 people where most need 2 full weeks :naughty: thats going to be interesting. If your never applyed before then you gonna go wait for a few months to get tutored. This offcourse depends on the amount of tutors.

there is around 20-30 tutors. so that amount would be tutored at the same time, depending of course. so hundred tutees with ~2 weeks of tutoring would take ~6-10 weeks

 

[Flamewheeler]

I kind of like this idea, although splitting into timezones seems a bit over the top. Also, the extensive amount of tutoring for the tutors seems like hard work for them. When I heard of "more applicants being accepted", I expected more of a 2 to 1/ 3 to 1 ratio. xD. Kind of like a classroom tutoring session lol, but if this works then I'll take it. I've missed out on enough rounds already, so I'm ready for a new process!

 

[Redostrike]

there is around 20-30 tutors. so that amount would be tutored at the same time, depending of course. so hundred tutees with ~2 weeks of tutoring would take ~6-10 weeks

Yeah but if these would be split up in Timezones then they are not much over for some timezones. Lets pretend to break them up only in 3 timezones (and the tutors are well divided into those timezones) then we all have 7-10 per time zone and keep the 100 queue's per timezone. All full 2 weeks that's still a few months you need to wait if your the last one queued.

Keep in mind that there are 24 equal geographically-based time zones in the world (if i'm correct, i just googled it). A few could be put togheter (with a few hours 1-2 appart).

 

[Blue Kirby]

It isn't really any additional work for the tutors as they are still only going to be tutoring one person at a time, there is just a queue (or more to the point, organized queues) formed as to which tutees have priority.

There is no point getting into pedantics over how long it'll take to receive tutoring if you're X in line, since the tutee and tutor will be deciding how long the period actually does last within reason. Additionally, the ratio of tutors to tutees is markedly small, so people are bound to have to wait for what is such a "limited resource".

 

[les gets]

I don't think this has been mentioned yet: I'm assuming there wouldn't be a limit to how many times you can sign yourself up for a tutor?

 

[twash]

I really hope this works (and when it becomes this way). Something to keep in mind for the queue would also be that you cant make it too long. If your thinking of 100 people where most need 2 full weeks :naughty: thats going to be interesting. If your never applyed before then you gonna go wait for a few months to get tutored. This offcourse depends on the amount of tutors.

A long queue will almost certainly get annoying at times. But the rate of tutoring will stay the same as it is currently, just this time there is a guaranteed spot for everybody at some point. I'm sure people are willing to wait a while to use such an practical resource as opposed to missing out for ages due to the current signup system.

Closing the signups for tutees now and then is likely to deal with the problem of an overly large queue to an extent, as it means the tutees get enough time to sign up for tutoring, and the tutors aren't put under huge amounts of pressure. It's not like a "only the first few posters get in" system, because the signups are going to be open long enough for anybody planning on being tutored to sign up.

I kind of like this idea, although splitting into timezones seems a bit over the top.

Splitting it into timezones really isn't OTT, if anything it actually simplifies it. It means that people get to choose the timezone meaning they don't miss out, tutors are more likely to meet their tutees, and the signup process becomes easier as we don't have to manually sort through and pair people up. It makes it easier if there is a problem with the problem above (overly large queues), as each timezone can do the signups at their own pace. It also makes it tidier in general.

Also, the extensive amount of tutoring for the tutors seems like hard work for them. When I heard of "more applicants being accepted", I expected more of a 2 to 1/ 3 to 1 ratio. xD. Kind of like a classroom tutoring session lol, but if this works then I'll take it.

As BK said, it's still one on one tutoring. I don't really see an issue with letting a tutor take more than one tutee at once if they want to, though. I'm sure it's something that can be worked on.

I don't think this has been mentioned yet: I'm assuming there wouldn't be a limit to how many times you can sign yourself up for a tutor?

Evidently it's likely to only be one signup at a time (ie. no signing up more than once until your current placing is gone). Users go to the bottom of the queue next time they sign up, so I don't particularly see harm in letting users apply once their current round has finished. Ideally, if the increase in tutoring works as we hope, there will be less need for members to sign up more than a couple of times.

 

[Pink]

I'm not trying to sound like an elitist asshole hear, but there is one thing that has always bothered me with the battling 101 sign ups. This is the fact that often there is a huge influx of people with their first or second post in the sign up threads, who we later never see again. Personally, I find this annoying because when people whom are committed to the community sign up, they often miss out from the overwhelming amount of new posters signing up for battling 101, then never posting on Smogon again.

I'm not trying to say we shouldn't allow new members to sign up, as this is what the program is most prominently directed at. However, I think the establishment of a minimum post count could benefit the process as a whole. This could help cut down the size of the incoming queue for the tutors to have to work through, as well as making it less difficult for members who are committed to the site to sign up. I've been here since 2007 and was tutored a while ago, as well as signing up this past time. It's just bothersome to see myself get rejected from the tutoring because there weren't anymore tutors, and that the majority of the tutors were tutoring members that joined that day/week, and then those tutees never return.

Just a suggestion. I understand why this might not be a consideration, because you might not want to put a limit on helping people, but it's and idea I had. Do with it what you will.

Finally, thanks for the updates. It's great to see so much work going into this already big project. Keep it up guys!

 

[twash]

I'm not trying to sound like an elitist asshole hear, but there is one thing that has always bothered me with the battling 101 sign ups. This is the fact that often there is a huge influx of people with their first or second post in the sign up threads, who we later never see again. Personally, I find this annoying because when people whom are committed to the community sign up, they often miss out from the overwhelming amount of new posters signing up for battling 101, then never posting on Smogon again.

I'm not trying to say we shouldn't allow new members to sign up, as this is what the program is most prominently directed at. However, I think the establishment of a minimum post count could benefit the process as a whole. This could help cut down the size of the incoming queue for the tutors to have to work through, as well as making it less difficult for members who are committed to the site to sign up. I've been here since 2007 and was tutored a while ago, as well as signing up this past time. It's just bothersome to see myself get rejected from the tutoring because there weren't anymore tutors, and that the majority of the tutors were tutoring members that joined that day/week, and then those tutees never return.

Just a suggestion. I understand why this might not be a consideration, because you might not want to put a limit on helping people, but it's and idea I had. Do with it what you will.

Finally, thanks for the updates. It's great to see so much work going into this already big project. Keep it up guys!

Arguably, part of the tutoring program is integrating the tutees into Smogon. From my experience at least, my tutees tend to want to do something else around Smogon - be it rating teams, writing articles, or aiming to become a tutor themselves over time. If successful in integrating the tutee into Smogon (on top of standard tutoring), they will tend to hang around more. I'm not saying this is always the case, but I think we shouldn't limit the newer members when the program is often most beneficial to them. I don't really like post count as an indicator either, because people shouldn't be forced to post. Many of the newer members lurk at Smogon, and Battling 101 tends to be a good gateway into the community.

For people who go inactive during the round, it won't matter because the tutor can just move onto the next willing tutee.

 

[Sharpedo1114]

I think Personnally that people who where accepted on recent apprentice programs shouldn't be allowed to do it so they should lose some of theyre priority instead of being able to do every single program

 

[Objection]

For people who go inactive during the round, it won't matter because the tutor can just move onto the next willing tutee.

Has this actually happened?

I think Personnally that people who where accepted on recent apprentice programs shouldn't be allowed to do it so they should lose some of theyre priority instead of being able to do every single program

What about if they asked to be tutored in OU one round and want to be tutored in Ubers the next round?

 

[Pink]

I agree with your sentiments Twash. Thinking about it, could there be maybe a stricter application process implemented? Typically, people post short applications, because they don't want to miss the deadline with people flooding the forum. Since there's going to be a queue, couldn't it be possible to ask people to write more about why they want to join, and what they hope to gain from getting tutored? This kind of gives people an incentive to be more thoughtful and get involved more. Just a thought.

 

[Zach]

Has this actually happened?

Yes; I was being tutored by KG and I got in baaad trouble with my parents... didnt see my computer for a long time.

 

[tripe]

I wonder if this revamp will have anything to do with tutor applications. I submitted an application about 24 hours before the applications closed again. I haven't gotten a reply on my application, and I've been told that the reason why I haven't got at least a response is, because of the revamping of tutoring. I feel that the revamping is necessary though to allow more students in each round per se.