OU ADV OU Metagame Discussion

[Alpha Atom™]

I like Glalie a lot and I personally was experimenting with it in my builder this past mushi league season, but I don't believe I ever got the chance to actually bring it. I came up with this lead-tailored set that I believe gives you good opening sequences against some very common leads, but I've been struggling to actually fit it on any teams, which I think may just be a symptom of Glalie being... not that great.


Glalie @ Leftovers
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 HP / 124 Def / 12 SpA / 92 SpD / 28 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spikes
- Ice Beam
- Explosion
- Earthquake / ???

VS
One of the opening sequences I tailored this towards was Zapdos. At the time I was prepping to face sheik who had decently high zapdos lead usage, and I found that glalie could be EV'd to always live two Timid Zapdos thunderbolts while always KOing with two ice beams.

252 SpA 30 IVs Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 92 SpD Glalie: 163-192 (44.7 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
12- SpA Glalie Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 173-204 (53.7 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

The opening sequence I anticipated was a turn 1 tbolt vs ice beam, in which the Zapdos user is forced to swap out or sac their zap, giving the glalie a turn to spike or explode against another enemy.

vs
This is the other opening sequence I had envisioned, EVing Glalie to always survive an Adamant Tyranitar's Rock Slide and be able to set up a spike, living sand damage as well to lead to an explosion turn or another spike if deemed necessary. 223 Speed also helps speed creep 252 neutral tar and mons that aim to speed creep it (like many base 70s). The unfortunate side of this set is that it always loses against bandtar, but considering glalie typically loses against Tyranitar anyway, I don't think that's much of a detriment. Outside of these two lead matchups, I think this set performs about as well as any other Glalie, maybe a bit weaker than hard physical sets like the one in the quoted post above or other sets that aim to use ice beam as a main attack.

252+ Atk 30 IVs Tyranitar Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 124 Def Glalie: 287-338 (78.8 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery

Before sharing the teams I built around glalie, I'd like to say that I'm still a novice builder and these should be treated moreso as ideas rather than fleshed-out ready-to-play teams.


https://pokepast.es/727fa7e7ee1ba749
On to the teams that I attempted to build around Glalie, first is this glalie physoff team. This team capitalizes on the fact that Skarmory is a primary switch-in to a lead glalie, and also benefits from a very unique opening line in the Glalie exploding on a Skarmory (or its protect), leaving it open to a magneton trap. Apart from this opening sequence, this is a standard physically offensive team, packed with members such as agiligross and curselax that really benefit from skarmory going down.


https://pokepast.es/be6f5ccb3630309f
I think this takes the shape of a more traditional HO team that glalie may be found on, with Charizard and Jolteon acting as offensive pressure towards Skarmory. Rather than an aggressive explosion opening line, this moreso benefits from the fact that the Glalie set is tailored to beat lead Zapdos, whose offensive and defensive power can check Charizard and Metagross. I had more success testing this over the prior team, but that may have to do with mixoff's ridiculous mu against the general ladder.

Glalie is definitely a mon that I think is worth experimenting with, as I think it has a lot of potential to fit on teams that don't necessarily represent its expected HO playstyle. As for best partners, I think Agiligross and offensive Swampert are incredible, as they can take advantage of chipped Skarmory and other mons that come in to soak up explosions like opposing Swamperts. Finally, one last mon that I've been trying to build around with Glalie is Pursuittar, as I think it can lead to some interesting guaranteed Gengar traps because of Glalie's telegraphed gameplan. The team structure I had in my head was Glalie / Pursuittar / Moltres / Starmie, but I think it needs some work to get off the ground.

You really cooked with the EV Spread. I will be trying to make a team around this. Thanks you the great build!

 

[YubelVT]

I've joined the dark side of the metagame. By that I mean I've started using SubPass Lead Zapdos on a dugtrio team and god it's so fucking fun. I've won games on the spot by passing a sub to offensive starmie, I've won long games by just drypassing with zapdos like I usually do, and just having a zapdos behind a sub is oftentimes good enough to put immense pressure (no pun intended) on the opponent. This is the team I built and it's so fun: https://pokepast.es/a0eec154a41642e9

 

[YubelVT]

Not to double post but I swear to god this meta would be infinitely improved if you banned speed passing. There's a decent chance you could just remove most of the restrictions on BP if you banned speed passing, plus it would remove the ninjask cheese teams mid ladder loves and force them to actually play the game. Yeah it would mean that the agilipass team where I pass agility and a sub to rhydon wouldn't work anymore but that's a price I'm willing to pay

Edit: I made this post in a wave of salt after losing entirely to protect RNG against a speedpass team but I stand by most of it. Like RIP to the guy running thief skarmory and quick claw dusclops on his speedpass team (you are the only creative speedpasser I've ever met) but this shit gotta go fam.

 

[mr.pinklives]

Im not ranked high enough to really say if speed passing is competitive or cheesy or wtv
but it is super annoying to play against, especially ninjask
i think just banning ninjask would make speedpassing more tolerable tbh
I kinda agree that bp would have less restrictions without speed pass, but passing a bunch of other stat boosts would still be so annoying

 

[Mintyfresh756]

I think that Speedpass as a whole should be banned, ideally without the removal of any other BP restrictions. (AKA multi boost passing)

All three of the common speedpassers are degenerate in their own ways.

Ninjask is the worst offender, and teams built around it are the most annoying to play around. Mag makes it so skarm is not a reliable answer, and the other roarers are generally pretty easy to take care of if they only have one, which most teams do. And once the roarer is dead a single misspredict can instantly lose you the game because of how disgustingly powerful marowak is with Sd up. Also the fact that Ninjask abusers figured out that they can also cheese bulky setup mons and roarers with sand attack should’ve immediately gotten it banned but whatever. That said fishing for paras with Ninjask is a very similar strat that can instantly win the game if they get a sub on a para turn that allows marowak to come in safely. Extremely niche Sidenote but I hate that the high score for the 3 BL mon ladder achievement will always be a Ninjask Marowak team because they are already 2 mons that fit the criteria that are actually very good.

Maybe a controversial take but I think Smeargle is almost as degenerate as Ninjask and personally I barely put them above Ninjask abusers as people. Sleep adds no value to the competitive meta except it is pretty good against slow teams which are generally very powerful at a high level, but realistically sleep should get gen 9’d which would make smeargle awful but it is way too easy for it to generate value as of now tbh. The real issue with smeargle is that it can literally run anything so you may not know it is Speedpass until it is too late. Also extremely degenerate is the belly drum pass set, but that is beside the point.

Zap is the most minor offender but it’s still lame for two reasons. First is that the first agility is probably free since people don’t usually run that set, and the second is that it smacks skarm and swampert if you run hp grass. It can even run roar to get rid of other roar attempts.

Realistically who really thinks Speedpass abusers actually know the game at all, I know when I first started playing gen 3 the first team I made was a Ninjask marowak team because I knew that I didn’t have the knowledge to beat anyone even halfway decent and yet I very quickly hit top 100. It’s basically a flowchart to pilot those teams. If people want to play setup sweeper matchup fishing every game gen 9 is currently the modern gen so go try that. I genuinely believe nothing of value would be lost if Speedpass was banned.

That said imo we probably should keep multi boost passing banned cause if not it is an ok chance it could get statpassing overall banned.

Notably I generally hover rank 10 when I’m playing normal teams so it’s not like I’m some salty low ladder player who doesn’t know the meta at all. I don’t even see these teams often but everytime I do I just wanna close the game out of boredom even though I usually beat them

 

[YubelVT]

I think that Speedpass as a whole should be banned, ideally without the removal of any other BP restrictions. (AKA multi boost passing)

All three of the common speedpassers are degenerate in their own ways.

Ninjask is the worst offender, and teams built around it are the most annoying to play around. Mag makes it so skarm is not a reliable answer, and the other roarers are generally pretty easy to take care of if they only have one, which most teams do. And once the roarer is dead a single misspredict can instantly lose you the game because of how disgustingly powerful marowak is with Sd up. Also the fact that Ninjask abusers figured out that they can also cheese bulky setup mons and roarers with sand attack should’ve immediately gotten it banned but whatever. That said fishing for paras with Ninjask is a very similar strat that can instantly win the game if they get a sub on a para turn that allows marowak to come in safely. Extremely niche Sidenote but I hate that the high score for the 3 BL mon ladder achievement will always be a Ninjask Marowak team because they are already 2 mons that fit the criteria that are actually very good.

Maybe a controversial take but I think Smeargle is almost as degenerate as Ninjask and personally I barely put them above Ninjask abusers as people. Sleep adds no value to the competitive meta except it is pretty good against slow teams which are generally very powerful at a high level, but realistically sleep should get gen 9’d which would make smeargle awful but it is way too easy for it to generate value as of now tbh. The real issue with smeargle is that it can literally run anything so you may not know it is Speedpass until it is too late. Also extremely degenerate is the belly drum pass set, but that is beside the point.

Zap is the most minor offender but it’s still lame for two reasons. First is that the first agility is probably free since people don’t usually run that set, and the second is that it smacks skarm and swampert if you run hp grass. It can even run roar to get rid of other roar attempts.

Realistically who really thinks Speedpass abusers actually know the game at all, I know when I first started playing gen 3 the first team I made was a Ninjask marowak team because I knew that I didn’t have the knowledge to beat anyone even halfway decent and yet I very quickly hit top 100. It’s basically a flowchart to pilot those teams. If people want to play setup sweeper matchup fishing every game gen 9 is currently the modern gen so go try that. I genuinely believe nothing of value would be lost if Speedpass was banned.

That said imo we probably should keep multi boost passing banned cause if not it is an ok chance it could get statpassing overall banned.

Notably I generally hover rank 10 when I’m playing normal teams so it’s not like I’m some salty low ladder player who doesn’t know the meta at all. I don’t even see these teams often but everytime I do I just wanna close the game out of boredom even though I usually beat them

Ninjask also learns toxic so you can't even do the phazing with your normal phazers (minus skarmory which those teams will handle as mentioned in your post) without getting something crippled outside of the niche perish song celebi. I thing agilipass zap is maybe the only speedpasser I'm ok with existing but also getting rid of it would just be consistent so I'm content with him dying. Onto sleep, I think it's honestly pretty healthy in this generation (then again I'm like 1600 flat at best). The setters with consistent sleep moves are relatively slow and it's not completely unrealistic that you burn enough sleep turns over the course of the game anyway. I wouldn't be too beat up about it if sleep left but I don't think it's necessarily an issue either.

 

[Mintyfresh756]

Ninjask also learns toxic so you can't even do the phazing with your normal phazers (minus skarmory which those teams will handle as mentioned in your post) without getting something crippled outside of the niche perish song celebi. I thing agilipass zap is maybe the only speedpasser I'm ok with existing but also getting rid of it would just be consistent so I'm content with him dying. Onto sleep, I think it's honestly pretty healthy in this generation (then again I'm like 1600 flat at best). The setters with consistent sleep moves are relatively slow and it's not completely unrealistic that you burn enough sleep turns over the course of the game anyway. I wouldn't be too beat up about it if sleep left but I don't think it's necessarily an issue either.

Honestly I agree it isn’t really that powerful, I just think the rng heavy nature of sleep turns makes it not really worth keeping. If it remains unbanned it’s nbd but i don’t think many people think the game is better with sleep in it. I’m open to debate on that though.

 

[Kaleb1233]

I think that Speedpass as a whole should be banned, ideally without the removal of any other BP restrictions. (AKA multi boost passing)

All three of the common speedpassers are degenerate in their own ways.

Ninjask is the worst offender, and teams built around it are the most annoying to play around. Mag makes it so skarm is not a reliable answer, and the other roarers are generally pretty easy to take care of if they only have one, which most teams do. And once the roarer is dead a single misspredict can instantly lose you the game because of how disgustingly powerful marowak is with Sd up. Also the fact that Ninjask abusers figured out that they can also cheese bulky setup mons and roarers with sand attack should’ve immediately gotten it banned but whatever. That said fishing for paras with Ninjask is a very similar strat that can instantly win the game if they get a sub on a para turn that allows marowak to come in safely. Extremely niche Sidenote but I hate that the high score for the 3 BL mon ladder achievement will always be a Ninjask Marowak team because they are already 2 mons that fit the criteria that are actually very good.

Maybe a controversial take but I think Smeargle is almost as degenerate as Ninjask and personally I barely put them above Ninjask abusers as people. Sleep adds no value to the competitive meta except it is pretty good against slow teams which are generally very powerful at a high level, but realistically sleep should get gen 9’d which would make smeargle awful but it is way too easy for it to generate value as of now tbh. The real issue with smeargle is that it can literally run anything so you may not know it is Speedpass until it is too late. Also extremely degenerate is the belly drum pass set, but that is beside the point.

Zap is the most minor offender but it’s still lame for two reasons. First is that the first agility is probably free since people don’t usually run that set, and the second is that it smacks skarm and swampert if you run hp grass. It can even run roar to get rid of other roar attempts.

Realistically who really thinks Speedpass abusers actually know the game at all, I know when I first started playing gen 3 the first team I made was a Ninjask marowak team because I knew that I didn’t have the knowledge to beat anyone even halfway decent and yet I very quickly hit top 100. It’s basically a flowchart to pilot those teams. If people want to play setup sweeper matchup fishing every game gen 9 is currently the modern gen so go try that. I genuinely believe nothing of value would be lost if Speedpass was banned. Also Mintyfresh's point about the BL ladder achievement is so true; there are so many players 1600+ running Ninjask Marowak teams, it really defeats the point of that challenge, lol.

That said imo we probably should keep multi boost passing banned cause if not it is an ok chance it could get statpassing overall banned.

Notably I generally hover rank 10 when I’m playing normal teams so it’s not like I’m some salty low ladder player who doesn’t know the meta at all. I don’t even see these teams often but everytime I do I just wanna close the game out of boredom even though I usually beat them

Gonna piggyback on this post to say that I completely agree. I'm a new competitive pokemon player, only been playing ADV for like 5 months, but I have played a lot. Obviously the format is old and a lot has been said on Ninjask, but I want to give my perspective as a new player.

I think ninjask based teams kind of goes against what makes playing ADV OU feel so good. ADV OU is incredibly diverse in the amount of team styles you can play, and generally speaking, well-crafted teams in each style can do fine against pretty much every matchup. I've played pretty much every kind of team at this point, certainly all the team archetypes on Vapicuno's post, and generally speaking I feel like every matchup is playable. Of course, Ninjask teams feel the opposite to me - they are incredibly fishy. If I am playing a sandless team, or a phaseless team, or god forbid both, it just feels like gameover. Maybe this isn't necessarily problematic in itself, anyone can make a team to 100% counter any archetype, but I feel like Ninjask is too polarized across the entire board. I don't think you should have to have Tyranitar + a phaser besides Skarm to not get wrecked by Ninjask teams.

Recently I played a few games against a very good player with a Ninjask + taunt sand attack Umbreon baton team and it really changed my mind on how toxic this archetype can get. Because gen 3 has no team preview, playing a standard team into Ninjask can sometimes feel like guesswork. There are so many good receivers and adding a really tanking mon like Umbreon with baton pass and an accuracy reducing move into the mix sucks to play against. There is so much out of your control when playing against it - you don't know what kind of sweeper they might pass to, random RNG from sand attack or para's, etc.

On the topic of sand attack, the fact that accuracy changing movies still are around is genuinely surprising to me. I know yall banned cacturne for being dumb with accuracy and I think most if not all other ou gens ban accuracy reducing movies and abilities? Maybe instead of a Ninjask ban, banning all accuracy reducing stuff is a more obvious first step.

I'm trying to stay away from saying anything on whether or not these strategies are good, but I will end by saying that Ninjask teams are honestly the only thing I strongly dislike about the format (except like, rock slide flinch chance and 2x crit damage, lol). I do hope something gives, because I bet other new players getting into gen 3 don't like getting randomly crushed by ninjask cheese either.

 

[YubelVT]

Gonna piggyback on this post to say that I completely agree. I'm a new competitive pokemon player, only been playing ADV for like 5 months, but I have played a lot. Obviously the format is old and a lot has been said on Ninjask, but I want to give my perspective as a new player.

I think ninjask based teams kind of goes against what makes playing ADV OU feel so good. ADV OU is incredibly diverse in the amount of team styles you can play, and generally speaking, well-crafted teams in each style can do fine against pretty much every matchup. I've played pretty much every kind of team at this point, certainly all the team archetypes on Vapicuno's post, and generally speaking I feel like every matchup is playable. Of course, Ninjask teams feel the opposite to me - they are incredibly fishy. If I am playing a sandless team, or a phaseless team, or god forbid both, it just feels like gameover. Maybe this isn't necessarily problematic in itself, anyone can make a team to 100% counter any archetype, but I feel like Ninjask is too polarized across the entire board. I don't think you should have to have Tyranitar + a phaser besides Skarm to not get wrecked by Ninjask teams.

Recently I played a few games against a very good player with a Ninjask + taunt sand attack Umbreon baton team and it really changed my mind on how toxic this archetype can get. Because gen 3 has no team preview, playing a standard team into Ninjask can sometimes feel like guesswork. There are so many good receivers and adding a really tanking mon like Umbreon with baton pass and an accuracy reducing move into the mix sucks to play against. There is so much out of your control when playing against it - you don't know what kind of sweeper they might pass to, random RNG from sand attack or para's, etc.

On the topic of sand attack, the fact that accuracy changing movies still are around is genuinely surprising to me. I know yall banned cacturne for being dumb with accuracy and I think most if not all other ou gens ban accuracy reducing movies and abilities? Maybe instead of a Ninjask ban, banning all accuracy reducing stuff is a more obvious first step.

I'm trying to stay away from saying anything on whether or not these strategies are good, but I will end by saying that Ninjask teams are honestly the only thing I strongly dislike about the format (except like, rock slide flinch chance and 2x crit damage, lol). I do hope something gives, because I bet other new players getting into gen 3 don't like getting randomly crushed by ninjask cheese either.

The thing with accuracy moves/abilities is that they're only remotely good when enabling something toxic like sand stall or baton pass. Like there's not really a reason to ban the moves because they all suck ass 99% of the time and are only good when enabling something that shouldn't be legal anyway (or when they're sand veil in the sand generation). Sand attack and their ilk aren't banned in any other generations because they suck ass, though snow cloak and sand veil are because those are stupid and don't lose you momentum. My only recommendation for teambuilding against speedpass teams is to lead with either subpass or roar zapdos. Both of these are good sets in general with roar specifically also snubbing other subpass lead electrics and subpass being able to enable something like starmie to do a ton of damage while also pseudo scouting the intentions of lead metagross and tyranitar (though for the latter you should just pass out to your rock resist and then go from there, and in the case of running swampert I highly recommend switching immediately after because I've been punished by HP Grass too many times and have not mentally recovered).

 

[Kaleb1233]

The thing with accuracy moves/abilities is that they're only remotely good when enabling something toxic like sand stall or baton pass. Like there's not really a reason to ban the moves because they all suck ass 99% of the time and are only good when enabling something that shouldn't be legal anyway (or when they're sand veil in the sand generation). Sand attack and their ilk aren't banned in any other generations because they suck ass, though snow cloak and sand veil are because those are stupid and don't lose you momentum. My only recommendation for teambuilding against speedpass teams is to lead with either subpass or roar zapdos. Both of these are good sets in general with roar specifically also snubbing other subpass lead electrics and subpass being able to enable something like starmie to do a ton of damage while also pseudo scouting the intentions of lead metagross and tyranitar (though for the latter you should just pass out to your rock resist and then go from there, and in the case of running swampert I highly recommend switching immediately after because I've been punished by HP Grass too many times and have not mentally recovered).

Yeah for sure. I don't use zap on my teams too much even though I feel like lead Zap with sub pass is the most consistent lead I see. Zapdos is the most jack of all trades generalist in the format IMO, and I think about playing against it in the teambuilder a lot, but I never want to use it myself. I always feel like there is something more fun and specific lol.

I hope my post isn't coming off too salty, because I honestly don't mind Ninjask that much. I think gen 3 would be better off without it but it is not a big deal. I have a positive win ratio against the archetype anyway, (which is kind of my point, I beat it >60% of the time but I find it annoying everytime). But small annoying. Nothing compared to getting reversed swept by tera flying kinggambit lmao.

 

[YubelVT]

Yeah for sure. I don't use zap on my teams too much even though I feel like lead Zap with sub pass is the most consistent lead I see. Zapdos is the most jack of all trades generalist in the format IMO, and I think about playing against it in the teambuilder a lot, but I never want to use it myself. I always feel like there is something more fun and specific lol.

I hope my post isn't coming off too salty, because I honestly don't mind Ninjask that much. I think gen 3 would be better off without it but it is not a big deal. I have a positive win ratio against the archetype anyway, (which is kind of my point, I beat it >60% of the time but I find it annoying everytime). But small annoying. Nothing compared to getting reversed swept by tera flying kinggambit lmao.

Ur so right tho (although ninjask sweeping itself I think is funny it's just speedpassing that needs to go). And you should use zapdos more, he's really really fucking good. It's hard to fit everything into one set, my go to is generally Thunderbolt + BP + HP Grass + Roar (or sub on the current team I'm running) but I do think that thunder wave is an incredibly hard move to switch into, even paralyzing a blissey is good because that's a good chance to just switch in like a metagross or something for free and immediately force it out again

 

[Sharingan]

Gonna piggyback on this post to say that I completely agree. I'm a new competitive pokemon player, only been playing ADV for like 5 months, but I have played a lot. Obviously the format is old and a lot has been said on Ninjask, but I want to give my perspective as a new player.

I think ninjask based teams kind of goes against what makes playing ADV OU feel so good. ADV OU is incredibly diverse in the amount of team styles you can play, and generally speaking, well-crafted teams in each style can do fine against pretty much every matchup. I've played pretty much every kind of team at this point, certainly all the team archetypes on Vapicuno's post, and generally speaking I feel like every matchup is playable. Of course, Ninjask teams feel the opposite to me - they are incredibly fishy. If I am playing a sandless team, or a phaseless team, or god forbid both, it just feels like gameover. Maybe this isn't necessarily problematic in itself, anyone can make a team to 100% counter any archetype, but I feel like Ninjask is too polarized across the entire board. I don't think you should have to have Tyranitar + a phaser besides Skarm to not get wrecked by Ninjask teams.

Recently I played a few games against a very good player with a Ninjask + taunt sand attack Umbreon baton team and it really changed my mind on how toxic this archetype can get. Because gen 3 has no team preview, playing a standard team into Ninjask can sometimes feel like guesswork. There are so many good receivers and adding a really tanking mon like Umbreon with baton pass and an accuracy reducing move into the mix sucks to play against. There is so much out of your control when playing against it - you don't know what kind of sweeper they might pass to, random RNG from sand attack or para's, etc.

On the topic of sand attack, the fact that accuracy changing movies still are around is genuinely surprising to me. I know yall banned cacturne for being dumb with accuracy and I think most if not all other ou gens ban accuracy reducing movies and abilities? Maybe instead of a Ninjask ban, banning all accuracy reducing stuff is a more obvious first step.

I'm trying to stay away from saying anything on whether or not these strategies are good, but I will end by saying that Ninjask teams are honestly the only thing I strongly dislike about the format (except like, rock slide flinch chance and 2x crit damage, lol). I do hope something gives, because I bet other new players getting into gen 3 don't like getting randomly crushed by ninjask cheese either.

Ninjask banned for BPass archetype of teams is ok, but at least ban or limit Baton Pass teams, not Ninjask for every team. In 2024 i cannot select Ninjask as a Pokémon for my team, which is not a Baton Pass team and this is ridicolous.

I feel like Ninjask is too polarized across the entire board. I don't think you should have to have Tyranitar + a phaser besides Skarm to not get wrecked by Ninjask teams.

Correct. But we still need Magneton + Rapid Spinner; or 6 Mons with Fire Blast/Thunderbolt to hit Sdef Skarmory since is literally the most broken shit ever made since NetBattle Era. Sdef Skarmory is the most centralizing Pokémon in ADV, together with TTar, he destroys a lot of creative building in ADV but nobody complains about him, because maybe nobody do care, it is ok to keep using Spikes + Gengar; Sdef Skarmory + TTar teams forever. Is this fun or can we just play ADV with the full diversity he has to offer?

 

[YubelVT]

Ninjask banned for BPass archetype of teams is ok, but at least ban or limit Baton Pass teams, not Ninjask for every team. In 2024 i cannot select Ninjask as a Pokémon for my team, which is not a Baton Pass team and this is ridicolous.



Correct. But we still need Magneton + Rapid Spinner; or 6 Mons with Fire Blast/Thunderbolt to hit Sdef Skarmory since is literally the most broken shit ever made since NetBattle Era. Sdef Skarmory is the most centralizing Pokémon in ADV, together with TTar, he destroys a lot of creative building in ADV but nobody complains about him, because maybe nobody do care, it is ok to keep using Spikes + Gengar; Sdef Skarmory + TTar teams forever. Is this fun or can we just play ADV with the full diversity he has to offer?

To address your points in an arbitrary order.

1. SpDef Skarmory is nowhere near as centralizing as you're pretending it is, your teams are all just bad probably. Small list of things that SpDef skarmory cannot handle effectively: Choice Band Metagross, Sub Endeavor Swampert, offensive suicune behind a substitute (not much can but offensive suicune doesn't run super effective hits for skarmory), fucking rhydon, choice band tyranitar. Small aside, did you know that the only set with an analysis in all of gen 3 that doesn't fold to Choice Band Metagross explosion is the ubers defensive set?
2. What exactly does ninjask... do outside of baton pass teams? Like you can bring up the choice band set listed on the analysis page but given the fact that the analysis doesn't have credits for who wrote it, as well as mentioning weezing in the checks and counters section, I'm making a reasonable assumption that it's quite old and really doesn't reflect the modern metagame much at all. Ninjask isn't Sneasler in gen 9 OU, it's not getting banned because of the absolute dominance of 1 set despite the other sets being very good in their own right. Ninjask is getting banned because the one thing it does is very uncompetitive.
3. The tier is nowhere near as overcentralized as you claim. Like yeah Tyranitar is very good and centralizing in its own right, but it's not gen 2 OU snorlax. It's not on 100% of teams and, while you absolutely should account for it, pokemon dedicated specifically to checking it (hitmontop for example) are not good picks because checking only Tyranitar is not a role you need. ADV is an incredibly diverse tier as you say, and that diversity shows regularly (even if TSS was a mistake) despite what you're claiming. I'm not the greatest player ever, nor do I claim to be, but ADV OU isn't just this complete wasteland of spikes teams + skarmory vs magneton spin teams. It's not even that uncommon for neither player to have a tyranitar nor any form of spikes. That's almost unique in a tier now and it's honestly very nice

 

[Sharingan]

1. SpDef Skarmory is nowhere near as centralizing as you're pretending it is, your teams are all just bad probably. Small list of things that SpDef skarmory cannot handle effectively: Choice Band Metagross, Sub Endeavor Swampert, offensive suicune behind a substitute (not much can but offensive suicune doesn't run super effective hits for skarmory), fucking rhydon, choice band tyranitar. Small aside, did you know that the only set with an analysis in all of gen 3 that doesn't fold to Choice Band Metagross explosion is the ubers defensive set?

Sdef Skarmory counters most of BL Poké and a huge list of OUs, alone. Snorlax Mixlax got huge nerf for Sdef Skarmory, since his Fire Blast without STAB are not as much as strong as were in the past, same for Flygon; Cloyster does no damage on him, and lose from Toxic; all Bulky Waters must run Evs in Satk in order to damage him, in fact, your listed examples, all has Offensive SAtk set, which is a trade off since they are such good Pokémons for defensive roles.

Sub Salac Pert: you should trade a good counter for half of the physical attackers of the Meta, for an Offensive Set, to damage Skarmory. Suicune, same scenario, you must invest in Offensive set or you get Spiked and you must dedicate a Spinner slot. You're talking of CB Metagross, which is a Top OU Pokémon, which is now stronger then in the past, because Bulky Waters team with no Spinners must have SAtk and no Def to counter the most Broken shit ever made, Cb Gross never got Countered by Def Skarmory since he could not win 1vs1 but only set 3 layer and shuffle, risking Atk Boost.

Not even Spinners are so reliable to remove Spikes vs him, unless you dedicate, only for him, a Rapid Spinner slot with a dedicate move: Refresh Claydol, or pray he doesn't have Toxic + Protect if you choose Starmie. Forretress is a bad Rapid Spinner, and you must have Pursuitar, if you want to Spin with him, you must dedicate 2 slots because of this. Donphan is trash Poké. Cloyster get's kekked on and does no damage, Toxic Stalled to death.

If you want to build and play with variety, and you don't want to lose from Sdef Skarmory, outside Magneton + Refresh Claydol/Starmie you MUST have Super Effective moves on him from Satk Evs, or Maximize Satk with non SuperEffective moves, as Bulky Waters do nowdays. Exactly what i said in the post before, how is nowhere near as centralizing?

2. What exactly does ninjask... do outside of baton pass teams? Like you can bring up the choice band set listed on the analysis page but given the fact that the analysis doesn't have credits for who wrote it, as well as mentioning weezing in the checks and counters section, I'm making a reasonable assumption that it's quite old and really doesn't reflect the modern metagame much at all. Ninjask isn't Sneasler in gen 9 OU, it's not getting banned because of the absolute dominance of 1 set despite the other sets being very good in their own right. Ninjask is getting banned because the one thing it does is very uncompetitive.

Ninjask is an extremely strong Dugtrio Punisher, which is a very strong oppressive treath for all offensive Teams, and a centralizing treath that prevents the Sweep for a lots of Offensive Pokémon: Raikou, Heracross, all fire types with no Ground Immunity; Poison/Grass types, Venusaur, Nidoking, Breloom, Psychyc types like Celebi, Exeggutor, Jynx, Alakazam, Espeon, Steel types: Jirachi.

Dugtrio is a sure Revengkill for all these offensive Pokémons and it's absolutely ridicolous that, in 2024, a Player cannot use Ninjask because of some Cheap Baton Pass teams, but is forced to build teams, selecting all Pokémons and dedicate moveslots for Sdef Skarmory and forced to build Offensive teams, not Revengkilled by Dugtrio ( which i'm not saying is wrong, i'm saying is ridicolous that i could not use Ninjask, or Exploud, in a non Baton Pass archetype); and this is such an incoherence.

The tier is nowhere near as overcentralized as you claim. Like yeah Tyranitar is very good and centralizing in its own right, but it's not gen 2 OU snorlax. It's not on 100% of teams and, while you absolutely should account for it, pokemon dedicated specifically to checking it (hitmontop for example) are not good picks because checking only Tyranitar is not a role you need. ADV is an incredibly diverse tier as you say, and that diversity shows regularly (even if TSS was a mistake) despite what you're claiming. I'm not the greatest player ever, nor do I claim to be, but ADV OU isn't just this complete wasteland of spikes teams + skarmory vs magneton spin teams. It's not even that uncommon for neither player to have a tyranitar nor any form of spikes. That's almost unique in a tier now and it's honestly very nice

Tyranitar is centralizing just for his traits, which is a strong centralizing trait that removes item to every non Steel, Ground, Rock type, but everyone is used to build and consider it from the beginning, and nobody complains, which is ok. But it's the same situation you all are whining because you must dedicate Roar to do not be Phazed in a Baton Pass, it is the same for Offensive Players that builds teams with Porygon2 just for Dugtrio, for Sdef Skarmory, and everyone for TTar.

Adv teams that historycally won the most, had this pokèmon: Skarmory, Blissey, Celebi, Sdef Skarmory, TTar, Gengar ( Bulky gar, another absolutely broken and oppressive Poké) Swampert + Spinner; or random: CBGross/Aerodactyl/DDmence Spam, with a bait Exploder for Bulky Waters together with MagneDug.

These are TSS or Choice Band Spam, Adv is basically this nowdays, but has a lots of interesting other stuff that could work, but it does not work because of some too centralizing treaths, that everyone does even consider to be centralizing, and instead bans Exploud ( Soundproof user) and Ninjask because of Baton Pass.

 

[YubelVT]

Sdef Skarmory counters most of BL Poké and a huge list of OUs, alone. Snorlax Mixlax got huge nerf for Sdef Skarmory, since his Fire Blast without STAB are not as much as strong as were in the past, same for Flygon; Cloyster does no damage on him, and lose from Toxic; all Bulky Waters must run Evs in Satk in order to damage him, in fact, your listed examples, all has Offensive SAtk set, which is a trade off since they are such good Pokémons for defensive roles.

Sub Salac Pert: you should trade a good counter for half of the physical attackers of the Meta, for an Offensive Set, to damage Skarmory. Suicune, same scenario, you must invest in Offensive set or you get Spiked and you must dedicate a Spinner slot. You're talking of CB Metagross, which is a Top OU Pokémon, which is now stronger then in the past, because Bulky Waters team with no Spinners must have SAtk and no Def to counter the most Broken shit ever made, Cb Gross never got Countered by Def Skarmory since he could not win 1vs1 but only set 3 layer and shuffle, risking Atk Boost.

Not even Spinners are so reliable to remove Spikes vs him, unless you dedicate, only for him, a Rapid Spinner slot with a dedicate move: Refresh Claydol, or pray he doesn't have Toxic + Protect if you choose Starmie. Forretress is a bad Rapid Spinner, and you must have Pursuitar, if you want to Spin with him, you must dedicate 2 slots because of this. Donphan is trash Poké. Cloyster get's kekked on and does no damage, Toxic Stalled to death.

If you want to build and play with variety, and you don't want to lose from Sdef Skarmory, outside Magneton + Refresh Claydol/Starmie you MUST have Super Effective moves on him from Satk Evs, or Maximize Satk with non SuperEffective moves, as Bulky Waters do nowdays. Exactly what i said in the post before, how is nowhere near as centralizing?



Ninjask is an extremely strong Dugtrio Punisher, which is a very strong oppressive treath for all offensive Teams, and a centralizing treath that prevents the Sweep for a lots of Offensive Pokémon: Raikou, Heracross, all fire types with no Ground Immunity; Poison/Grass types, Venusaur, Nidoking, Breloom, Psychyc types like Celebi, Exeggutor, Jynx, Alakazam, Espeon, Steel types: Jirachi.

Dugtrio is a sure Revengkill for all these offensive Pokémons and it's absolutely ridicolous that, in 2024, a Player cannot use Ninjask because of some Cheap Baton Pass teams, but is forced to build teams, selecting all Pokémons and dedicate moveslots for Sdef Skarmory and forced to build Offensive teams, not Revengkilled by Dugtrio ( which i'm not saying is wrong, i'm saying is ridicolous that i could not use Ninjask, or Exploud, in a non Baton Pass archetype); and this is such an incoherence.




Tyranitar is centralizing just for his traits, which is a strong centralizing trait that removes item to every non Steel, Ground, Rock type, but everyone is used to build and consider it from the beginning, and nobody complains, which is ok. But it's the same situation you all are whining because you must dedicate Roar to do not be Phazed in a Baton Pass, it is the same for Offensive Players that builds teams with Porygon2 just for Dugtrio, for Sdef Skarmory, and everyone for TTar.

Adv teams that historycally won the most, had this pokèmon: Skarmory, Blissey, Celebi, Sdef Skarmory, TTar, Gengar ( Bulky gar, another absolutely broken and oppressive Poké) Swampert + Spinner; or random: CBGross/Aerodactyl/DDmence Spam, with a bait Exploder for Bulky Waters together with MagneDug.

These are TSS or Choice Band Spam, Adv is basically this nowdays, but has a lots of interesting other stuff that could work, but it does not work because of some too centralizing treaths, that everyone does even consider to be centralizing, and instead bans Exploud ( Soundproof user) and Ninjask because of Baton Pass.

Alright lets do this again.

1. Snorlax fell off because he's not actually that great in a metagame with permanent sand and forced switches. SpDef Skarmory might have contributed but it's very rare that one pokemon checking something is the reason that another falls off. I'm gonna post my current team and I want you to tell me exactly where the SpDef Skarmory weakness is: https://pokepast.es/a0eec154a41642e9

2. Ninjask punishes Dugtrio by doing what exactly? I can tell you exactly how Zapdos punishes Dugtrio, the threat of an ohko with HP Grass forces it out and guarantees either a sub or a baton pass pivot for a free switch into whatever you bring in (provided the Dug isn't locked into rock slide). Ninjask does not do anything better pokemon do better while also doing other things.

3. What the fuck are you talking about? Phazers are put on teams for multiple reasons, not just to not lose to baton pass. Small list of things roar/whirlwind are good for outside of the Speedpass matchup: spikes damage, normal setup sweepers, gaining team information, just generally being really annoying on forced switches, punishing a lead electric trying to sub.

4. Exploud does NOTHING in OU outside of speedpass/drumpass/pass chains. Same thing with Ninjask. In addition, complex bans suck shit and are avoided for a good reason. Again, ADV is incredibly diverse, you just have skill issues.

 

[gvmgvm40]

2. Ninjask punishes Dugtrio by doing what exactly? I can tell you exactly how Zapdos punishes Dugtrio, the threat of an ohko with HP Grass forces it out and guarantees either a sub or a baton pass pivot for a free switch into whatever you bring in (provided the Dug isn't locked into rock slide). Ninjask does not do anything better pokemon do better while also doing other things.

it can swords dance on the switch, and ninjask at +2 atk/+1 speed is... still not very threatening honestly, but I can occasionally see it doing some damage late-game. its stabs are 60 bp silver wind/aerial ace (lol) and if you want to run HP bug for the damage boost (notable for the OHKO chance for 248/0 ttar for example) you lose your HP rock coverage and get eaten alive by fliers.

 

[Jonbot]

Sdef Skarmory counters most of BL Poké and a huge list of OUs, alone. Snorlax Mixlax got huge nerf for Sdef Skarmory, since his Fire Blast without STAB are not as much as strong as were in the past, same for Flygon; Cloyster does no damage on him, and lose from Toxic; all Bulky Waters must run Evs in Satk in order to damage him, in fact, your listed examples, all has Offensive SAtk set, which is a trade off since they are such good Pokémons for defensive roles.

Funnily enough I looked at the uubl list and while skarmory is pretty good into most of those pokemon, they all have far more significant issues than skarmory. Blissey walls all of the special attackers and most of the physical attackers are either too slow/too frail or not strong enough to actually break standard teams (or they’re slaking which is there because of truant).

Spdef skarmory does check a fair amount of the ou ranked pokemon as well, but it can’t actually deal damage back to them because of the sets passivity. Take, for example, Aerodactyl. Spdef skarm can switch into it clicking rock slide, but it can’t really stop it from clicking rock slide again. Even if it switches into double edge or hp flying, it can’t heal that health back easily without clicking protect, which leaves it vulnerable to being forced out by a switch in that can beat it, like calm mind celebi, jirachi, charizard, mixed mence, mixed ttar, etc. The threat of magneton alone is enough to disincentivise it from staying in for too long, since it dies immediately if that happens.

Skarmory lack of instant reliable recovery is also a key point of weakness, since it can get worn down by repeated hits, like metagross’ meteor mash, Aerodactyl’s double edge, Heracross’ megahorn, etc. This leaves it even weaker in the long game to cleaners like, again Aerodactyl, dd ttar, gyarados, salac heracross, dd mence, etc.

If you want to build and play with variety, and you don't want to lose from Sdef Skarmory, outside Magneton + Refresh Claydol/Starmie

This is a bit dramatic. As mentioned above it’s not too difficult to wear skarmory down and take advantage of it in the late game. Other tactics like blowing up in front of it and threatening it with strong special attackers or substitute mons can also just force it out. A well built team with a solid plan can beat skarmory fairly easily.

Ninjask is an extremely strong Dugtrio Punisher, which is a very strong oppressive treath for all offensive Teams, and a centralizing treath that prevents the Sweep for a lots of Offensive Pokémon: Raikou, Heracross, all fire types with no Ground Immunity; Poison/Grass types, Venusaur, Nidoking, Breloom, Psychyc types like Celebi, Exeggutor, Jynx, Alakazam, Espeon, Steel types: Jirachi.

Dugtrio is very good and nobody is denying that, however, there are a lot more very good dugtrio punishers. All flying types and levitates can take advantage of a dugtrio locked into earthquake, and a bigger list of pokemon can take advantage of a dugtrio locked into other moves. Sub salac heracross is a good example since it eats earthquake, swords dances, takes another earthquake, eats its salac berry, and sweeps/irreparably damages a team.

If you are really worried about dugtrio, then you can even try and counter trap it with your own dugtrio or porygon 2, which will just permanently remove it.

You also list an interesting pokemon that dugtrio “traps”, venusaur. Here’s a little fact:

80 SpA 30 IVs Venusaur Razor Leaf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD 30 IVs Dugtrio: 173-204 (81.9 - 96.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

252 Atk 30 IVs Choice Band Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Venusaur: 192-226 (52.7 - 62%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

While I have no experience using venusaur myself, I have a feeling that if your venusaur ended up in dugtrio range and then got trapped, that just means your opponent played well and your team should have had a better check to dugtrio, again like your own dugtrio (which should pair pretty well with venusaur since venusaur can weaken blissey and snorlax with leech seed chip in sand so dugtrio can revenge kill later).

If you’re struggling this much with skarmory and dugtrio, I think you should have a look at their metagame analysis pages (they may be old but useful) or look at some YouTube videos that likely exist (probably by Jimothy Cool). I’m not saying this to be rude or arrogant, but if you are having difficulty with these mons, this would be a good way of learning how to stop them.

Have a good day

 

[Sharingan]

Snorlax fell off because he's not actually that great in a metagame with permanent sand and forced switches. SpDef Skarmory might have contributed but it's very rare that one pokemon checking something is the reason that another falls off. I'm gonna post my current team and I want you to tell me exactly where the SpDef Skarmory weakness is: https://pokepast.es/a0eec154a41642e9

You have offensive max satk starmie, jirachi max satk, offensive calmcune, the exact same Pokémon i was talking about on my post, does this team needs to be weak to Sdef Skarmory to prove my point? You should list a team without the Pokemon i mentioned to prove my point, so you for sure did not understood my post, and not proven the contrary.

Later i reply to other posts.

You dont know me, but you said i have skill issues, how dare you? Should i lack of respect on you?

I think you have butthurt with Ninjask, but you dont even relize you play a game where Gengar, sdef Skarmory, Dugtrio and TTar centralize such a lot of creative teambuilding that you post me offensive Top OU team with Starmie3 to proof your not weak to Skarm. ( Seriously?) Still this point needs more effort from you to be accepted.

More than this, i read your post saying you do not want to put Roar and PHazers especially for Ninjask, but now you re saying you put It even for other good reasons, so what Is your point? Is this a costructive discussion or you Just want to show me how big is your cock, and how you all are right with no chances of arguing?

I dont want too, to put magnetron + Rapid spin with refresh/Starmie3+ Satk bulkies or SE moves for every of my team member to lose from Skarmory too, but Guess what nobody notice this (i think because of knowledge issues) and keep banning Ninjask + Exploud even in full random OU team.

I dont want too, to put porygon2 in every offensive team if i select Fire types, raikou, heracross, and half of OU to do not get revengkilled, and i said, REVENGKILLED, by dugtrio. Instead i must do It. Nobody say nothing.

Ninjask punish Dugtrio with tanky Sdef Evs, baton passing swords dance to Exploud/Cradily. :O

I have an old team with tanky Sdef Ninjask that can swords dance and Baton pass Exploud on Dugtrio locked in EQ, It Is not a Baton Pass cancer with Mr Mime and other shit stuff, Is a full OU offensive team with a lot of counterplay, (and weaknesses) and an original strategy to punish Dugtrio, but in 2024 i cannot use It because Exploud cannot be used since has soundproof and people who play with Dugtrio and PHazers, lose from him so he must be broken and banned. (KEKW)

We should play a castrated meta where you must punish the same Pokémon with Always the same answers, because variety Is actually been killed by this so bad bans


come back later for the others

 

[YubelVT]

You have offensive max satk starmie, jirachi max satk, offensive calmcune, the exact same Pokémon i was talking about on my post, does this team needs to be weak to Sdef Skarmory to prove my point? You should list a team without the Pokemon i mentioned to prove my point, so you for sure did not understood my post, and not proven the contrary.

Later i reply to other posts.

You dont know me, but you said i have skill issues, how dare you? Should i lack of respect on you?

I think you have butthurt with Ninjask, but you dont even relize you play a game where Gengar, sdef Skarmory, Dugtrio and TTar centralize such a lot of creative teambuilding that you post me offensive Top OU team with Starmie3 to proof your not weak to Skarm. ( Seriously?) Still this point needs more effort from you to be accepted.

More than this, i read your post saying you do not want to put Roar and PHazers especially for Ninjask, but now you re saying you put It even for other good reasons, so what Is your point? Is this a costructive discussion or you Just want to show me how big is your cock, and how you all are right with no chances of arguing?

I dont want too, to put magnetron + Rapid spin with refresh/Starmie3+ Satk bulkies or SE moves for every of my team member to lose from Skarmory too, but Guess what nobody notice this (i think because of knowledge issues) and keep banning Ninjask + Exploud even in full random OU team.

I dont want too, to put porygon2 in every offensive team if i select Fire types, raikou, heracross, and half of OU to do not get revengkilled, and i said, REVENGKILLED, by dugtrio. Instead i must do It. Nobody say nothing.

Ninjask punish Dugtrio with tanky Sdef Evs, baton passing swords dance to Exploud/Cradily. :O

I have an old team with tanky Sdef Ninjask that can swords dance and Baton pass Exploud on Dugtrio locked in EQ, It Is not a Baton Pass cancer with Mr Mime and other shit stuff, Is a full OU offensive team with a lot of counterplay, (and weaknesses) and an original strategy to punish Dugtrio, but in 2024 i cannot use It because Exploud cannot be used since has soundproof and people who play with Dugtrio and PHazers, lose from him so he must be broken and banned. (KEKW)

We should play a castrated meta where you must punish the same Pokémon with Always the same answers, because variety Is actually been killed by this so bad bans


come back later for the others

Just when I think I'm you pull me right back in! Alright let's do this. Once again in arbitrary order because there's a point I'm saving for last

More than this, i read your post saying you do not want to put Roar and PHazers especially for Ninjask, but now you re saying you put It even for other good reasons, so what Is your point? Is this a costructive discussion or you Just want to show me how big is your cock, and how you all are right with no chances of arguing?

You want to put phazing on your teams in general yes, but ninjask teams, especially in the modern day, really make phazing inconsistent outside of exactly 3 options: Keen Eye Skarmory, Haze Gengar, and Perish Song Celebi. This is because they fucking run sand attack (really the hallmark of a super competitive strategy amirite) and for some reason Roar and Whirlwind perform accuracy checks. Even if they didn't, the pure matchup cheese inherent in ninjask pass is just uncompetitive (or did it never occur to you why trap passing is banned in every baton pass generation, stat passing is banned in both DPP and BW and baton pass as a move is banned in every subsequent generation).

I dont want too, to put magnetron + Rapid spin with refresh/Starmie3+ Satk bulkies or SE moves for every of my team member to lose from Skarmory too, but Guess what nobody notice this (i think because of knowledge issues) and keep banning Ninjask + Exploud even in full random OU team.

I dont want too, to put porygon2 in every offensive team if i select Fire types, raikou, heracross, and half of OU to do not get revengkilled, and i said, REVENGKILLED, by dugtrio. Instead i must do It. Nobody say nothing.

Just fucking run zapdos my brother in christ it solves most of these problems in one team slot and punishes dugtrio locked into not rock slide. Zapdos is easily top 2 imo and it's in part because it just does everything you want it to. Regardless, you would want to run the moves that hit Skarmory super effectively anyway because they also hit other pokemon for big damage! Starmie always wants Thunderbolt because otherwise Suicune will come in for free! Mixed Mence and Mixed Tyranitar always want Fire Blast because there are other steel types and grass types in OU! The moves you say are run specifically for Skarmory would be run anyway most of the time because the good pokemon that use them are not using them for specifically Skarmory.

Ninjask punish Dugtrio with tanky Sdef Evs, baton passing swords dance to Exploud/Cradily. :O

I have an old team with tanky Sdef Ninjask that can swords dance and Baton pass Exploud on Dugtrio locked in EQ, It Is not a Baton Pass cancer with Mr Mime and other shit stuff, Is a full OU offensive team with a lot of counterplay, (and weaknesses) and an original strategy to punish Dugtrio, but in 2024 i cannot use It because Exploud cannot be used since has soundproof and people who play with Dugtrio and PHazers, lose from him so he must be broken and banned. (KEKW)

I am going to be as charitable as possible with the ninjask spread I use for these calcs, and ignoring the fact that the things I'm calcing with also just like to run roar.
252 SpA 30 IVs Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ninjask: 328-386 (100.6 - 118.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Offensive)
0 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ninjask: 270-318 (82.8 - 97.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage (Agility Pass)
120 Atk 30 IVs Zapdos Drill Peck vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ninjask: 336-396 (103 - 121.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Mixed)

180 SpA Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ninjask: 285-336 (87.4 - 103%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO (Standard)
252 SpA Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ninjask: 300-354 (92 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO (Max SpA Timid)

252+ Atk Skarmory Drill Peck vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ninjask: 389-458 (119.3 - 140.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Offensive Spikes)

Do you get the idea here? Bulky Ninjask is a meme. Even weak shit like standard defensive Swampert Ice Beam is still doing more than enough to break your sub, and Swampert also fucking LOVES to run roar.

Also also, there is no physical special split in this generation so HP Bug is still physical.

You dont know me, but you said i have skill issues, how dare you? Should i lack of respect on you?

I'm hesitant to do this but at this point I am just gonna say that yes, I do think you have skill issues. And you know what? I'm going to prove that I am a better player than you. Where is your replay of beating Vapicuno while also completely bungling the first turn? I like flexing this to my friends and stuff but doing it to someone else just felt wrong, until you brought up SpDef Ninjask as a good Dugtrio punish like you knew what you were talking about. Where is your replay of beating a player way fucking better than you? I'm trying very hard to not make this sound like an ego trip because I'm trying to highlight that, even when on a team that is very strange and not standard, Vapicuno almost fucking beat a standard Physical Offense team. I'm also going to contradict your claim that the meta is "castrated" because that's fucking insane. WAILORD of all pokemon is a halfway decent lead because it will always survive an offensive Zapdos Thunderbolt (without factoring in crits) with max HP and relatively little investment in Special Defense and can just ohko it with a 0 investment Explosion. And that's just my experience with my preferred lead.

 

[Sharingan]

Funnily enough I looked at the uubl list and while skarmory is pretty good into most of those pokemon, they all have far more significant issues than skarmory. Blissey walls all of the special attackers and most of the physical attackers are either too slow/too frail or not strong enough to actually break standard teams (or they’re slaking which is there because of truant).

Spdef skarmory does check a fair amount of the ou ranked pokemon as well, but it can’t actually deal damage back to them because of the sets passivity. Take, for example, Aerodactyl. Spdef skarm can switch into it clicking rock slide, but it can’t really stop it from clicking rock slide again. Even if it switches into double edge or hp flying, it can’t heal that health back easily without clicking protect, which leaves it vulnerable to being forced out by a switch in that can beat it, like calm mind celebi, jirachi, charizard, mixed mence, mixed ttar, etc. The threat of magneton alone is enough to disincentivise it from staying in for too long, since it dies immediately if that happens.

Skarmory lack of instant reliable recovery is also a key point of weakness, since it can get worn down by repeated hits, like metagross’ meteor mash, Aerodactyl’s double edge, Heracross’ megahorn, etc. This leaves it even weaker in the long game to cleaners like, again Aerodactyl, dd ttar, gyarados, salac heracross, dd mence, etc.



This is a bit dramatic. As mentioned above it’s not too difficult to wear skarmory down and take advantage of it in the late game. Other tactics like blowing up in front of it and threatening it with strong special attackers or substitute mons can also just force it out. A well built team with a solid plan can beat skarmory fairly easily.



Dugtrio is very good and nobody is denying that, however, there are a lot more very good dugtrio punishers. All flying types and levitates can take advantage of a dugtrio locked into earthquake, and a bigger list of pokemon can take advantage of a dugtrio locked into other moves. Sub salac heracross is a good example since it eats earthquake, swords dances, takes another earthquake, eats its salac berry, and sweeps/irreparably damages a team.

If you are really worried about dugtrio, then you can even try and counter trap it with your own dugtrio or porygon 2, which will just permanently remove it.

You also list an interesting pokemon that dugtrio “traps”, venusaur. Here’s a little fact:

80 SpA 30 IVs Venusaur Razor Leaf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD 30 IVs Dugtrio: 173-204 (81.9 - 96.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

252 Atk 30 IVs Choice Band Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Venusaur: 192-226 (52.7 - 62%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

While I have no experience using venusaur myself, I have a feeling that if your venusaur ended up in dugtrio range and then got trapped, that just means your opponent played well and your team should have had a better check to dugtrio, again like your own dugtrio (which should pair pretty well with venusaur since venusaur can weaken blissey and snorlax with leech seed chip in sand so dugtrio can revenge kill later).

If you’re struggling this much with skarmory and dugtrio, I think you should have a look at their metagame analysis pages (they may be old but useful) or look at some YouTube videos that likely exist (probably by Jimothy Cool). I’m not saying this to be rude or arrogant, but if you are having difficulty with these mons, this would be a good way of learning how to stop them.

Have a good day

Thanks for your polite answer! Well, just a point, Venusaur should get Revengkilled by Dugtrio, but it is obviusly not a Defensive set like yours, but the Swords Dance Physical set, which can run max Atk and Max Spd; he is stopped by him, Like him, lots of other Pokèmon i listed.

I do not have struggle on Dugtrio or Skarmory, I'm saying they are centralizing much more than people complaining they do not want to pur Roar for Ninjask because of Baton Pass. I know the game, I don't need Youtube videos

Flying types punishes Dugtrio, Choice Bander Mence/Aerodactyl, same Pokèmon that are OUs since always; that's ok, point of discussion was not " there are no Dugtrio punishers" a good point of discussion could be... we want to play ADV with all diversity he has to offer? Do you like original strategy of ADV? Would be a better metagame if diversity could compete with the most top OU of the meta?
If yes, why we are banning original strategy because of some niche of Cheap combos, which are too easygoing? isn't better to ban the easygoing strategy instead rip the whole root?

I'm just saying that, banning Ninjask because of Sand Attack Baton Pass team is probably not the best idea, you just need to ban Sand Attack or put an Accuracy Clause, like the old NetBattle days. If i remember correctly, in NetBattle era there were Accuracy clause, which caused Sand Attack and accuracy moves to always fail. That's a solution for cancer BPass teams? Think about it.

Skarmory lack of instant reliable recovery is also a key point of weakness, since it can get worn down by repeated hits, like metagross’ meteor mash, Aerodactyl’s double edge, Heracross’ megahorn, etc. This leaves it even weaker in the long game to cleaners like, again Aerodactyl, dd ttar, gyarados, salac heracross, dd mence, etc.

Pretty much all standard staff here... they all have Choice Band, pretty obvius they can pressure Skarmory with no Def Evs... and this is another topic. Point was, Skarmory is too good vs other Pokémons, that heavily limits them and heavily limits lots of offensive strategies, which can add lots of diversity, and also, all this Pokémon have Swampert/Suicune as main counter, except Heracross.

Just when I think I'm you pull me right back in! Alright let's do this. Once again in arbitrary order because there's a point I'm saving for last


You want to put phazing on your teams in general yes, but ninjask teams, especially in the modern day, really make phazing inconsistent outside of exactly 3 options: Keen Eye Skarmory, Haze Gengar, and Perish Song Celebi. This is because they fucking run sand attack (really the hallmark of a super competitive strategy amirite) and for some reason Roar and Whirlwind perform accuracy checks. Even if they didn't, the pure matchup cheese inherent in ninjask pass is just uncompetitive (or did it never occur to you why trap passing is banned in every baton pass generation, stat passing is banned in both DPP and BW and baton pass as a move is banned in every subsequent generation).


Just fucking run zapdos my brother in christ it solves most of these problems in one team slot and punishes dugtrio locked into not rock slide. Zapdos is easily top 2 imo and it's in part because it just does everything you want it to. Regardless, you would want to run the moves that hit Skarmory super effectively anyway because they also hit other pokemon for big damage! Starmie always wants Thunderbolt because otherwise Suicune will come in for free! Mixed Mence and Mixed Tyranitar always want Fire Blast because there are other steel types and grass types in OU! The moves you say are run specifically for Skarmory would be run anyway most of the time because the good pokemon that use them are not using them for specifically Skarmory.


The point is not "how to punish Dugtrio, I know how to. The point you must comprend is that Dugtrio is a centralizing treath that limits a lot of Offensive Pokémons, and players are forced to Porygon 2; Zapdos, Drumzard, or whatever you like. This is a point everyone does not complain, but all people complain so strongly, when they see Baton Passers. I cannot even build a team with Agility Jolteon and Swords Dance Celebi in 2024. pretty fucking ridicolous


I am going to be as charitable as possible with the ninjask spread I use for these calcs, and ignoring the fact that the things I'm calcing with also just like to run roar.
252 SpA 30 IVs Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ninjask: 328-386 (100.6 - 118.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Offensive)
0 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ninjask: 270-318 (82.8 - 97.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage (Agility Pass)
120 Atk 30 IVs Zapdos Drill Peck vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ninjask: 336-396 (103 - 121.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Mixed)

180 SpA Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ninjask: 285-336 (87.4 - 103%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO (Standard)
252 SpA Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ninjask: 300-354 (92 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO (Max SpA Timid)

252+ Atk Skarmory Drill Peck vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ninjask: 389-458 (119.3 - 140.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Offensive Spikes)

Do you get the idea here? Bulky Ninjask is a meme. Even weak shit like standard defensive Swampert Ice Beam is still doing more than enough to break your sub, and Swampert also fucking LOVES to run roar.

Also also, there is no physical special split in this generation so HP Bug is still physical.

I'm hesitant to do this but at this point I am just gonna say that yes, I do think you have skill issues. And you know what? I'm going to prove that I am a better player than you. Where is your replay of beating Vapicuno while also completely bungling the first turn? I like flexing this to my friends and stuff but doing it to someone else just felt wrong, until you brought up SpDef Ninjask as a good Dugtrio punish like you knew what you were talking about. Where is your replay of beating a player way fucking better than you? I'm trying very hard to not make this sound like an ego trip because I'm trying to highlight that, even when on a team that is very strange and not standard, Vapicuno almost fucking beat a standard Physical Offense team. I'm also going to contradict your claim that the meta is "castrated" because that's fucking insane. WAILORD of all pokemon is a halfway decent lead because it will always survive an offensive Zapdos Thunderbolt (without factoring in crits) with max HP and relatively little investment in Special Defense and can just ohko it with a 0 investment Explosion. And that's just my experience with my preferred lead.

pls look in red my reply in the quote

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3oubeta-154091478

Here is what happens vs Zapdos with my Meme Ninjask.

Does this player had Skill Issues?
here was the team: https://pokepast.es/a37edb05de9c1bed

is this team a Baton Pass? No. Is this team Broken with no counterplay? No. But still, can't play right now.

 

[bdt2002]

Hey there, ADV community. I've been lurking around this thread for a while now, and I wanted to discuss a specific group of Pokémon that's been on my mind lately:



These five are what I've started to call the "Big Five Leads" of ADV OU (name pending), in no particular order. Whether you're stuck playing low ladder like me, medium, high, or top of the ladder, chances are that you're familiar with these five Pokémon. Since it's almost May anyways, I won't post usage rates here just yet (I plan on coming back to this post once the April 2024 usage rates are published), but for now, I would be willing to bet that at least half of all ADV OU teams run one of these five Pokémon in the lead slot, and that percentage could be even higher.

This is not to say that these are the only viable leads in the tier, of course, but any other lead matchup you'll come across was likely chosen with at least one of these five Pokémon in mind. As a more casual player who wishes to improve at the game, I believe it's worth it for newer players and even returning veterans to have an understanding of the dynamic between these lead options, why they are so viable, and how they match up against themselves and other popular lead options. The first thing that caught my attention with these five Pokémon was that there's no de facto best or worst of the five. Instead there's this really cool rock-paper-scissors kind of situation where the best available options are still noticeably more viable than most other choices, but they help keep each other from getting out of hand, not too different from the famous Pikachu/Kirby/Captain Falcon triangle in competitive Smash 64.

You would think based off of typings, base stats, and Abilities that some leads should consistently win against other leads, but over time, ADV OU has developed into a diverse, colorful metagame where even these Pokémon can tweak their movesets, Abilities, and EV spreads to better matchup against other leads. What's more, each of these Pokémon does a great job at advertising part of ADV OU to newer players, and it's their flexibility in use in their roles that allows these five Pokémon to be the defining metagame forces that they are. Lead Zapdos, for example, looks like it has a pretty good matchup spread into the rest of this list as a fast, Electric-Type special attacker, but even without taking the Lead Tyranitar matchup into account, it can't just throw out Thunderbolts and Hidden Powers left and right without having to account for any anti-Zapdos tech the opponent might have, to say nothing of the possibility of your opponent having a Blissey or another special wall in the back. On the other side of the spectrum, Lead Salamence feels like it should have a poor matchup spread against the rest of this list, but it has the stats, Ability and movepool to contribute to lead matchups you would expect Salamence to lose more often than not.

I think it speaks to the diversity and viability of ADV OU's lead metagame that after a long time of trying to come up with something that has a strong matchup into all five of Zapdos, Skarmory, Tyranitar, Salamence, and Metagross, I simply couldn't. The closest I could come up with was this Gengar set I crafted, but even this feels a bit gimmicky:



Gengar @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 116 Atk / 216 SpA / 176 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Substitute
- Focus Punch
- Ice Punch
- Thunderbolt

176+ Speed EVs is a very well-known benchmark to allow Gengar to outspeed 252+ Speed base 100 Pokémon, and the attacking EVs were set up to guarantee a 2HKO on Zapdos after Leftovers and an OHKO on standard Lead Salamence spreads both with Ice Punch, as well as a 3HKO on uninvested Metagross leads with Thunderbolt. Substitute in the lead slot was an idea I had to try and fend off Zapdos's Thunder Wave as well as scout for potential Choice Band locks and to try and best aid Focus Punch, which at 116 Attack EVs still does enough damage from full to place Lead Tyranitar into KO range of Ice Punch or Thunderbolt after Leftovers, while also being just enough to hit Blissey for a 2HKO after Leftovers if Spikes and Sand are both up and Gengar hasn't been Intimidated or burned. That all sounds good in theory, but very rarely, if ever, does Focus Punch do as much as I want it to do, in the lead slot anyway, and on top of the Blissey calculation being extremely specific anyway, it turns out that Tyranitar just straight up beats you in the lead matchup if it's the Pursuit/Crunch set before you get any ideas of Focus Punching it in the face. As an extra bit of annoyance, you can even lose against Lead Zapdos even with Substitute if Ice Punch doesn't crit and Thunderbolt hits its 10% paralysis roll, or if the Zapdos is able to successfully SpeedPass into something that matches up well into you because of just how frail you are and how much you rely on Substitute to take any damage at all.

 

[YubelVT]

I think you cannot understand the point of discussion and just object everything good point to not create constructive discussion, your smogon idols told Ninjask is Broken, ok, you must agree with them. no problem,

If my team is that bad, why i cannot use it in 2024? Because Ninjask is broken right?

you literally did not proven the contrary on any of my point. yet, you still keep playing with same 6 Pokémons and call ADV such a meta full of variety



This team got on high peak in ladder at time, there were some good players, as always. So, it was not such a bad team, it has weaknesses it is not a no counterplay team, but we cannot use it cause of Ninjask + Exploud Baton Pass archetypes do some shitty stuff on butthurt kids, and that sucks.



Fix the core then, every time you see Gengar is match up cheesy, there are such a lots of Tyranitar different sets that can surprise his counters... is this not true? This is the game, you should limit Baton Pass to let have players a way to counterplay, not ban every SoundProof user or Espeon/Jolteon + Celebi Calm Mind teams.

Once more into the breach

I think you cannot understand the point of discussion and just object everything good point to not create constructive discussion, your smogon idols told Ninjask is Broken, ok, you must agree with them. no problem,

I can accuse you of watching that one BKC video with the hyperbole title and getting your opinion from there, but that's probably not true. I actually used to be a contrarian on baton pass for a long time. But after using dedicated BP chains in gen 7 AG and cheesing the shit out of people with minimize + ingrain (not very consistently but that was a teambuilding issue, BP is objectively broken) and, more recently, playing against the neutered version present in Gen 3 OU, I came to the conclusion that most other people had: Baton Pass as a dedicated strategy is broken as shit in a best of 1 environment. Even in best of 3 the uncompetitive matchup cheese is too much.

If my team is that bad, why i cannot use it in 2024? Because Ninjask is broken right?

As stated before, Ninjask is not a good pokemon. That is a UU pokemon with zero OU niche without Baton Pass in its movepool. Look ahead one generation to DPP, where Ninjask, while tiered as OU, has literally zero niche in the tier because it can't pass stats. It's a genuinely terrible pokemon when it can't do the single thing it's good at.

This team got on high peak in ladder at time, there were some good players, as always. So, it was not such a bad team, it has weaknesses it is not a no counterplay team, but we cannot use it cause of Ninjask + Exploud Baton Pass archetypes do some shitty stuff on butthurt kids, and that sucks.

wow a matchup cheese team getting high ladder in best of 1? crazy...

You'll note that I'm being really fucking sarcastic.

Fix the core then, every time you see Gengar is match up cheesy, there are such a lots of Tyranitar different sets that can surprise his counters... is this not true? This is the game, you should limit Baton Pass to let have players a way to counterplay, not ban every SoundProof user or Espeon/Jolteon + Celebi Calm Mind teams.

There's something you don't seem to understand. Outside of very rare cases (gen 9 Unburden Sneasler for example)*, a single good pokemon with multiple viable sets is not matchup cheese. Unless your entire team is poorly built, or you're a poor player, you won't be losing the game immediately if you predict one gengar set and the opponent is using another one. Unless the council and playerbase intends on banning all statpassing (which I highly doubt considering the many healthy ways statpassing is used currently and has been using in the past), banning speedpassing, or even just banning Ninjask, DOES fix the core issue. If you ban speedpassing, suddenly you won't have to contend with a Marowak that is faster than you and ohko's basically your entire team. If you ban Ninjask, speedpassing actually costs tempo because you don't just get to grab the boost for free with protect and actually have to click Agility.


*Gen 9 Unburden Sneasler had 2.5 hard walls (Dondozo, Skeledirge, and sort of Unaware Clefable), 2 soft walls that folded to gunk shot or your anti gholdengo move of choice 70% of the time (Zapdos and Moltres), 1 soft wall that folded to a crit (Corviknight), and 1 soft wall that wasn't actually a wall at all because you could just run shadow claw or night slash (Gholdengo). This set was at its absolute best during peak Gliscor meta because Gliscor was just setup fodder in grassy terrain. 2 SD's and you had a decent chance of winning the game on the spot. I felt the need to elaborate on why Gen 9 Unburden Sneasler was a matchup fish pokemon, but unlike Ninjask BP teams in gen 3, this was actually consistently good.

 

[YubelVT]

Hey there, ADV community. I've been lurking around this thread for a while now, and I wanted to discuss a specific group of Pokémon that's been on my mind lately:



These five are what I've started to call the "Big Five Leads" of ADV OU (name pending), in no particular order. Whether you're stuck playing low ladder like me, medium, high, or top of the ladder, chances are that you're familiar with these five Pokémon. Since it's almost May anyways, I won't post usage rates here just yet (I plan on coming back to this post once the April 2024 usage rates are published), but for now, I would be willing to bet that at least half of all ADV OU teams run one of these five Pokémon in the lead slot, and that percentage could be even higher.

This is not to say that these are the only viable leads in the tier, of course, but any other lead matchup you'll come across was likely chosen with at least one of these five Pokémon in mind. As a more casual player who wishes to improve at the game, I believe it's worth it for newer players and even returning veterans to have an understanding of the dynamic between these lead options, why they are so viable, and how they match up against themselves and other popular lead options. The first thing that caught my attention with these five Pokémon was that there's no de facto best or worst of the five. Instead there's this really cool rock-paper-scissors kind of situation where the best available options are still noticeably more viable than most other choices, but they help keep each other from getting out of hand, not too different from the famous Pikachu/Kirby/Captain Falcon triangle in competitive Smash 64.

You would think based off of typings, base stats, and Abilities that some leads should consistently win against other leads, but over time, ADV OU has developed into a diverse, colorful metagame where even these Pokémon can tweak their movesets, Abilities, and EV spreads to better matchup against other leads. What's more, each of these Pokémon does a great job at advertising part of ADV OU to newer players, and it's their flexibility in use in their roles that allows these five Pokémon to be the defining metagame forces that they are. Lead Zapdos, for example, looks like it has a pretty good matchup spread into the rest of this list as a fast, Electric-Type special attacker, but even without taking the Lead Tyranitar matchup into account, it can't just throw out Thunderbolts and Hidden Powers left and right without having to account for any anti-Zapdos tech the opponent might have, to say nothing of the possibility of your opponent having a Blissey or another special wall in the back. On the other side of the spectrum, Lead Salamence feels like it should have a poor matchup spread against the rest of this list, but it has the stats, Ability and movepool to contribute to lead matchups you would expect Salamence to lose more often than not.

I think it speaks to the diversity and viability of ADV OU's lead metagame that after a long time of trying to come up with something that has a strong matchup into all five of Zapdos, Skarmory, Tyranitar, Salamence, and Metagross, I simply couldn't. The closest I could come up with was this Gengar set I crafted, but even this feels a bit gimmicky:



Gengar @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 116 Atk / 216 SpA / 176 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Substitute
- Focus Punch
- Ice Punch
- Thunderbolt

176+ Speed EVs is a very well-known benchmark to allow Gengar to outspeed 252+ Speed base 100 Pokémon, and the attacking EVs were set up to guarantee a 2HKO on Zapdos after Leftovers and an OHKO on standard Lead Salamence spreads both with Ice Punch, as well as a 3HKO on uninvested Metagross leads with Thunderbolt. Substitute in the lead slot was an idea I had to try and fend off Zapdos's Thunder Wave as well as scout for potential Choice Band locks and to try and best aid Focus Punch, which at 116 Attack EVs still does enough damage from full to place Lead Tyranitar into KO range of Ice Punch or Thunderbolt after Leftovers, while also being just enough to hit Blissey for a 2HKO after Leftovers if Spikes and Sand are both up and Gengar hasn't been Intimidated or burned. That all sounds good in theory, but very rarely, if ever, does Focus Punch do as much as I want it to do, in the lead slot anyway, and on top of the Blissey calculation being extremely specific anyway, it turns out that Tyranitar just straight up beats you in the lead matchup if it's the Pursuit/Crunch set before you get any ideas of Focus Punching it in the face. As an extra bit of annoyance, you can even lose against Lead Zapdos even with Substitute if Ice Punch doesn't crit and Thunderbolt hits its 10% paralysis roll, or if the Zapdos is able to successfully SpeedPass into something that matches up well into you because of just how frail you are and how much you rely on Substitute to take any damage at all.

I'm double posting to not take away attention from the essay I posted in my previous post. I've honestly cooked with lead Rhydon in the past and it's unironically not the worst thing in the world... provided the opposing lead does not have HP Grass. I love doing 60% to a lead skarmory, forcing it out, and then chunking whatever comes out next with the next Focus Punch. Killing Salamence in one hit (or forcing it out [provided it doesn't have HP Grass lmao]) is also very funny. If gen 3 didn't have hidden power but the meta was otherwise the exact same, lead rhydon would be crazy.

 

[bdt2002]

I'm double posting to not take away attention from the essay I posted in my previous post. I've honestly cooked with lead Rhydon in the past and it's unironically not the worst thing in the world... provided the opposing lead does not have HP Grass. I love doing 60% to a lead skarmory, forcing it out, and then chunking whatever comes out next with the next Focus Punch. Killing Salamence in one hit (or forcing it out [provided it doesn't have HP Grass lmao]) is also very funny. If gen 3 didn't have hidden power but the meta was otherwise the exact same, lead rhydon would be crazy.

Rhydon is very underrated, I'll have to agree on that much. I haven't tried building with it in ADV yet, but I've tried using Rhydon + Paralysis Support in RBY OU to decent success in the past. I feel like 4 Attacks Rhydon and/or Band Rhydon both have some use in the tier right now, as a lategame breaker but also as an anti-lead against Metagross and even Skarmory to an extent. Unfortunately the one thing holding it back for me as a lead is that I don't know how I feel about certain lead matchups outside of the Big Five, namely Suicune but also the Medicham that's used in higher ladder on occasion. HP Grass lead matchups honestly don't bother me that much if I were building with Lead Rhydon since that feels like the easiest prediction in the world to switch into Thunder Wave Blissey, a prime teammate prospect for this archetype (Chansey in RBY, but same concept).

 

[Sharingan]

Ninjask is not a good Pokémon without Baton Pass, of course, you cutted his balls. What a surprise, he Is a Baton Passer and is good at It, you castrate him and It sucks. Is like saying, Tauros Is not such good without a Choice Band.

Once again, you can ban cheap dedicate strategy that are easygoing, but the meta actually has way to counter a fucking Ninjask swords passer + Speed boost. Perish song, WWind, Roar, Extreme Speed, Taunt, Torment, Trick, RLScreens, Destiny Bond, Fury swipes, Rock blast, Arcanine, use your fantasy, if It was that much broken It would have been banned historically, like Wobbuffet has Always be.


Also, you are contraddicting yourself at every post. You talk about match up cheesy but Is that something that Ninjask can do outsider Baton Passing? No, so you actually KNOW, as soon as you see Ninjask, what Is his job. And you also said that, so you know how to counter It in order to prevent statboost Passing.

Everyone played the game for 20 years and nobody ever banned anything in RSE, in 2024 people get such pussies that cries for Just 2 Baton passers cheesing their standard 6 TOP OU Spikes teams with no answers to a Surprise factor

It Is so clear you are a new gen player of this meta