OU ADV OU Metagame Discussion

[YubelVT]

So what are some bad mons people have been experimenting with lately? As an example, I've been experimenting with CB Rhydon in the lead slot today. I've come to the (probably obvious) conclusion that it sucks but I do think it's extremely funny to do 60% to skarm with Focus Punch

 

[Yak Attack]

So what are some bad mons people have been experimenting with lately? As an example, I've been experimenting with CB Rhydon in the lead slot today. I've come to the (probably obvious) conclusion that it sucks but I do think it's extremely funny to do 60% to skarm with Focus Punch

I've used Rhydon on Zap AgiliPass before. It can reach 384 speed, meaning it outspeeds all but Aero/Jolt. Smth like Swords Dance/Earthquake/Rock Slide/Megahorn seems pretty standard. I paired it with Mag and ran it alongside Wak. The point was to just overwhelm the opponent with Physical setup mons. Another fun AgiliPass recipient is Ursaring. Swords Dance/Return/Earthquake/Rock Slide is pretty standard for the bear. Guts is a boon for bad Gar matchups otherwise.

 

[mr.pinklives]

So what are some bad mons people have been experimenting with lately? As an example, I've been experimenting with CB Rhydon in the lead slot today. I've come to the (probably obvious) conclusion that it sucks but I do think it's extremely funny to do 60% to skarm with Focus Punch

idk man ive been grinding with stall recently
got any recommendations for teams?

 

[YubelVT]

idk man ive been grinding with stall recently
got any recommendations for teams?

see my most recent RMT for the team I've been using, it's pretty solid

 

[Mastervolg]

Hi, this is my first post here, sorry if something goes wrong.
I'm pretty new to ADV OU and today I encountered a strong opponent on ladder that told me that Superman teams are just a noob trap and that they are not good at all. I had neither the arguments, nor the experience to have a debate with them, but I've seen top players use this archetype before and it made me question whether they were right or not. What is the general opinion on Superman as an archetype?

 

[johnnyg2]

Hi, this is my first post here, sorry if something goes wrong.
I'm pretty new to ADV OU and today I encountered a strong opponent on ladder that told me that Superman teams are just a noob trap and that they are not good at all. I had neither the arguments, nor the experience to have a debate with them, but I've seen top players use this archetype before and it made me question whether they were right or not. What is the general opinion on Superman as an archetype?

I’m not sure what your opp was talking about, Superman is prob the classic adv style. Superman is pretty reliable in a tour setting unless your opponent knows it’s coming as there’s absolutely ways to beat it. To me, the main features of Superman is Skarmory, flygon, and a special wall (either bliss or Jirachi). They can either have sand or not, have a ghost (gar/missy) or not, and often have a fast offensive bird ((off) zapdos, moltres, or aero). Superman have to tiptoe around mixed sweepers with ice coverage (mixtar, offpert), snorlax and Suicune (depending on the variant of Superman, sand versions are better than others while roar zap helps a lot against Suicune), fighters (again some versions of Superman are better than others), mag + dol that can get past Misdreavus, and Dugtrio special spam (special attackers like zap and off Suicune if they get past bliss can be very annoying). A well played forre + suit tar can also be very annoying, meta requires some finesse, and cm bliss is bordering on a 6-0 if you stall out Misdreavus’s perish song pp.

I’m assuming your opponent meant the Skarm missy molt zap bliss Flygon version, as this is ubiquitous on ladder. It’s a very solid team, as keeping spikes up indefinitely against most spinners and dealing with moltres alongside a strong defensive core and spikes is quite difficult. It’s a good team to learn the fundamentals of adv with. To be honest, one of the great things about adv is you can really win with almost any well built team if you play well enough, even if some matchups will be more difficult than others.

 

[Mastervolg]

I’m not sure what your opp was talking about, Superman is prob the classic adv style. Superman is pretty reliable in a tour setting unless your opponent knows it’s coming as there’s absolutely ways to beat it. To me, the main features of Superman is Skarmory, flygon, and a special wall (either bliss or Jirachi). They can either have sand or not, have a ghost (gar/missy) or not, and often have a fast offensive bird ((off) zapdos, moltres, or aero). Superman have to tiptoe around mixed sweepers with ice coverage (mixtar, offpert), snorlax and Suicune (depending on the variant of Superman, sand versions are better than others while roar zap helps a lot against Suicune), fighters (again some versions of Superman are better than others), mag + dol that can get past Misdreavus, and Dugtrio special spam (special attackers like zap and off Suicune if they get past bliss can be very annoying). A well played forre + suit tar can also be very annoying, meta requires some finesse, and cm bliss is bordering on a 6-0 if you stall out Misdreavus’s perish song pp.

I’m assuming your opponent meant the Skarm missy molt zap bliss Flygon version, as this is ubiquitous on ladder. It’s a very solid team, as keeping spikes up indefinitely against most spinners and dealing with moltres alongside a strong defensive core and spikes is quite difficult. It’s a good team to learn the fundamentals of adv with. To be honest, one of the great things about adv is you can really win with almost any well built team if you play well enough, even if some matchups will be more difficult than others.

Thanks for the long response. I was playing with a team I made myself with Skarmory, Flygon, Blissey, Misdreavus, Suicune, and Zard, and I wasn't aware that there was a stigma towards this type of teams, but im glad there is room for improvement and is not an archetype with a low skill ceiling as they said ^^

 

[Impropabletank]

For anyone doubting Flygon's viability https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-1982769879

 

[Siglut]

I was playing with a team I made myself with Skarmory, Flygon, Blissey, Misdreavus, Suicune, and Zard

Superman tends to be an archetype that likes to play long games, and charizard isn't very well-suited to longer, slower games. Suicune is pretty good in longer games, but its weakness to spikes means it doesn't really fit well on this type of team. That being said, I 100% encourage doing your own teambuilding and coming up with rules that work for you, so definitely keep experimenting and usually don't listen to your opponents on (low) ladder.

 

[games enjoyer]

I have a hard time creating superman teams because I always want to jam as many flying or levitating mons on my team as possible. I never know how many non flying guys to add.

 

[berry]

More recently, a concept that interested me in ADV was the process of "curating a builder"- that being said, creating a set of comfortable teams among varied playstyles that could be used by a certain player. This specifically came to mind when I was playing through ADV Revival, where I found myself constantly gravitating towards certain teams in my (very bloated) teambuilder that I would pilot over and over, sometimes with minor tweaks. Over the course of the second round of swiss, I tried to go out of my comfort zone a little bit, still reusing some teams that I used in previous rounds and weeks of mushi league. I felt like I wanted to pare my own builder down, because picking a team out of 40 or 50 in a full teambuilder seemed like a nightmare, as well as a way to unintentionally avoid teams that you're "uncomfortable" with in favor of much more predictable setups that you're known to use.

I shelved the idea of creating a set of teams for myself to use for a bit, but the premise got revitalized when I recently heard McMeghan talk about how he tracks his own usage in adv, presumably to make himself more difficult to scout- I liked the idea of tracking your own usage, but I don't see the appeal of making completely brand new teams for every occasion as an ADV player unless you're competing in SPL or the later rounds of cup.

This will probably be my own pre-mushi 15 post-revival project, as I want to go into the season with a handful well-built, varied, and most importantly, comfortable to me teams that I can tweak for certain matchups or use in certain scenarios to make my play less predictable: here is a (preliminary) set of teams and archetypes that I'm thinking of using. I can't provide skeletons or sets quite yet since this post is still the preliminary exploration of this concept, and I also don't (quite yet) want to leak what I'll be using this season. In addition to just these teams, I want to try experimenting more with lead pokemon and how changing leads might give a favorable matchup in some otherwise dubious scenarios (such as changing the TSS Skarmbliss lead to Blissey instead of Tyranitar to see if I can get an advantage against a Zapdos lead team), so I plan on making a results post after the season is over with some examples where I did just that.

Listed in what I believe is most to least aggressive teams:

1. Smeargle Hyper Offense- If you look through my scouter, I've typically been known to use slower, bulkier TSS / Skarmbliss teams- a smeargle spikes hyper offense feels like not only an unexpected pick for me, but one that could catch opponents off guard if they prepared a magdoll or otherwise slower team that aims to win by setting spikes and whittling down or removing spikes during valuable turns that I can exploit through an aggressive HO build.

2. Dugtrio Spec Off - Whether this ends up being a rain build, something like a CM spam, or a weatherless spec off, this archetype has been pretty kind to me when practicing on ladder and is relatively straightforward to use.

3. ZapDug - I think ZapDug could be reasonably combined with Dugtrio Spec Off, but I'd rather they inhibit separate spaces just because some pieces can be swapped out here and there and the team will remain functional.

4. Magneton Phys Off - I think there's a similar argument to be made here with the Dugtrio Spec Off teams, but I like this archeytpe because it offers a decently wide variety of viable leads. Whether I end up going with a more intimidating cbmence lead or something more passive like abr's skarm lead aerobi or even a maglax-type setup, I think there's enough variety between the teams so me telling you I'll be bringing mag phys off lends itself to being a little less predictable.

5. "offensive" TSS - packing more than one type of TSS that you're comfortable with is a great way to make it harder to for the opponent to determine their gameplan in the beginnning of the match

6. Superman - Just a more generally balanced Sand + Spikes floater build, this has the potential to be a bit more offensive than the number 7 defense tss with mons like zapdos, gengar, aero, or even charizard

7. Bulky Skarmbliss TSS - this will probably just be the boring but good team that I highlighted in an earlier post, but this team and its kindness to me throughout revival and on ladder has cemented itself as a staple in my builder. It's also an archetype that changes around well in my eyes, whether you're swapping out the water type for another or changing your majorly pressuring mon to a separate booster.

8. virgin - I think having both extremes of offense and defense-oriented teams goes a long way in making yourself less predictable, especially in a teamtour where each week is a bo3 and bringing the same general archetype twice can be punished harshly just by regular scouting and prediction.

I'm curious as to if this idea has been picked up or adopted by any other players (both tracking your own usage and curating a builder), and what setups might have found success- some of the inspiration from this post has come from ABR's SPL 13 teamdump and the variation of teams that I saw in that (the dump i have is here: https://pokepast.es/b35b1d23351994c4 ), but I didn't want to vary completely far away from the teams that I was fully comfortable with. Any feedback on a system like this (even if the feedback is as simple as: i think you're overthinking this!) is appreciated, I know a lower level tour like mushi probably doesn't require this level of intense prep and tracking, but I think it would be interesting seeing how I might adapt an idea like this to my everyday play.

 

[dk]

I have a hard time creating superman teams because I always want to jam as many flying or levitating mons on my team as possible. I never know how many non flying guys to add.

there's usually at least a spdef rachi or blissey out of necessity. the closest thing there is to a levitating true special sponge is spdef zapdos, but it really can't properly replicate what more traditional options offer---especially on superman where it's often burdened with shoring up your matchup vs metagross more than other structures due to typically lacking a water. spdef rachi and blissey also have access to hard to come by support options like wish and aromatherapy (blissey only), which go a long way in letting supermans outlast the other guy's team.

i reordered mons for the sake of comparing team structures. as you can see, zapdos/skarm/flygon/special sponge +2 is the trend.

alongside a grounded dedicated special sponge (here, always blissey or spdef wishtect rachi), pursuit ttar is common, especially if the team is using spdef wishtect jirachi instead of blissey. alongside the fact that spdef wishtect rachi basically doesn't check gengar, flygon and skarmory functionally beg gengar to come in and be annoying, so trapping gengar goes a long way in keeping the integrity of your defensive core together. not every ttar there is pursuit, though.

so i suppose the answer to your question is 'however many necessary' but the magic number for that seems to be 1-2. you'd probably run into longevity issues if you tried to make a slower, spinless tss thats relatively easy to spike against (because of flygon) only half levitating.

 

[CD56]

Hey, I’ve been playing ADV on the ladder for a while now, and I’m not sure if this is the right place to discuss this, but I believe that hariyama is deserving of OU status. I believe it is better than breloom, jolteon, gyarados, and cloyster, all of whom are ranked OU. it is the best knock off user by a lot, has easy entry points against a couple extremely common pokemon like tyranitar and blissey, scares out snorlax and frailer steel types like magneton, has 2 good abilities, good physical coverage (rock slide, hp bug/ghost) and can even phaze with whirlwind. It has a massive HP and attack stat, which are both important to its success. its ability changes its entry points too. Guts allows it to absorb thunder wave from blissey or jirachi, will o wisp from gengar/moltres, or toxic from skarmory/miscellaneous pokemon. Thick fat allows it to switch into every tyranitar set with ease as well as Fire move + Ice beam blissey, and also strong fire types like moltres. It is also not trapped by dugtrio reliably at all, as it dies to a brick break after 1 spike, and requires significant damage to kill with Earthquake, as aerial ace is useless against Hariyama’s solo fighting typing. I know for sure that i’ve had moments when Hariyama is in against me where i have to make bold predictions on knock off or a strong fighting attack, and the wrong prediction can be a huge tempo swing. It is magnificently unique and effective at what it does, and is far less predictable than most other fighting types for this reason. Because of this and more, I think Hariyama definitely more than deserves OU status at this point.

 

[caelT8]

Hey, I’ve been playing ADV on the ladder for a while now, and I’m not sure if this is the right place to discuss this, but I believe that hariyama is deserving of OU status. I believe it is better than breloom, jolteon, gyarados, and cloyster, all of whom are ranked OU. it is the best knock off user by a lot, has easy entry points against a couple extremely common pokemon like tyranitar and blissey, scares out snorlax and frailer steel types like magneton, has 2 good abilities, good physical coverage (rock slide, hp bug/ghost) and can even phaze with whirlwind. It has a massive HP and attack stat, which are both important to its success. its ability changes its entry points too. Guts allows it to absorb thunder wave from blissey or jirachi, will o wisp from gengar/moltres, or toxic from skarmory/miscellaneous pokemon. Thick fat allows it to switch into every tyranitar set with ease as well as Fire move + Ice beam blissey, and also strong fire types like moltres. It is also not trapped by dugtrio reliably at all, as it dies to a brick break after 1 spike, and requires significant damage to kill with Earthquake, as aerial ace is useless against Hariyama’s solo fighting typing. I know for sure that i’ve had moments when Hariyama is in against me where i have to make bold predictions on knock off or a strong fighting attack, and the wrong prediction can be a huge tempo swing. It is magnificently unique and effective at what it does, and is far less predictable than most other fighting types for this reason. Because of this and more, I think Hariyama definitely more than deserves OU status at this point.

Hariyama definitely deserves OU. During the next ADV tier shift, it will likely get it.

 

[CD56]

Hariyama definitely deserves OU. During the next ADV tier shift, it will likely get it.

When do the tier shifts happen? I am still kind of new to how the tiering system works in this generation, as I have mostly played newer gens before and I know it's much different

 

[Sepulo]

I'd like to believe that the rulings keeping ADV OU Baton Pass in check have finally reached a satisfying conclusion. Over the years, valiant players have put time and effort into conveying their arguments regarding the rulings, earning suspect test requirements, powering through opposing teams that abused the holes in the various past rulings, and designing new rulings with the intention of limiting Baton Pass's negatives aspects while preserving its positives ones. However, my experience on the ladder leads me to believe that there's still work to be done. Not with Baton Pass itself, but some of the "strategies" that compliment it.

I'm proposing that more action should be taken to limit the amount of RNG abuse that BP teams can commit (mainly Ninjask's use of Swagger/Sand Attack/Mud-Slap as its 4th move). To clarify, I view banning the mons that cause these issues as the wrong path to take. I believe that they aren't inherently uncompetitive, assuming that the most problematic aspects of them can be addressed through straightforward bans.

The importance of "Generational Identity" is another topic that's been debated over time. For those of you who value it, here are several aspects of ADV OU's identity that pertain to my argument:

1. The metagame has less of a problem with offensive threats that can take over games thanks to favorable RNG and/or matchup, compared to some of the metagames of later generations
2. Using entry hazards is a good strategy, but is much further from mandatory than in other generations
3. Being an old generation with a dedicated playerbase, ADV OU is used to receiving new rule changes that are widely requested (Beat Up not using names Mod, Freeze Clause, Evasion Items Clause, etc.)
4. The metagame has a wide variety of viable teamstyles and mons, and many mons have variety in their sets
5. Baton Pass is legal, under the belief that the restrictions surrounding it allow it to have a positive presence in the metagame
6. ADV OU is often regarded as one of the best metagames that Smogon has to offer, including in regards to laddering

1. Dedicated BP teams are designed around subverting this ideal. When playing against them, it's possible to find yourself in an irrecoverable position because you anticipated the wrong BP recipient, or it had just the right set to finish off your team, or you made a genuine misplay(s) at some point. These instances are part of the game. But to be in that position because they played for pure hax and got rewarded for it? That's just stupid.

2. Roar and Whirlwind, the only phazing moves of Gen 3, serve three main functions: Racking up Spikes damage, temporarily checking mons with setup, and scouting your opponent's team. If you don't use Spikes on your team, you only have two of the main incentives. And even if you do use Spikes, phazing moves can still be hard to justify sometimes in the teambuilder. You can argue that teambuilding is relatively lax in ADV OU compared to other metagames, but between needing to get past common defensive cores and permanently check common offensive threats and establish a concise gameplan and whatnot, it's not unreasonable for your team to have no phazing moves at all.
Roar and Whirlwind don't bypass the Accuracy check until Gen 6, and of course clicking them doesn't prevent your mon from hitting itself in confusion. However, phazing moves are generally still a better click under RNG-susceptible circumstances than offensive moves are, since you don't need to chain multiple moves together to stop the BP team from getting out of control. The point I'm trying to make here is that teams without a phazing move are screwed over extra hard by RNG-abuse BP teams, and this shouldn't be excused with an attitude of "Well teams without phazers are inherently bad", because that's a close-minded opinion.
[Skarmory is an amazing and frequently-used mon that almost always uses Roar, and is immune to Accuracy drops thanks to its Ability Keen Eye. However, BP teams often cover this form of counterplay by using Magneton to trap and remove it, making it difficult for Skarmory to fully contribute to the battle]

3. Because of this dynamic, introducing a new ban that addresses this topic wouldn't be too unusual. There's certainly at least some demand for it. I don't think that anything could reasonably be done about the Paralysis angle; considering that the Paralysis status has strategic merit through dropping Speed, and it's a potential secondary effect of moves that can't be replaced by other moves (Thunderbolt and Thunder). However, Accuracy-lowering and Confusion are far easier to remove from the game. You might as well remove Attract too since the most diehard Ninjask RNG abusers will resort to anything to try to fulfill their sick fantasies. That leaves them with Silver Wind and Secret Power (essentially a 70 BP Body Slam). At least Silver Wind isn't passive, and rarely procs. [Because the current Baton Pass Clause isn't a Mod, it's possible to pass both Speed Pass boosts and Silver Wind's omniboost(s) simultaneously]

4. A reoccurring issue with competitive mons in general is that some players who aren't very developed yet choose to rely on RNG-heavy strategies, in an attempt to make the anticipated difference in skill less of a factor. The thought of someone choosing to do that in this metagame containing a healthy amount of different team archetypes and mons to develop their knowledge and skills with; it's a sad one. Limiting the options to do so would help prevent this.
Moves used for the purpose of hax tend to be a blanket "check" for counterplay against strategies, as is the case of Ninjask using Swagger/Sand Attack/Mud-Slap. Removing these options would add more depth to the choice of Ninjask's 4th move. Toxic to wear down phazers and stall out mons in general, a coverage move to help check a mon(s) that the team struggles against overall, Screech to support an incoming physical attacker, Sunny Day to remove Sand and possibly support an incoming mon, that's enough for me right there.
Not that it matters much, but the mons on BP cheese teams tend to not depend on those teams to be viable. Not-OUs like Marowak and Hariyama have legitimate uses elsewhere, and even something like Poliwrath could work on a not-terrible team if you want to use it that badly (I'd personally try using it on ZapDug, a less cheesy BP-centered team). And it's not like BP cheese team users would have to totally scrap their existing teams just because a few filler moves got banned.

5. I don't want Baton Pass to be associated with cheese. I want Baton Pass to be known for making Blissey more manageable and encouraging players to use a wider variety of special checks, for comboing with Substitute to reward mons with sky-high defensive stats (like Regice and Regirock) and support the format's coolest move (Focus Punch), for DryPass being a more balanced version of the pivot moves introduced in later gens, for AgiliPass Zapdos + 4 mons that function with and without the Speed boost + revenge killer being a usable team, etc.
I don't expect a movement to remove the ability to do any of these things to gain much traction, but the sketchier Baton Pass users and teammates being the way they currently are is making that more of a possibility.
[I acknowledge that this section of my argument was pretty opinionated]

6. This isn't something that you can definitively escape from through raising your elo. I've been in the #2-#200 range on the ladder for a long time now, and I still occasionally encounter these teams. I don't play in tournaments, so I'm not aware of what sort of presence teams like these have in that environment, but I don't see how any feasible reality regarding that part of the format would harm my case.
I might've made it sound like BP cheese users are all mediocre players, but I'm well aware that that's not true. Some of the best players out there experiment with these teams, trying to push them are far as possible under whatever rules exist at the time. As someone deep into teambuilding, I have some respect for that, but there's such a thing as crossing the hax-fishing line, and some of the BP teams floating around are guilty of that.
It seems to me that many of the new ADV OU players view the tier in a naively optimistic light: It's an oasis to visit while the SV OU council tries to make the most of the hand Game Freak has dealt them, where the metagame is balanced and practically everything is viable. We can agree that this is a great tier, but you will get suffocated by defensive cores and trounced by offensive threats if you're not sufficiently prepared. BP cheese teams are annoying enough to battle against for us seasoned players; imagine how the large amount of newer ones feel.

Tbh I'd still view Ninjask as a net negative for the metagame even if the changes that I'd like to see were to go through, but I understand that it takes more to ban a mon from a tier than just that. And not that they should be a massive priority, but you'd get a lot of flack from the "Smogon hates fun, bans are inherently bad, they can't adapt yadayada" crowd. If you were to remove Ninjask's most blatant RNG-abuse capabilities though, that would be more difficult to argue against for those that would be against it. I can imagine those people saying "Just switch out duh", ignoring the fact that doing so gives the opponent a free turn that they're going to get a lot of mileage out of.

Looking at the ladder statistics just now, Ninjask that use Swagger/Sand Attack/Mud-Slap aren't actually that common. And I don't believe that those sets are overpowered, or that any other Ninjask sets are. I'm just a ladder player who views the concept of banning in a relatively favorable light.

 

[verbatim]

So what are some bad mons people have been experimenting with lately? As an example, I've been experimenting with CB Rhydon in the lead slot today. I've come to the (probably obvious) conclusion that it sucks but I do think it's extremely funny to do 60% to skarm with Focus Punch

By no means my idea, but one thing I've been playing around with to surprising performance (not amazing, but better than expected) has been a slight modification of thelinearcurve's CB Solrock set (+ team)


Solrock @ Choice Band
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rock Slide
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Explosion
- Earthquake --> Sleep Talk


Insofar as I've been able to intuit the basic idea is that you treat it like a budget CB Metagross so that you can run actual Metagross with a different set in the back. The sample team uses Solrock with Agility Metagross and Magneton, who has some interesting synergy with the lead.



Lines vs common leads in order of Vapicuno's lead analysis: I won't be talking in depth each time about the opponent clicking Protect or hard switching to a ghost, which are two very big weaknesses that make this overall not that stellar.

HP Fighting or Explode:
Solrock's 238 speed and strength mean you outspeed everyone but Fast DDTar (can't OHKO you), and guarantee a kill on all listed SmogDex sets that do not invest in bulk. Against max bulk DexSets HP Fighting has a 62.5% chance to OHKO. Running a Dugtrio ensures that any surviving Tar, and many random Pokemon that might get explode chipped on the switch in, will not live to see another turn.

Explode or Switch out on a Protect Read
YOLO Skarm outcreeps you by the single IV you need to drop for HP fighting and gets a spike out first. You have an 87.5% chance to OHKO YOLO Skarm and 0% for normal skarm. However, in both cases where Skarm doesn't die you get a clean switch in for Magneton, in which case normal Skarm dies without ever getting a spike up and YOLO Skarm is held to 1 spike.

Explode or Switch out on a predicted Hydro Pump
All Salamence sets die to Explosion, and the only one that can kill you first without a crit is Mixed Hydro Pump. If CB Mence flinches you with Rock Slide you have to switch out to avoid getting doubled/sack Solrock if no one else wants to take the hit.

Explode or Rock Slide
Rock slide has a 81.3% chance to kill 252 HP Zapdos on a hit and OHKO's all the other sets. Explode kills everything but is a significant loss if Zapdos puts a Sub up, making Rock Slide the safer option most of the time. Getting locked into Rock Slide can give an early game DD Tar or Curselax an opening you would rather they not get, something to think about if you have good intel on what they're bringing.

Killing Zapdos with Rock Slide and switching out is one of the few times where Solrock makes it out of the first few turns in one piece so I'll put this here. At 238 speed you outrun some things, but most importantly you can be a kill switch for a slow Suicune and a pivot into a predicted ground move from something slower than Solrock (Snorlax) or locked into CB like Aero.

Always switch out, there is nothing worth doing here, I've swapped EQ for Sleep Talk to use against Jynx and Smeargle because it does not even get a roll on OHKO'ing any Metagross SmogDex sets. Anything Sleep Talk procs will OHKO Smeargle and you have a 2/3 chance of pulling something that OHKO's Jynx, although it is extremely awkward if she misses the Lovely Kiss and you lock into Sleep Talk.


so uh... as a lead cb Metagross stand-in, only on a team that specifically wants a trapper + AgiliGross/MixedGross in the back, Solrock has at least... some value?

 

[ShinyTillDawn]

I saw that Swagger got banned from OU. One of the reasons was that it was uncompetitive to reduce every turn to a coin flip in a metagame with passive damage everywhere. Wouldn't Confuse Ray achieve the same effect, or is the lower passive damage inflicted form being confused without a +2 Attack boost okay for this metagame?

 

[YubelVT]

I saw that Swagger got banned from OU. One of the reasons was that it was uncompetitive to reduce every turn to a coin flip in a metagame with passive damage everywhere. Wouldn't Confuse Ray achieve the same effect, or is the lower passive damage inflicted form being confused without a +2 Attack boost okay for this metagame?

I think the difference between confuse ray and swagger in this instance is that confuse ray has way less pokemon that learn it compared to swagger being on basically everything lmao. I'm sure that confuse ray would be banned if it had good distribution as well

 

[DkKoba]

I think the difference between confuse ray and swagger in this instance is that confuse ray has way less pokemon that learn it compared to swagger being on basically everything lmao. I'm sure that confuse ray would be banned if it had good distribution as well

Also the combination of baton pass, sub, and inflicting confusion, or confusion and paralysis is moreso a problem. Although there could be a point where gengar could be used for degen confuse ray strategies, if it already hasn't been explored in the past.

 

[Colteor]

I have grown and changed in the past 2 years and no longer stand by that post, mew and latias are both obviously nonsense case closed.

 

[Olliert]

Is there anywhere we could collate common metagame sets (spreads in particular) which aren't on the smogdex (simply because it is outdated)? I don't mean gimmicks and stuff more just things that every good player knows exist but aren't in the smogdex. Similarly not asking for super secret/niche sets/spreads, just stuff that has clearly entered the metagame but zero to little mention on smogdex. I guess an example I could give is impish metagross - I feel like this is something most players would not be super surprised to see even if it's less common, but there's no mention of it on the smogdex at all. I'm not an expert so can't really think of a bunch of examples and maybe that isn't the best example but I use smogdex extensively for teambuilding and just throwing teams together and it's annoying when some stuff is just not there.

On that note is there any effort to update the RS smogdex?

 

[giraffefromholland]

Is there anywhere we could collate common metagame sets (spreads in particular) which aren't on the smogdex (simply because it is outdated)? I don't mean gimmicks and stuff more just things that every good player knows exist but aren't in the smogdex. Similarly not asking for super secret/niche sets/spreads, just stuff that has clearly entered the metagame but zero to little mention on smogdex. I guess an example I could give is impish metagross - I feel like this is something most players would not be super surprised to see even if it's less common, but there's no mention of it on the smogdex at all. I'm not an expert so can't really think of a bunch of examples and maybe that isn't the best example but I use smogdex extensively for teambuilding and just throwing teams together and it's annoying when some stuff is just not there.

On that note is there any effort to update the RS smogdex?

Smogdex is updated every so often. It's been updated multiple times in the past few years, to my knowledge. I don't think we see much Imp Meta, and in fact, I can only name one or two teams where I've seen it in the past while. I can recommend creating a box of custom sets and using the copy tool to select up to 6 pastes at a time. It may take a bit more time, but it's the best at you have at the moment

 

[vapicuno]

Is there anywhere we could collate common metagame sets (spreads in particular) which aren't on the smogdex (simply because it is outdated)? I don't mean gimmicks and stuff more just things that every good player knows exist but aren't in the smogdex. Similarly not asking for super secret/niche sets/spreads, just stuff that has clearly entered the metagame but zero to little mention on smogdex. I guess an example I could give is impish metagross - I feel like this is something most players would not be super surprised to see even if it's less common, but there's no mention of it on the smogdex at all. I'm not an expert so can't really think of a bunch of examples and maybe that isn't the best example but I use smogdex extensively for teambuilding and just throwing teams together and it's annoying when some stuff is just not there.

On that note is there any effort to update the RS smogdex?

From thelinearcurve https://pastebin.com/raw/ubq1NEVR

 

[Olliert]

Smogdex is updated every so often. It's been updated multiple times in the past few years, to my knowledge. I don't think we see much Imp Meta, and in fact, I can only name one or two teams where I've seen it in the past while. I can recommend creating a box of custom sets and using the copy tool to select up to 6 pastes at a time. It may take a bit more time, but it's the best at you have at the moment

It is good that it is updated I guess it just takes time.

Yeah I don't mind making custom sets/spreads myself but it's more when you're just trying to throw a team together and the recommended spread on smogdex looks like it's from 2007. Saving past spreads would be a good idea though yeah.

From thelinearcurve https://pastebin.com/raw/ubq1NEVR

Insane thanks. Should be more visible imo if he doesn't mind (or unless I'm dumb and just missed it).

BKC's video is also a good resource for sets that I just thought of: