Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

BigChu makes a good point about 'clown meta'. Smogon Metagames exist between a scale of "Serious" to "Unserious" that people subconsciously sort various tiers into - which is essentially a scale between OU and AG. Removal of species clause in 1v1 makes it lean more towards the unserious sides, as seeing 3 Regidrago will look more unserious no matter what.

But such a thing can have a positive impact, as the OM crowd that play things like AG, ZU and FFA can feel more inclined to check out 1v1 with loosened restrictions. There is a certain "percieved chaos" factor that can definetly make a metagame more enticing to play. Removal of species clause increases this percieved chaos factor.
 
“clown meta” u got people like 5luke running random shit all the time or just general shitmons usage across people it isnt detrimental to the tier in anyway. Anyways in a tour setting bringing 3 of the same mon is not going to be prevalent, bar random cteam/fish. You’re creating problems that don’t really exist
 
Hey, just wondering about peoples thoughts on a few mons, please feel free to respond no matter your level of skill or experience.

:ogerpon-hearthflame:
Oger-H stands out as a problem child in the recent meta. This is due to its insane versatility and tech potential, unrivalled by any other mon. She's hard to account for in the builder and at preview, let alone in game due to different sets having different counter play. Oger-H faces little opportunity cost due to keeping core mus via ivy cudgel and power whip. Oger-H is a lot easier and more realistic to tech and beat than archaludon which balances the mon. I believe ogerpon hearthflame, while teetering on the edge of healthiness is currently allowing for a fresh and creative meta so I personally would like to see it stay around a little longer.

:pecharunt:
Pecharunt is the epitome of an annoying 1v1 mon. An 100bp stab move and toxic in one moveslot opens pecharunt up to a wide range of options, mainly being different variants of stall with differing levels of reliance on poison puppeteer, however this is where the problems with this mon begin. Poison puppeteer confusion can make this mon very frustrating to play against, oftentimes making matchups unreliable on both sides. The countermeasure to this is really just running better counters as pecharunt isn't overly hard to beat or tech, but will expose any counters not well implemented. To me, pecharunt is more an annoyance than an actual threat, and while it has uncompetitive elements, they can be avoided easily which stops it being unhealthy.

:regidrago:
Regidrago fell into a slump during the arch meta, which it seems to have come out of after it's ban. Regidrago feels very strong now, especially with it matching up well against both prominent oger forms and beating common mid-tiers and glue mons. I've tried a few sets and saw most success with haban and bulky choice specs. Drago feels fine for now but I could definitely see this becoming an issue in the near future.
 
Hey, just wondering about peoples thoughts on a few mons, please feel free to respond no matter your level of skill or experience.

:ogerpon-hearthflame:
Oger-H stands out as a problem child in the recent meta. This is due to its insane versatility and tech potential, unrivalled by any other mon. She's hard to account for in the builder and at preview, let alone in game due to different sets having different counter play. Oger-H faces little opportunity cost due to keeping core mus via ivy cudgel and power whip. Oger-H is a lot easier and more realistic to tech and beat than archaludon which balances the mon. I believe ogerpon hearthflame, while teetering on the edge of healthiness is currently allowing for a fresh and creative meta so I personally would like to see it stay around a little longer.

:pecharunt:
Pecharunt is the epitome of an annoying 1v1 mon. An 100bp stab move and toxic in one moveslot opens pecharunt up to a wide range of options, mainly being different variants of stall with differing levels of reliance on poison puppeteer, however this is where the problems with this mon begin. Poison puppeteer confusion can make this mon very frustrating to play against, oftentimes making matchups unreliable on both sides. The countermeasure to this is really just running better counters as pecharunt isn't overly hard to beat or tech, but will expose any counters not well implemented. To me, pecharunt is more an annoyance than an actual threat, and while it has uncompetitive elements, they can be avoided easily which stops it being unhealthy.

:regidrago:
Regidrago fell into a slump during the arch meta, which it seems to have come out of after it's ban. Regidrago feels very strong now, especially with it matching up well against both prominent oger forms and beating common mid-tiers and glue mons. I've tried a few sets and saw most success with haban and bulky choice specs. Drago feels fine for now but I could definitely see this becoming an issue in the near future.
Pecharunt is an interesting mon. While the counters are obvious (steel, taunt, etc.) the mon can be extremely annoying to play against since it can cripple your team if you don't prepare for it. Malignant Chain is a very good move, and Toxic Puppeteer makes it very unfun to play against due to the confusion factor. It was held back in Archaludon meta but I definitely see it making a big resurgence

The frustration with pecharunt comes down to old lady luck. Will malignant chain poison? Will your mon hit itself? It can probably flip some matchups just off confusion chance. The use of parting short makes your attacks do nothing, and it has plenty bulk to go around in both ways. Even breaking it's air balloon gives it a crucial moment to toxic or PS.


At it's best, it's a mon you click Hyperspace Fury on, and at it's worst, it feels like an uncompetitive, unkillable beast.

Steels will inevitably rise as Drago takes back it's old throne, but we also have the strong threats of Hearthflame or Gouging to beat many of them. This gives pecharunt a happy little slot where it can toxic everything else with glee.
 

Felucia

Robot Empress
is a Forum Moderatoris a Battle Simulator Moderator
Moderator
3am sleepy felucia ramble post

With Archaludon gone the meta honestly feels like it's freed up a whole lot. I have the benefit of looking at this meta while still learning, and not being bound by preconceived knowledge what is/isn't "good" and from what I'm seeing the lack of :ogerpon_hearthflame: ogerpon counterplay might be being overstated somewhat. I would recommend not taking action on it until at the very least the latest stages of LT to give people plenty of time to adapt to their Arch teams not auto-beating oger and properly thinking about counterplay.

:pecharunt: Pecharunt and :iron_valiant: Iron Valiant if you ask me are 2 pokemon that fit in the same category of "toxic, annoying, but not broken" both have viable counters, but just feel really bad to play against for the non-counters. I think if we're going to worry about either being uncompetitive, we need to remember that as RTM said you shouldn't rely on unreliable counters when reliable ones exist, and only have yourself to blame if you don't. As for their fate in the metagame, I honestly couldn't care less whether they're banned or not. If they're banned, that's one annoyance off my annoyance list, otherwise I can just build around it, but I don't think these are justifiable if we're going by the book.

That brings me to :regidrago: Regidrago and :gouging_fire: Gouging Fire (yes I'm gonna group them together). When we were trying to ban Arch I argued that the abundance of powerful dragon types limits teambuilding to practically require a Fairy or Steel on most teams. There are 2 mons running around right now that are a cut above the rest when it comes to displaying those symptoms. First there's Regidrago, the mon with so much raw power that practically its only counters are Fairy and Steel types. The arguments for not banning it seem to come down to "There are plenty steel and fairy types to make it balanced" but I want to really start talking about the fact that the existence of Drago counters does not mean it's not overcentralising. Drago more than any mon in SV right now warps the metagame into a certain format and forces the presence of both drago counters and drago counters counters, and severely hinders building expression and metagame diversity.

I lied I'm not grouping them together: :gouging_fire: Gouging Fire is on the other side of the coin, its fire typing enables it to super-effectively hit steel types and not receive super effective damage from fairy types. In a metagame dominated by dragon types, this puts gouging at an advantage in how it fits into the centralised Regidrago meta. I can't guarantee it'll be banworthy if Drago is removed, but as of now it's contributing to the propagation of a centralised metagame and team archetype that is difficult for me to get on board with.
 
:regidrago:

I've talked about Regidrago before, many others have talked about Drago, but this stupid orb thing needs to go. Now there are three main things a Pokemon or anything else can be to be considered banworthy. I'll cover them here.

Is Regidrago Uncompetitive: No

Starting out with the easiest one, besides some matchups coming down to Scale Shot hits, Regidrago isn't uncompetitive. Not much else to say about this point.

Is Regidrago Unhealthy: Yes

Now you can debate this but Regidrago's strain on the metagame is something that has been talked about so much. As you know, the only answers to Regidrago are Fairies, a few steels (Iron Crown, Metagross, Registeel, Corv for the most part), and a couple misc. mons like Unnerve Haxorus, Lando-T with a very specific set, and Ursaluna with a very specific set. So basically it forces a Dragon Fairy Steel metagame, and while these types would still be strong without Drago, it is extremely difficult to build teams without them due to it. This also contributes to Pokemon like Hearthflame and Gouging's success (not that they'd be bad without Drago), since they naturally thrive when you're forced to have a Steel or Fairy on 95% of teams.

Is Regidrago Broken: Arguably Yes

Now this ultimately depends on your definition of broken. I believe it is broken since it just beats too much, but many consider it not broken since Fairies shut it down so hard. I will say we've had Pokemon that were deemed broken despite hard losing to a type (Genesect comes to mind), and the fact that the vast majority of non fairy answers have to run very specific sets to be reliable really shows the hold Drago has on the metagame.


I hope we get a Regidrago suspect, as was previously promised, since the community has shown that it is wanted. Thank you.

:dwebble: Murm out :nacli:
 
Gonna drop my thoughts as someone who learned the meta while laddering for lt since it's survey season

:regidrago:
This guy is really good, shocker. The generational shift lost us the tapus, kiss, aroma, ferro, cele, and aggron in exchange for val, crown, and enam, which has made building feel a little more restricting. Lando-t, ursaluna, and other non-fairy/steel checks are usually serviceable but drago has ways to get around them and I've found them really hard to rely on. A bunch of new targets on top of the limited counterplay make sets like specs and scarf feel really good in a way that they don't in ss, though personally my favorite set is super bulky haban dd. Drago is probably my top pick for a potential suspect, and like murm said we were promised one.

:ogerpon_hearthflame:
Meh. Very versatile obviously but from anecdotal experience it felt like its usage in lt dropped off a cliff after the first cycle. It's unpredictability is easily its most valuable trait but in a ladder environment it doesn't really get to shine as much. I feel like the matchup variation between sets is very large and caused me to lose a lot of matches I felt like I shouldn't have, but I'll wait until playoffs to give a more developed opinion because I'm sure it'll be better there. Additionally, I think :ogerpon-wellspring: should be in the same tier as it. It trades metagross and goodra-h for reliable prim and lando matchups, and is much better into gouging without having to run rock tomb. Encore lets it keep winning mus into fatter steel types because of ivy cudgel's crit rate too. It doesn't seem so much worse than hearthflame that it deserves to be a tier lower, but I'd really be more in favor of dropping hearth to A+ over raising wellspring to S.

:gouging_fire:
Don't agree with S tier gouging, I was surprised it was even on the survey. It has good stats and typing but nothing overwhelming, it can be surprisingly bulky but there's an obvious cost in power, and it doesn't have any really ridiculous tools. It feels like it lacks the ability to tech that made previous top mons like kiss and zardx earn their spot. It's a very honest mon and I don't see anything pushing it to be problematic.

:ursaluna:
Super cracked, insanely strong and insanely bulky. One of the more consistent non-fairy/steel drago answers but can still get owned. Surprising set versatility on top of sheer stats lets it cover huge swathes of the meta which makes it very nice to build with. It's really the strong, bulky mon holding the tier together that gouging fire wishes it was.

:pecharunt:
Current 1v1 discourse mon, genuinely do not see the problem with this guy. I think pecharunt is a very good mon but it's held back from being broken by its movepool of 4. It's really one of the most straightforward mons in the tier, and to echo rtm, it only feels bad to play against when you don't bring good counters, and pecharunt's extreme linearity makes it very easy to find good counters. Most things with taunt, most steels, poisons, psychics, grounds, ghosts, and darks, anything with rest and most things with encore or trick will pretty easily beat pecha. I don't see the issue with malignant chain either, in an overwhelming majority of cases it will only speed up a winning mu with a poison or at best allow pecha to skip having to win a 50/50. There is only a 16% chance pecharunt will steal your turn from you by clicking malignant chain, which is about a quarter as effective as togekiss, a mon with less consistent counterplay than pecha due to it actually having a movepool. I think the argument of "run better counters" is fine here, because they are both abundant and very good, it's not like we're digging into zu-level mons because soundproof bastiodon is the only thing that wins.

Finally, just wanna drop a list of mons that I had a lot of success with laddering that aren't reflected well (imo) on the vr.
-:heatran:
-:sneasler:
-:rillaboom:
-:moltres-galar:
-:enamorus:
-:kyurem:
-:registeel:
-:salazzle:
-:corviknight:
Should all go up a half tier or more

I think sv is in a really fun spot post-arch, and I'm genuinely enjoying it more than I thought I would. I think drago is annoying yeah, but I've never liked having to play a game where it's present so it's nothing new. I'm excited to try new stuff in lt playoffs. -Blanched out
 
Last edited:

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 4)

Top