Past Generations C&C Discussion Thread

Okay so, I'm not sure if this post is going to be good enough, but I felt it necessary:

this Happiny Gen 4 LC analysis is bad

It's old, firstly, so it's questionable about accuracy. But that isn't the main issue. The main issue is that it's this very long fanfic about fat-shaming a Pocket Monster (trademark), givinf random Pokemon stereotypical mental illnesses and random psycho-analysis about how the tiers' Pokemon would work as like... a community? It feels unhelpful, unfunny, and I've never found someone who doesn't find it disturbing.

I'm not saying get rid of all of it, but we could probably remove some parts at least or take its information at the time and not make it *this*.

If you've never read it before, here's an excerpt:

"But, although she hated Bronzor oh so much, she could not bear to hurt him. You see, Happiny loved Bronzor, once upon a time. She used to watch him from the bushes as he Recycled trash; as he showered himself with his static Rain Dance; as he polished his lustrous coat. She used to smell him; fondle him while he slept; and stand in front of him intentionally so as to feel his soft breath brush against the nape of her nonexistent neck. One day, Happiny mustered enough courage to ask Bronzor to the Poke Ball that was held every winter, and to her unending joy, he said yes. However, to her shock, on the day of the dance, Happiny was left alone; Bronzor had eloped with Buneary to Cancun."

This part is especially weird because this awful fanfic-esque page both has this weird... sexual? shit along with "oh they are children on a playground"

I just think this is such a weird one and unlike other joke articles, doesn't Hit
 
Who thought that having bad pedophilic fanfic in the Strategy Dex was a good idea? Who do you think would want to read a story about children on a playground sexually fondling each other? It is not even funny or original because it is just about a bunch of children having sexual affairs. All that this story manages to be is boring and disturbing. No wonder that rumors go around about Smogon being governed by pedophiles if you put shit like this in the Dex.

I normally love the joke entries for bad Pokémon and humor is subjective, but I think that pedophilia is better left out of the Strategy Dex.
 
Gulpin is an interesting case: it's been blacklisted for analysis reservation in XY and SM and I honestly don't understand the reasoning behind this decision.

The earliest mention of a reasoning I could dig up was this from sparktrain:

sparktrain said:
Gulpin is on the list because it's heavily outclassed by other Sticky Hold users and Poison-types. Trubbish[...]is a much better choice overall, as it can restore its own Berry Juice with Recycle, can set Spikes or Toxic Spikes to capitalize on forced switches, has access to Drain Punch, and has a better Speed stat, all of which give it an actually usable niche in the metagame. As a wall with Eviolite + Pain Split, Gulpin is outclassed by Koffing, which has great physical bulk and Will-O-Wisp to cripple physical attackers and wear stuff down, and isn't easily trapped and eliminated by Diglett thanks to Levitate. Even if Gulpin tries running an offensive set, or like, a boosting set with Stockpile or Curse, you're better off with Grimer, which has a much better Attack stat, as well as comparable bulk and coverage options to work with. Grimer itself is pretty mediocre anyway; there are straight-up better offensive Poison-types to choose from, such as Gastly, Skrelp, and Croagunk, which offer more immediate power, secondary STAB, and several other advantages over Gulpin.
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Now, sparktrain is onto something here: Gulpin is entirely outclassed by Trubbish and Grimer, with its only notable niche at a glance being its access to a wide special movepool and Yawn. This mon sucks ass.

But I don't really understand why simply being outclassed is enough to make Gulpin blacklisted, in a category among nigh unusable Pokemon like Combee, Magikarp and Beldum. Gulpin is perfectly usable; you're just better off with other options. And that describes like 60% of the LC mons that DO have analyses in the dex.

For example: in SM LC, why use Bonsly if it's outclassed by Geodude who in of itself is outclassed by Onix?:
Bonsly is overwhelmingly outclassed in its role as a Stealth Rock user. It is utterly outclassed by Geodude, which boasts a better typing, better Speed, and the ability to viably run an Adamant nature, and Onix mostly outclasses Geodude thanks to its higher Speed and much higher versatility.
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Don't know, but Bonsly DOES have an analysis up on the site.

Or Nidoran-F, who's outclassed by literally every Toxic Spikes user in the metagame and whose analysis even mentions that it's bad?
Although it has access to Toxic Spikes, Nidoran-F is entirely outclassed as a defensive Toxic Spikes setter by Mareanie and Koffing, which boast better bulk. Other Poison-type Pokemon such as Foongus and Alolan Grimer also outclass it defensively and offensively as well. As such, Nidoran-F is bad and shouldn't be used.
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No idea, but Nidoran-F also has an analysis up on the site.

Or Oshawott, who's outclassed by every offensive Water-type in the metagame?
As a pure Water-type in LC, Oshawott is outclassed in all aspects. Staryu is a better special attacker due to it being faster and having more coverage, and Corphish is a better physical attacker because it has Adaptability. Defensively, Oshawott is unable to compete against the likes of Frillish and Mareanie due to their reliable recovery and secondary typings, which gives them more resistances. These Pokemon leave little room for Oshawott to carve a niche in the Little Cup Metagame.
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The list goes on and on, I don't exactly see why Gulpin belongs on the blacklist while stuff like these are perfectly fine to get short analyses detailing why you shouldn't use it. I think Gulpin should be taken off the blacklist and be available for mini analysis reservation for SM LC just for the sake of completion but I do understand that writing an analysis for an unviable shitmon is the lowest of the lowest priorities for the oldgens LC council and if this isn't feasible, I think Gulpin should be removed from the reservation blacklist for future gens (though that latter suggestion may be better brought up to the current LC council).

If anyone's able to provide a more detailed explanation as to why Gulpin is on the blacklist while the others I've listed aren't though, I'd greatly appreciate it! Thank you.

Gulpin deez nuts.
gulpin.gif
 
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I already spoke with Earthworm, but they said I should post the changes I had in mind for how analyses are/could be done here. Essentially, I want to propose a new section in analyses that would allow for replays to be added (of course these would have to include the Pokémon of their respective analyses). These replays would reinforce concepts previously stated in the article, specifically team building and counter play—what to consider when playing against and with the Pokémon, and overall, the replays would assist players in adjusting to the tier. I don’t intend for this to be a requirement, since that would mean that all previous analyses would have to be redone—rather, I had hoped it would just be an optional section. If it is included, it would also help with diversifying and improving how information is presented in analyses. For example, when explaining an intricate situation in an analysis, one could say: “See replay 2 for an example of this interaction/set/counter/etc.”
 
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SweetPatata said:
I already spoke with Earthworm, but they said I should post the changes I had in mind for how analyses are/could be done here. Essentially, I want to propose a new section in analyses that would allow for replays to be added (of course these would have to include the Pokémon of their respective analyses). These replays would reinforce concepts previously stated in the article, specifically team building and counter play—what to consider when playing against and with the Pokémon—, and overall, the replays would assist players in adjusting to the tier. I don’t intend for this to be a requirement, since that would mean that all previous analyses would have to be redone—rather, I had hoped it would just be an optional section. If it is included, it would also help with diversifying and improving how information is presented in analyses. For example, when explaining an intricate situation in an analysis, one could say: “See replay 2 for an example of this interaction/set/counter/etc.”
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This is a nice idea that extends from what's already done in media spotlights. I'll bring it up to the rest in C&C. Thanks!
 
hey I found an error with the Girafarig analysis for XY PU

Under the "Moves" section
"...solid STAB moves; Psychic hits special walls such as Roselia and Clefairy harder than Psychic, and Hyper Voice..."

pretty sure it's meant to say Psyshock, as per the moveset.

*They fixed the error.
 
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I recently noticed that the exceptions to the Z-Move base power rule are all incorrect in their SM descriptions. For example, Gear Grind's page is listed as such:

"Hits twice. If the first hit breaks the target's substitute, it will take damage for the second hit.
Z-Move Base Power: 100 "

The Z-Move base power should be 180.

The following moves currently have inaccurate Z-Move base powers. The accurate base powers for their Z-moves are listed below, right next to their names.

Core Enforcer: 140
Fissure: 180
Flying Press: 170
Gear Grind: 180
Guillotine: 180
Hex: 160
Horn Drill: 180
Mega Drain: 120
Sheer Cold: 180
Struggle: 1
Weather Ball: 160
V-Create: 220
 
Just a small correction:
https://www.smogon.com/dex/dp/pokemon/azelf/
Set Details (choice band)

(.....)Another choice is make Azelf even more bulky with 8 HP / 224 Atk / 228 SpD / 56 Spe with a Jolly nature that survives Choice Specs Starmie Hydro Pump while still outspeeding Roserade. This spread still OHKOes Heatran and non physically bulky Bronzong, but only has a 6.3% chance to OHKO maximum HP Metagross with Explosion.

That ev spread is suboptimal and should be changed because is runing 6 evs more than allowed and a better ev spread exists with Adamant nature:

EVs: 8 HP / 108 Atk / 228 SpD / 164 Spe
Adamant Nature

You can run 168 Spe but you still outspeed Roserade with 164 spe.
 
latios777 said:
Just a small correction:
https://www.smogon.com/dex/dp/pokemon/azelf/
Set Details (choice band)

(.....)Another choice is make Azelf even more bulky with 8 HP / 224 Atk / 228 SpD / 56 Spe with a Jolly nature that survives Choice Specs Starmie Hydro Pump while still outspeeding Roserade. This spread still OHKOes Heatran and non physically bulky Bronzong, but only has a 6.3% chance to OHKO maximum HP Metagross with Explosion.

That ev spread is suboptimal and should be changed because is runing 6 evs more than allowed and a better ev spread exists with Adamant nature:

EVs: 8 HP / 108 Atk / 228 SpD / 164 Spe
Adamant Nature

You can run 168 Spe but you still outspeed Roserade with 164 spe.
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I fixed this, thanks for pointing it out!
 
There's no mention of SS anywhere in this forum - are there any plans to have SS analyses still written and updated now? If anything, SS is arguably the most needing of updates and analyses as many are outdated or simply nonexistent
 
pulsar512b said:
There's no mention of SS anywhere in this forum - are there any plans to have SS analyses still written and updated now? If anything, SS is arguably the most needing of updates and analyses as many are outdated or simply nonexistent
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a lot of the SS subforums still exist and fall under the jurisdiction of whatever QC team they had at the time. You can literally go to the SS OU C&C subforum and see for yourself.
 
Lasen said:
a lot of the SS subforums still exist and fall under the jurisdiction of whatever QC team they had at the time. You can literally go to the SS OU C&C subforum and see for yourself.
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oops sorry i just didnt see that! thank you, sorry for the bother :)
 
I was reading through some of the BW RU analyses and I noticed that a lot of them mention sleep moves in some way or another despite them being banned. For example, Magmortar's lone suggested set and all three of Primeape's suggested sets have Vital Spirit as an ability, both of Amoonguss's suggested sets have Spore, and both of Lilligant's suggested sets as well as both of Tangrowth's suggested sets have Sleep Powder.
 
https://www.smogon.com/dex/rs/pokemon/farfetchd/

Not a good mon, but the second set run 252 evs in attack and adamant nature with ....no physical moves.

I sugest this evs:

Farfetch’d @ Leftovers
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 248 HP / 136 Def / 124 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Attract
- Swords Dance
- Agility
- Baton Pass


Same speed (205) and more bulk. But honestly, in the evs (under other options) the analysis say that you only need 198 speed so...

Farfetch’d @ Leftovers
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 248 HP / 124 Def / 40 SpD / 96 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Attract
- Swords Dance
- Agility
- Baton Pass

This better then (hits 198 speed). Max HP and rest in defenses, no specific calcs involved because is Farfetch'd and can be changed.
Only the evs in speed are non-negotiable though.
 
Can sharpedo get a bw ou analysis? It has a tiny but relevant niche as a late game cleaner on rain teams thanks to speed boost, it’s water stab and the ability to deal with common rain checks like latios, Starmie, and jellicent with to stab crunch.
 
lemonademaker said:
Can sharpedo get a bw ou analysis? It has a tiny but relevant niche as a late game cleaner on rain teams thanks to speed boost, it’s water stab and the ability to deal with common rain checks like latios, Starmie, and jellicent with to stab crunch.
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i think theres alr one on the forum
 
Lasen said:
a lot of the SS subforums still exist and fall under the jurisdiction of whatever QC team they had at the time. You can literally go to the SS OU C&C subforum and see for yourself.
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said forums no longer exist, whats up w ss/when will a qc team be established again/when will it be possible to write for those
 
pulsar512b said:
said forums no longer exist, whats up w ss/when will a qc team be established again/when will it be possible to write for those
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this is something in the works atm, expect something reasonably soon. (Can’t give an exact date right now but we are working on establishing stuff)
 
There's a mistake on Togekiss DPP OU analysis. The "Defensive Nasty Plot" set says you can run Roost or Soft-Boiled and it says

"The choice between Roost and Soft-Boiled is a matter of what Togekiss needs to check. Roost removes Togekiss’s weakness to Electric-, Rock-, and Ice-type moves, but takes away its immunity to Ground-type moves, gives it a weakness to Fighting, and removes its resistances to Grass- and Bug-type moves for one turn. Soft-boiled maintains its Fighting neutrality,"

However it is impossible for Togekiss to run Nasty Plot plus Soft-Boiled

togekiss.png
 
Gen 3 OU Zapdos
https://www.smogon.com/dex/rs/pokemon/zapdos/
As a defensive tank, Zapdos boasts being the only specially bulky Spikes-immune Pokemon
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Rest Zapdos is notable as the only common specially bulky Spikes-immune Pokemon
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This seems a bit hyperbolic: Gyarados is another specially bulky Rest user immune to spikes, though it has a 4x weakness; other than the typing of Gengar & Claydol, they can also be specially bulky. Maybe just say it has the best defensive typing among common specially bulky Pokemon.
 
Gen 4 OU Gyarados, specifically the Defensive RestTalk set:

Rest helps Gyarados answer foes trying to deal with it through status, such as defensive Jirachi, various Toxic users such as Quagsire, and Will-O-Wisp Heatran. Waterfall has no immunities and is Gyarados's most reliable attack.
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I feel like referencing Quagsire and then immediately stating that Waterfall has no immunities isn't a good idea since Quagsire runs Water Absorb and is technically immune to Waterfall. I think it could be reworded as so:

Rest helps Gyarados answer foes trying to deal with it through status, such as defensive Jirachi, Will-O-Wisp Heatran, and various Pokemon carrying Toxic. Outside of Pokemon with the Water Absorb ability, Waterfall has no immunities and is Gyarados's most reliable attack.
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Update - After reading the Quagsire dex entry, I seem to have found an issue there as well:

These traits allow it to be one of the few hard counters to all variants of Starmie (which is no easy feat) while still faring decently well against Pokemon such as Metagross and Tyranitar.
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I wouldn't say that Quagisre is a hard counter to all variants of Starmie since Grass Knot is a recommended move on some Starmie sets which Quagsire is 4x weak to. It could be reworded as so:

These traits allow it to be one of the few hard counters to Starmie outside of variants that run Grass Knot while still faring decently well against Pokemon such as Metagross and Tyranitar.
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