BH Balanced Hackmons

[MAMP]

I am not in favour of any tiering action against paralysis. I feel that paralysis's strength as a speed control and breaking tool is centralising but not to an unhealthy degree. There is a wide range of effective counterplay to paralysis that can fit onto any sort of team, and playing around that as the paralysis user requires a degree of thought and planning: it isn't skilless. Paralysis focused teams are very popular because they're effective and easy to build, but I feel that there are plenty of valid structures that aren't centred around paralysis.

I think it is good when offensive threats have a wide range of tools to create progress in different ways against different opponents. I think this leads to interesting, varied gameplay, and necessitates skillful teambuilding. A ban on paralysis creates a hole in this regard, and removes a method by which cool Pokemon like Palkia, Groudon, and Ho-oh can threaten things. I think that makes Pokemon like these less fun, and less skillful to build and play with and against.

A Nuzzle ban nerfs hazard setters by buffing Magic Bounce. It becomes far more difficult for Pokemon like PH Regigigas and PH Xerneas to set hazards against bulky Magic Bouncers. The hazard metagame is one of the most interesting parts of BH to me, and I think it's in a good place at the moment. I'm worried that a Nuzzle ban would upset the balance and create more hazardless games, which aren't as fun or as complex to navigate.

To me, the level of RNG that paralysis introduces into games is borderline but reasonable. I know I have a higher tolerance for randomness in Pokemon than most, so this might be a minority opinion.

If the community feels that something has to be done about paralysis, banning Nuzzle is the best option. This would keep the healthy aspects of paralysis around but would remove some of the stronger spreaders (RegenVest users) and make Magic Bounce more effective as counterplay. The combination of Nuzzle + Spikes on PH users is the form of paralysis that feels closest to being overpowered to me, and a Nuzzle ban would nerf that strategy considerably. I'm not convinced that this ban is necessary or that it would ultimately be an improvement to the metagame.

 

[XxLazzerpenguinxX]

Hello friends, I hate to derail our conversation on Paralysis; but I would like to very briefly discuss belly drum. Belly Drum has been in the back of some people's mind for a while, and it's brokenness has been of debate.

I recently built this team: https://pokepast.es/6e560280077c4d21 which feels like nearly optimized Belly drum HO.

The basic idea of the team is that with multiple priority sweepers - each relatively bulky, one of them should generally be able to win and find opportunities to drum. This would generally make beating a solid team with imposter difficult. Therefore, unburden belly drum was included as well. This would generally have problems with prankster, which is where Zyg-C comes in and is able to final gambit it after drum on the incoming haze. The only issue this team has is vs. teams with prankster giratina and imposter.

I think what sets it apart from other HO's is the imposter proofing of it. A very fast dazzling pokemon really enable belly drum stacking since it's able to improof nearly every single belly drum sets - and multiple times.

How do you build belly drum HO, and how would you go about improving this team. I'd love to hear your thoughts!

 

[Career Ended]

I personally think paralysis is a healthy tool in any metagame to help limit fast speedy threats with limited offensive counterplay. While I do think some forms of paralysis inducing are balanced, I’m of the opinion that nuzzle in itself has not enough counteplay in the current BH metagame and I would support a ban of the move nuzzle or in the case of a suspect test I would vote ban. Nuzzle is simply TOO good at spreading yellow magic. Being an attack instead of a status move means nuzzle beats taunt users and magic bounce whereas other para inducing moves would not. Now this would be okay if there was other sufficient counterplay to nuzzle in BH but there simply is not. The other counterplay is all anti-status inducing or requires an immunity, either through a ground or an electric type. While toxic orb poison heal is a very prevalent status absorbing strategy in BH, other strategies such as flame orb magic guard and comatose are quite hit or miss and inconsistent when not brought without the proper support. The list of viable electric types in BH is very short with basically only zekrom and zeraora having a niche (no pikachu doesn’t count because its always imp).That leaves us with the ground types, which given are stronger with Zyg-c and groudon seeing a bunch of tournament play as well as garchomp and even maybe lando-t having small niches. Thats about all there is bar running jungle healing on your pokemon or somehow fitting aromatherapy/heal bell somewhere on your team, which is very hard to justify on offensive progress making pokemon as they would want to carry all of their setup, spike setting, recovery, stab and/or coverage options (including nuzzle as a coverage option too lol, its literally so splasha le) and very hard on progress preventing pokemon who would want moves such as worry seed / entrain / core, haze / topsy, defog / rapid spin or any myriad of utility options which in most circumstances would be more useful then “un para ing” their teammates. Because of these limited options, putting nuzzle on your progress makers is very low risk, high reward as if your pokemon beats the ground types / can threaten them or poison heal pokemon out, __they are guaranteed to paralyze something.

edit: wrote this before sevag dropped nuzzle suspect lets gooo

 

[stephen78548]

if the suspect test wasnt so annoying i would participate but im a very anxious person and it just is not helpful with the amount of stress it needs lol. So i might as well do a post and hopefully convince people of my stance on para.

TLDR
ban Glance

Cons

I feel its a little too good in its current state if Glance was banned it might have more counter-play than it does in its current state as all bulky grounds die to a very common move. And that makes it hard to switch in especially if they have Glance and Nuzzle on the same set. it gets real overwhelming when your team is all para'd (never had that problem since ive ran Heal bell since my very first set lol, we dont talk about cram format tho....) as ive been testing a new team i see how unfair it is just paralyzing the enemy team and them having little to no chance to come back feels super unhealthy in its current state HOWEVER if Glance was banned it would be much more manageable. even so the format might become ultra bulky if every team runs 3-4 PH mons. A format where most of the team is PH does not sound fun nor enjoyable.
"What makes it Balanced?
The removal of abilities, moves or Pokemon that focus the meta only around their use." i would say nuzzle is there rn

Pros

If para was removed from the format threats like Plakia, Eternatus, Xern, Ho-oh would have little counter play and it might end up making the format worse than what it was before. in this case Nuzzle is ultimately healthy for the format as even if the format becomes ultra bulky as mentioned above Eternatus cant be PH, Palkia would still die to core, Ho-oh is massively afraid of pebbles, and Xern well idk GL PH Xern is already annoying as it can live a hit and para Eternatus. This being said Nuzzle has kept the format in check and is really healthy for that fact alone.

Conclusion

This leaves us at a cross roads ban para and let the format be HO, or leave Para and let the format evolve into such a way were para is no longer a problem. im not in favor of either i think the most healthy meta game call would be the banning of Glance as this allows bulky ground to exist more easily act as more consistent ho-oh checks and allows for a meta game of para control to a less potent degree

 

[Negative Charge]

I think nuzzle plays an important part in speed control and I do not want to see it go. RNG is a fundamental part of the game (Pokémon would be really boring without it) and I believe that playing for full paras is a legitimate strategy to advance the game state. There are numerous options to deal with para/nuzzle, I don't think saying they are "unoptimal" is really fair given that such a large plurality (majority?) of people view these elements as meta warping. Prepare for the things you're likely to see, no?

 

[Storm Eagle]

I think we'd have to look at hypothetical scenario like this, for example, if we were to allow Bolt Beak:

• Ban Nuzzle
• Free Bolt Beak and Ban Glacial Lance
• Free DGZ

This brings up a point I've wanted to bring up regarding this current suspect. I have a concern I must share. If this suspect were to result in a ban, how would the release of Scarlet and Violet affect tiering for Gen 8 BH? I would like to know the official stance on this, as I feel it is warranted for this community. I brought it up privately, but did not get a concrete answer. Should Nuzzle get banned, I believe that would result in a domino effect of other ban and unban discussions happening. For example, one of the main reasons Nuzzle is even being suspected is because of how it impacts two of the strongest pokemon in the meta, Zamazenta-Crowned and Eternatus. I've had a personal belief that these two pokemon are worth keeping an eye on, and may be too strongly centralizing. I could go more in depth on those two pokemon, but I feel that is warranted later on in another post. Nuzzle keeps these two pokemon in check and banning Nuzzle could lead to more suspects down the line.

But that's the thing. Will we get more suspects? I don't believe this suspect will be the final BH8 suspect, and I don't think anyone realistically believes that either. But the current meta is the most balanced it has been since the start of the generation. With the banning of Nuzzle? I'm not so sure. And if we were to proceed with a ban and the result is an unstable metagame which vastly favors the two pokemon I mentioned, only to have the metagame be "locked" and no further action taken, then I will end up voting DNB should I get reqs. I'm well aware it's a poor viewpoint, and that's not a reason to vote DNB, but I am also aware of the fact that the Gen 7 BH council was held up for quite a long time before being allowed to hold further suspects.

It's something that's been on my mind which I want to bring up given how late in the generation it is. I would like to apologize if this actually isn't relevant after all, but I don't want to make plans for this metagame's future then have them not come to fruition.

As for Nuzzle itself, I have supported its banning, but after reading the recent forum posts, I am not so sure. I would need more time to think on it before commenting further and voting as well. But I can say one thing for certain: I do not believe banning Nuzzle would result in a perfectly balanced metagame all on its own. I have my concerns regarding Zamazenta-C and Eternatus, but I did not bring them up until this point because I was not fully confident in my ability to speak about the meta as a whole.

 

[Chinchou1984]

Why is gorilla tactics banned? i wanted a gorilla tactics+choice scarf set

you could just ban using gorilla tactics and choice band if that was the issue

 

[Tea Guzzler]

Why is gorilla tactics banned? i wanted a gorilla tactics+choice scarf set

you could just ban using gorilla tactics and choice band if that was the issue

The G-Tactics ban announcement can be found here, but to keep it simple, the free choice band on every attack lead to physical attackers having a borderline unfair amount of damage potential, which has only been augmented in the current meta with heavy physical nukes like Kyurem-Black and Groudon being introduced to the meta, as well as moves like Bolt Strike, Precipice Blades, Wicked Blow and Glacial Lance. GTactics + Scarf would still lead to an astonishing level of killpower that makes physical mons overbearing given the moves, even despite Scarf's viability being low (and not forgetting you can still run other damage boosting items to replicate Band). Having Fur Coat mandated on every team to deal with GTactics would not be healthy for the meta, thus that's why it's banned.

In addition, Smogon tends to avoid "complex bans" (bans that do not outright remove something but rather restrict it's access, such as barring GTactics + Band) which is why (no Band + Tactics but otherwise free Tactics) GTactics would never happen.

 

[stephen78548]

(I did not know how to make the little sprites so it links you to Tea's team LOL)

Intro

OK I feel like its time to release the team, I was able to get to 1400s in a single sitting, and was able to get to 1500s in a few days. A better player could no doubt take it higher. I call it Cram format Lite. it turns out that chipping your ops health 30% every time they want to attack is still really good. So without further adieu lets talk about it. the team is balanced with the option of turning into stall if it needs too. regardless the team is cram control

Pros

what this team does well at is the same thing that every regixern core does well and thats braking down teams, however with cram it now allows you to win the war of attrition more easily 30% adds up quickly. the defense drop is also really good when paired with Zama-c as it loves defense drops already. this leads to early snowballs and if the game heads to the late game you've gathered so much value from its chip in gulp missile+rocky helmet, and stealth rocks. This team can end things in 30 turns or 300 turns with the right set up and plays.

Cons

where this team fails is that it isnt as forgiving as most teams and if you mess up turn 2 it might be the reason you lose. this team requires a very close attention to current board states moves your opponent has and requires a lot of the player. This team loses to drum spam teams (or at the very least i havent found out how to beat XxsavagexX's team). this team requires very close predictions but a bad one wont lose you the game out right you just might end up losing cram to early. this team needs para,with nuzzle possibly getting the hammer it would affect its performance.

How to Use the Team

I like to lead Zama-c to get a para absorb some damage then U-turn out of there, switch to the prank gard and parting shot into cram to eat an attack. that's the standard play, but there's about 50 other lines depending on the situation in all honesty. You want to bring cram out ASP to start the ship game. set rocks then dip. Use xern and regi to destroy threats. Use cram and zama-c to take down walls that threaten this game plan. The imp counters to zama-c and ho-oh are both Gard. Xerns impcounter is Zama-c nuzzle into Gard to parting shot whittle. Cram's impcounter is cram

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1593144833-jw3qd3asnghdqq9pp6wybzg4k9rpacgpw (war of attrition match)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1593411930-74ik1oca5vh6cadlvh6psyoer0r0y39pw (cram control match)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1594531237-z1mh9qibm7trqbj6f79ni0rzun2jh6tpw (para being unfair LOL)

The Team

-flip turn
-strength sap
-stealth rocks
-taunt/encore

-boomburst
-rapid spin
-strength sap
-parting shot/volt switch/diamond storm/v-create

-facade
-dragon dance
-spectral thief
-thunderous kick

-anchorshot
-thunderous kick
-nuzzle
-u-turn

-v-create
-nuzzle
-recover/shore-up/ect
-parting shot/spikes

-haze
-shore-up/recover/ect
-heal bell
-parting shot

Team Link
https://pokepast.es/bf4f93bedf0ac656

 

[Tea Guzzler]

feel like this has been a long time coming, and talking about something to do with tiering action during a suspect isn't ideal, but i thought i'd give my piece on something that i honestly think is more problematic than anything currently in the tier

Belly Drum ​

simply put: i don't think this move is balanced. this is for a number of reasons.

• first off, instant +6 (which is actually +12 so you can get topsied and still go back to +6 on the second drum) should be a red flag in and of itself, especially given the fact that this boosts all of the god moves that people enjoy complaining about (rend, v-create, glance, etc) and the fact that we're in BH so everything is still bulky as shit, even when injured by the HP reduction.
• second, the counterplay against drum tends to be both poor and dependent on the drum matchup, which is made worse by the fact that the 2 main forms of drum (unburden and -ate/triage) share completely independent forms of counterplay, not to mention the variation between these such as giratina beating triage kart but not -atespeeds, unaware/fc "answering" unburdens except dusk mane / kartana, you get the idea. i think, for it's power and the lack of options against it that can easily be fit on the average team (unaware is piss poor and having fc on every team is highly restricting + still a drummer fish), drum is an issue (hell, even getting a bad prank matchup, which is supposed to be the drum counter, can just be an L).
• furthermore, the reasons for not wanting it gone being "just don't let it drum" is unrealistic in the same sense that "oh just don't get para'd" is, and there really isn't anyone i've spoke to who actively thinks drum is a healthy addition to the tier / has any other arguments for keeping drum free. as stated above counterplay is also dependent on the drummer which, due to the sheer amount of things that can drum, isn't very good

unless you have the matchup win you're also going to struggle a lot against dedicated drumspam + good player just because you probably lack the tools to be as secure as you'd like and can get forced into a flowcharted sequence of responses pretty reliably. there's a good deal of teams that just have an unwinnable drum MU because they don't hard prep for it (in spite of said teams being very good otherwise) which isn't fun either.

(also, sidenote: i now realise the mistake i said here in saying that beak would be unproblematic in current meta, keep this shit gone (even before loser's post i was sat there thinking "what mug wrote this? oh yeah"))

tl;dr - drum is not ok why are we only realising this 2 and a half years on

 

[VannAccessible]

feel like this has been a long time coming, and talking about something to do with tiering action during a suspect isn't ideal, but i thought i'd give my piece on something that i honestly think is more problematic than anything currently in the tier

Belly Drum ​

View attachment 430817
simply put: i don't think this move is balanced. this is for a number of reasons.

• first off, instant +6 (which is actually +12 so you can get topsied and still go back to +6 on the second drum) should be a red flag in and of itself, especially given the fact that this boosts all of the god moves that people enjoy complaining about (rend, v-create, glance, etc) and the fact that we're in BH so everything is still bulky as shit, even when injured by the HP reduction.
• second, the counterplay against drum tends to be both poor and dependent on the drum matchup, which is made worse by the fact that the 2 main forms of drum (unburden and -ate/triage) share completely independent forms of counterplay, not to mention the variation between these such as giratina beating triage kart but not -atespeeds, unaware/fc "answering" unburdens except dusk mane / kartana, you get the idea. i think, for it's power and the lack of options against it that can easily be fit on the average team (unaware is piss poor and having fc on every team is highly restricting + still a drummer fish), drum is an issue (hell, even getting a bad prank matchup, which is supposed to be the drum counter, can just be an L).
• furthermore, the reasons for not wanting it gone being "just don't let it drum" is unrealistic in the same sense that "oh just don't get para'd" is, and there really isn't anyone i've spoke to who actively thinks drum is a healthy addition to the tier / has any other arguments for keeping drum free. as stated above counterplay is also dependent on the drummer which, due to the sheer amount of things that can drum, isn't very good

unless you have the matchup win you're also going to struggle a lot against dedicated drumspam + good player just because you probably lack the tools to be as secure as you'd like and can get forced into a flowcharted sequence of responses pretty reliably. there's a good deal of teams that just have an unwinnable drum MU because they don't hard prep for it (in spite of said teams being very good otherwise) which isn't fun either.

(also, sidenote: i now realise the mistake i said here in saying that beak would be unproblematic in current meta, keep this shit gone (even before loser's post i was sat there thinking "what mug wrote this? oh yeah"))

tl;dr - drum is not ok why are we only realising this 2 and a half years on

I’m pretty new in this meta and even I can tell the most efficient ways to force progress really boils down to paralysis spam and Belly Drum spam.

I’m working on a dedicated Belly Drum team and have found the counterplay ultimately comes down to:

Spectral Thief
Unaware
Imposter
Triage
Dazzling/Queen’s Majesty
Psychic Terrain
Prankster Encore/Topsy Turvy
Prankster Haze

Of these, most of them have simple to implement counterplay. Prankster Haze is definitely the most difficult to prep for as Dark types/Dazzling/QM/Psy Terr are not immune as they are to other Prankster moves, it works behind subs, but the best Prankster Haze users not weak to the meta’s common priority moves can still be overwhelmed with stronk SE stabs jacked up by passive power boosting abilties like Tough Claws, Adaptability, Guts, etc. Otherwise, an offensive Belly Drumming Taunt Prankster mon can even completely shut down with an opposing slower Haze Prankster to make it total dead weight.

In short, yeah I think Belly Drum is busted. If this format saw fit to ban Shell Smash, Belly Drum deserves a look as well.

 

[stephen78548]

seeing as its the topic of discussion as of current is BD (belly drum) I thought I may as well give my two cents on the matter. XxsavagexX recently asked the discord (if you haven't joined yet please do its super fun to talk BH with people) to send vids of losing/winning to Drumspam. I had nothing better to do and went to ladder knowing I'd lose to it seeing as I haven't found the out yet (if at all). No one was playing it so I went and played it myself. only losing to inexperience with the team and the mirror. I found out two things BD is a very broken move and i hate playing other people's teams. Regardless it feels very polarizing and you either have the out to the team or you dont. It feels very rough to just lose on team preview which is why I almost quit during cram format. It feels very rough paying your team and knowing you lost when the team would otherwise preform well. the problem really only occurred when almost every mon on the team has BD, I can usually deal with one or two uses of it but not 6. a fix could be to only have 1-2 users of the move though i wouldn't be opposed to the outright removal of it. Then again I feel like we have been a little ban happy. What's next? Coil? QD? I'm honestly a little stuck on the matter, if a sus test were to come for it I would vote ban.

 

[drbillz]

feel like this has been a long time coming, and talking about something to do with tiering action during a suspect isn't ideal, but i thought i'd give my piece on something that i honestly think is more problematic than anything currently in the tier

Belly Drum ​

View attachment 430817
simply put: i don't think this move is balanced. this is for a number of reasons.

• first off, instant +6 (which is actually +12 so you can get topsied and still go back to +6 on the second drum) should be a red flag in and of itself, especially given the fact that this boosts all of the god moves that people enjoy complaining about (rend, v-create, glance, etc) and the fact that we're in BH so everything is still bulky as shit, even when injured by the HP reduction.
• second, the counterplay against drum tends to be both poor and dependent on the drum matchup, which is made worse by the fact that the 2 main forms of drum (unburden and -ate/triage) share completely independent forms of counterplay, not to mention the variation between these such as giratina beating triage kart but not -atespeeds, unaware/fc "answering" unburdens except dusk mane / kartana, you get the idea. i think, for it's power and the lack of options against it that can easily be fit on the average team (unaware is piss poor and having fc on every team is highly restricting + still a drummer fish), drum is an issue (hell, even getting a bad prank matchup, which is supposed to be the drum counter, can just be an L).
• furthermore, the reasons for not wanting it gone being "just don't let it drum" is unrealistic in the same sense that "oh just don't get para'd" is, and there really isn't anyone i've spoke to who actively thinks drum is a healthy addition to the tier / has any other arguments for keeping drum free. as stated above counterplay is also dependent on the drummer which, due to the sheer amount of things that can drum, isn't very good

unless you have the matchup win you're also going to struggle a lot against dedicated drumspam + good player just because you probably lack the tools to be as secure as you'd like and can get forced into a flowcharted sequence of responses pretty reliably. there's a good deal of teams that just have an unwinnable drum MU because they don't hard prep for it (in spite of said teams being very good otherwise) which isn't fun either.

(also, sidenote: i now realise the mistake i said here in saying that beak would be unproblematic in current meta, keep this shit gone (even before loser's post i was sat there thinking "what mug wrote this? oh yeah"))

tl;dr - drum is not ok why are we only realising this 2 and a half years on

Look, there's lots counterplay to BD, and any good counter to BD is useful for other things. Your team needs to be able to handle set up sweepers, and most anti-set up mons can handle BD. Imposter, haze, speed control, etc are all good strategies you should be running. I'm not sure how else to put this, but get a better team.

 

[Tea Guzzler]

Look, there's lots counterplay to BD, and any good counter to BD is useful for other things. Your team needs to be able to handle set up sweepers, and most anti-set up mons can handle BD. Imposter, haze, speed control, etc are all good strategies you should be running. I'm not sure how else to put this, but get a better team.

• haze: the de facto "counter" that also still lets you die to standard attacks if you get a poor prank matchup and also just leaves you open to gambit, also doing nothing to stop any priority. any player with an iq above 7 won't simply use drum on a mon that can be freely hazed.
• imposter: handles neither primary type of drum. at all. triage you force a tie at best and die if you lose, unburden you just die regardless because you get outsped and the drum user always de-EVs to guarantee the instakill
• speed control: so just run nuzzle on the mons stopping drum that also have no room for nuzzle, also hoping that the mon with nuzzle is out at the time they drum and also healthy enough to live them just attacking. prank glare is an int since you aren't hazing and webs are bad because any decent team will have hazard clearing in the short run. sure, you can nuzzle on the turn they drum, but it's still a 1 for 1 that you probably take the worse end of, since the drummers are designed to be expendable.
• anti-setup: i do sure love when my fur coat mon instantly dies to +6 attacks through fur coat unless i run the exact fc needed to win at preview. unaware does not count, that ability is DIRE and completely contradicts the idea that handling drum + handling the rest of the tier can be compounded. you also assume people run teams with 0 setup counterplay and complain when they lose to setup, which is a lie - people DO run anti-setup and still lose to drum which is the issue.
• there is basically no other counterplay other than "just hope you're in the right place at the right time to spam spectral and also hope you underspeed"

the first sentence is also just wrong. i literally made the point that drum invalidates otherwise excellent teams because it's safest counterplay does not align with anything you'd run on an actual team, besides min-speed spectrals which are realistically only ever getting run on regenvest mons which even still don't run spectral that often. if you could name actual counterplay to drum that is reliable, works outside of drum games and also doesn't fall flat if the opponent isn't daft that'd be ideal.

ps: if you're saying i need better teams when i have won tour games with them, i would LOVE to see what your idea of a good team is.

 

[cityscapes]

it's the most wonderful time of the year...

"YOU WILL ADAPT! YOU WILL RUN REGI XER N REGI XERN ZAMAC GIRATINA IMPOSTER AND YOU WILL ACCEPT THE LOSSES TO HAX AND YOU WILL PLAY SOLIDLY AND YOU WILL NOT COMPLAIN"

"i dont know dude this game is LITERALLY UNPLAYABLE i GENUINELY CANNOT FIND A WAY TO BEAT THIS THREAT we have to ban bright powder because one time i faced a memer 1100 and he dodged my boomburst lol I HATE THIS GAME ME LOSING TOURS IS THE META'S FAULT"

"I WENT 5-2 IN OMPL I WON THE FUCKING GAMES I AM AUTOMATICALLY CORRECT ON THIS TOPIC. PLEASE DON'T MAKE ME PLAY ANY MORE GAMES"

"AS SOMEONE WHO WATCHES OMPL I DON'T LIKE WHEN MY PLAYER LOSES AND ONE TIME MY PLAYER LOST TO NUZZLE"

"I DON'T PLAY BH BUT THE METAGAME WOULD BE A LOT BETTER IF I WAS IN CHARGE. I DON'T PLAY IT BECAUSE I DON'T LIKE THE RULESET"

"I BEAT 11 YEAR OLDS ON THE LADDER WHO USE THIS BROKEN ELEMENT AND IT'S PERSONALLY VERY EASY TO BEAT THEM WITH MY ~adapted~ TEAM"

"well Actually if you look at the ban criteria we can see that nuzzule falls under the Uncompetitive umbrella similar to eternamax and moody (FREE MOODY BTW) which is why im learning towards Voting Ban on this PROBLEMATIC ELEMENT which i have flawlessly proven has no place in a healthy metagame. what is a healthy metagame? idk its when i win or something give me the reqs STOP BRING NUZLZLE AGAINST ME PLEASE"

"NOOO WE NEED NUZZLE FOR THE ENTIRE FOUNDATION OF THE META (which exists solely in my head) TO EXIST ETERN WILL BE BROKE N OR SOME SHIT IDK"

the absolute state of competitive theory..

 

[drbillz]

• haze: the de facto "counter" that also still lets you die to standard attacks if you get a poor prank matchup and also just leaves you open to gambit, also doing nothing to stop any priority. any player with an iq above 7 won't simply use drum on a mon that can be freely hazed.
• imposter: handles neither primary type of drum. at all. triage you force a tie at best and die if you lose, unburden you just die regardless because you get outsped and the drum user always de-EVs to guarantee the instakill
• speed control: so just run nuzzle on the mons stopping drum that also have no room for nuzzle, also hoping that the mon with nuzzle is out at the time they drum and also healthy enough to live them just attacking. prank glare is an int since you aren't hazing and webs are bad because any decent team will have hazard clearing in the short run. sure, you can nuzzle on the turn they drum, but it's still a 1 for 1 that you probably take the worse end of, since the drummers are designed to be expendable.
• anti-setup: i do sure love when my fur coat mon instantly dies to +6 attacks through fur coat unless i run the exact fc needed to win at preview. unaware does not count, that ability is DIRE and completely contradicts the idea that handling drum + handling the rest of the tier can be compounded. you also assume people run teams with 0 setup counterplay and complain when they lose to setup, which is a lie - people DO run anti-setup and still lose to drum which is the issue.
• there is basically no other counterplay other than "just hope you're in the right place at the right time to spam spectral and also hope you underspeed"

the first sentence is also just wrong. i literally made the point that drum invalidates otherwise excellent teams because it's safest counterplay does not align with anything you'd run on an actual team, besides min-speed spectrals which are realistically only ever getting run on regenvest mons which even still don't run spectral that often. if you could name actual counterplay to drum that is reliable, works outside of drum games and also doesn't fall flat if the opponent isn't daft that'd be ideal.

ps: if you're saying i need better teams when i have won tour games with them, i would LOVE to see what your idea of a good team is.

I mean, yeah, killing the belly drummer the turn it sets up is the best option, since it has half its hp. If you're having trouble figuring out counter play for a move that takes away half the user's health, I don't know what to tell you. Prankster haze counters unburden, and Dazzling/Queen’s Majesty/Psychic Terrain counter Triage.

Seriously, this format has become ridiculously ban happy. Just because you lose a few bad match ups doesn't mean you have to nerf the format into the ground.

 

[stephen78548]

I mean, yeah, killing the belly drummer the turn it sets up is the best option, since it has half its hp. If you're having trouble figuring out counter play for a move that takes away half the user's health, I don't know what to tell you. Prankster haze counters unburden, and Dazzling/Queen’s Majesty/Psychic Terrain counter Triage.

Seriously, this format has become ridiculously ban happy. Just because you lose a few bad match ups doesn't mean you have to nerf the format into the ground.

run a game up with me and try to beat the Drum spam team, i assure you it is not easy losing a game a team preview is never fun nor healthy which in most cases its what it does

 

[Tea Guzzler]

I mean, yeah, killing the belly drummer the turn it sets up is the best option, since it has half its hp. If you're having trouble figuring out counter play for a move that takes away half the user's health, I don't know what to tell you. Prankster haze counters unburden, and Dazzling/Queen’s Majesty/Psychic Terrain counter Triage.

Seriously, this format has become ridiculously ban happy. Just because you lose a few bad match ups doesn't mean you have to nerf the format into the ground.

• not every mon is going to be able to carry coverage to be able to hit a drummer (to which there is no concrete "oh if i run into a drummer it'll always be this"). you also seem to forget that this is still BH and there is still no EV limit, and well-positioned drummers will force you to switch by putting something you shouldn't be able to hit in front of you. drum mons also tend to be bulky mons independent of the EV limit (eg. zygc, ndm, zamac, kartana, yvel) so this argument falls through.
• i did indeed just say that prankster haze counters unburden, yes. this is still sketch as it is usually pretty bait what your prankster is, you can get a poor matchup that just dies even to +0 attacks, and people aren't going to ever drum with an unburden mon whilst prankster is still alive unless they know they can finish it off for another teammate (therefore your counterplay has keeled over)
• PsySurge is usable on 1 whole mon that is not common nor very effective, and dazzling/queenly majesty are very bad abilities that have only ever seen use as hard cteams (ie. you will never be running these on a proper team because, what do you know, they aren't good outside of the drum matchup, as i said above)
• >has become ridiculously ban happy
  >has the 2nd least bans of any OM and hasn't banned anything in 7 months
• drum is far too bad a matchup into basically every competent team, which cannot afford to invest in a good matchup lest they become bad teams. why should everyone have to invest in bad teams to not get run over by drum, and if they do invest in bad teams then they get floored by actual teams?
• you can also argue for drum by posting actual arguments with evidence as to how/why they work against good players, not simply stating things that are mechanically sound but realistically do toss all because BH isn't played by a thoughtless algorithm (or by slandering me specifically). we're all working towards the goal of having a better meta at the end of the day, there's less condescending (and tbh better argued) ways of doing this.

 

[drbillz]

• not every mon is going to be able to carry coverage to be able to hit a drummer (to which there is no concrete "oh if i run into a drummer it'll always be this"). you also seem to forget that this is still BH and there is still no EV limit, and well-positioned drummers will force you to switch by putting something you shouldn't be able to hit in front of you. drum mons also tend to be bulky mons independent of the EV limit (eg. zygc, ndm, zamac, kartana, yvel) so this argument falls through.
• i did indeed just say that prankster haze counters unburden, yes. this is still sketch as it is usually pretty bait what your prankster is, you can get a poor matchup that just dies even to +0 attacks, and people aren't going to ever drum with an unburden mon whilst prankster is still alive unless they know they can finish it off for another teammate (therefore your counterplay has keeled over)
• PsySurge is usable on 1 whole mon that is not common nor very effective, and dazzling/queenly majesty are very bad abilities that have only ever seen use as hard cteams (ie. you will never be running these on a proper team because, what do you know, they aren't good outside of the drum matchup, as i said above)
• >has become ridiculously ban happy
  >has the 2nd least bans of any OM and hasn't banned anything in 7 months
• drum is far too bad a matchup into basically every competent team, which cannot afford to invest in a good matchup lest they become bad teams. why should everyone have to invest in bad teams to not get run over by drum, and if they do invest in bad teams then they get floored by actual teams?
• you can also argue for drum by posting actual arguments with evidence as to how/why they work against good players, not simply stating things that are mechanically sound but realistically do toss all because BH isn't played by a thoughtless algorithm (or by slandering me specifically). we're all working towards the goal of having a better meta at the end of the day, there's less condescending (and tbh better argued) ways of doing this.

No, I'm suggesting that a format which is seriously discussing a paralyze clause might be getting a little ban happy. If you consider people telling you to "git gud" in an online game to be slander, git gud? I think our views on what makes BH a good meta are different. If I wanted to play something that was as "fair and balanced" as OU, I'd play OU. Having a kind of stupid meta is the point of BH.

 

[TTTech]

No, I'm suggesting that a format which is seriously discussing a paralyze clause might be getting a little ban happy. If you consider people telling you to "git gud" in an online game to be slander, git gud? I think our views on what makes BH a good meta are different. If I wanted to play something that was as "fair and balanced" as OU, I'd play OU. Having a kind of stupid meta is the point of BH.

Then play PH (Pure hackmons), the point of the suspect and a discussion on drum is to make the tier more "balanced" as the name suggest in balanced hackmons. Most bh mains enjoy bh because it's fun being creative, but where's the fun in auto losing to a +6 move thats spammed?

 

[Tea Guzzler]

No, I'm suggesting that a format which is seriously discussing a paralyze clause might be getting a little ban happy. If you consider people telling you to "git gud" in an online game to be slander, git gud? I think our views on what makes BH a good meta are different. If I wanted to play something that was as "fair and balanced" as OU, I'd play OU. Having a kind of stupid meta is the point of BH.

this is the last message i'm posting on this because your points have 0 merit and i'm getting bored of this

• "having a kind of stupid meta is the point of BH" WHAT DOES BH STAND FOR YOU MUPPET? BALANCED HACKMONS. the idea that "since everything is available, it should automatically be offense-oriented" has less than 0 merit.
• the OU comparison is poor. the tiers have no common ground, in that they play entirely differently (BH's playstyle is not like any other tier)
• we aren't even discussing paralysis clause
• if you want to play something where busted shit goes without people complaining about it then gen 6 ph is literally a ladder
• you telling me to git gud has even less basis because i don't even know who you are nor have i ever seen you actually playing the tier.

tl:dr - i'm all for constructive criticism, but your arguments have 0 evidence and everyone i've spoke to in the past hour also thinks the same

 

[XxLazzerpenguinxX]

No, I'm suggesting that a format which is seriously discussing a paralyze clause might be getting a little ban happy. If you consider people telling you to "git gud" in an online game to be slander, git gud? I think our views on what makes BH a good meta are different. If I wanted to play something that was as "fair and balanced" as OU, I'd play OU. Having a kind of stupid meta is the point of BH.

While I'm sure we all appreciate the various perspectives on what a good metagame is, I believe we've derailed a bit from the topic at hand. Currently, balanced hackmons is suspect testing paralysis because there has been enough people in the community who feel its presence in the metagame is unhealthy; and the bh council decided that these worries should be met with a suspect test. The goal of the BH Council is to 1. Create a competitive metagame, and 2. Create a fun metagame. While I do sympathize with those who may feel like a suspect test or tiering action is not warranted the discussion of what is "the ideal metagame" is not conducive at all to the issue at hand. I urge everyone here to 1. be respectful, and 2. keep the discussions on paralysis or belly drum on the topic of whether you think it is "broken" or not. NOT, whether bh council has become "banhappy". If you think paralysis is unhealthy explain why, instead of just criticizing past tiering actions (which is in fact totally fine, but not in the context of determining whether paralysis or drum deserve a place in the metagame)

 

[tzaur]

Not going to waste my time going back and forth here since it's counterproductive, so I'll just piggyback off of Tea's arguments and list some of the commonly mentioned answers to it and how BD can bypass each one depending on the variant--mainly for the outsiders reading in and wondering what issues some of us have with BD:

Spectral Thief
[Fur Coat]
Unaware
Imposter
Triage
Dazzling/Queen’s Majesty
Prankster [move]

Spectral Thief: Dependent on you either being unaware or timing it perfectly into the BD and immediately stealing the stat changes if you naturally underspeed. In most cases, you just die first if they've already set it up.

Fur Coat: Loses to Unburden. Otherwise, it requires you to naturally outspeed and punish or you just drop to nuclear/moldy moves through FC such as Fishious Rend, VC, Glance, etc.

Unaware: IMO the most consistent answer, but certain BD variants can still easily brute force through these. HAS to be a Steel-type, reasonably healthy (or you just get smothered by VC), and naturally fast or you risk getting dunked on by moldy moves. Also a mid ability in the current meta overall against the more consistent threats. Also difficult to fit on a lot of teams.

Imposter: Loses to Unburden. Contingent on you winning the speed tie if you're anything other than Choice Scarf or haven't paralysed the opponent first--or being at full (or took very little chip) if you lose the speed tie and you're Eviolite.

Triage: Not an answer, especially vs. Triage + Drum Kartana. Mainly good for picking them off once you've already chipped them down substantially even after the -50% (-25%) HP reduction.

Dazzling/Queenly Majesty: Usually a shit ability. Loses to Unburden/mons that just naturally outrun you. Requires that you outspeed + pick the target off from 50% (75%) which can be difficult to do with a mon without a damage-amplifying ability in a full EV meta stacked with mons with bulk in the ballpark of +/- 100/100/100.

Psychic Terrain: See: Dazzling/QM. Only really used on the fringe Mewtwo and occasionally on the banned Calyrex-S. Will admit that from my experience Specs Psychic Surge M2 + a durable Prankster mon, if played well, tears most if not all BD wincons to shreds, but again, PSurge M2 is fringe at best. Loses to Unburden by itself. Even if you want to offensively threaten a potential BurdenBelly if you're in a position to, even Specs PTerrain-boosted Expanding Force does <75% against some abusers which can still allow them to set up right in front of you and threaten a KO/force a sac.

Prankster anything: Loses to BD + -ate Extreme Speed if anything other than a Steel-type Prankster user. Loses to Triage + BD (Kartana, Zama-C) if a Steel-type Prankster user. Loses to Gambit if vs. BurdenBelly Zyg-C and an overall L if they have another BurdenBelly abuser chilling in the back waiting to blow through the rest of your team if you don't have an emergency check to it. Yveltal laughs at your Prankster Topsy. As mentioned multiple times by Tea, loses even at +0 if you have the wrong Prankster user.

 

[SlightlyAngryKevin]

No, I'm suggesting that a format which is seriously discussing a paralyze clause might be getting a little ban happy. If you consider people telling you to "git gud" in an online game to be slander, git gud? I think our views on what makes BH a good meta are different. If I wanted to play something that was as "fair and balanced" as OU, I'd play OU. Having a kind of stupid meta is the point of BH.

I love this tier and agree with a ban of belly drum, because to me this tier shouldn't be stupid it's supposed to be fun. losing on team preview isn't very fun to me. Not gonna bother stating the millions of reasons why belly drum should be banned because It's already been stated a lot of times by the better players than me. I mean I understand you might not agree with the ban but you still shouldn't be going after someone because of that. Anyway I hope everyone has a good night/day.

 

[Lunatic Hai]

Haven't played BH in a minute since it's gotten stale for me, but like clockwork, we have the same stupid shit going around.

Remove/limit drum, keep nuzzle.
I'm not going over all the arguments, but it's pretty clear that the people who actually play this tier to a significant degree are by and large in favor of the above action. As an additional note to the mindgame/momentum aspect, drum is king at taking you off guard. Even if you know the exact team/sets you're facing, drum spam can still roll you over without a very good matchup and very precise play, and that's in the best of cases. Take sevag's latest drum spam as an example: Barraskewda aside, it passes for a bulky offense team, or a balance one. You wouldn't necessarily guess it was drum at a first glance, and against HO, any momentum lost is prone to end in disaster. Discounting the fact that drum mons carry nuke moves capable of deleting you anyway, you have to be doubly careful because they could very well be a choiced breaker. Moldy kyub? Safe to assume it's shift gear or band, but he could also just click funny button and now you're screwed. Don? It COULD be a utility set or a breaker, but it could also be bellyburden. Having this available on literally any and all mons on your team is disgustingly strong and leads to layers of mindgames that inherently give the person using drum a huge advantage. It's more manageable in natdex and g7, but 8 seems far more one-sided.

Side note: Suspect ladders make me want to barf because half the people voting just take some sample or HO that's simple to use, don't get the tier at all, and vote just so they can get badges on their profile. This is more a grievance with smogon itself than the players, because they literally incentivize xFaZe_BH_Bad_Formatx who hasn't touched a format once in their life to put basically 0 effort in and affect the actual players of the meta, then never touch it again. This isn't to say that everything should be done by council decision, but good God, people are wack.

I've said it before and I'll say it again; gen 8 has brought like 10 defensive boons to the BH meta while also adding 43 different offensive tools. Naturally this'll skew things in favor of "haha click funny death button." We have 3 extra moves of comparable power to VC, while also having insane coverage. That alone would make shit like drumspam much stronger (Sevag's team literally has glance on 4/6 mons), and combined with all the other offensive shit that needs to be accounted for, pushes something like drum over the edge even when it wasn't considered as busted before.

(I will also maintain that removing glance and bringing beak back is the best option because I'd rather not scout every physical mon for glance + zekrom is hyper cool)