BH Balanced Hackmons

MAMP

MAMP!
I've come around on Belly Drum recently, and I'm absolutely in favour of a ban. It's too volatile: I don't think the power level of Belly Drum is unreasonable, but the way that it frequently causes games to be decided by a single turn feels uncompetitive and creates games that I don't enjoy. The most dangerous application of Belly Drum isn't on HO or DrumSpam teams, it's random priority drummers on otherwise balanced teams. I laddered for the Nuzzle suspect with a balanced 5 + Aerilate Belly Drum Rayquaza, and I stole so many games against good players because they made the 'safe' play of switching to RegenVest Dialga or whatever on like Turn 80 as I drummed. Didn't really feel like I outplayed them at all.
 
I've come around on Belly Drum recently, and I'm absolutely in favour of a ban. It's too volatile: I don't think the power level of Belly Drum is unreasonable, but the way that it frequently causes games to be decided by a single turn feels uncompetitive and creates games that I don't enjoy. The most dangerous application of Belly Drum isn't on HO or DrumSpam teams, it's random priority drummers on otherwise balanced teams. I laddered for the Nuzzle suspect with a balanced 5 + Aerilate Belly Drum Rayquaza, and I stole so many games against good players because they made the 'safe' play of switching to RegenVest Dialga or whatever on like Turn 80 as I drummed. Didn't really feel like I outplayed them at all.
The point's been made before, but bouncing off this, I dug up an old replay where a team I made by throwing literal dung at the wall managed to beat sevag just by catching him off guard with bellyburden. Granted, this was back when impform zacc, spore, and cram were running around, but they didn't have nearly as much impact on the game as +6 Ho-Oh did. Swapping Zekrom into Ho-Oh is about the safest play he can make since he could tank any hit and easily threaten me out while stuffing any possible nuzzle attempts... Except this isn't defensive Ho-Oh. So he just loses. But yeah occasional parahax is way worse than a button that instantly fucks you over without perfect momentum or counterplay via builder amiright
 
Well, since everyone else has posted their thought, I thought I'd also throw mine out there. Belly Drum strikes me as very similar to the case with Mega Mewtwo X in generation 7. On its own, it's not particularly problematic and with proper counterplay is both manageable and healthy for the game. However, people figured out that by stacking variants with wildly different counterplay they could just brute force the vast majority of teams. Just like with Mega Mewtwo X Spam the Belly Drum spam forces particular team compositions and very precise plays in order to not get overrun all whilst requiring little skill on the Belly Drum Spammers end. Since the issue with Belly Drum hinges on stacking Belly Drum pokemon, it makes more sense to restrict it to 1 Belly Drum user per team instead of outright banning it, as on its own it's a fairly healthy high-risk high-reward option that does see use on non-spam teams.
 
this is the last message i'm posting on this because your points have 0 merit and i'm getting bored of this
  • "having a kind of stupid meta is the point of BH" WHAT DOES BH STAND FOR YOU MUPPET? BALANCED HACKMONS. the idea that "since everything is available, it should automatically be offense-oriented" has less than 0 merit.
  • the OU comparison is poor. the tiers have no common ground, in that they play entirely differently (BH's playstyle is not like any other tier)
  • we aren't even discussing paralysis clause
  • if you want to play something where busted shit goes without people complaining about it then gen 6 ph is literally a ladder
  • you telling me to git gud has even less basis because i don't even know who you are nor have i ever seen you actually playing the tier.
tl:dr - i'm all for constructive criticism, but your arguments have 0 evidence and everyone i've spoke to in the past hour also thinks the same
Fine, I would like to apologize for coming across rude. You probably know more about the format than I do, and the majority of the forum agrees with you. And, I kind of see your point. If you attack the drummer on the setup turn, it's likely going to be KO'd. If you switch out, you're likely losing 1 or 2 mons, if not the whole match. I'm not saying it should be banned, but I can see your point.
 

Tea Guzzler

forever searching for a 10p freddo
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i am bored, so may as well do something """productive""" with my time
ANTI-CHEESE TACTICS

cheese tactics are annoying and no-one likes playing against them, so here i'll give some advice which should hopefully make life against these tactics easier. You're basically only going to see the majority of these on ladder so if you don't ladder (don't blame you) then you can skim over most of this, or just read my waffle anyway bc suck ya mum

First off, what do I define as cheese?
  • A set, or group of sets, which on their own hold little merit (ie. they can be argued as bad sets that won't carry their weight in the average game) and whose success piggybacks almost entirely off of surprise factor or the matchup.
Basically, by "cheese sets" I mean bad sets that you'll only lose to because you brought a bad matchup into them or got caught mad off guard.

IMPRISON + TRANSFORM

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Imprison + Transform (Abbreviated to ImprisonForm or ImpForm) works by trapping you with Anchor Shot (or Thousand Waves), sealing all moves shared with the opponent with Imprison, and then Transforming into the opponent - as the enemy can't use the same moves as you, and you have the same movesets, they're forced to struggle (and because you trapped them they can't leave and thus they die to struggle). ImpForm is at it's most lethal when you get caught off guard by the mon using it, and aren't able to kill it in time or to switch out of it. There's also the risk of a 50/50 if you come in on a trapping move, because of the different abilities usable - Fur Coat, Ice Scales and Immunity abilities (particularly Soundproof) can make getting trapped an instant kill if you're in the wrong place at the wrong time.

The primary way to deal with ImpForm is through Ghost Types - these are immune to trapping, so even if the enemy transforms into you, you can simply switch to your improof to keep both the mon and momentum. Shed Shell can work as well, so long as you're careful around knock. Unscouted ImpForms are easily the most dangerous so having some scout that can safely pivot out of suspected ImpFormers can identify the threat and remove the majority of the danger they pose. Other threats that can instakill / outspeed and 2 shot the ImpFormer can also be used, though if it's a 2 shot then you risk the 50/50 of running into a damage reduction ability.

Note: I'll lump Perish Trapping in here too, the counterplay is basically the same as ImpForm in "don't get trapped", "run a pivot move" or "kill the thing in front of you before you die".

ENCORE + DISABLE

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Discount ImpForm
. You get Encored into a move, and when that move's disabled, you don't have any usable moves so you struggle. This is worse than the above because you don't actually kill the target faster, but in return probably wind up running Prankster (which means no damage reduction ability + Dark Types can't get trapped) and you get blocked by Magic Bounce. Worth noting though.

TRAP + ABILITY CHANGE

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These work by trapping you in, giving you a bad ability and then, because you have an anti-ability, having good odds to win the 1v1. TrapPult is the main one you'll probably see, which either kills you itself with shit like Leech Seed or stacks stat boosts (Normally Acupressure) and Baton Passes to a teammate. Skill Swap + Truant is also something that exists and, provided it's 4th residual-damage move hits you, kills you with chip and never dies due to Protect + Truant.
Eleki is just bad and it needs to Skill Swap before trapping you to not lose a turn to Truant (so is mega telegraphed), and can also lose to Teleport as it can't prevent non-targeting switch moves with Protect.
Pult's counterplay should honestly be on most teams anyway because regular NormPult exists (which includes Glare, Priority, PShot, Magic Bounce, etc.), of which Magic Bounce is a hard counter, PShot means you don't get trapped, every viable Priority threatens a 2shot or better and Glare completely shuts it down from getting more than 1 kill (if the glarer can't switch). Note that SD can potentially be swapped for things like Taunt to mitigate the Glare/PShot strats.

CHEESE SETUP STRATS

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These both work by trying to set up whilst blocking both Imposter and Pranksters. Obstagoon seals it's moves to stop Imposter from clicking them, with Haze on the set to stop Prankster mons from removing the boosts (with it's typing giving it an immunity to Spectral Thief and Prankster Topsy-Turvy), and attacking with +2 STAB 220BP Power Trip. Marshadow uses Ghost Memory to have both STAB attacks with Imp not being able to hit back (since it doesn't have Ghost Memory and thus has Normal type Multi-Attack), and carries Prankster + Taunt to outspeed and Taunt enemy Haze/Topsy-Turvy.
Obstagoon's main features to exploit are that it takes 2 turns to set up (meaning it has to win a 50/50 between you going to Prankster or a kill threat) and that it's damage, even when boosted, is bad - realistically you're going to have a bulky dark resist with recovery on basically every team. (Boosted PTrip will basically never 2HKO +Def ZamaC, who can just spam Recover / punch it with Fighting STAB)
Marshadow's main weaknesses are similar - it's damage output isn't terrifying (because of the low base attack + needs to run Jolly), and it can still get outpaced by +Speed Zama-C and anything faster. Neither also function if hit with Knock Off.

PRANKSTER + ELECTRIFY

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Most commonly seen on Baton Pass teams, this works by basically making you unable to deal damage every time it clicks Electrify, eventually getting a Sub up and passing to a teammate. Electrify goes through Bounce too, which shaves off otherwise counterplay, and Electrify's 32 PP can easily burn through PP of your powerful attacks like Boomburst if you aren't careful. The main counterplay is Priority, such as Extreme Speed from Xerneas, or Triage attacks like Yveltal's Oblivion Wing. Lightningrod + Electrify also exists as seen in OMPL here, but the counterplay also opens up to naturally faster mons / Prankster Glare.
Note: I've seen Anchor + Speed Swap + Harvest + Leppa Berry + Electrify on Steelix before. You basically just need to instakill this whilst you outspeed it.

SERENE GRACE

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Works mainly through trying to bullshit you with flinch RNG. Electric/Ice coverage can make damage non-trivial over time and Sacred Fire's 100% Burn Rate is also noteworthy as an option (SD or SF are usually exchanged for recovery). The main counters are Fur Coat walls that don't really care about burn (as you should always be getting recovers off eventually) and PH mons (for the immunity to Burn / passive recovery).

GAMBITSPAM

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Gambitspam is just what it says on the tin - spamming Final Gambit to instadrop as many enemy mons as possible, then having a non-gambiting game ender (usually NormPult) in the back to try and win the 1v1 with (assuming that 5 gambits net you 5 kills). It's probably the most telegraphed strategy here, since you'll basically always be seeing this at preview:
1655748692514.png

It'll basically always be 5 massive HP mons + a solo wincon that's never gambiting. Normally, these mons are Scarf + Scrappy - to try and always go first / remove Gambit counterplay in Ghost types (other ideas, like Prankster Copycat, tend to fall through as one of the main counterplay methods is Priority, which disrupts Copycat).
The type of Game Ender in the back can be the deciding factor for if you win or lose, and so if you have something in the back to win, you simply need to preserve this as the last mon by letting everything else die to Gambit. Priority attacks can also reduce the damage dealt by Gambit and potentially make you live one (especially Pixilate ESpeed - no gambiting mons eat it well). In addition, there really aren't any potential gambiters that can also function as the end wincon, so the enemy's end wincon is usually extremely clear, letting you plan the game out early.

BATON PASS CHAINS

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These work by stringing together loads of Baton Pass users, each with their own defensive ability / stat boosting moves, constantly passing stats to each other and eventually gaining enough to pass to a game ender. These teams often stack loads of immunities (both in types and abilities) to try and suppress would-be counterplay such as Topsy-Turvy, Boomburst and Spectral Thief as much as possible, and will also abuse the things that Baton Pass passes such as Ingrain. These in general take time to wear down, and typically games either end 0-6 (you couldn't stop the boosted game ender) or 6-5 (you broke the chain, and there's no safe way of getting it going again).

Because of all the immunity abilities they require, BP teams often aren't able to stack multiple Pranksters, meaning Prank Haze is usually a pretty free way to buy time. Taunt goes through Substitute and can usually end games on the spot, as can surprise Spectrals ruining a chain. Priority can help keep Subs off the field and thus make the chain riskier to upkeep. The wincons also tend not to carry any removal prevention (from what i've seen on ladder), so this can be abusable as well. Roar technically works, but you're realistically only using Roar to counterteam someone running BP and other phasing moves don't phase if they hit a sub.

PRANKSTER + COPYCAT

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Most commonly seen on Marowak-A, the mon will use an attacking move such as V-create, and thanks to Prankster, Copycat gains +1 priority and can be used to call that move again with priority. Notably, Marowak-A has Thick Club to double it's attack, STAB on V-create, and access to STAB Shadow Force - this in particular means that Marowak can call priority Shadow Force to disappear, and then won't have priority on the second turn, meaning you come out of the shadows last, and can simply disappear before the enemy moves (this also goes off of Copycat's 32 PP so can be spammed). Wolfe Glick has a video on it which is the same principle with Purrloin / Liepard and Prankster Assist calling Dive.

The main counter to this is other priority moves - if used when Marowak is outside of shadows, these will go before Shadow Force is called (because Marowak will be minimum speed), and so Copycat will recognise these as the last used moves and call them instead of Shadow Force. Zygarde-C is a pretty good answer as Glacial Lance is fairly uncommon, you can threaten it with TWaves and can live Shadow Forces. Knock Off literally halves it's damage output which significantly neuters the set too. Dark Types are immune to Prank-Copycat-called moves, but the second turn of Shadow Force isn't Prankster boosted so will still connect.

This list is by no means exhaustive, but these should be the ones you'll run into most (that i'd think of as cheese), and the counterplay is often transferrable between methods since most will rely on some sort of trapping or skill swap.

(i was debating whether or not to put weather on this list but i decided against it)
 

Attachments

BH is known for its choices and as a new player the sheer amount may be a bit overwhelming, ive had the idea to make a tier list for it for some time now and i think im happy with it from the amount of help ive gotten from the discord in making it im quite positive this would give you a general idea of what Abils are worth considering and which are not worth a second glance. So without further adieu here is the list and i hope it helps you out in team building!

https://tiermaker.com/list/pokemon/all-pokmon-abilities-703354/2262537

Mamp's take(ill remove it if they want to post it to the forum)
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Paralysis/Nuzzle/Parahax

I've noticed a lot more of Paralysis/Parahax teams recently and teams focusing on that, now i'm not here to advocate for a ban but i do think that a Clause should be made for this given that the counters to the status isn't very wide. Now to start, Nuzzle is one thing i think everyone deals with in BH. Nuzzle is only blocked by ground types or of course the magic guard toxic orb mons or poison heal mons. Nuzzle is very free to use as the risk of using it is near 0 and then can fully disable a mon from actually countering other mons. There is times where you can be paralyzed twice and in both occasions it could've been a deciding factor to the match.

Nuzzle while i do see its place due to sleep being banned, it seriously needs to be limited i think to minimum 2 mons per team. While i personally think it should be 1, it would really faze it out and i don't think thats healthy for BH.

Of course counters exist, Heal bell/Aromatherapy, Ground Types, Poison Heal/Magicguard w/toxic orb, etc, these are dedicated counters and must be accounted for in teams opposed to being able to work around the problem in a normal match. With little to no risk, and massive reward of turning the receiver into 50/50 of being able to attack.

While i know this is not fully compelling i do think the discussion of Restricting Nuzzle so its not as free as it is right now is needed. I do not think banning it would do any good or solve anything however it being able to freely spam it isn't good for this meta as it requires no skill and has no risk unless you happen to have a ground type.
 
I've noticed a couple things looking around these forums over the past few days, and probably the most important of these is a general lack of resources for newer players getting into the tier (beyond the sample teams / sample submissions). So, thought i'd chip in a bit and give some guidance on the big breakers of BH because I enjoy doing that and bc why not, no-one else is doing it (VR update who)

also note that big scary breakers with 0 longevity can be hard to use/justify if all they do is be big scary breakers with 0 longevity (see the top 3 mons, note that they all do something else as well)

TEA GUZZLER'S BH BREAKER TIER LIST
(I mean breaker tier list, so sweepers like Hero Zacian/Zamazenta aren't included)

S RANK

:ss/xerneas:

(Sets here)

Best mon in BH. The amount of both offensive and defensive utility this offers is unparalleled, and this is just ONE of it's possible sets, hence why it's the best BH mon. Fairy type is phenomenal as there are no good non-passive fairy resists outside of Ho-Oh, which is why Diamond Storm and Fishious Rend are options. Boomburst has absurd power, Rapid Spin can do all of boost speed, PP stall and clear hazards in one slot, Strength Sap can be used as massive immediate healing (Recover can be used instead, which is overall worse but good if you're paranoid about Magic Bounce Steels), and every other option listed in the paste has it's merits, with Extreme Speed, Volt Switch, Rapid Spin and Quiver Dance being the most common. There is no reason why you should not consider this as your breaker.

Advantages:
  • Overpowered Type
  • Great Base Stats
  • Amount of coverage is absurd
  • Great Item Variety
  • Pixilate Boomburst is stupid
  • Can choose coverage to beat whatever check it wants
  • Reliable game-on-game
Disadvantages:
  • Magic Bounce steels that aren't Zamazenta-C can be annoying
  • Annoyed by paralysis
  • The entire meta is prepared for it because of how good it is
  • Running Pixilate Xerneas means you aren't running Poison Heal Xerneas, which is also phenomenal

:ss/regigigas:

Regigigas @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance / Dragon Fance / Shift Gear
- Facade
- 2 of Wicked Blow / Precipice Blades / Glacial Lance / V-create / Nuzzle / Knock Off / Spikes / U-Turn / Sacred Fire
- ^^^

Easily top 2 in the game. Logic is 'Absurd base stats + STAB Facade + Poison Heal + 160 base attack', and that's all you really need to know. The massive damage output of Facade, further bolstered by a boosting move, means any neutral target is likely to drop, often even through Fur Coat - the coverage on this, similar to Xerneas, is also immense and can be used to make gradual progress (Knock Off, Spikes), annoy walls (Knock Off, Spikes, Nuzzle, U-Turn, Sacred Fire) or just straight up beat them (Wicked Blow, Nuzzle, Precipice Blades, Glacial Lance, V-Create). The staying power of Poison Heal is also ridiculous, meaning this threat persists for the majority of the game and is often the reason why games will be ended - Normal Type and great base stats also support this staying power. There's no reason to not consider this either.

Advantages:
  • Great Base Stats
  • STAB Facade is a delete button
  • Great Staying Power
  • Great Coverage Options, meaning there is no true counter
  • Is not restricted to solely breaking
  • Reliable game-on-game
Disadvantages:
  • Depending on how you choose to improof this (ie. make it hard lose to one mon specifically), there's a chance you run into that mon but on the enemy team, at which point you are having a rough time. (Example, if I run Swords Dance/Facade/Wicked Blow/Spikes, intending to Improof with Magic Bounce Zamazenta-C, then if the enemy has Magic Bounce Zamazenta-C then gigas does very little until it is removed since the gigas is designed to not do anything to it)
  • Similar to Xerneas, being so good means the entire meta is prepared for you
  • Mandated item/ability slot

Regigigas @ Life Orb
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shift Gear
- Multi-Attack
- Wicked Blow
- V-create

this isn't reliable and probably shouldn't be considered for a serious team, but MAMP made this a while back and it is the funniest shit to just shift turn 1 and just get 3 or 4 kills against the poor guy on the other end

:ss/eternatus:

(Sets here)

In my opinion, the 3rd best mon in the tier and a contender for the 3rd breaker on par with Spectrier (below). Eternatus is good because of Poison STAB + Ridiculous Base stats, which allow it to sponge a significant amount of hits and fire back with immense power. Eternatus' ace, however, is set variety - all of the above abilities are viable and each can choose between gradual breaking or immediate breaking, and with whichever option it can choose which walls it chooses to destroy. For reference:
  • Regenerator provides the most longevity and is great for more balanced teams
  • Simple / Mold Breaker are very offensive sets that excel on Hyper Offence / Can instawin in a large number of matchups, but heavily struggle with poor matchups
  • Adaptability is good in all situations but doesn't tilt too far in either direction between offence and balance
  • Specs + Dragon's Maw is a funny instakill machine but is otherwise a waste of the etern slot imo (it falls flat as soon as you load into a competent player)
  • Sniper + Scope Lens is about as anti-stall as they get but isn't very good otherwise (crits ignore sp.attack drops from things like parting shot / crit rate can't be removed by haze, spectral or topsy-turvy)
Overall, eternatus' biggest asset as a breaker is it's unpredictability. More offensive sets can be susceptible to poor matchups but in the average game it is a strong performer. Hell, even defensive sets like Ice Scales can do breaking if you just whack on Nasty Plot or something.

Advantages:
  • Great base stats, including super-effective STAB against the best mon in the tier
  • Absurd set variety
  • Ability to pick and choose which walls it destroys
  • Improofing your specific set is fairly easy
Disadvantages:
  • Many sets lack longevity outside of Black Sludge
  • Well prepped for
  • Susceptible to bad matchups
  • Hates Paralysis
A RANK

:ss/spectrier:

Spectrier @ Choice Specs
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest / Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Astral Barrage
- Moongeist Beam
- Volt Switch
- Trick / Focus Blast / Lunar Dance

Who would've guessed that the fast ghost type would be good in a fast tier with few ghost resists? Spectrier excels at exploiting the lack of viable ghost resists in BH (seriously, there's a whole 2 you'd consider for the average team) with not one, but TWO super-powered STABS in Astral Barrage and Moongeist Beam. Astral Barrage, combined with Choice Specs and Adaptability, deals huge damage to everything without Ice Scales or Assault Vest thanks to being a 120 Base Power, 0 drawback move - Moongeist Beam deals slightly less damage, but has the benefit of cutting clean through Ice Scales and still maintains key 2-hit KOs on almost every important target. In addition, if you don't want to predict which one to use (or you want to save one of your 16 breaking PP), just volt switch all your problems away! And to top this all off, you still have a 4th move slot, which you can honestly put pretty much anything in - Trick excels at crippling switchins for the rest of the game and can be a final gambit if you're not getting in again, Focus Blast can be used to exploit teams using Regigigas as their switchin and force even more mindgames than you already do, and Lunar Dance exists but needs proper timing. Spectrier's fair bulk also lets it reliably come in to do damage, and it can sponge a hit in a pinch if needed.

Advantages:
  • Ghost STAB is busted, and you have 2 Ghost Moves
  • Fair Bulk
  • Excellent Speed
  • Imposter cannot come in safely
  • Relatively easy to Improof
Disadvantages:
  • Regigigas is on almost every team so often you're predicting every time you're in
  • Needs team support to break down RegenVest mons
  • Paralysis is a death sentence
  • While strong, you usually aren't instakilling
  • Choice Locked
  • Lacks defensive utility

:ss/ho-oh:

Ho-Oh @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- V-create
- Nuzzle
- Recover

Ho-Oh @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fire Lash
- Brave Bird
- Nuzzle
- Recover

Despite it's seemingly defensive use as a Xerneas check, these sets manage to both break things and check Xerneas at the same time. The Life Orb set (Fire Lash, Brave Bird, Nuzzle, Recover) excels at abusing Fire Lash's constant defence drops to repeatedly force switches and spread paralysis, whereas the Desolate Land set (Swords Dance, V-create, Nuzzle, Recover) excels at constantly threatening absurd damage with +2 V-create coming off of 130 Base attack in Sun. These are great breakers because they both can be use to check not only Xerneas but also other special attackers, particularly Eternatus, due to Ho-Oh's stellar 106/154 special bulk. A burn immunity on a breaker is also a very important trait. Ho-Oh's main issues are Core Enforcer removing Magic Guard (which hurts especially bad if you're been Toxic poisoned and have not considered the buildup of toxic turns), and Knock Off -> Stealth Rock for the Desolate Land variants. Neither also particularly likes Giratina sitting in front of it.

Advantages:
  • Great base stats
  • Compounds a special wall and a breaker into one slot
  • V-create attacker that can easily punish Primordial Sea
  • Easy to Improof
  • Constantly forces switches
  • Can slow down other offence, giving more opportunities to break
  • Burn Immunity
Disadvantages:
  • 4x Rock weakness (Both from Stealth Rock and from Diamond Storm coverage)
  • More dedicated special attackers, such as Xerneas with coverage / choiced attackers, can overwhelm you
  • Can't actually damage Primordial Sea for meaningful amounts
  • Annoyed by Zygarde-Complete / Giratina
  • Most teams are prepared for it

:ss/kyurem-black:

Kyurem-Black @ Choice Band / Expert Belt
Ability: Mold Breaker / Adaptability / Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Glacial Lance
- V-create
- Precipice Blades
- U-turn / Bolt Strike / Trick

Busted moves: The mon. Black Kyurem carves it's niche by abusing the absurdly powerful moves Glacial Lance and V-create which, combined with a Choice Band, 170 Base attack and an ability of your choice, create a feast-or-famine machine that has the potential to get a kill every time it hits the field so long as you get your predicts. Kyurem's bulk is also a surprising 125/100/90, which against neutral hits allows it to come in fairly reliably. The only major issue with Kyurem is the lack of longevity - more apparent than other breakers is the weakness to Stealth Rock and inability to outspeed some very common threats, meaning Kyurem needs a large amount of team support in order to function effectively through means such as Paralysis or effective Hazard Control.

Advantages:
  • Good Bulk
  • Fair Speed
  • Great Instakilling Power
  • Good Coverage Options
  • Ice Type = STAB Glacial Lance
Disadvantages:
  • Poor Typing
  • Underspeeds key targets such as Xerneas
  • Notoriously difficult to Improof
  • Often lacks any defensive / pivoting utility
  • Choice Locked

:ss/palkia:

Palkia @ Lustrous Orb
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty / Naive Nature
- Fishious Rend
- Dragon Energy
- Shift Gear / Rapid Spin / Nuzzle / Spikes / Steam Eruption
- Strength Sap

Busted moves 2: electric boogaloo, Fishious Rend and Dragon Energy are ridiculous and Palkia takes full exploitation of that with STAB on both, Lustrous Orb and Adaptability. These combine into a fierce breaker that 2-hit KOs almost anything in front of it, and this is before considering speed boosting options in Rapid Spin / Shift Gear which only increase the scope of mons you can kill. This is further aided by the fact that there are a whole 2 viable mons that resist your STAB combination - Tapu Fini and Ferrothorn - neither of which are stellar meta picks. The issue with Palkia is being a Dragon Type in a meta with Fairy Types being so good, and with Improofing (if you want to be safe, you basically need Tapu Fini or Ferrothorn).

Advantages:
  • Abuses Fishious Rend and Dragon Energy to be basically unwallable without an intact enemy Tapu Fini / Fur Coat Steel
  • Free slot for utility
  • Key speed tier in outspeeding Xerneas
  • Access to Lustrous Orb, which is a drawback-less damage boost
Disadvantages:
  • Fairy-Weak
  • Hard to Improof
  • Enemy Prankster Tapu Fini almost invalidates this mon
  • Hates Paralysis

:ss/calyrex-ice:

(Sets here)

Calyrex-Ice is very similar to Black Kyurem in that they both abuse Glacial Lance. However, whilst Kyurem normally uses a Choice Band setup, Calyrex-Ice has a few more options due to being REALLY bulky. Choice Band still works as it would on Kyurem, but this mon has a perfect speed tier of 199 to outspeed all the base 130 mons, namely Eternatus, after a shift gear, making it excellent as a setup breaker. The bulk also lets it have a lot more utility options such as Nuzzle or Spikes, actual healing in Regenerator or Sap, and actual defensive utility such as being a switchin to many physical walls (provided you've scouted coverage). The main place Calyrex falls short in is in the Improofing department (Kyurem is already really hard, so have fun Improofing +1 Kyurem that also outspeeds you), and also that the speed is very low without boosts.

Advantages:
  • Ideal speed tier for setup
  • Why is this so bulky
  • Great base stats
  • Ice Type = STAB Glacial Lance
Disadvantages:
  • Hazard weakness
  • Low speed when not boosted
  • Psychic type isn't massively useful (for example, adds a Wicked Blow weakness)
  • Hard to Improof

B RANK

:ss/rayquaza: :ss/yveltal:

Rayquaza / Yveltal @ Life Orb
Ability: Aerilate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naive / Rash Nature
- Boomburst
- V-create
- Extreme Speed / Knock Off
- Strength Sap / Quiver Dance / Explosion

One of my personal favourites, Mixed Aerilate has phenomenal damage output due to Flying being really good in current meta + these 2 Aerilate breakers having great mixed attacking stats. V-create is an option to destroy Steel types with it's massive base power, and the 3rd slot depends on the mon - Yveltal has STAB Knock Off, which is great, whereas Rayquaza normally runs Extreme Speed as there's not really another alternative and having a powerful ESpeed is always appreciated. Yveltal is the safer option due to having the ability to hard switch into Core Enforcer and having higher overall bulk, whereas Rayquaza's higher offences mean increased damage output and some key calculations that Yveltal just misses out on such as guaranteed 2-hit KO'ing Ho-Oh from full with Boomburst. The main issue with both of these is the lack of defensive utility they provide beyond Yveltal Knock, and also the Life Orb + Sap issue which still plagues me to this day (where, if the enemy has a Magic Bounce mon, you either Sap, meaning the Bounce mon can come in and block your healing, or you attack, putting you dangerously close to death from Life Orb recoil and chancing the enemy just going to a wall).

Advantages:
  • Great mixed attacking stats
  • Great attacking type and moves
  • Fair Speed
  • Yveltal's Knock and Rayquaza's ESpeed both provide important utility
  • Both hover over spikes, making getting in less of a hassle
Disadvantages:
  • Lack of defensive utility
  • Both are Fairy and Stealth Rock weak
  • Non-Zamazenta-C Fur Coat Steels are very annoying
  • Both don't enjoy Paralysis

:ss/groudon:

Groudon @ Choice Band
Ability: Adaptability / Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Precipice Blades
- Thousand Arrows
- Glacial Lance
- Trick / U-Turn

Groudon's great Attack stat, good bulk and Ground STAB let it do significant damage to anything. Thousand Arrows is one of the most spammable attacks in the game and can be used realistically whenever, whilst Precipice Blades is a stronger alternative if there's no need for Arrows. Glacial Lance hits Giratina and Zygarde-Complete, the only real safe switch-ins besides Golisopod, deleting would-be nuisances for other Physical Attackers. Groudon overall, unlike most of the other breakers here, is always able to hit something for high damage, which speaks to the strength of Ground STAB when the best type for containing the top meta threats is Steel Type. Breaker Groudon's main issue that holds it back from A rank is the opportunity cost - because Groudon is a great mon, using breaker Groudon means you aren't using one of Groudon's other, arguably more useful, sets such as Prankster, Soundproof, Magic Bounce or the like. This can end up causing difficulties in the builder and otherwise suboptimal role allocation.

Advantages:
  • Ground STAB is really good
  • Thousand Arrows / U-Turn both ease predictions significantly
  • Hits pretty much everything hard with either ability
  • Bulky ground type = Nuzzle switchin
Disadvantages:
  • Base 90 speed means a few mons, particularly Xerneas and Palkia, can outspeed and either threaten out or spam Strength Sap in front of you
  • Precipice Blades' 85 accuracy is a thing that needs to be considered
  • Opportunity cost of not using another Groudon set
  • Choice Locked

:ss/blacephalon:

Blacephalon @ Life Orb
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Astral Barrage
- Moongeist Beam
- V-create
- Strength Sap

Blacephalon @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Astral Barrage
- Mind Blown
- Strength Sap

Blacephalon is great due to the combination of Fire/Ghost STAB, which allows it to abuse all of Astral Barrage, Moongeist Beam and V-create. These, in combination with great mixed attacking stats, mean Blacephalon is easily capable of doing > 70% to even the bulkiest walls and outright instakilling a large proportion of the metagame. The speed tier is useful as well for passing a significant portion of the metagame. Notably, Blacephalon is one of stall's worst nightmares due to it's massive damage output, and it's ability to threaten common Fur Coat/Ice Scales walls with the other side of the attacking spectrum. On the other hand, Magic Guard Mind Blown goes all in on the special side with the massive damage of Mind Blown bolstered by Quiver Dance, which allows Blacephalon to both break and sweep so long as Mind Blown's 8PP is conserved. Blacephalon's key issue is it's frailty - the thing has 53/53/79 bulk, which is absolute paper, so it absolutely mandates heavy team support to perform but can absolutely perform well given this.

Advantages:
  • Good speed tier
  • Excellent STAB combination
  • Imposter does not come in safely
  • Fire Type means it can live Xerneas Boomburst in a pinch
  • Can instakill a large part of the metagame
Disadvantages:
  • 0 defensive utility
  • Bulk is basically non-existent other than fringe cases
  • Stealth Rock weakness + not flying above Spikes
  • Magic Guard sets need to conserve Mind Blown PP to be useful
  • Constantly spends turns sapping due to chip

:ss/kartana:

Kartana @ Choice Band
Ability: Steely Spirit / Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Sunsteel Strike
- V-create
- Glacial Lance
- Trick / U-Turn

The main reason you'd be using Kartana is for the Steel Type - either through Sunsteel Strike ignoring abilities, or through Steely Spirit being used to boost Sunsteel's damage (and the damage of any stray Doom Desire teammates like Dialga). Kartana is very potent due to it's ability to ignore Fur Coat as a whole with Sunsteel, which when combined with Tinted Lens allows for ridiculous damage output against anything, or with Steely Spirit to have massive damage output against non-resists. A good speed tier and surprising physical bulk also aid it coming in too. Kartana's main issue is it's lack of special bulk making it difficult to hit the field without a slow pivot, Doom Desire strats being predictable, and lack of defensive utility.

Advantages:
  • STAB ignores abilities
  • Can be stacked with Doom Desire support for significant breaking power
  • High Speed
  • Good Physical Bulk
Disadvantages:
  • Can be difficult to Improof
  • If enemy Imposter is a consideration, forces mind games between Sunsteel and V-create
  • Low defensive utility
  • Lack of special bulk means any stray special attack is probably doing >60%
  • Choice Locked

:ss/zekrom:

Zekrom @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Volt Tackle
- Dragon Energy
- Spikes / Shift Gear / Soak
- Strength Sap

Magic Guard Zekrom is good. I don't have a ton of experience with it myself but Volt Tackle has good PP and is great at forcing answers, Dragon Energy lets you hit on both sides of the attacking spectrum, Sap is high, Improof-able healing and the last slot can be used to either make gradual progress with Spikes or force switches with Shift Gear / Soak. This is also excellent defensive utility on teams that find themselves weak to Ho-Oh. Zekrom has similar issues to Palkia in that it's a Dragon Type in a meta laden with Fairies and Faster Dragons, and often doesn't carry a way to boost it's speed. In addition, Groudon being so good holds this back, particularly given that Groudon is almost always running a way to boost Ground damage (usually Soft Sand), thus is often doing at least 85 in one hit to Zekrom.

Advantages:
  • Good defensive utility in answering Ho-Oh
  • Great mixed attacking types
  • Harder to PP stall than most breakers
  • Nuzzle immunity, and isn't completely bricked by Burn
  • Can make gradual progress with Spikes
Disadvantages:
  • Can be difficult to get in against common meta mons
  • Dragon/Electric is weak defensively and leaves it open to common coverage
  • Typical Improofs aren't 100% safe (they can usually get crippled by Volt Tackle paralysis)

:ss/magearna:

Magearna @ Pixie Plate / Metronome / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Boomburst
- Rapid Spin
- Volt Switch / Quiver Dance / Anchor Shot
- Strength Sap

This pretty much works as Xerneas does, but you lose the ability to run significant coverage. In exchange for this and for overall worse base stats, you gain the Steel type, which mainly exists to ease the matchup against utility Eternatus sets / Zamazenta-C. There's really not a lot to say about this other than "it's worse pixi xern but it's steel type". You'd probably run this if you want to stack Fairies but are already using non-Pixilate Xerneas and don't fancy using Zacian-H, or for some other specific reason that would depend on the rest of your team. Anchor shot can also self-improof but you lose pivoting which is rough.

Advantages:
  • Best type in the game (Steel/Fairy)
  • Pixilate is good
  • Better matchup against Zama-C and Eternatus than Xerneas
Disadvantages:
  • Almost completely predictable
  • Loses the masses of coverage options that Xerneas has
  • Steel type introduces some unwanted weaknesses, namely Fire but also Ground
  • Just use Xerneas if you have the option

C RANK

:ss/mewtwo:

Mewtwo @ Choice Specs
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest / Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Expanding Force
- Volt Switch
- Trick
- Photon Geyser / Filler

Mewtwo is OK as a breaker. I'm not sure it's down here with Barraskewda but i'm also less keen on it being as good as Magearna, so it'll stay here for now. Choice Specs PsySurge Expanding Force gives very high damage output against neutral targets due to Mewtwo's 154 Special Attack, making Mewtwo one of the few ways to offensively pressure Eternatus. In addition, it's high speed tier lets it outrun and threaten almost all of the metagame, similar to Spectrier. However, I think that breaker Mewtwo is overall a downgrade than Spectrier, mainly due to the inferiority of Psychic STAB which fails to leave a mark on the countless steel types roaming the tier (with the exception of Zamazenta-C).

Advantages:
  • Psychic Surge blocks priority, and means you still have increased damage output if you lose ability
  • Good base stats with a great special attack
  • Easy to Improof
Disadvantages:
  • Psychic is not a very good attacking type
  • Trouble with RegenVest
  • Little defensive utility
  • Choice Locked

:ss/barraskewda:

Barraskewda @ Choice Band
Ability: Primordial Sea / Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fishious Rend
- Diamond Storm
- U-turn / Volt Switch
- Trick

A matchup fish, in the most literal sense. Palkia already shows that Fishious Rend is dumb, so how about Fishious Rend but coming off of 408 speed? Fishious Rend boosted by either Tinted Lens or Primordial Sea is an absolute machine at getting kills, and you instawin in certain matchups just because this move is dumb. However, this thing is nowhere near consistent - Desolate Land is Barra's fun police (this is why you run U-Turn / Volt Switch over Flip Turn, with VS negating Rocky Helmet chip but doing less damage), really bulky resists like Giratina / Palkia blank even Tinted Lens sets, and Paralysis / enemy priority basically mean this is a dead mon. It's fun to break out but do not expect reliable results with it.

Advantages:
  • Fishious Rend is stupid
  • Diamond Storm kills the most common Desolate Land user, Ho-Oh
  • Great Speed tier, outspeeds all but 3 relevant mons (Zacian-H, Zamazenta-H, Dragapult)
Disadvantages:
  • Really frail
  • 0 Defensive utility
  • Prediction Reliant
  • Fur Coat can be rough to break
  • Matchup Reliant
  • Choice Locked

:ss/landorus-therian:

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Adaptability / Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Precipice Blades
- Dragon Ascent
- Glacial Lance / Thousand Arrows
- Trick / U-turn

This niche option is virtually the same as Groudon, except you exchange a large proportion of the bulk, the rocks resistance and 5 base attack for Flying STAB. It's cool, but it's not been seen in a while and personally I'd prefer the additional benefits that breaker Groudon offers. Flying STAB can be nice for hitting niche walls like Golisopod and as another means to not get PP stalled by Giratina, but it's not massively beneficial to how the mon functions. If anything, it makes it harder to Improof since you remove your own options.

Advantages:
  • Slightly higher speed than base 90s
  • Ground/Flying STAB is nice
  • Workable bulk
Disadvantages:
  • Flying STAB isn't massively beneficial
  • Harder to Improof than Groudon
  • Still gets Sap Spammed
  • Precipice Blades Accuracy

:ss/kyurem-white:

Kyurem-White @ Choice Specs / Choice Scarf
Ability: Refrigerate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest / Rash Nature
- Boomburst
- Dragon Energy
- Blue Flare / Explosion
- Trick / Explosion

White Kyurem, unlike it's brother, does not have a good time breaking. Whilst Choice Specs + Modest 170 Sp.Atk + Refrigerate Boomburst seems strong in theory, you must remember that the tier is littered with Steel types that do not care at all about this attack. Blue Flare has similar issues with Eternatus as coverage in that you still don't beat Scales Steels and it can miss, but Kyurem has it worse due to the only-average base speed and rocks weakness. I do not recommend using this if you want results.
Note: you can run minimum SpDef Scarf as a funny tool on Hyper Offence that maximises damage on Imposter with Dragon Energy. Once again, do not expect wins.

Advantages:
  • Probably instakilling any non-resist
  • Fair speed tier
  • Pretty good bulk
Disadvantages:
  • Does not enjoy steel types
  • Very frail
  • Poor typing for staying alive for any amount of time
  • Choice Locked
HONOURABLE MENTIONS

:mamoswine: Ground/Ice STAB is really cool, but the base 80 speed + comparatively low base stats + painful Improofing hold this back.
:dialga: Great mon, but not really used as a breaker. Magic Guard + Life Orb can do stuff but you'd probably rather use another set on Dialga.
:necrozma-dusk-mane: Dual STABS on ability-ignoring moves is cool, and the high attack is great, but the attacking types aren't tremendous.
:heatran: Magic Guard is nice because you have STAB on both Mind Blown and Steel Beam, but that's about all this has going for it.
:reshiram: Same as above, Mind Blown is strong but that's mostly everything Reshiram has.
:thundurus-therian: Specs Aerilate Boomburst is very strong and it has a crucial speed tier of 101, but otherwise offers 0 defensive utility and is only ever clicking Boomburst, Volt Switch or Trick.
:urshifu: STAB on 2 Auto-Crit moves in Wicked Blow and Storm Throw is very strong, but 0 defensive utility and a 4x fairy weakness hold it back.
:pheromosa: This thing has negative defensive utility but it's blazing speed and Fighting STAB are worth mentioning.

VERDICT

This is just intended to give some general guidance on what breakers to implement into your teambuilding - they can be hard to use if all they offer is breaking potential, which is why Xerneas, Regigigas, Eternatus and Ho-Oh are all ranked so high. These sets are by no means binding either, so feel free to experiment with other utility options, coverage moves, items or abilities. Any mons that aren't on this list aren't necessarily unviable but probably aren't recommended for use as breakers for one reason or another.

edit: fixed formatting. i spent 3 and a half hrs on this and somehow it never occurred to me that this wasn't useful in any way
View attachment 419123
On Palkia, another great set for extreme amount of power is using Mega Launcher paired with Dragon pulse and Origin pulse. The Boost given is absurd.

Origin pulse Power: 110, x1.5 (ML), x1.5(STAB), x1.2(L-orb) = 297
Dragon Pulse power: 85, x1.5 (ML), x1.5(STAB), x1.2 (L-orb) = 229.5
Coming from the bigger Spatk stat of 150 vs the 120 it is a good alt for palkia

Adapt, fishious is nearly double the power though, coming out to a staggering 408 if you move before your opponent. If not its 204. the Dragon Energy is also pretty powerful coming to 360 power but again requiring you to move first as to keep it at the 150 power.

TLDR: Adapt Palkia is brutually strong with D-Energy and Fishious although if its not outspeeding the enemy its power is effectively halved, but its still brutally strong regardless. Mega launcher is a slightly more stable set with a great amount of power. (only downside is the less power and also accuracy on the origin pulse)
 
On Palkia, another great set for extreme amount of power is using Mega Launcher paired with Dragon pulse and Origin pulse. The Boost given is absurd.

Origin pulse Power: 110, x1.5 (ML), x1.5(STAB), x1.2(L-orb) = 297
Dragon Pulse power: 85, x1.5 (ML), x1.5(STAB), x1.2 (L-orb) = 229.5
Coming from the bigger Spatk stat of 150 vs the 120 it is a good alt for palkia

Adapt, fishious is nearly double the power though, coming out to a staggering 408 if you move before your opponent. If not its 204. the Dragon Energy is also pretty powerful coming to 360 power but again requiring you to move first as to keep it at the 150 power.

TLDR: Adapt Palkia is brutually strong with D-Energy and Fishious although if its not outspeeding the enemy its power is effectively halved, but its still brutally strong regardless. Mega launcher is a slightly more stable set with a great amount of power. (only downside is the less power and also accuracy on the origin pulse)
Unfortunately, the reason mega launcher kinda sucks is because of how limited you are in moves. Relatively slow but incredibly strong breakers (G7 Pdon, Mray, Mchomp, and others come to mind alongside kyu-b) are a threat because of their immense, immediate power, with speed control being an important factor in giving them the chances to blast kids into the shadow realm. Aside from Mray, Palkia is actually the fastest in this list at base 100, letting it get the drop on xern and tying the equally massive gigas. With rather solid speed, nice defensive typing, access to strength sap (incidentally, making it better able to stand up to physical attackers even if they're faster), AND the usual speed control teammates can provide (not to mention slow pivots for momentum), there really isn't much reason to use a set that's just a weaker, non-mixed version of adapt palkia. Hitting an opponent from both sides of the spectrum on one set is massive utility in and of itself (think -atespeed + boomburst mons, cancerous shell smash sweepers, etc). Mega launcher bad busted fish move good basically
 
During the recent Nuzzle suspect I came across a few comments on Fishious Rend being potentially more problematic than paraspam. I haven't played SS BH for too long so I'm not sure how exactly I feel about it in terms of whether it is healthy or not but I think the two moves collectively give a vibe of Stakeout back in SM (which was also suspect tested and got banned) with Bolt Beak.

Stakeout back then had abusers that are far more powerful or faster than current breakers such as Pdon (not locked into Red Orb bc Stakeout was banned before it) or MMX/Y but I can understand the fact that Bolt Beak and Fischious both share this trait to an extent. This isn't like official tier meta where a set is somewhat predictable by the meta trends or the move a 'mon has an access to. If we add the fact that any boosting ability can be used for an offensive 'mon to improve the chance that they OHKO or 2HKO a specific target, then I can only imagine that teams that aren't extremely offensive by nature (like the belly drum spam team) will be forced to react reactively instead of proactively. Losing a 'mon can hurt in BH games that tend to get long so I have personally hardly seen anyone who take crazy risks staying in against a faster 'mon without information on their set. This is ultimately what I think warranted a suspect test and a ban on Stakeout in the past.

Of course Bolt Beak and Fischious Rend are nowhere as obnoxious as Stakeout to deal with but I think these still have similar mechanic as Stakeout limited to a specific move. One of the curiosities I had when I glanced over the current SS BH is why is Bolt Beak banned and Fischious Rend isn't. If Bolt Beak's mechanic itself is the problem, I think it is valid to consider pairing its availability in the metagame with Fischious Rend instead of separating them because of the different coverage.

Now don't take this as my stance on the move itself because I frankly don't mind whether it stays or not. The reason why I am bringing it up to begin with is that I am a little curious about the council's insight about Bolt Beak and Fischious Rend. If they share the idea about unhealthily punishing switches with the past council that banned Stakeout, I think it is reasonable for them to look over Bolt Beak and Fischious Rend and see if they really share similar problems as Stakeout did in the past. Regardless of what the council thinks about the moves I think comparison to Stakeout can be a reasonable approach.

On the other note, interesting arguments that I personally heard from those who dislike Fischious Rend are equivalent or similar to:
- The moves threatening a KO against a 'mon on the field and a non resistant switch-in (which is a differentiating factor from Stakeout)
- The moves in original game are only distributed to 'mon with middling offensive stats and Speed meaning they will be forced to rely on weather or an item to circumvent these issues, which isn't really the case for BH because they can be slapped on anyone so as long as they aren't banned
 
During the recent Nuzzle suspect I came across a few comments on Fishious Rend being potentially more problematic than paraspam. I haven't played SS BH for too long so I'm not sure how exactly I feel about it in terms of whether it is healthy or not but I think the two moves collectively give a vibe of Stakeout back in SM (which was also suspect tested and got banned) with Bolt Beak.

Stakeout back then had abusers that are far more powerful or faster than current breakers such as Pdon (not locked into Red Orb bc Stakeout was banned before it) or MMX/Y but I can understand the fact that Bolt Beak and Fischious both share this trait to an extent. This isn't like official tier meta where a set is somewhat predictable by the meta trends or the move a 'mon has an access to. If we add the fact that any boosting ability can be used for an offensive 'mon to improve the chance that they OHKO or 2HKO a specific target, then I can only imagine that teams that aren't extremely offensive by nature (like the belly drum spam team) will be forced to react reactively instead of proactively. Losing a 'mon can hurt in BH games that tend to get long so I have personally hardly seen anyone who take crazy risks staying in against a faster 'mon without information on their set. This is ultimately what I think warranted a suspect test and a ban on Stakeout in the past.

Of course Bolt Beak and Fischious Rend are nowhere as obnoxious as Stakeout to deal with but I think these still have similar mechanic as Stakeout limited to a specific move. One of the curiosities I had when I glanced over the current SS BH is why is Bolt Beak banned and Fischious Rend isn't. If Bolt Beak's mechanic itself is the problem, I think it is valid to consider pairing its availability in the metagame with Fischious Rend instead of separating them because of the different coverage.

Now don't take this as my stance on the move itself because I frankly don't mind whether it stays or not. The reason why I am bringing it up to begin with is that I am a little curious about the council's insight about Bolt Beak and Fischious Rend. If they share the idea about unhealthily punishing switches with the past council that banned Stakeout, I think it is reasonable for them to look over Bolt Beak and Fischious Rend and see if they really share similar problems as Stakeout did in the past. Regardless of what the council thinks about the moves I think comparison to Stakeout can be a reasonable approach.

On the other note, interesting arguments that I personally heard from those who dislike Fischious Rend are equivalent or similar to:
- The moves threatening a KO against a 'mon on the field and a non resistant switch-in (which is a differentiating factor from Stakeout)
- The moves in original game are only distributed to 'mon with middling offensive stats and Speed meaning they will be forced to rely on weather or an item to circumvent these issues, which isn't really the case for BH because they can be slapped on anyone so as long as they aren't banned
the reason why fish isnt bannned is because there is no good abusers of the move on the other hand eleki existed and krom existed both power houses with transistor or adaptability and choice band or Life orb and the electirc stab invalidated alot of mons from existing like cram or ho-oh it made switching in really hard unless you ran a ground, while fish only hits ho-oh for really rough damage but most run deso land anyways so that doesnt matter fish is the really crippled step son of the stake out moves oh also bolt beam is bs and zacian-crowned is a super bs mon

:ss/zacian-crowned::ss/zekrom::ss/regieleki:
 
Unfortunately, the reason mega launcher kinda sucks is because of how limited you are in moves. Relatively slow but incredibly strong breakers (G7 Pdon, Mray, Mchomp, and others come to mind alongside kyu-b) are a threat because of their immense, immediate power, with speed control being an important factor in giving them the chances to blast kids into the shadow realm. Aside from Mray, Palkia is actually the fastest in this list at base 100, letting it get the drop on xern and tying the equally massive gigas. With rather solid speed, nice defensive typing, access to strength sap (incidentally, making it better able to stand up to physical attackers even if they're faster), AND the usual speed control teammates can provide (not to mention slow pivots for momentum), there really isn't much reason to use a set that's just a weaker, non-mixed version of adapt palkia. Hitting an opponent from both sides of the spectrum on one set is massive utility in and of itself (think -atespeed + boomburst mons, cancerous shell smash sweepers, etc). Mega launcher bad busted fish move good basically
I would Respect your argument that Mega Launcher limits your moves but so does Adaptability, but in a far less sense then ML. Only reason you'd use it on Palkia is for the reasons I've listed, Palkia to my knowledge is pretty much the only mon in BH that can take full advantage of ML due to his typing, again, if you're going for a physical set or mixed set with sheer power, Adaptability is a better choice because of fishious rend and dragon energy, but they only work if you move first. The ML set is purely for sustainable use as a special attacker.
 
Another Reason why Paralysis needs to be restricted the only reason i lost was because of paralysis. This is getting out of hand with how bad it is, this literally is momentum shifting in how powerful this fucking status is. for anyone claiming that aromatherapy is a counter to this, watch this battle and tell me if you still think it works. For those of you claiming a ground type would've done anything, His Calyrex would've OHKO it. Remove this shit because the Suspect test doesn't work, people who abuse Paralysis won't bother with the test because they actively benefit from it. (No disrespect to my opponent.)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1605965051
 
Another Reason why Paralysis needs to be restricted the only reason i lost was because of paralysis. This is getting out of hand with how bad it is, this literally is momentum shifting in how powerful this fucking status is. for anyone claiming that aromatherapy is a counter to this, watch this battle and tell me if you still think it works. For those of you claiming a ground type would've done anything, His Calyrex would've OHKO it. Remove this shit because the Suspect test doesn't work, people who abuse Paralysis won't bother with the test because they actively benefit from it. (No disrespect to my opponent.)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1605965051
to be completely honest there were other reasons you lost that match for one and i think it really hurt your chances of winning was not understanding what mons match up favorably with other mons. for one switching ho-oh into Glance, you let the mon with taunt get into a battle with the one that needs status's weird button clicks like Tkick into eterna, another is your team building is very odd. alot of mons just feel like you just threw darts at a board and said "yeah this probs works". nuzzle on the other had is in a very weird state on one hand i agree with you it is very unhealthy, on the other the format cant really get away without it as offensive threats like eterna just take the game if left unchecked with no way to stop it in its tracks. one of the biggest reasons i voted DNB. the format would ultimately be left in a healthier state with than without.

one of the best ways to get better at the game is to blame yourself first and the meta second.
 
to be completely honest there were other reasons you lost that match for one and i think it really hurt your chances of winning was not understanding what mons match up favorably with other mons. for one switching ho-oh into Glance, you let the mon with taunt get into a battle with the one that needs status's weird button clicks like Tkick into eterna, another is your team building is very odd. alot of mons just feel like you just threw darts at a board and said "yeah this probs works". nuzzle on the other had is in a very weird state on one hand i agree with you it is very unhealthy, on the other the format cant really get away without it as offensive threats like eterna just take the game if left unchecked with no way to stop it in its tracks. one of the biggest reasons i voted DNB. the format would ultimately be left in a healthier state with than without.

one of the best ways to get better at the game is to blame yourself first and the meta second.
My team isn't normal by any means, my teams are designed to directly combat the cheese within this metagame, Its why the sets are so strange and why im not using conventional sets. The reason i said Nuzzle was so impactful in that game is because there is no existing counter for nuzzle when the user of said nuzzle can easily ohko the pokemon youre gonna use to counter Nuzzle. Thats why it should be restricted. i'm fully aware when i matched with LOSR it was going to be rough because i know who he is, The problem is that he also is i believe to be 1500+ on his main and he was smurfing (not throwing shade because smurfing in showdown is fine imo, Ask people in Gen6ph alot of them have alts to climb ladder.) I'm aware that yes, nuzzle wasn't the entire reason i lost, but it played a huge factor in the battle, Paralysis saved him at least 3 times within the battle itself. I understand blaming myself yes and getting better, I'm just saying this is getting nuts with how spammed this is getting. Nuzzle based teams are getting more common and there is little to do with how much momentum is gained by just using a move.
 
feel like this has been a long time coming, and talking about something to do with tiering action during a suspect isn't ideal, but i thought i'd give my piece on something that i honestly think is more problematic than anything currently in the tier
:snorlax: Belly Drum :azumarill:
View attachment 430817
simply put: i don't think this move is balanced. this is for a number of reasons.
  • first off, instant +6 (which is actually +12 so you can get topsied and still go back to +6 on the second drum) should be a red flag in and of itself, especially given the fact that this boosts all of the god moves that people enjoy complaining about (rend, v-create, glance, etc) and the fact that we're in BH so everything is still bulky as shit, even when injured by the HP reduction.
  • second, the counterplay against drum tends to be both poor and dependent on the drum matchup, which is made worse by the fact that the 2 main forms of drum (unburden and -ate/triage) share completely independent forms of counterplay, not to mention the variation between these such as giratina beating triage kart but not -atespeeds, unaware/fc "answering" unburdens except dusk mane / kartana, you get the idea. i think, for it's power and the lack of options against it that can easily be fit on the average team (unaware is piss poor and having fc on every team is highly restricting + still a drummer fish), drum is an issue (hell, even getting a bad prank matchup, which is supposed to be the drum counter, can just be an L).
  • furthermore, the reasons for not wanting it gone being "just don't let it drum" is unrealistic in the same sense that "oh just don't get para'd" is, and there really isn't anyone i've spoke to who actively thinks drum is a healthy addition to the tier / has any other arguments for keeping drum free. as stated above counterplay is also dependent on the drummer which, due to the sheer amount of things that can drum, isn't very good
unless you have the matchup win you're also going to struggle a lot against dedicated drumspam + good player just because you probably lack the tools to be as secure as you'd like and can get forced into a flowcharted sequence of responses pretty reliably. there's a good deal of teams that just have an unwinnable drum MU because they don't hard prep for it (in spite of said teams being very good otherwise) which isn't fun either.

(also, sidenote: i now realise the mistake i said here in saying that beak would be unproblematic in current meta, keep this shit gone (even before loser's post i was sat there thinking "what mug wrote this? oh yeah"))

tl;dr - drum is not ok why are we only realising this 2 and a half years on
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1561749157

6-0 and he was drum spamming. Aergyl is not in the slightest bad and is quite skilled yet the tactic failed.
IMO Nuzzle is more bullshit then belly drum spam, only reason drum spam is a problem is if you aren't using something to counter it. Letting someone drum up isn't even an issue if the counter just memes on it in the first place. Imposter i've come to terms with because it counters boosting.
 
My team isn't normal by any means, my teams are designed to directly combat the cheese within this metagame, Its why the sets are so strange and why im not using conventional sets. The reason i said Nuzzle was so impactful in that game is because there is no existing counter for nuzzle when the user of said nuzzle can easily ohko the pokemon youre gonna use to counter Nuzzle. Thats why it should be restricted. i'm fully aware when i matched with LOSR it was going to be rough because i know who he is, The problem is that he also is i believe to be 1500+ on his main and he was smurfing (not throwing shade because smurfing in showdown is fine imo, Ask people in Gen6ph alot of them have alts to climb ladder.) I'm aware that yes, nuzzle wasn't the entire reason i lost, but it played a huge factor in the battle, Paralysis saved him at least 3 times within the battle itself. I understand blaming myself yes and getting better, I'm just saying this is getting nuts with how spammed this is getting. Nuzzle based teams are getting more common and there is little to do with how much momentum is gained by just using a move.
my guy that wasnt even the real loser that was someone impersonating them????

and again there is a lack of counter play that ive mentioned in my other posts regarding nuzzle, but that isnt the issue here its that there was more to blame on that match up then nuzzle, like i said if they didnt have nuzzle you most likely would have still lost. bringing teams that lose to meta and wondering why it lost to meta is a little ridiculous to me. and if its to combat the cheese most meta strats do that anyways as mentioned in tea's post.

yes nuzzle grants alot of momentum and yes the 1/4 is unhealthy when most metagames ban the 10% items. Im fairly against nuzzle in it's current state. but a metagame without nuzzle would be far worse than one with. one of the suggestions i brought was a Glance ban but like really idk if that would fix nuzzle. ultimately it creates a healthier format with enough skilled counter play to justify it existing.
 

cityscapes

Take care of yourself.
is a Tiering Contributoris a Community Contributor Alumnus
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1561749157

6-0 and he was drum spamming. Aergyl is not in the slightest bad and is quite skilled yet the tactic failed.
IMO Nuzzle is more bullshit then belly drum spam, only reason drum spam is a problem is if you aren't using something to counter it. Letting someone drum up isn't even an issue if the counter just memes on it in the first place. Imposter i've come to terms with because it counters boosting.
very illuminating that the drum replay you posted features zamac critting thunderous kick and hitting 3 moves thru para to win. the problem i have with drum is that any hax that happens gets amplified, and there really isn't much you can do about it.

Turn 1
The opposing Pheromosa used Belly Drum!
(The opposing Pheromosa lost 50% of its health!)
The opposing Pheromosa cut its own HP and maximized its Attack!
(The opposing Pheromosa ate its Sitrus Berry!)
The opposing Pheromosa restored HP using its Sitrus Berry!

Rainbow Wind Chime used Sacred Fire!
The opposing Pheromosa avoided the attack!
this kills me. so basically im just down a mon on turn 1 from missing one move

normally when you get lucked, the position is still playable in some way. your opponent doesn't have a healthy +6 mon on the field, not to mention you don't even have to risk your important mons in the first place (a luxury you never have vs drum, because switching vs it is death and it just eats your bad mons).

you can't claim that all hax is equal or part of the game or whatever when one crit is my stupid prank that i don't need vs balance getting banished to the shadow realm, and another crit is a drummer ohkoing my fc sap user causing me to lose immediately. it seems silly to me that we treat this differently from like minimize or whatever when the effects are in practice the exact same (hell, i would rather play against minimize than this)

like if you look at the nuzzle replay in comparison, i can point out at which point you were obviously lost (probably when lunala came in and searched fruitlessly for ghost resists), but the position was kinda gradually deteriorating throughout the game and you were never really fighting for an advantage. each full para gave your opponent a bit more progress. your team had nothing to make progress faster because you were super focused on not getting cheesed instead of just winning. that isn't "hax", that's the team only having countermeasures for the worst/cheesiest ways of accelerating progress.

i'm not even presuming to have a 200 iq opinion on nuzzle because i haven't played against any strong nuzzle team in a while, i just think drum being "easier to counter" is a silly way to put it. from my perspective the entire reason you're losing to nuzzle is because prepping so hard for setup cheese left your team with a ton of weaknesses.
 

Tea Guzzler

forever searching for a 10p freddo
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I'm just going to add on from the above post:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1561749157

6-0 and he was drum spamming. Aergyl is not in the slightest bad and is quite skilled yet the tactic failed.
IMO Nuzzle is more bullshit then belly drum spam, only reason drum spam is a problem is if you aren't using something to counter it. Letting someone drum up isn't even an issue if the counter just memes on it in the first place. Imposter i've come to terms with because it counters boosting.
Nobody's denying that counterplay for drum exists - it does. The conflict here is that, if you choose to use this counterplay, then the mons in question are pretty bad against everything else. As city's stated, you've gone too deep in setup spam prep leaving you open to "regular" teams - the likewise would be true, if you were to prep your team for the "average" enemy team then you're likely not carrying enough drum counterplay. This is what i'm getting at in terms of drum being problematic, because it can single-handedly invalidate good teams and the counterplay for it and the rest of the tier is completely different. Take some below examples:

:bw/giratina:

Giratina @ Griseous Orb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Spectral Thief
- Haze
- Roost
- Core Enforcer

Most people would argue that this is one of the strongest safety nets against drumspam. However, corresponding to the above concept, this is really not that good into standard teams - it's slow, passive, gives free entry to Xerneas, gets pivoted on for 0 cost and gets memed on because it's a fat dragon without any coverage.
Take another:

:bw/dialga:

Dialga @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Relaxed Nature
- Anchor Shot
- Core Enforcer
- Topsy-Turvy
- Roost

This will eat the majority of drum users for breakfast thanks to Unaware completely negating the boosts, as well as the steel typing carrying the resist to NDM's Photon and Sunsteel. However, it shouldn't take a trained eye to identify that this is a tragic set that will do next to nothing for you in the majority of games and in said majority is almost a completely dead slot.

You can see the issue i'm getting at - answering both drum and standard teams does not tend to work well and trying to do so will usually detract from you having a good team against either.

As for the nuzzle replay you're entirely crutching on a mon which is itself vulnerable to nuzzle to clear it from your side of the field, whilst also only having 1 absorber in Ho-Oh (which why are you running T-Orb Magic Guard when Aromatherapy's just going to cleanse the poison anyway) and poor hazard removal in a fire-weak slow defog. You loaded complete status-move reliance into taunt which is just an L regardless, and there's no point complaining if you get Zama-C glared for no good reason and then complain when paralysis happens. Losing one game to something you underprepared for and then using that as grounds for a ban/restriction is also just really bad justification imo
 

shadowpea

everyone is lonely sometimes
is a Tiering Contributor
alright, about time for me to make a post

Another Reason why Paralysis needs to be restricted the only reason i lost was because of paralysis. This is getting out of hand with how bad it is, this literally is momentum shifting in how powerful this fucking status is. for anyone claiming that aromatherapy is a counter to this, watch this battle and tell me if you still think it works. For those of you claiming a ground type would've done anything, His Calyrex would've OHKO it. Remove this shit because the Suspect test doesn't work, people who abuse Paralysis won't bother with the test because they actively benefit from it. (No disrespect to my opponent.)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1605965051
confirming that this is, infact, not the real A LOSR (duh) but instead me on an alt. why? cause i was feeling particularly stupid that day and loser was the only person i see on the ladder off a non-obvious alt (well skylake too but he's loads less fun to impersonate. what am i going to call myself, SuperSkylaker?). i never actually expected a replay of this to be posted on smogon forums, much less on a **serious** post. aside from that i still dont see how i couldve been mistaken for loser even with that alt since i play far worse than he does. (hopefully loser is not offended by any of this :bloblul:)

also i stole cityscapes' team from the post ompl thread because i can. (i will however file a complaint to cityscapes as my zap cannons have around 10% accuracy and magma storms 25%, set did not work as well as advertised, 2/5 stars.)

i might as well keep talking while im at it

nuzzle: i dont particularly care about what happens to it, the metagame right now is fine as it is and there's plenty of counterplay to nuzzle. obviously one mon cant singlehandedly take care of every nuzzle user, an example being ground types being unable to properly deal with nuzzle ice rider/palk/etc, but between grounds, poison heal, heal bell and misc paralysis checks like flame orb abilities nuzzle is fine. worst comes to worst teams should have a proper paralysis absorber if things go south anyway, such as in the beginning of a game when your phealer's orb havent been activated yet.

however i cant see how the meta can get too much worse if we ban nuzzle as long as we ban drum along with it so as i said i dont really care if it eventually gets banned. (though its here to stay anyway after the suspect)

drum: being forced to deal with random +6 mons is kinda ludicrous and players shouldnt have to weaken their structures to shore up the drum matchup. drumspam/random drummers on ho are matchup fishy and annoying but dont warrent a ban by themselves since every tier has a few matchup fishy archetypes, the problem arises when you slap a random drummer on your average team and randomly ice games with it (see here). im pretty much parroting what alot of others are saying about this already but im firmly on the "ban drum" side. unfortunately this would mean that sevag's drumspam team becomes illegal which means that this team loses its purpose but it is what it is.

on flare boost:

first, i would like to say flare boost is a beautiful ability, shame its stuck on drifblim in standard play and most mons coincidentally have better options in bh. anyone remember this post? neither do i until city brought np flare boost etern (SOVEREIGN CITIZEN) in ompl and my undersized brain realized that its pretty much simpleplot etern after a boost in terms of damage output (sans boosting items for the simpleplot set).

solely focusing on this vs simpleplot:

:ss/eternatus: :ss/spectrier:

Eternatus @ Flame Orb
Ability: Flare Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Sludge Bomb / Core Enforcer
- Earth Power / Blue Flare
- Recover / Strength Sap / Blue Flare / whichever STAB you are missing

Spectrier @ Flame Orb
Ability: Flare Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Moongeist Beam / Astral Barrage
- Focus Blast / Secret Sword
- Strength Sap / Astral Barrage

(yall should know what the simpleplot versions should look like)

flare boost
- more damage output unboosted (consequently it fares better against pranksters)
- pseudo status immunity
- more damage output if you are allowed more than one np
- cares less about its item after its been activated
- much easier to improof since you're only dealing with a (potential) +2 imp instead of a +4 one. (a neat difference between flare boost and guts is that flare boost is only triggered by burn so you can status (read: paralyze) the impostor and not get chunked by boosted attacks)

simple
- not on a timer for existing / constantly forced to heal
- more freedom to run another attack or utility because of above
- can run an actual item
- sappers get basically neutered against this in a 1v1

from this we can probably conclude on big mons like etern who appreciates its defensive utility on top of its offensive power, simpleplot is often for choice since you have much more longetivity and can get away with 3 attacks (since you have black sludge/lefties backing you up). however if you take a mon with relatively little defensive utility and doesn't need as much coverage like spectrier, flare boost can be seriously worth considering because you get to switch into nuzzles/glares, be more of an immediate threat, and be less of a nightmare to improof. that's not to say that either one is definately for choice for either type of wallbreaker but flare boost definately have quite a bit of merit especially in this paralysis-infested metagame. this isnt even getting to other flare boost sets like quiver dance or utility attacker sets, though admittedly those have a lot more competition in the metagame mainly from poison heal.

Ask people in Gen6ph alot of them have alts to climb ladder.
funny thing that same day i decided to try oras ph and decided i like it and would rather not climb the latter from near-rock-bottom again so ANOTHER LOSR is now my oras ph account until further notice
 

Storm Eagle

Banned deucer.
I want to make a rather unique take here. But before I do, I want to briefly discuss Belly Drum. I'm not going to waste anyone's time here, and I'm going to get straight to the point. Belly Drum should be suspected or even quickbanned from Balanced Hackmons. During the recent suspect test, many accounts got their requirements through sevag's drumspam team, which is fucking ridiculous from my point of view given how long so many notable BH players have gone on to point out Belly Drum as an issue over this generation with no official response. I did not have the time to get reqs myself since I had to tend to my father for some health issues, but when I had the chance to play, I consistently saw multiple active accounts running sevag's team or variants of it which had consistent success against all teams except for those with the odd FC Gira + Prank. I truly believe those people managed to get requirements given how fast they were climbing the ladder, and it was consistent with every single account I encountered. At what point does something become too much when people use a BH Council member's team as a fast track to suspect reqs? I almost don't respect it for that reason alone.

I have had a very unusual point of view regarding the metagame which I was encouraged by some Smogon users to make a full post about. While I do believe Drum should be banned, the majority of this post will be dedicated to outlining two Pokemon whom I believe to be problematic for BH8.

That's right. I believe both Eternatus and Zamazenta-Crowned to be incredibly overcentralizing and unhealthy. I have believed this since the start of the metagame, but did not share it since I thought it to be unorthodox. But as time passes on, I am more and more convinced this is the case. And to an extent, I believe they alone are the reason paraspam is such an issue to begin with. I also somewhat believe that if Nuzzle were to be banned, they would become even more banworthy. I also believe that Unburden Drum is common specifically because of these two. Why exactly do I believe this for both Pokemon?

:zamazenta-crowned:
Facts:
  • Zamazenta-Crowned is the best Steel-type in the metagame, and always has been. To compare it to other Steels like Melmetal is disingenuous, because everyone recommends a spot specifically for Zamazenta on teams when possible, while other Steel-types serve more niche roles due to their Fairy or other added resistances. In Gen 7 BH, there was never a "best" Steel-type. No, Registeel wasn't the "best". You had a wide variety of Steel-types to pick from, and one consistent trait about all of them was that they lacked in one stat, be it speed or offenses. Most of them were passive, and those that weren't like Dusk Mane were slow. Most mons were either strictly offensive or defensive.
  • Zamazenta-Crowned is the fastest Pokemon in the metagame except for Barraskewda and Zacian. It is fast enough that it does not have to worry about anything outspeeding it except for skewda. It can run a neutral nature without issue if the set in question isn't concerned about Eternatus.
  • Zamazenta-Crowned has greater bulk than Registeel with the Fighting-type to allow it to pressure opponents with ease.
  • Thunderous Kick is an amazing STAB, and Zamazenta can run pure offensive lure sets to great success, given ladder heroes like using Drum Zama so much.
  • On the flipside, Zamazenta has STAB Anchor Shot and can defeat opponents through passive methods as well, and has resulted in Shed Shell being significantly more common through its presence alone.
  • Rusted Shield provides it a special immunity to Trick and Switcheroo, which the only other Pokemon that gets that luxury is Giratina.
  • Zamazenta-Crowned has top tier defenses, rock solid offenses due to its type and available STAB, and outspeeds 95%+ of the metagame.
  • Due to the above, Zamazenta-Crowned has as many sets as Mega Rayquaza from Gen 7 BH. Trading special attack for defenses lets it accomplish that. It is quite possibly the most flexible Pokemon we have available.
Zamazenta specifically is an incredibly brazen Pokemon since there is no single check for it besides Groudon, and Zamazenta can quite easily lure in Groudon only to set up an easy KO, be it through breaking it via Drums or Primordial Sea Fishious Rend. I've even seen cityscapes manage to beat my Groudon sets repeatedly using a Pressure stall Zamazenta, which literally only works because of Zamazenta's speed tier. Many players have resorted to hard paraspam because of this, as otherwise games end up stalling to unreasonable lengths with its presence. Even if you win the battle, unless you can defeat the Zamazenta, it's going to be a long and painful stall war. This isn't just my problem. I've seen this so many times through so many other players. Low ladder players can't beat Zamazenta without literally defeating the other 5 pokemon first. Mid ladder can't deal with all Zamazenta sets efficiently, and it's a long uphill battle when you or your opponent has one. People like city and MAMP can innovate enough to make even high ladder have trouble taking care of it with standard teams.

:eternatus:
Facts:
  • Eternatus, not unlike Zamazenta, is the best Dragon-type there is. Now to anyone who is a BH veteran knows that this statement has a higher burden of proof than "best Steel-type". Eternatus has a worse secondary type than Zamazenta, but coverage lets it reasonably cover that up. Eternatus has played roles that all major Dragons have. It can be a furscales mon, it does regenerator sets well, but its famous Dragon's Maw, Simple, and Sniper sets lend it another facet of its overall role. The closest Dragon-type to Eternatus I would say is Palkia, which lacks the speed and defenses that Eternatus does, even though Palkia does run defensive abilities on some sets.
  • Eternatus is almost identical to Zamazenta in speed, often using positive speed natures to outspeed Zamazenta. But it still doesn't have to worry about other mons speed and can run neutral nature if it so desires.
  • Eternatus' bulk is harder to conceptualize, but it is approximately identical to Zamazenta-Crowned; Zamazenta usually runs neutral natures to buff its defenses, so it is skewed towards Zamazenta. Etern's defenses are overall lower, but a higher HP beats higher defenses.
  • Eternatus also has greater bulk than Registeel, but it is almost as powerful as Dialga, Palkia, Reshiram, etc. Its Poison typing is worse than Fighting, but can be used to different effect as Corrosion is a set that exists and the typical Sludge Bomb can get some free poisons on some opponents.
  • Eternatus does not have quite as good STAB as Zamazenta, but it has one severely underrated trump card: Final Gambit. Final Gambit is fucking ridiculous. Eternatus can obliterate checks to it with ease, and most good players agree it doesn't even need a dedicated recovery move to do that as Black Sludge over the course of the battle can put Eternatus right back into a threatening position. What's more egregious about this is that Eternatus and Xerneas both often share the same checks. A Zamazenta with Ice Scales can stop both hard, but if you Gambit it, Xerneas is free to run amok. An enemy Ho-Oh? Gone. Magearna isn't even a factor with it. Even my best team utilizes this to such a sickening extent.
  • Black Sludge isn't quite as effective as Rusted Shield, but still punishes Trick and Switcheroo nonetheless, and is the only Pokemon to do so as other Poison types are niche to straight up unviable.
  • Eternatus is also passively powerful through status, and can still threaten other pokemon with defensive sets, even though it isn't quite as effective as Zamazenta at doing that.
  • Whereas Zamazenta is better defensively, Eternatus is better offensively. Eternatus has so many sets that it is an incredible burden to teambuilding to compensate for them all, because even if you attempt to do so, you simply don't check Final Gambit. Even Imposter is risky, since it is very disincentivized to come in without pivoting support as Core Enforcer/Dragon Energy/Clanging Scales will easily chunk even an Eviolite Chansey. Meanwhile, Imposter usually doesn't utilize Final Gambit since it's always worse for it than Eternatus itself, as the Eternatus player can form creative gameplans and team synergies to specifically avoid Gambit from being an issue.
  • Eternatus is pretty much identical to Zamazenta stat wise, if not outright better to an extent. It also walls, outspeeds, and can break 95%+ of the metagame.
  • Eternatus generally has less sets than Zamazenta, but it compensates through those sets being much more powerful in general.
There is almost no reason to use most Dragon-types over Eternatus unless the typing absolutely calls for it, like in Giratina or Dialga's case. Which is roughly identical to Zamazenta's situation. What makes Eternatus especially egregious is the fact that anyone with Eternatus in always has momentum and can control the flow of the game, even if they're using a defensive set, since most players will respond defensively to Eternatus' presence and as such give the advantage to the one with Etern currently out. Eternatus sharing the same checks as Xerneas shouldn't be understated, and is a large part as to why I believe Xerneas to be so powerful right now. Etern can build around those checks so Xerneas doesn't have to. It's also that Final Gambit is borderline uncompetitive to me given how the user can force the game to shift in his favor without any counterplay beyond scouting. Sure, Imposter can scout Eternatus, but the latter player can just play the long game and if he gets a favorable Gambit, you lose on the spot. But Eternatus doesn't even need Final Gambit to be threatening. Its combination of setup, Poison typing, and wallbreaking potential leads it to a spot where it can easily get one ko even if the opponent has a check, since its very difficult to stop Eternatus' momentum due to its lightning fast speed.

I've found both mons to be overcentalizing over the course of Gen 8 BH, and I believe the metagame in general to be backsliding because everyone is running paraspam and drumspam specifically because its the easiest way to take care of the both of these mons. They are the bulkiest pokemon, as fast as Mega Gengar was, and they have the tools available to make a formidable offense all at the same time. They quite literally don't have a weakness in any form. It's constantly an uphill battle beating both of them, and they are often the reason balance vs balance games can go north of 100 turns.

So what action do I believe to be taken? I think both pokemon should be suspected. But I also would not write off the idea of quickbanning the other should one get banned, as I believe both mons to be checks of each other to an extent, and without one or the other, they would be immediately banworthy. If I had to say which pokemon I thought was more problematic, I would say it is Zamazenta-Crowned. Zamazenta has a larger effect on the meta as a whole, and the ladder as a whole struggles more with Zamazenta than Eternatus. Eternatus is a mon I believe to be banworthy through its effect on high ladder, whereas Zamazenta is a consistent negative presence on all stages of ladder. Zamazenta is also currently the number 1 pokemon in terms of usage, which aligns with my statements.

It is my hope that my experience with BH and my community status will not allow this to fall to the side or get disregarded. I do not make unorthodox claims when it comes to Balanced Hackmons. When I have an observation, I will bring it up should I feel like action should be taken. Until recently I was not confident in my ability to speak on the meta as a whole, and refrained from posting. But even as I gained experience and was doing battles with other Smogon users, my conclusion on those pokemon has always remained the same: They are problematic. I honestly feel like I didn't go in depth enough with these pokemon, but I don't think writing an entire essay on the both of them is warranted or wanted by the community. I obviously don't think they're like Zacian-Crowned or Mega Rayquaza. And I don't want to come off as that idiot who always complains about Landorus-Therian being Ubers worthy. I believed these Pokemon to have a negative effect on the meta, even indirectly (paraspam), and brought them up for a discussion.
 

Balanced Fuckmon

I COULD BE BANNED!
Nuzzle can be countered by Poison Heal, Zygarde, Regieleki, Zekrom or Heal Bell
Belly Drum can be countered by Extreme Speed with -ate bonus, Choice item-forced Trick, Prankster, Unaware (not all the time) or Haze (Taunt makes it unavailable, Magic Bounce is the way to go)

Almost all the time I use Choice Specs Eternatus or Choice Scarf Palkia as a lead and when I sense a Belly Drum user first thing I do is tricking. If you manage to deal damage to BD Regigigas before he uses the move, AFAIK Mild Xerneas can take %25 HP of Regigigas with ExSpeed
Regigigas is also a nice counter to Nuzzle since if you know which mon can use Nuzzle, you can play around of it most of the time or double switch to gain advantage.

This is called meta. It shifts, if you are struggling against a move, produce a "creative" countermove. Hyper offensive mons with Trick also do good against passive mons, even if you manage to give Prankster Giratina/Registeel a Choice Scarf you can at least have your hazards for few turns.

Both of the solutions I mentioned above synergises beatifully with other team compositions (I know Trick doesn't fit to stall teams but Topsy-Turvy with Magic Bounce works, moreover it can be unpredictable sometimes, wasting enemy's Taunt move and learning about and I want you to remember, I topped BH ladder twice last year.

TL;DR: A composition is giving you trouble? Generate an answer that doesn't mess up with your team organisation.
 

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