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That's the thing though, the only reason it should ever be used is if it's on a Stall team, which although it is very viable and can get free wins, it's less common than Balanced and Offensive / Swift Swim. The same thing was said about Alomomola, another Pokemon that's usually only seen on Stall teams but is B Rank. However if one was to use Alomomola or Quagsire outside of Stall, Alomomola is definitely able to provide more and can do something no other Water-type can do and that's to pass a huge Wish and be an amazing defensive pivot thanks to Regenerator, while instead of Quagsire, another physically defensive Pokemon can be used that can complete multiple roles such as Rotom-W and Swampert.There's a huge difference in Ludicolo/Seismitoad and Quagsire.
Those two SS mons are outclassed by things like Kingdra and Mega-Swampert, mons that are in B rank.There isn't a replacement for Quagsire on Stall. If anything, it outclasses something like Gastrodon in the sense that both are bulky water/ground types with reliable recovery.
The comparison with Ludicolo and Seismitoad is equally as poor as the Swampert comparison in my opinion and isn't a good reason to move this down.
I completely disagree with your statement for Cloyster. You can run both it and Lapras/Walrein, yes they share the same typing, but they play very different roles. So your argument there is invalid. Not to mention, it's actually a pretty decent Breloom check thanks to Icicle Spear. Also, your forgetting 2 matchup cloyster plays a huge role in, Fire. All of the types you mention cloyster has little effect on, Ice already has an edge against those, but Fire, that's a different story. Yea, Walrein is resistant to it, but it's not gonna take repeated Fire STAB attacks in the sun, or Solar Beam forever. Cloyster is able to sweep the type (or at least it's one of the best options there is). Fire is an offensive type that's often hard to wall (let alone the worst defensive type in the game), you need to apply pressure, which Cloyster ALONG WITH Kyurem B does a great job doing. Take this from someone who actually plays with Ice, and believe me when I say it is A ranked.Posting my thoughts on a pair of mons:
(Ice) A--->B: While being a strong sweeper, I have 2 problems with cloyster which make me think it could be B rank (i'm not talking about the spikes set here, I find it painfully outclassed by froslass which at least can thunderwave or bring something down with the bond):
- Using Cloyster means you are forgetting the far more useful tanking abilities of Walrein or Lapras, read: you are literally forfeiting to mega scizor or steel atacks (not that u had that much chances to begin with, but using cloyster u are killing the few chances u had)
- The second reason is: while cloyster is a nice sweeper, the only matchups where it bright is again types where ice have already the advantage (dragon, ground, flying sort of), while all the other types have 1 or other way to stop it easily on its tracks, the only notable exception is again fire where cloyster does a great job given the right circunstances, but again u could just run scarfed Kyurem-B with does good, if not better again fire.
In short, I find Cloyster adds nothing to the table when talking about matchups and u are better running Kyurem-B or even mega Glalie if you need a physical hitter. Put it on B
(Water) A--->B: Same like n64lord, I have tested myself the wonders of Reflect Type Starmie, and can say thats is a very viable set as well. First of all, Starmie is 1 of the few hazard control mons of water (the others being tentacruel and empoleon). It differentiate itself from the rest in it have reliabe recovery. Not only that, Natural cure to act like a status absorber, and scald the best move in the game, and finally the cherry in the top, Reflect Type alow it to win 1vs1 again threats like ferrothorn, tyranitar, charizard-y, etc.
Coupling this set with the offensive spinner set and you see why Starmie is a solid A rank.
Scp I think you put us in a tough spot when you compared stall to SS because on paper that makes a lot of sense and on paper it would merit a B rank for quag. However, I honestly don't think stall water is on the same level of effectiveness as SS. There was an initial shock when Thimo introduced the meta to the style and that initial shock ended awhile ago. It's just not that good anymore and it isn't something that performs particularly well on the higher ladder whereas SS is a very good style that has proven to be one of the most consistent styles to use in tours and on the ladder.I don't have time to post on all of them, but I wanted to take a minute to post on Quagsire. I think it should stay in B rank.
People's arguments to move it down have centered around two things: 1) It requires significant team support, and 2) Swampert.
I supported the move for Alo b/c it was a 'mon that enables a particular style of Water team, much like the SS mons. In the same sense that you don't want to play SS without Kingdra or Politoed, you wouldn't want to stall without Quagsire or Alo. The key premise of Stall is that the entire team supports one another very well, thus it isn't surprising that "Quagsire needs lots of support to be effective".
While it isn't what it used to be, Stall Water is still very viable in our metagame. The initial stages of the ladder tour show people think they can use it for easy wins against the ladder (which is probably true). Thus, I don't think we should move one of the most important 'mons from this playstyle down to C rank when the rest of the team sits in S/A/B.
In light of Quagsire's primary role being on Stall Water, Swampert is really an irrelevant comparison. I completely agree that Swampert is generally a more viable 'mon—its A-level ranking reflects that. However, Swampert lacks reliable recovery and does little to help with setup sweepers, which makes Quagsire the preferred Water/Ground for Stall.
Hi there man, about your points:I completely disagree with your statement for Cloyster. You can run both it and Lapras/Walrein, yes they share the same typing, but they play very different roles. So your argument there is invalid. Not to mention, it's actually a pretty decent Breloom check thanks to Icicle Spear. Also, your forgetting 2 matchup cloyster plays a huge role in, Fire. All of the types you mention cloyster has little effect on, Ice already has an edge against those, but Fire, that's a different story. Yea, Walrein is resistant to it, but it's not gonna take repeated Fire STAB attacks in the sun, or Solar Beam forever. Cloyster is able to sweep the type (or at least it's one of the best options there is). Fire is an offensive type that's often hard to wall (let alone the worst defensive type in the game), you need to apply pressure, which Cloyster ALONG WITH Kyurem B does a great job doing. Take this from someone who actually plays with Ice, and believe me when I say it is A ranked.
Ummm, have you seem Broc's Ice Team? That had a Cloyster, Ice Teams can usually be built pretty differently, there isn't exactly a set format for building it, other than covering as many weaknesses as possible, because there's a lot of them. Plus, since it's awful defensively (Avalugg being typically the only wall ran), you typically take an offensive approach.Hi there man, about your points:
- I know mons of same typing can be run on on monotype teams (examples are the normal core porychan, some defensive ground cores of both gastrodon/quagsire and others I can't remember now), but i don't think monoice can afford that luxury, one because its awful defensive typing and 2, most important because it hardly find a spot in a serious ice team, with Avalugg, Kyurem-B, Walrein / Lapras, Mamoswine / Piloswine, Weavile, and Mega Glalie / Abomasnow, also Froslass if you want your spikes.
- I mentioned "the only notable exception is again fire where cloyster does a great job given the right circunstances", but is so difficult to setup your shell smash again a fire team that the chance of sweep don't worth the spot in the team. Lets see what setup chances cloyster have again the fire physical attackers (don't mind special attackers, cloyster just die):
252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 160-190 (66.3 - 78.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (scarf set)
168 Atk Infernape Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 186-222 (77.1 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (sash set, life orb does more)
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 147-174 (60.9 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 147-174 (60.9 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (scarf set, other sets with searing shot just kill it)
Like you see most attacks leave it prone to be revenge killed by entei eespeed, so it can at most get only 1 kill. Only again Entei or victini it have reasonable chances to setup (entei can burn it btw so is 50/50)
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 79-93 (32.7 - 38.5%) -- 98.5% chance to 3HKO
I know you have more experience with the type, but with I have tested cloyster in the past I stay in my position of it being B rank.
Ok, first off, it is 3 Am, I don't think anyone making a huge post at this ungodly hour is a great idea.last post I'll make on the mono forums until gen 7, moving on to less bad metas.
Cloyster: A->B
the I kind of felt like posting this in my big ol' ice mega-post last thread but felt it'd be too controversial so I didn't, glad vid had more nerve than me to suggest it.
IMHO cloy is a crutch for bad ice players. every competent ice team I've used has had 1 primary MO, to clear a path for a kyub clean, which is done by various support mons, whether it's Avalugg spinning, Aboma/Aurorus hail, Walrein's dealing with steels, etc... cloy ice is a drastically different way of playing ice, you get two mons instead of 1 that can't add defensive synergy because it is absolutely necessary to keep them in tip-top shape in order for cleans by either of them to be feasible (I'm assuming sash cloy). As much as I hate to say it, cloy really isn't worth the loss of defensive synergy that, say, aboma or pilo provide. more often than not. you are essentially being forced to do more with less with Cloyster ice. Btw why do you not just click outrage to win against fire. Kyu-B has basically 0 reliable switchins, you use fusion bolt to pop tran if they have one, then you earth power on mons not named Charizard until they hard switch tran in, then you just... win. I don't understand why people think that the matchup is difficult, and that Cloyster solves it???
+2 4 SpA Cloyster Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran in Sun: 194-230 (60 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Yeah, have fun breaking heatran with your cloyster, or try your best to beat all of fire's priority users while keeping your sash and keeping no rocks with the pure momentum drain that is Avalugg, and killing zardy somewhere along the way. Do you know of a mon that can clean fire while requiring none of this support? I do, and it happens to the best mon on the type. Just use Kyurem-Black and stop talking about Fire.
Its roles on the Grass matchup is more pronounced (forces Breloom to come out, and is one of the two ways to break its Sash without sacking something to Spore, the other being Abomasnow hail), and if people started trying out HP Fire Cloyster, it actually does a decent amount against Bug/Steel (Scizor stops the physical set cold even with Hydro Pump after Stealth Rock and there's a roll for Pinsir Quick Attack and Scizor Bullet Punch to kill the Cloyster [+2 4 SpA Cloyster Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 247-292 (72 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO])
Other than that, it dominates matchups kyu-b already dominates in (i mean if your opponent uses scarf kyu-b on drag you're in luck with your Cloyster? Avalugg beats it but so does Cloyster i guess) ice dittos will never be relevant in the meta but cloy is really good in it, if your opponent doesn't carry roar lugg (and has it at about 75% health without sr and full health with sr), you win when you shell smash. I'm not sure why you'd build your team around the ditto but if you feel like it Cloyster is definitely the mon for you.
stun im skeptical you actually play this game. like your knowledge of ice isn't wrong but... it's wrong. who in their right mind doesn't build ice offensively? once you stop fighting fire players who keep their zardys in on full health pilo, once you stop fighting grass players who fall for teravolt ice beam, once you stop assuming your opponent is a literal potato for the purpose of justifying your bad teambuilding decisions then you can end your posts in "period" claiming that youre amazing at this meta.
I actually dont know what point ur trying to make in this, but I'll also assume you want it to be dropped in rank. I'll just comment on some points u made, one being that kyurem just wins against fire.last post I'll make on the mono forums until gen 7, moving on to less bad metas.
Cloyster: A->B
the I kind of felt like posting this in my big ol' ice mega-post last thread but felt it'd be too controversial so I didn't, glad vid had more nerve than me to suggest it.
IMHO cloy is a crutch for bad ice players. every competent ice team I've used has had 1 primary MO, to clear a path for a kyub clean, which is done by various support mons, whether it's Avalugg spinning, Aboma/Aurorus hail, Walrein's dealing with steels, etc... cloy ice is a drastically different way of playing ice, you get two mons instead of 1 that can't add defensive synergy because it is absolutely necessary to keep them in tip-top shape in order for cleans by either of them to be feasible (I'm assuming sash cloy). As much as I hate to say it, cloy really isn't worth the loss of defensive synergy that, say, aboma or pilo provide. more often than not. you are essentially being forced to do more with less with Cloyster ice. Btw why do you not just click outrage to win against fire. Kyu-B has basically 0 reliable switchins, you use fusion bolt to pop tran if they have one, then you earth power on mons not named Charizard until they hard switch tran in, then you just... win. I don't understand why people think that the matchup is difficult, and that Cloyster solves it???
+2 4 SpA Cloyster Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran in Sun: 194-230 (60 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Yeah, have fun breaking heatran with your cloyster, or try your best to beat all of fire's priority users while keeping your sash and keeping no rocks with the pure momentum drain that is Avalugg, and killing zardy somewhere along the way. Do you know of a mon that can clean fire while requiring none of this support? I do, and it happens to the best mon on the type. Just use Kyurem-Black and stop talking about Fire.
Its roles on the Grass matchup is more pronounced (forces Breloom to come out, and is one of the two ways to break its Sash without sacking something to Spore, the other being Abomasnow hail), and if people started trying out HP Fire Cloyster, it actually does a decent amount against Bug/Steel (Scizor stops the physical set cold even with Hydro Pump after Stealth Rock and there's a roll for Pinsir Quick Attack and Scizor Bullet Punch to kill the Cloyster [+2 4 SpA Cloyster Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 247-292 (72 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO])
Other than that, it dominates matchups kyu-b already dominates in (i mean if your opponent uses scarf kyu-b on drag you're in luck with your Cloyster? Avalugg beats it but so does Cloyster i guess) ice dittos will never be relevant in the meta but cloy is really good in it, if your opponent doesn't carry roar lugg (and has it at about 75% health without sr and full health with sr), you win when you shell smash. I'm not sure why you'd build your team around the ditto but if you feel like it Cloyster is definitely the mon for you.
self edit:. removed insults until I get sleep and can make coherent ones
Why was cloyster ranked down? Most people agreed it should stay ARanking Discussion #4 this discussion is short because Wanka is on vacation
Rank Changes Discussion #3
(Flying) A--->B (Steel) B--->A (Normal) B--->A
Other Changes
(Water) Stays A (Ice) A--->B (Psyshic) D--->C (Water) On Hold to be discussed Later (Ground) Stays C
(Water) Unranked--->B
It was even. The council voted and decided it should drop. If you want to hear our reasoning, PM us on Showdown.Why was cloyster ranked down? Most people agreed it should stay A
I like C rank there. By the way, I'd also note that it's the only viable Prankster Tailwind user on Flying, so it could make for an interesting HO Flying team.Just noticed that Tornadus is unranked on Flying. I would say it definitely deserves consideration for Unranked -> C. It has a similar role to other C ranked mons in Staraptor and Hawlucha, and with access to Prankster + Bulk Up, it can be a fairly decent Flying STAB set up mon. It also has coverage moves in Superpower and Knock Off which can come in handy, as well as other options via Prankster.
Quick thing to mention Ice is a terrible type and even with Froslass Ice still loses to Psyshic and Fighting type teams why?Froslass(Ice) B --->A
Froslass is the most effective check vs mega medicham in ice monotype, making her a must unless users accept auto-losses vs psychic and fighting monos. Additionally, Froslass provides utility with Spikes, Taunt, and/or Thunder wave, crippling opposing supports(taunt), entry hazard setters(taunt), squishy choiced sweepers(thunder wave + sash), and surprises foes with a well timed Destiny Bond.
Side note: how can you rank lapras above froslass .-.