RU CCAT (STEP 4 - PLAYTESTING)

[Windsong]

Personally I think that both Misdreavus and Rotom-N shopuld be given equal consideration. Rotom-N is far more advanced offensively but Misdreavus just won't die. Having played aaginst a few times and trying to spin against it I can confirm that it takes several turns and plenty of long-term planning to bring it down.

The problem with this is that, while Misdreavus is definitely a solid choice for most stall oriented balance and full stall, due to the difficulty in taking it down, it's simply not offensively minded enough to fit well onto a spikestacking offense team, because it loses momentum too easily. In my opinion, a SubSplit Rotom would be much more effective, forcing switches, providing decent offensive pressure, and taking on most of the common spinners with ease, especially with the drop in Cryogonal.

And echoing the suggestions of the crowd, spikes stacking offense is definitely the best option for Double Dance Rhydon, letting it get a bunch of KOs that it otherwise would not be able to manage (check Pearl's damage calculations for reference).

And assuming we go with this, as I stated earlier, I believe that the best partner for a spinblocker is Rotom, with the best spiker available being Qwilfish, who offers us a secondary Fire- resist as well as a Fighting- resist, both of which are pretty much mandatory in RU right now. Qwilfish also isn't as vulnerable to being set up on as other spikers, thanks to Taunt, and finds plenty of opportunities to switch in without losing significant amounts of momentum when setting spikes. I would consider Scolipede as the other option for a Spiker, giving the team some offensive presence, but I simply find that Qwilfish is slightly more consistent in setting up all three layers by abusing immunities, which is worthwhile for spikes offense.

 

[smashlloyd20]

Spike Stacking Offense

I'm too lazy to restate what many above user could put better than I ever could, so I'm just going to restate that the few checks to a boosted Rhydon (Tangrowth, Coffee, etc.) are WRECKED by Spikes support.

 

[Stratos]

I'd like to offer a radical new idea to the table: Frillish. Having faced one, it was as bulky as hell, blocking spins like a boss and not taking shit from really any RU spinners. It has the ability to hit specially, Recover (That's BIG) or cripple Physical attackers. It doesn't sack any momentum because it forces a switch on everything save Foresight Hitmons and it can still cripple them for the rest of the game.

Further, I'd like to introduce Scolipede as my ideal spiker of choice. Not only does he absorb Tspikes, but his Bug typing lets him muscle through some of Rhydon's best counters: Tangrowth and Claydol. Further, when you combine it with Frillish you get insane type synergy, with Ghost being the only type none resist (excluding loldragon)

 

[Ewil]

Spike stacking offense seems to be a pretty good start. Rhydon has excellent synergie with Eviolite Roselia it resists Water, Grass and Fighting and is generally a good Special tank, while Rhydon can take Fire and Flying type attacks as well as having decent physical bulk. Roselias decent base 100 SpA should be just enough to threaten usual Rhydon switch ins like Tangrowth and Claydol and doesn't cares if it gets burned from one of the Ghosts or a Scald thanks to Natural Cure. This would be a set i would support:

Roselia@Eviolite
Natural Cure
252 HP /252 SDef /4 SpA
-Spikes
-Giga Drain/Leafstorm
-Sludge Bomb
-Rest

However Cladol still shits on you when it Spins your hazards away while being almost completly immune to them. So a spin blocker is very important and a ghost type would generally help with things like Choice Scarf Medicham. A good option would be Rotom-N or Haunter as they seem to be the best offensive Ghosts in RU (Trick Room Cofagrigus could work too).

This.Is.Nightmare.

Roselia can do a lot of work done for the Rhydon sweeps and also, i'm in with the spikes-stacking offense.

 

[ASteelersMidget]

I'm for Hyper Offense but maybe thats just because I still want to use Choice Scarf Braviary.....

 

[Jaetheho]

i wanna suggest omastar for spikes because its just so goddamn unexpected. (it can sweep later on too)

 

[BurningMan]

i wanna suggest omastar for spikes because its just so goddamn unexpected. (it can sweep later on too)

Omastar really lacks good synergie with Rhydon, both have horrible SDef and share weaknesses to grass, ground and fighting.

For a Spinblocker SubSplit Rotom seems really nice, it got a lot resistances as well as OK bulk and enough offensive presence to fit on a more offensive oriented team.

 

[Ewil]

Yep, Rotom & Roselia covers all rhydon weaked spot and to the job of spike supporter and spin blocker very well (Rotom can even damage the opponent pretty well).
I should go with this two for the main job, and honch (subroost seems good for me) can be the answer to many defensive & attacking threats like others just said.

 

[Molk]

Even though it adds another water weakness to the plate, Crustle may be a good idea if you want stealth rock as well as with spikes, the combo of both leaves pokemon at around 64% health on average compared to 75% it will also hit levitators that rhydon wouldnt be able to ko usually, im not sure but it may be a good idea. it may be really useful if we decide to use eviolite rhydon. Due to crustle's sturdy and a lum berry getting stealth rock up is nearly guaranteed.

 

[BurningMan]

Even though it adds another water weakness to the plate, Crustle may be a good idea if you want stealth rock as well as with spikes, the combo of both leaves pokemon at around 64% health on average compared to 75% it will also hit levitators that rhydon wouldnt be able to ko usually, im not sure but it may be a good idea. it may be really useful if we decide to use eviolite rhydon. Due to crustle's sturdy and a lum berry getting stealth rock up is nearly guaranteed.

I tried crustle, it gets either taunted or 2HKO'd so it gets SR up reliably, but nothing more. Its also weak to SR and as you already mentioned he lacks useful synergier with rhydon (maybe because Rock/Bug is an awful typing). Ferroseed would overall be alot better if you want SR and Spikes on the same mon.

 

[zdrup15]

Because I've seen a few disagreements on this, the set you guys voted on is this.

For the choice between Adamant and Jolly, the important Pokemon Adamant nature misses at +2 are Sceptile, Swellow, Adamant Scarf Braviary, and Accelgor. Swellow can only 3HKO with Facade so it doesn't really matter and Accelgor is more common as a lead so the most dangerous Pokemon are Sceptile and Adamant Scarf Braviary.

The Attack boost means (calcs accounting +2 Atk and LO as suggested by macle):

• Jolly does an average 86.72% to standard Cofagrigus (which means it's likely the (BAN ME PLEASE) will survive and burn Rhydon), while Adamant has 98% chances of OHKOing after Stealth Rock.
• Adamant always OHKOes bold max max Dusknoir after SR (sometimes it doesn't even need it), while Jolly has a small chance of missing it.
• Adamant has a chance of OHKOing bold max max Ferrosseed after SR while Jolly doesn't.
• Against Alomomola and Tangrowth Adamant needs both SR and a layer of Spikes to OHKO most of the time too

And these are some of the bulkiest RU Pokemon. I'm not showing any preferences here but I noticed most of you were discussing based on Final Fantasy's calcs and they aren't correct because he didn't account Life Orb and against Ferrosseed he made a calc with Stone Edge (resisted) when Rhydon would obviously use Earthquake (neutral).

So I'll let you discuss a bit more based on the new info to see if you still maintain your opinion. If so, and because the only option being discussed here is Spikes Stacking Offense, we'll skip the voting period and go right to Step 3.

 

[Twannes]

Seeing as people have been suggestiong roselia, we could be like that article in the smog and have a psuedo darmanitan/roserade/rhyperior core xD

 

[Tyranitarphantom]

Seeing as people have been suggestiong roselia, we could be like that article in the smog and have a psuedo darmanitan/roserade/rhyperior core xD

With Entei in favor of Darmanitan? Sounds like it could work

 

[smashlloyd20]

I'm strongly in favor of an Adamant nature. This is because, as zdrup stated, the only big thing you miss with Adamant that you can hit with Jolly is Sceptile. And while Scep is very threatening, the best set (imo), SD+Unburden, generally runs Adamant. And even if Scep is running Jolly, that's only one threat you miss coverage on. However, with Adamant you have much more coverage on some of the major defensive threats of RU. Adamant prevents things like Dusknoir and Coffee from forcing you out, assuming you can get a few layers of hazards up. This means that you will have a much easier time sweeping, as opposed to Jolly which has a much harder time dealing with sturdy defensive threats. The goal of this set is to sweep after all.

 

[BurningMan]

Seeing as people have been suggestiong roselia, we could be like that article in the smog and have a psuedo darmanitan/roserade/rhyperior core xD

I don't think this is a good idea, the core in the smog article works tries to lure in Darmanitans counters and U-Turn to Roserade or CB Rhyperior. The strengths also lie in Roserades high SpA and access to sleep powder as well as Rhyperiors ability to act as a Wall Breaker with CB. Roselia however has a significantly lower SpA and no access to Sleep Powder if we use Spikes and Rhydon is meant to be played as a late game sweeper that uses its decent natural bulk to get set-up late game wich obviously won't work if he switches in often and sucks away his own health with Life Orb. Oh and Entei don't gets U-Turn so you need don't gain momentum that easy and have to predict.

 

[Twannes]

yup you're right. was just an idea

 

[Pearl]

Even though I love extra speed on most stuff, I think that Adamant Rhydon is the way to go, because even with a Jolly Nature, we'd still miss Accelgor, and the other Pokemon we miss with Adamant, beside Sceptile, can't do too much back to Rhydon (lol Swellow). As a Spikes user, Intimidate Qwilfish, IMO, is the way to go, with a set of Spikes / Thunder Wave / Waterfall / Poison Jab and a bulky EV spread. Even though we have Rock Polish on our Rhydon, there will be times when we just can't use it, or using Swords Dance will be the best thing to do (mostly for a certain threat, such as Cofagrigus), and in those times, a bit of paralysis spreading may come in handy. It can also work as a Swords Dance Sceptile check, the common sweeper in RU ATM (for reference, a +1 Earthquake from an Adamant Sceptile with a Flying Gem, does 70.1% - 82.6% to a Qwilfish with 252/252 HP/Defense EVs and an Impish nature).

 

[Lady Shinki]

We need Jolly Rhydon to beat neutral base 80 scarfers (I'm looking at Medicham!) and the other extremely fast pokemon of the tier (considering that SD AcroBling Sceptile is so common and that rarer things like Modest Accelgor can 1hko with Giga Drain regardless of Rhydon's item choice, but is outsped by a Jolly Rhydon). Medicham (and occasional +Spe scarfers in the 60-70 range) are enough of a threat that we should consider Jolly to beat those would-be revengers and rely on residual damage to mop up those particularly bulky walls that might stop Rhydon.

 

[smashlloyd20]

Hi

Yeah, here's the thing; SD Unburden Sceptile should run Adamant. It needs extra power but it does not need more speed. Also, Accelgor is so uncommon it's not even worth considering. Base 80 Scarfers are more of a problem though....

 

[jessifer]

If we are running a spikes team, will hazard damage make up for the power difference between adamant and jolly? Does anyone have calcs? (Too lazy to do it myself.) I'll wait to see before voting.
Also, the disadvantages to each nature might be able to be covered up by teammates.

Edit: Adamant. Leave fast pokemon to teammates and sweep at the end. Qwilfish sounds interesting.

 

[Axmaster68]

Personally, on a team where we are using Spike Stacking Offense, I love the idea of Quilfish and an Adamant nature. Also, I'd like to see a momentum keeper, such as maybe Scyther, as it avoids much of what makes a stall team, and hits VERY hard.

 

[MMF]

Yeah definitely Adamant Nature mainly for the power as zdrup pointed and many others have pointed out we only really miss out Sceptile and Base 80 scarfers. But thats what teammates are for.

 

[Vratix]

Even though I love extra speed on most stuff, I think that Adamant Rhydon is the way to go, because even with a Jolly Nature, we'd still miss Accelgor, and the other Pokemon we miss with Adamant, beside Sceptile, can't do too much back to Rhydon (lol Swellow). As a Spikes user, Intimidate Qwilfish, IMO, is the way to go, with a set of Spikes / Thunder Wave / Waterfall / Poison Jab and a bulky EV spread. Even though we have Rock Polish on our Rhydon, there will be times when we just can't use it, or using Swords Dance will be the best thing to do (mostly for a certain threat, such as Cofagrigus), and in those times, a bit of paralysis spreading may come in handy. It can also work as a Swords Dance Sceptile check, the common sweeper in RU ATM (for reference, a +1 Earthquake from an Adamant Sceptile with a Flying Gem, does 70.1% - 82.6% to a Qwilfish with 252/252 HP/Defense EVs and an Impish nature).

I agree with 99% of this
I would like to slash in T-spikes over Poison Jab.
It's part of a supporting core, It doesn't overly matter if there is something that it can't damage by itself.
Otherwise, t-wave sounds good qwilfish sounds better

 

[Molk]

I would think taunt over t-wave would be a good idea. prevent opponents from setting up, sounds good to me.

 

[zdrup15]

I think it's pretty clear that Spikes Stacking Offense wins. And since the majority of the people chose Adamant, we're going with that too (sorry Kenshiro your post was taken into account but another vote would end up with the same result while taking another 2 days and I'd love to see this ending before the Council changes the metagame again).

So people we're building a Spikes Stacking Offense team whose main goal is to allow a Life Orb Adamant RP + SD Rhydon sweep!

I've already seen some pretty good discussion about teammates so let's keep going guys.