SM OU Z-Tailwind Kartana + Suicide Lead Lando Offence

[JayThePokemonMaster]

Introduction
(IMPORT AT THE BOTTOM)
SECTIONS: Teambuilding, looking into members of this team, how to use this team, and weaknesses
I've encountered a Z-tailwind kartana and it bet my team 6-0. It is absolutely powerful when used correctly and there is almost no way to counter it. Normal Gem SD Explosion landorus is a great suicide lead that guarantees a OHKO on the second or third turn if you're not OHKOed already. This team had great success but it is not the best and i wanna see what you guys think about it.

Teambuilding
I started off with of course, Z-tailwind kartana. Since this set wasn't on the smogon analysis, i put the best moves possible on it. Now kartana has a x4 weakness against fire, so i needed a solid water type. I wasn't looking for a defensive water type, so greninja did the job. I chose specs ash-greninja since it dealt the best damage against other 'mons, even resisting ones. And it could become a late-game sweeper for me and scare out . Now i needed something that has power and can punish other water types that threaten the team, such as other greninjas, so specs koko did the job. This 'mon is one of my favourites as well, because of its power and ability to switch in and OHKO or punch holes in opposing teams with its power. With Koko, i needed something that can punish ferrothorn and other annoying steel types that wall this team. So E-seed 'lucha did the PERFECT job. The highest speed makes it outspeed anything in its way making it another great late game sweeper for me and it gets rid of steel types. Now onto SD Explosion Lando. SD Explosion Lando is a perfect suicide lead with an additional normal gem which makes it 350 base power, and plus that with +2 atk, it is basically op. My last member, SpDef Celesteela used to be SpDef stallbreaker heatran, but i felt like Celesteela acts better because it has a great ability to stall out opponents and Heatran's magma storm's 75% accuracy isn't worth it that much for me.

LOOKING INTO EACH OF MY TEAM'S MEMBERS SPECIFICALLY


Kartana @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Tailwind
- Sacred Sword
- Leaf Blade
- Swords Dance
Kartana is the main sweeper in this team. Z-Tailwind not just doubles its speed for a solid 4 turns, but increases its crit rate by a LOT. So basically every hit you make is a crit. Add that with Swords Dance. Even Toxapex or Ferrothorn would get OHKOed by +2 atk crit from kartana. I will list the calcs below. Kartana's entire set is obvious. Sacred Sword and Leaf Blade for main attacks, i didn't include Smart Strike since it doesn't have power. 252+ speed for speed, duh! 4 Defence to make kartana a bit bulkier and that's it. One more thing, Kartana's Beast Boost just makes it even more op.

Kartana Calcs

+2 252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex on a critical hit: 313-370 (102.9 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn on a critical hit: 450-530 (127.8 - 150.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey on a critical hit: 1000-1178 (142.2 - 167.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian on a critical hit: 328-387 (85.8 - 101.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory on a critical hit: 215-253 (64.5 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon on a critical hit: 2076-2448 (487.3 - 574.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Okay, if these cannot stand against Kartana and get OHKOed or 2HKOed immediately, then what can?

Greninja-Ash @ Choice Specs
Ability: Battle Bond
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Surf / Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Dark Pulse
- Extrasensory / Water Shuriken
Ash Greninja is a perfect offence core with kartana. Kartana covers Greninja with those steel types it struggles with, and in return Greninja covers Kartana with fire sweepers like Mega Charizard Y and X. Greninja's great STAB moves boosted by Specs makes it able to OHKO some 'mons or weaken resisting 'mons. Greninja turns into an even more powerful Ash-Gren when it KOes a 'mon, and at that point it is almost unstoppable. Now onto its movesets. I chose Surf over the more common Hydro Pump because i do not like the 85% accuracy and Greninja already has STAB and Choice Specs boost. Surf on the other hand has 90 base power which is reasonable and 100% accuracy which i cannot argue with. Ice Beam is to OHKO stuff like Dragonite and Zygarde. Dark Pulse is another great STAB move that has a flinch chance so its pretty good but i do not use it often. Extrasensory is a PERFECT coverage move against Venusaur since it walls this offence core and possibly the entire team. Some people would use Water Shuriken but why have two water moves when you can have an extra coverage move?

Tapu Koko @ Choice Specs
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dazzling Gleam
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
Tapu Koko is another great non set-up sweeper. With STAB + Choice Specs + Electric Terrain, it is almost unstoppable. Tapu Koko can easily switch in to most 'mons and OHKO it, it can even switch in to Lando / Zygarde / Dragonite / Garchomp and OHKO it with HP Ice. Volt Switch makes it easily switch out when in danger and deal some chip damage against enemies. Its entire set is the normal Specs Koko set, so nothin' to say about that.

Hawlucha @ Electric Seed
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance / Taunt
- Drain Punch / Taunt
- High Jump Kick
- Acrobatics
Hawlucha is really good with koko since koko has access to volt switch so it could switch into hawlucha and then hawlucha can set up and sweep! End of the game! With the most speed in the entire tier, its unstoppable. Hawlucha also can be a great stallbreaker with access to taunt, but you'll have to sacrifice SD or Drain Punch for it. The set is the normal E-seed 'lucha set, but with 4 SpD and 252 Speed. Hawlucha is kinda the latest game sweeper for me, because if you send it out immediately at the start, it might get revenge killed easily.

Landorus-Therian @ Normal Gem
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Stealth Rock
- Explosion
- Earthquake
This suicide landorus is the BEST suicide lead ever (for me at least). With Normal Gem to make Explosion 350 base power, and SD to make that 350 base power even more. After it sets up, it guarantees an OHKO to most 'mons with no Focus Sash even if you didn't SD. And this set is the element of surprise because no one really uses this set. But this lando can get prevented easily by Greninja if it switches in the second turn and you SD. So you gotta look at the opposing team carefully. If it has no threats, then you can SD, but if it does, set up rocks and then Explode immediately. (Why does lando even have explode lmao).

Celesteela @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Heavy Slam
- Toxic
Now my final and only defensive backbone. SpDef Celesteela. This Celesteela uses the combination of Leech Seed and Toxic to weaken the enemy. And the rest of the set i am sure you understand, but to make this paragraph at least 5 or 6 sentences i'll explain it. Leftovers is like the set literally every wall uses, because it grants +6 hp every end of turn. 252 HP to make Cel bulky, 4 Atk for Heavy Slam, and 252+ SpD because Cel is meant to be a SpDef wall. Protect is one of the most common moves of ALL walls since it grants you a free turn, and weaken the enemy EVEN more. Heavy slam is like Cel's best damaging STAB move because Cel is fat (look at its stats and info, it's fat even if it doesn't look like it).


HOW TO USE THIS TEAM (OR HOW I USE IT)
The point of this team is to quickly finish off the opponent before they're team sets up and kills you all.

So, first you send out lando for rocks and then SD or just explode depending on the opposing team (e.g. if the opposing team has a greninja or something that uses Ice type moves very well, use Explosion because there is a high chance they're gonna switch it in after set-up. If they do not however, you can SD up and use eq a few times or just explode). After lando dies, you MUST and you absolutely MUST, switch in Kartana. When you switch in Kartana, use Z-Tailwind immediately unless the opponent switches in a fire move user like MChar X or Y, if that happens, switch in gren. But if the opponent switches in Zapdos, Koko is your only switch-in. After you use Z-Tailwind, SD up and in the next turn use Leaf Blade or Sacred Sword depending on the active opponent. If it goes successful, you will at least knocked out 4 or 5 opponents, you'll probably die by then, but if you don't you win. After that, just switch in Koko or Gren to finish them off. But if somehow Gren dies, switch in Koko and volt switch into lucha. But if the opponent is weak, finish'em off with a thunderbolt. But if koko dies, switch in lucha as well. Kill them with a high jump kick or SD only when the opponent is a healthy tank. And if lucha dies, switch in gren. By that point the final 'mon/mons has to be weak (unless you played badly) so finish them off with greninja. Only switch in Celesteela if you don't have a great cover against the final 'mon/mons and then stall them until they die.

I hope i did a good description of how to use my team since it is my first time doing this section.

WEAKNESSES
All teams must have weaknesses right? So here's mine:

Zapdos
Literally all Zapdos' have both heat wave and thunderbolt, and that KILLS my entire team (except for Celesteela) since lando would often exploded at the start. Only Koko is your only switch-in because Celesteela could die with a few hits from Zapdos' thunderbolt/heatwave. If the opponent has a zapdos, you HAVE to keep Koko alive to weaken Zapdos. Zapdos won't be much of a problem if you already set up using Kartana.

Tapu Koko
Other Koko's can destroy this team as well, since lando is gone already at the start (usually). And Kartana has bad SpDef, so does the others. But again, Koko won't be much of a problem if you already set up with Kartana and Tailwind is still active.

There could be more weaknesses but i am tired of making this thread. Hoped you enjoyed and any suggestions/tips would be greatly appreciated (unless they're stupid, which they won't be, right?).
​

Import Of Team

Kartana @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Tailwind
- Sacred Sword
- Leaf Blade
- Swords Dance

Greninja-Ash @ Choice Specs
Ability: Battle Bond
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Dark Pulse
- Extrasensory

Tapu Koko @ Choice Specs
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dazzling Gleam
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt

Hawlucha @ Electric Seed
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Drain Punch
- High Jump Kick
- Acrobatics

Landorus-Therian @ Normal Gem
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Stealth Rock
- Explosion
- Earthquake

Celesteela @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Heavy Slam
- Toxic

​

 

[comma]

How are you going to make a poll about the best suicide lead and not mention excadrill or greninja, the 2 best suicide leads? Now onto the team.

First of all I would never recommend using z tailwind kartana because that set is super bad and sd fightinium z works really well here but that is the gimmick of the team so I'll let it pass. Actually no please no. A set of SD/Leaf Blade/Sacred Sword/Smart strike with fightinium z works really well here since +2 all out pummeling ohkoes stuff like skarm and steela which are annoying for Hawlucha and smart strike for bulu which gives your team some trouble.

Second, I would recommend the standard spikes/hydro pump/shuriken/dark pulse set on greninja as spikes are super nice on this team for wearing down mons to put them in range of hawlucha and kartana and shuriken is always nice.

Third I would recommend roost over drain punch/taunt on Hawlucha since it makes it a lot easier to set up on defensive landorus. Along with dual stab moves and sd for sweeping potential. I would also only run 297 because a pretty common hawlucha spread is 296 and the extra hp is nice for setting up on stuff like landorus.

Fourth I would suggest sash on landorus since explosion doesn't need a normal gem since it's powerful enough and living 1 hit from a pokemon like ash gren can be invaluable in some situations.

Lastly why do you have a celesteela on such an offensive team. I know it's your only defensive mon but it can't get the job done on it's own and you should just run full offense. To replace celesteela you want a mon that can check a lot of common anti-offense measures like koko, ash gren, lopunny and scarf tapu lele. This is where I would suggest mimikyu as it can take a hit from all of those mons and revenge kill them. I would run the standard SD set with life orb and an adamant nature since mimikyu is really weak.

my suggested changes

Kartana @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Smart Strike
- Sacred Sword
- Leaf Blade
- Swords Dance

Greninja-Ash @ Choice Specs
Ability: Battle Bond
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Water Shuriken
- Dark Pulse
- Spikes

Tapu Koko @ Choice Specs
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dazzling Gleam
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt

Hawlucha @ Electric Seed
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 156 HP / 252 Atk / 100 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Roost
- High Jump Kick
- Acrobatics

Landorus-Therian @ Focus Sash
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Stealth Rock
- Explosion
- Earthquake

Mimikyu @ Life Orb
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Play Rough
- Shadow Claw
- Shadow Sneak

 

[JayThePokemonMaster]

Hi.
Thx for the suggestions.
However, please just don't say z-tailwind kartana is really bad because it is very impolite especially for me. I gave you calcs, so please read them. Z-tailwind kartana can 2HKO Skarmory on +2 crit and can definitely OHKO bulu. So NO i am not gonna switch it to Fightinum Z.

Sorry i am not gonna change my gren to that set u suggested since as u already know (if u read the entire threat properly) i hate hydro pump and i think stealth rocks is enough. Plus, i NEED extrasensory for Mega Venusaur.

For hawlucha, i would gladly change the EVs but not the moveset because i NEED drain punch for reliable recovery and dealing damage.

For Lando, if it doesn't have a normal gem and doesn't/can't set up, what damage is it gonna do against toxapex, celesteela, or other walls?

For the last suggestion, i would gladly change it to mimyku.

 

[Enenra]

JayThePokemonMaster Why did you post an RMT if you weren't open to suggestions? Second off regarding wyattdev changes to the team, would improve the team greatly. As for tailwind in singles it's not very good in singles as it is in doubles, I would suggest running a Shuckle with webs if you're trying to go for that gimmick and Tailwind isn't useful 1v1 vs bulu or Skarmory seeing as kartana already outspeeds both

 

[comma]

Also +2 all-out-pummeling is guaranteed to ohko skarm rather than being a roll. Sorry if my original post came off as rude but z-tailwind kartana is regarded as a bad set for a reason, not just because people like to hate on it. Also on this team, anyone in their right mind will know your lead is landorus and lead with a greninja or specs koko to counter lead you and get free kill turn 1 and prevent your rocks from going up. Even though the extra bit of power is nice against celesteela but with or without a normal gem this mon still has trouble breaking celesteela. Also, earthquake does the same damage as normal gem explosion to toxapex and doesn't kill yourself. Spikes ash gren can still beat venusaur as long as you predict all it to switchin once or twice and get a spike up. With a spike and a stealth rock venusaur gets heavily pressured by dark pulse. And yes, you can run surf over hydro pump if you are scared of missing and want so miss out on important koes. Venusaur is pretty good against this team but koko and gren can wear it down with volt switches and spikes pretty quick. A lost of the sets I suggested are renowned as the best sets for reasons, not because I just said that.

 

[JakeOakley91]

I for one, agree with the team overall. Sure Z-Tailwind Kartana is gimmicky, but I've swept multiple teams with it, after removing the biggest threats (if the opponent even has them) by either 1. Setting Rocks up to break Sash's/Sturdy and protecting against Defog/Spin, or 2. Playing smart, or 3. Both.

Though, I would say Smart Strike is almost essential for dealing with the Bulu, since Crit Leaf Blade even at neutral attack stages, ohkos pretty much everything weak to it, and most things that take neutral damage from grass as well, thanks to massive damage coming from nearly the best base attack in the game, and STAB. I've found Leaf Blade ends up as a crit, at least 95% of the time, which is scary.

I won't argue with the Tapu+Seed Lucha either. That's a solid way to counter a rain/sand team, as well as just solid speed control. I prefer Lele/Lucha myself, but that's me. Lucha isn't too bulky, but the seed is a big help. I agree it needs reliable recovery, but as to whether Drain Punch/Roost is more useful, mainly on what EV's Lucha has, offensive, or defensive. I prefer defensive EV's, so I go with Roost and Drain Punch, and no HJK. I still use Swords Dance, and even at +2 Drain Punch+Acrobatics hits the majority of common Pokemon in OU for at least neutral, which translates into multiple ohko's, but if you can only 2ohko a kon, you've got enough bulk to not care. I've found Poison Jab to be a fairly reliable option, to check opposing Koko, as it takes Lucha's stabs and can be a problem. But also worth considering is Thunder Punch for the bulky water types, that aren't Swampert, or Gastrodon. I won't bother with Quagsire, because he's the least common of the three in OU.

Nothing to say about Greninja, or Koko, fairly standard sweeper sets, though there is value in not being Choice locked, at the expense of some power. Possibly a Shuca Berry, Life Orb, or Wise Glasses.

I do agree that specific Lando-T set, is unusual, but hey, it looks interesting. Let them have some fun.

As for Celesteela, I agree that other mons might be more helpful. Fake Out support, into fighting/fire deals with pretty much ever common suicide lead out there. Ice Punch might be a good option as well, as some Pokemon can still ohko offensive Lando-T at -1, after Fake Out. Like Mega Lopunny, or Ambipom.

The fact that you don't have a Mega, makes me want to recommend one, as its generally a bad idea to ignore them, when they get a boost to their stats, and other useful things, like a strong typing, or a better ability. Mega Loppuny would be good fit, as Gren walls the Psychic type, and also hits Flying/Psychic really hard with Ice Beam, and Stab Dark Pulse respectively. Koko also handles the flying types M-Lop can't ohko with Fake Out+Return/Ice Punch. M-Lop also outspeeds all unboosted, not scarfed positive speed natured base 130's (including opposing Koko, which was labled as a threat, which is correct), but also sped ties neutral speed natured pokemon, up to base 135, and due to good powered dual stab, hits anything that doesn't resist it hard. Even ghosts aren't safe, though their second typing might protect them a little from HJK, like Gengar, or Drifblim.

Here's the Mega Lopunny Set I'd recommend.

Playboy (M-Loppunny) @ Loppunnite
Ability: Scrappy
Nature: Jolly
EV's: 4 HP/ 252 Atk/252 Spe
Moves:
High Jump Kick
Return
Ice Punch/Power Up Punch
Fake Out

Offensive EV's to hit as hard and fast as possible, max speed to speed tie other Bunnies, and Mega Manectric, as well as the above speed tiers.

Power Up Punch is a little unreliable, but due to Sturdy/Sashes, plus access to Fake Out, means an ideal way to use it, is come on something you think will stay in, and Fake Out, then finish it off with Power Up Punch. Obviously, preserving this Pokemon's HP, and making sure you don't go for the sweep until you outspeed everything, and can deal with what's left, is important, but that's stating the obvious, that making smart plays, is well...smart.