Yep. I have probably used it more than everyone else here as I have been playing a lot of RU recently, but in OU I agree it is tough to bring in. However I stand by the inescapable death set. I think that set alone is worth a C- rating. However, Banette can also utilize either sucker punch or shadow sneak to act as both a revenge killer and the deadly sacrifice that most people know it as. Banette can also run things like will-o-wisp and disable (pairs up nicely with protect) to cripple unsuspecting victims.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)
- Thread starter alexwolf
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Nominating Mega Pinsir for A+
After the Gene/Mega-Luke ban, Mega-Pinsir was amazing. No drawback powerful moves, access to good priority and decent coverage made it a top tier threat. Unfortunately, due to the relatively new "Double Bird" core, everyone rushed to find good checks/counters to Birdspam. While a month ago, there were only one, maybe two, Flying checks, People are now running multiple hard counters to make sure they arent overrun (Think Skarm/Washtom/Thund-I). This, combined with Pinsirs 4x weakness to SR means that it finds very little opportunity to plow through teams, despite its power. Pinsir hasn't gotton worse, its just that the metagame has adapted in a way not beneficial to him.
After the Gene/Mega-Luke ban, Mega-Pinsir was amazing. No drawback powerful moves, access to good priority and decent coverage made it a top tier threat. Unfortunately, due to the relatively new "Double Bird" core, everyone rushed to find good checks/counters to Birdspam. While a month ago, there were only one, maybe two, Flying checks, People are now running multiple hard counters to make sure they arent overrun (Think Skarm/Washtom/Thund-I). This, combined with Pinsirs 4x weakness to SR means that it finds very little opportunity to plow through teams, despite its power. Pinsir hasn't gotton worse, its just that the metagame has adapted in a way not beneficial to him.
Reposting this because there were no reactions. Looking at the ranking, this is the only pokemon that I think really needs to move up. Whimsicott definitely has a greater niche than things like Salamence, Kyurem, Crobat or Rotom-C, which are all higher.
Whimsicott definitely deserves higher than D rank. Its SubSeed set may be worthy of D, but Whimsicott is actually quite good on Offense and Hyper Offense, acting as pivot and emergency handle at the same time using the following set:
Whimsicott @ Lagging Tail
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SDef / 252 Def
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Encore
- U-turn
- Memento
- Switcheroo
The new Fariy typing gives Whimsicott plenty of switch in chances (Latios, Latias, Breloom, CharX, Clefable, Conkeldurr, Dragonite, (Mega-)Gyarados, Garchomp, Rotom-W and (Mega-)Tyranitar, amongst others), especially with its invested defense, and regains momentum whenever it was lost. A slow U-Turn is one of the best ways to get momentum when Whimsicott is still healthy, and Memento is even better, used when Whimsicott is low on health and your win condition is ready to sweep. Encore checks so many setup sweepers, it's not even funny. Although predictable, that +1 CharX or +1 Mega Gyarados will not have a chance to sweep. When played well, Whimsicott can cripple at least 2 pokemon throughout a match, through Switcheroo and Memento.
I'm not saying Whimsicott is A rank material, it just deserves higher than D rank (which I assume was based on the SubSeed set). It fulfilles several niches (momentum-grabber + emergency check), was approved for an on-site article with this set at C&C IIRC, and isn't outclassed by anything in what it does. I'd say C+, if not higher.
Whimsicott definitely deserves higher than D rank. Its SubSeed set may be worthy of D, but Whimsicott is actually quite good on Offense and Hyper Offense, acting as pivot and emergency handle at the same time using the following set:
Whimsicott @ Lagging Tail
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SDef / 252 Def
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Encore
- U-turn
- Memento
- Switcheroo
The new Fariy typing gives Whimsicott plenty of switch in chances (Latios, Latias, Breloom, CharX, Clefable, Conkeldurr, Dragonite, (Mega-)Gyarados, Garchomp, Rotom-W and (Mega-)Tyranitar, amongst others), especially with its invested defense, and regains momentum whenever it was lost. A slow U-Turn is one of the best ways to get momentum when Whimsicott is still healthy, and Memento is even better, used when Whimsicott is low on health and your win condition is ready to sweep. Encore checks so many setup sweepers, it's not even funny. Although predictable, that +1 CharX or +1 Mega Gyarados will not have a chance to sweep. When played well, Whimsicott can cripple at least 2 pokemon throughout a match, through Switcheroo and Memento.
I'm not saying Whimsicott is A rank material, it just deserves higher than D rank (which I assume was based on the SubSeed set). It fulfilles several niches (momentum-grabber + emergency check), was approved for an on-site article with this set at C&C IIRC, and isn't outclassed by anything in what it does. I'd say C+, if not higher.
I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM
formerly Smog Frog
Yes! It definitely deserves higher than D! I have used it on my own hyper offense team, and it has found its way onto all my hyper offense teams since then. It has saved my ass against opposing hyper offense teams, and it is very good. C+/B- imoReposting this because there were no reactions. Looking at the ranking, this is the only pokemon that I think really needs to move up. Whimsicott definitely has a greater niche than things like Salamence, Kyurem, Crobat or Rotom-C, which are all higher.
Whimsicott definitely deserves higher than D rank. Its SubSeed set may be worthy of D, but Whimsicott is actually quite good on Offense and Hyper Offense, acting as pivot and emergency handle at the same time using the following set:
Whimsicott @ Lagging Tail
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SDef / 252 Def
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Encore
- U-turn
- Memento
- Switcheroo
The new Fariy typing gives Whimsicott plenty of switch in chances (Latios, Latias, Breloom, CharX, Clefable, Conkeldurr, Dragonite, (Mega-)Gyarados, Garchomp, Rotom-W and (Mega-)Tyranitar, amongst others), especially with its invested defense, and regains momentum whenever it was lost. A slow U-Turn is one of the best ways to get momentum when Whimsicott is still healthy, and Memento is even better, used when Whimsicott is low on health and your win condition is ready to sweep. Encore checks so many setup sweepers, it's not even funny. Although predictable, that +1 CharX or +1 Mega Gyarados will not have a chance to sweep. When played well, Whimsicott can cripple at least 2 pokemon throughout a match, through Switcheroo and Memento.
I'm not saying Whimsicott is A rank material, it just deserves higher than D rank (which I assume was based on the SubSeed set). It fulfilles several niches (momentum-grabber + emergency check), was approved for an on-site article with this set at C&C IIRC, and isn't outclassed by anything in what it does. I'd say C+, if not higher.
It's subseed set isn't even worthy of D when you get walled by lol shit like sap sipper Azurill and like every grass type ever. But i do agree Whimsicott for a higher rank because prankster tailwind, stun spore and memento is very useful.Reposting this because there were no reactions. Looking at the ranking, this is the only pokemon that I think really needs to move up. Whimsicott definitely has a greater niche than things like Salamence, Kyurem, Crobat or Rotom-C, which are all higher.
Whimsicott definitely deserves higher than D rank. Its SubSeed set may be worthy of D, but Whimsicott is actually quite good on Offense and Hyper Offense, acting as pivot and emergency handle at the same time using the following set:
Whimsicott @ Lagging Tail
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SDef / 252 Def
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Encore
- U-turn
- Memento
- Switcheroo
The new Fariy typing gives Whimsicott plenty of switch in chances (Latios, Latias, Breloom, CharX, Clefable, Conkeldurr, Dragonite, (Mega-)Gyarados, Garchomp, Rotom-W and (Mega-)Tyranitar, amongst others), especially with its invested defense, and regains momentum whenever it was lost. A slow U-Turn is one of the best ways to get momentum when Whimsicott is still healthy, and Memento is even better, used when Whimsicott is low on health and your win condition is ready to sweep. Encore checks so many setup sweepers, it's not even funny. Although predictable, that +1 CharX or +1 Mega Gyarados will not have a chance to sweep. When played well, Whimsicott can cripple at least 2 pokemon throughout a match, through Switcheroo and Memento.
I'm not saying Whimsicott is A rank material, it just deserves higher than D rank (which I assume was based on the SubSeed set). It fulfilles several niches (momentum-grabber + emergency check), was approved for an on-site article with this set at C&C IIRC, and isn't outclassed by anything in what it does. I'd say C+, if not higher.
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I think that's an interesting point regarding Whimsicott. Played to its strengths on a HO team it could be amazing for grabbing memento momentum. :p Mementum? That HAS to be the name of that set now! But I digress. It's typing does provide good edgequake and Dragon resists that both Charizards want desperately. I think enough speed should be run though for possible Mementos on Pinsir and Talonflame, as an option at least. Theoretically the set sounds at least C worthy, and even better if it can pull off its purpose 9 times out of 10. I actually want to test it later on a team I'm working on so I'll get back to that.
This is not proof of any sort of drop in Mega Pinsir's viability. If anything, it proves how incredibly overcentralizing Mega Pinsir's power is upon team building. The current meta game right now is, "bring a Mega Pinsir or Talonflame counter or lose."
It's only overcentralizing if these Pokemon are useless outside of stopping Talonflame and Pinsir. Skarmory, Rotom wash, Thunderous-I, Zapdos, etc are all good Pokemon in their own right that have simply grown in popularity because they are solid checks/counters to bird spam. If Regirock started to become common, then that would be another story entirely.
Washtom has to be weary of getting smashed by regular Mold Breaker Pinsir's Earthquake
Okay, fair enough. Centralizing* instead of overcentralizing, but that doesn't change the fact that Talonflame and Mega Pinsir are literally the only reason certain Pokemon are so popular. I also disagree with Skarmory and Thundurus-I being a stop to Talonflame; CB STAB Flare Blitz hitting SE isn't pretty no matter how bulky you are, Thundurus-I gets 2 hit KOed by CB Brave Bird and it's weak to SR so it'll die before it gets to do anything if it switches in on a Brave Bird and then has to take another. Thundurus-I also gets straight-up OHKOed it it switches in on CB Flare Blitz. Also who the hell uses Regirock?
Now that shuckle is getting an analysis, i think this is the right time to rank it. It almost guarantees a layer of hazard with mental herb and sturdy. It is not exactly a set up bait due to encore and is the only pokemon with access to both stealth rock and sticky web. This gives shuckle a unique and its only niche. But, it can't consistently set both hazards due to its bad stats except for its defenses which are wasted due to its bad hp. It has no recovery and can't switchin easiely due to its stealth rock support. I think C is the perfect rank for it. Thoughts???
I agree with everything you just said, I was naming both checks and counters used in a previous post. Thunderous-i is not able to switch in to Pinsir or Talonflame, however I believe it is able to revenge kill both and can switch in on Talonflame's Brave Bird, if I'm not mistaken, and paralyze it before going down. Skarmory is a Pinsir counter not a Talonflame check, so it doesn't need to take a flare blitz. Regirock was mentioned because it can stop Talonflame very easily and is a decent Pinsir check, but isn't used because it isn't very useful against teams not using Talonflame or Pinsir. IF it had significant usage, which it does not, then we could say that these two Pokemon were overcentralizing.
Rotosect
Banned deucer.
I think Togekiss needs to be dropped to C rank.
It's one of those "jack of all trades and master of none" mons that don't seem to really fit in any team.
Even though it has the coveted fairy typing, fairy/flying is actually pretty bad defensively, being weak to BoltBeam, rocks and Bullet Punch, while not resisting ghost, water and fire, three dominant special types. As a result, Togekiss can't fully take advantage of its nice special bulk, since it's 2HKO'd by most special attacks in the tier.
Like most fairies, it's slower than any OU dragon, meaning it can't really counter them. Being immune to both of Garchomp's STABs is cool, until you realize Stone Edge is still a clean 2HKO.
It doesn't get Moonblast, which would have been awesome with its ability, so it has to rely on the mediocre Dazzling Gleam for a fairy STAB move... not that it usually has the room for that, since Air Slash is much more important, it needs a fire move for most steels, possibly Aura Sphere for Heatran and support moves like Roost or Thunder Wave.
Speaking of Thunder Wave+Air Slash, paraflinching sucks in XY (the king of paraflinching itself, Jirachi, is D rank in comparison), since it makes it complete Rotom-W/Zapdos7Thundurus-I bait, all pokemon you definitely don't want to come in for free.
The TrickScarf set isn't that good considering its lack of power, low speed, and SR weakness, and as a support/cleric unit it faces competition from Clefable and Sylveon.
I honestly don't see what kind of niche it could possibly fulfill in the current metagame, so it can't be above C rank.
It's one of those "jack of all trades and master of none" mons that don't seem to really fit in any team.
Even though it has the coveted fairy typing, fairy/flying is actually pretty bad defensively, being weak to BoltBeam, rocks and Bullet Punch, while not resisting ghost, water and fire, three dominant special types. As a result, Togekiss can't fully take advantage of its nice special bulk, since it's 2HKO'd by most special attacks in the tier.
Like most fairies, it's slower than any OU dragon, meaning it can't really counter them. Being immune to both of Garchomp's STABs is cool, until you realize Stone Edge is still a clean 2HKO.
It doesn't get Moonblast, which would have been awesome with its ability, so it has to rely on the mediocre Dazzling Gleam for a fairy STAB move... not that it usually has the room for that, since Air Slash is much more important, it needs a fire move for most steels, possibly Aura Sphere for Heatran and support moves like Roost or Thunder Wave.
Speaking of Thunder Wave+Air Slash, paraflinching sucks in XY (the king of paraflinching itself, Jirachi, is D rank in comparison), since it makes it complete Rotom-W/Zapdos7Thundurus-I bait, all pokemon you definitely don't want to come in for free.
The TrickScarf set isn't that good considering its lack of power, low speed, and SR weakness, and as a support/cleric unit it faces competition from Clefable and Sylveon.
I honestly don't see what kind of niche it could possibly fulfill in the current metagame, so it can't be above C rank.
I could agree with Shuckle in D rank. It has an interesting niche, but it is pretty easy to get the hazards that Shuckle lays down off of the field considering its complete lack of offensive presence.
Shuckle's niche is sticky web and that's it. As opposed to Galvanutla who has some offensive presence, Shuckle is just really hard to KO and at least has Encore to not be set-up bait. It has a couple other things like Infestation, contrary shell smash and Acupressure but the only serious reason to use it is Sticky Web.
Sticky Web is pretty mediocre though and IMO just isn't amazing enough to warrant using pokemon that are quite frankly bad. Shuckle should be D, and Galvantula should also be dropped to C or something
Sticky Web is pretty mediocre though and IMO just isn't amazing enough to warrant using pokemon that are quite frankly bad. Shuckle should be D, and Galvantula should also be dropped to C or something
Yeah I suppose you're right, but again it doesn't change that fact that you literally have to run one of those or else you lose.
Also, Mega Pinsir just fits the S rank so well.
1. All you need is defog and teammates to eliminate those select few counters/checks and you can sweep through the entire rest of the metagame.
2. Many times it doesn't even matter that you have a 4 times SR weakness. It only really matter is decently long games. Otherwise, Mega Pinsir can switch in on rocks on a Pokemon it beats or after a team mate died and you have a free switch, set up, and then sweep guaranteed as long as the Rotom-W/Rhyperior/etc. are weakened. Let's also not forget that Mega Pinsir is extremely bulky, has priority, and a high base speed stat so it's nearly impossible to revenge kill. Basically its only real downside is the 4x SR weakness, which doesn't even hold it back sometimes, and the fact that its type coverage doesn't cover everything, but only a few things are safe so it's easy to take care of them with team mates.
Mega Pinsir needs a pokemon who can defog and something to remove it's checks and counters. That alone already takes up half a team so S rank is a bit too high for it.
Being revenge killed means nothing as anything can be revenge killed, that's no argument.
Latios can remove hazards and smack Rotom-W, Skarmory, and Thundurus with Draco Meteor and Thunderbolt.
Yeah, it's definitely the easiest sweeper to support right now. All you need is a Latios or Latias and then you can just ignore trying to support Pinsir when you build the rest of your team.
I agree, but one argument that is commonly made for Mega Pinsir is that it is very difficult to revenge kill because of Aerielate quick attack. I only mentioned Thunderous-I to show that Pokemon that were popular before the rise of Pinsir are also able to stop flying spam.
I will agree that Pinsir is one of the easiest sweepers to support right now considering how few counters it has, but it is exclusively a late game cleaner considering how popular many of its checks currently are. Latios and Latias are also easily pursuit trapped, so it isn't as easy as throwing one of these two on a team with pinsir and winning. You still need to carry a talonflame counter and something that checks bisharp and lures and defeats, Aegislash, Tyranitar, and even Weaville in order to protect your Latios or Latias.
Pursuit trappers are very predictable. Just pull a double switch when you suspect he'll go into Tyranitar or something. Checking Bisharp is a must for any team with defog, so it's not unique here. Every team needs a way to beat Talonflame and Aegislash, so this is irrelevant and Weavile it not very common and extremely easy to deal with anyways, even if you don't prepare your team for Weavile you'll have definitely prepared for it on accident because of how horrific it's typing is defensively. All of those things you put are also irrelevant to supporting Mega Pinsir, it's all just supporting what supports Mega Pinsir and just some things that are mandatory in all Gen 6 team building anyways.
That's my point though. If you choose Latios and Latias, you need to be ready for these Pokemon. Pinsir doesn't add anything to your team except for late game sweeping. It can't alleviate the pressure on Latios and Latias. I named some random pursuit trappers off the top of my head to show exactly how difficult it is to keep Latios and Latias alive to defog for Pinsir so that it doesn't have to lose 25% health when you finally set it up. There are no perfect defoggers for Pinsir. They all provide either limited support against Pinsir's checks and counters or they need their own support to function. This makes Pinsir difficult to support. Yes if you build your team around it, it is the best sweeper in OU, but it needs too much support to be S-rank in my opinion for its limited role in the current meta. If Pinsir's checks become less popular, I could see it moving back into S-rank, but right now Talonflame, Zapdos, Thunderous-I, Skarmory, and stealth rocks are just too common to keep Mega Pinsir S in my mind. Almost every team has at least one check or counter to Pinsir and it isn't the type of Pokemon that can just be haphazardly thrown onto every single team.
Talonflame and Thundurus can check/revengekill basicly everything in the meta I still dont think thats a valid point. Zapdos and Rotom-w are extremely shaky as checks/counters. Zapdos can be neutralized with a simple doubleswitch into a counter while rocks are up and Rotom cant even switch into Pinsir for fear of Moldbreaker. Terrakion and most scarfers rely on Stone Miss to take on Pinsir so using them can still get you killed. And even if it works, beeing revengekilled by something is bad reasoning to begin with imo.
Overall I havent read a good reason for demoting Pinsir so far. SR weak? Applys to 4 out of 5 S Rank mons and serveral A Rank mons. 1 good and 2 shaky counters? The other S Rank mons have far more than that. Ok he is predictable, cant argue about that but still, he doesnt need anything else to do his job and he does his job extremely well imo.
Overall I havent read a good reason for demoting Pinsir so far. SR weak? Applys to 4 out of 5 S Rank mons and serveral A Rank mons. 1 good and 2 shaky counters? The other S Rank mons have far more than that. Ok he is predictable, cant argue about that but still, he doesnt need anything else to do his job and he does his job extremely well imo.
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