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I see some non-sense int he list. I want to explain the cases of pokemon of rejected analysis, his usage (in the 1760 Stats)
Arcanine (106th in the stats) More borderline, but fine. More outclassed (Entei, Darmanitan,etc) than ineffective.
Azelf I think deserves an analysis as a C poke. it has its uses like a deoxys-S liemk user with more Special Attack and Attack, and U-turn.
Donphan (56th in the 1760 stats) It's hated to death but has it's uses. Excadrill is less bulky and MBlastoise (the best defensive spinner) is incompatible with two of the main treats of spinning (Charizard and Pinsir)
Empoleon Too much. Has n unique typing that make resist at all, Defog while resisting SR, SR by restore them to hte opponent, offensive presence if invested, the Agility set with LO/Petaya Berry.
Florges fine, but note: it's not that it's bad, is because it's 100% outclaseed with Sylveon with Pixilate Hyper voice and very move that Florges has.
Forretress (80st in thye 1760 stats) Has its uses on stall team. Has lost his main niche this gen but has it's uses. Also, it can use a potent Gyro Ball.
Heliolisk More bordelrine, but fine.
Honchkrow I see uses for him, in all honestly. No more than D rank.
Jellicent Is Jellicent that ineffective to not get an analysis? Defog has nerfed it a bit, Water is not that common, but I see uses dealing with common threats.
Jirachi (88th in the 1760 Stats) I can't believe that a pokemon that was S rank for two generations got nerfed bad this gen that is not being ranked now. True, getting those weakness is hard,
Jolteon (85th in the 1760 stats) Fine. Although remember that Manectric requires a Mega slot and has it's uses.
Metagross (98th in the 1760 stats) Has its uses, but I admit that is fine to reject it. However, it has an AV vest thset that is good for him.
Meowstic-M Mor ebordelrine, but fine.
Mienshao What? Why is that outclassed. I don't see a Fighting type with Knock Off + U-turn and not being really putclassed by anything.
Tentacruel (62nd in the 1760 stats) it loses one of the mayor niches with Rain out, but I still see uses as a bulky water in the special set.
Trevenant. (79th in the 1760 stats) Is really going to be rejected? (it got an analysis). I don't see how is that bad. I used mainly A and B rank Pokemon and I used to have problem with this thing It's relies on luck a bit, but has its uses.
Porygon2 at 91st in the 1760 stats: This appear to be usable If that thing is not viable, I know why.
Swampert in the 112st. I don't see even suggested but it gets this position where accepted threats are here.
I see things you are a bit ridiculous in my opinion.
Don't suggest Depoxys fopr S rank. 33 and 34 position 8with No Megastone involves) doesn't deserve this.
Right aboiut Manapohy droppoing. 39 in the stats and having a few uses.
Rotom-W are 2 and Latios are 12. This pokemon should be in A+ rank. Terrakion are 43 and Hippowdon are 44. I understand the former being A but the latter?
Conkeldurr is in 15th and Skarmory on 16th They deserve A by usage. Even Chansey and Dragonite deserves A given usage.
What is doing Gliscor in B+ rank when it's 22. I have suffered a lot against it. And Sylveon are borderline deserving more. I understand the rest except Kabutops. What's doing him in 115 position? Unlike Kingdra and Tornadus-T, it's unviable outside Rain teams.
B rank is one fot he rank with less problems. MManectric (47), Quagsire (49) and Scolipede (52) could deserves B+ rank, though.
B- ranks has Breloom (40) which is debatabkle. But I'm sure Togekiss doesn't deserve that low ranking (41). Roserade (122) and Zygarde (152) are getting so high rating for the usage they are getting.
C+ rank. Espeon and Blissey doesn't deserve C rank. The formner because exceptional utility with Magic Bounce, the latter by tanking special walls as well as Chansey and taking passive damage better. I doubt hat gourgeist (small and XL), Abomasnow (even with Mega) deserves this rank.
C rank. Infernape and Smeargle are overrated but deserves more than C+ rank. Also, Ditto and Magnezone (and Porygon2 is borderline) could deserve higher rank. And what is doing Escavalier (195) and Moltres (253) in such rank?
C- rank. Cloyster are in this rank because it can do this role, deserving more than this ranking with the 67th position.
D rank. What are Tentacruel, Trevenant, Jirachi and Jellicent doing in this rank? I don't see how some of C rank are really better than those pokemon.
56 Donphan This show that hating it is "wrong" in part. Sorry, but Excadrill not outclassed Donphan with those weakness. Hippowdon don't have Rapid Spin in his movepool, and MBlastoise is incompatible with some of the heavy user of Spinning. C or C- rank.
64 Hydreigon Why this don't have a ranking at all?
78 Amoonguss Same with Hydreigon, and I expect a similar ranking for both.
84 Umbreon This is viable, guiys. STAB Foul Play + those defenses?
85 Jolteon here I agree for being outclassed completely by MManectric and Raikou.
86 Gothitelle Shadow tag is a GOD abiulity. This should be ranked somewhere.
92 Gastrodon There's no permarain but this poke has strong niches that can be featured in the metagame.
98 Metagross Assault Vest (the best set) and Agility has a use in OU Being inmune to status drop is a greart thing.
99 Florges I agree for being outclassed completely by Sylveon.
101 Cresselia One of the bestmixed wall in the game, movepool like anybody,
106 Arcanine Here I agree.
108 Reuniclus This should be ranked somewhere in the list.
110 Haxorus Ssme as Reuniclus. Fairies don't counter it.
121 Mienshao I think this deserves at least a C- rank. Reckless Hi Jump Kicks,or Regenerator + U-turn + HJK + KNock Off is too good to pass up.
130 Hawlucha I imagine if that's BL the bird should get a chance in OU ranking.
147 Slowking Outclassed partially by Slowbro but has its uses, specially for Nasty Plot, which Slowbro can't do.
Usage =/= viability. Just because Pokemon dont have much usage doesnt mean they suck; most high-level players will agree that both Deoxys forms are amongst the best pokemon in the meta.
I genuinely cannot muster a reason people think Kyurem is unviable. Sure, Kyurem-B exists, but they serve two different roles in my opinion. Kyurem serves a Pressure Stalling role while Kyurem-B is a wallbreaker. A set of Sub / Roost / Ice Beam / Earth Power greatly differentiates itself from Kyurem-B and maybe even Sub / Toxic / Roost / Ice Beam (or Earth Power) could work as a sort of mini-Gliscor. You guys are forgetting that Kyurem also can run either Physical or Special, making it unpredictable, warranting a Scarf set which can be decent. I think it is certainly viable, and has Pressure to be a staller.
DEOXYS DEFENSE FOR S
Now we all know hyper offense. And if you play it, you will know deo-d. Deo-d is the backbone, motor, and heart of hyper offense. It guarantees at least 1 layer of hazards, and most of the time, it will lay down more than 1 layer. It is often paired with a defiant user, typically bisharp, but thundurus is gaining popularity. It is also paired with aegislash. These 3 pokemon form the core of HO, and deo-d gives them purpose. Not to mention it can forgo magic coat for thunder wave! It is one of THE best support pokes out there, no doubt. While it may lack the offensive presence of thundurus, it makes up for it by being the better support poke. Hyper Offense would not be where it is without deo-d.
DEOXYS DEFENSE FOR S
Now we all know hyper offense. And if you play it, you will know deo-d. Deo-d is the backbone, motor, and heart of hyper offense. It guarantees at least 1 layer of hazards, and most of the time, it will lay down more than 1 layer. It is often paired with a defiant user, typically bisharp, but thundurus is gaining popularity. It is also paired with aegislash. These 3 pokemon form the core of HO, and deo-d gives them purpose. Not to mention it can forgo magic coat for thunder wave! It is one of THE best support pokes out there, no doubt. While it may lack the offensive presence of thundurus, it makes up for it by being the better support poke. Hyper Offense would not be where it is without deo-d.
It is a great Pokemon, but personally I don't think it is S rank worthy. As a bulky lead, it rarely contributes to the team outside of hazard support. Deoxys-D is amazing in its niche, but the niche of bulky suicide lead isn't so versatile that it deserves to be S rank in my opinion. Anyway, I think I may be in the minority, so let me state my case.
Using Deoxys-D means that you cannot use Deoxys-S which is also fairly helpful to HO and is an A+ ranked Pokemon in its own right. (weak argument I know, but important nonetheless.)
Deoxys-D doesn't provide much if any offense to HO teams.
Spinners like Excadrill and even Donphan are generally able to spin away hazards that deoxys sets and are generally able to beat Aegislash and Gengar, the two most common spin blockers. This means that Deoxys-D's hazards are able to be removed with little opportunity cost when facing certain teams.
Pokemon like Bisharp and mega Heracross are often able to OHKO, so Deoxys-D is only able to get rocks up as a lead. This often is not enough for HO to get past certain Pokemon.
A mis-prediction at any point with Deoxys-D can also lead to a lack of any hazards at all. This is uncommon considering that Deoxys-D has a significant prediction advantage, but a surprise taunt could end up shutting Deoxys-D down.
Deoxys-D's job could be done by other hazard setters such as Deoxys-S(who also brings significantly more offensive presence to the table) even though Deoxys-D is the best hazard setter in the tier.
While Deoxys-D can also perform well on team types other than HO, defog often prevents it's screens and hazards from being useful without the added pressure that HO provides.
I still think Deoxys-D is an incredible Pokemon that should be no lower than A+, but I believe that S might be pushing it.
It is a great Pokemon, but personally I don't think it is S rank worthy. As a suicide lead, it rarely contributes to the team outside of hazard support. Deoxys-D is amazing in its niche, but the niche of bulky suicide lead isn't so versatile that it deserves to be S rank in my opinion. Anyway, I think I may be in the minority, so let me state my case.
Using Deoxys-D means that you cannot use Deoxys-S which is also fairly helpful to HO and is an A+ ranked Pokemon in its own right. (weak argument I know, but important nonetheless.)
Deoxys-D doesn't provide much if any offense to HO teams.
Spinners like Excadrill and even Donphan are generally able to spin away hazards that deoxys sets and are generally able to beat Aegislash and Gengar, the two most common spin blockers. This means that Deoxys-D's hazards are able to be removed with little opportunity cost when facing certain teams.
Pokemon like Bisharp and mega Heracross are often able to OHKO, so Deoxys-D is only able to get rocks up as a lead. This often is not enough for HO to get past certain Pokemon.
A mis-prediction at any point with Deoxys-D can also lead to a lack of any hazards at all. This is uncommon considering that Deoxys-D has a significant prediction advantage, but a surprise taunt could end up shutting Deoxys-D down.
Deoxys-D's job could be done by other hazard setters such as Deoxys-S(who also brings significantly more offensive presence to the table) even though Deoxys-D is the best hazard setter in the tier.
While Deoxys-D can also perform well on team types other than HO, defog often prevents it's screens and hazards from being useful without the added pressure that HO provides.
I still think Deoxys-D is an incredible Pokemon that should be no lower than A+, but I believe that S might be pushing it.
mac1275
Bisharp often able to OHKO?
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Deoxys-D: 198-234 (65.1 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Can't provide much offense? Well, it really doesn't have to, but lure Super power still exists to take BIsharp/Ttar
0 Atk Deoxys-D Superpower vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 260-308 (93.1 - 110.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
Can adjust as needed.
A surprise taunt? Nah. It isn't worth considering, considering Magic Coat. Deo-D is HANDS DOWN the best hazard setter in the game. It gets layer upon layers and is incredibly hard to kill, especially if it red cards your best attacker on it. There is no reason to use anything but Hazard setting, and to be honest it needs S rank to represent the role in the current meta as the best lead/hazard setter, and versatile to team support as well. Unfortunately, it seems that no one pays attention to this thread anyways.
Excadrill and Donphan have shadow claw and knock off respectively, although it is rare to see Excadrill with shadow claw and rare to see Donphan period, but I see your point.
mac1275
Bisharp often able to OHKO?
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Deoxys-D: 198-234 (65.1 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Can't provide much offense? Well, it really doesn't have to, but lure Super power still exists to take BIsharp/Ttar
0 Atk Deoxys-D Superpower vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 260-308 (93.1 - 110.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
Can adjust as needed.
A surprise taunt? Nah. It isn't worth considering, considering Magic Coat. Deo-D is HANDS DOWN the best hazard setter in the game. It gets layer upon layers and is incredibly hard to kill, especially if it red cards your best attacker on it. There is no reason to use anything but Hazard setting, and to be honest it needs S rank to represent the role in the current meta as the best lead/hazard setter, and versatile to team support as well. Unfortunately, it seems that no one pays attention to this thread anyways.
I was mislead then. Fixing my post now. Surprised taunts mean taunts from things you were not expecting to taunt. There is often no opportunity cost in attempting to taunt Deoxys-D either.
mac1275
Bisharp often able to OHKO?
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Deoxys-D: 198-234 (65.1 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Can't provide much offense? Well, it really doesn't have to, but lure Super power still exists to take BIsharp/Ttar
0 Atk Deoxys-D Superpower vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 260-308 (93.1 - 110.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
Can adjust as needed.
A surprise taunt? Nah. It isn't worth considering, considering Magic Coat. Deo-D is HANDS DOWN the best hazard setter in the game. It gets layer upon layers and is incredibly hard to kill, especially if it red cards your best attacker on it. There is no reason to use anything but Hazard setting, and to be honest it needs S rank to represent the role in the current meta as the best lead/hazard setter, and versatile to team support as well. Unfortunately, it seems that no one pays attention to this thread anyways.
That calc is using a 65 BP Knock Off. As long as Deoxys-D holds an item, the real calc would be:
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Deoxys-D: 291-346 (95.7 - 113.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
I believe that Deoxys-D is a major contender for S-Rank
Deoxys has always been a controversial pokemon in all forms. It appears as if this is the first gen where Speed and Defense will be given a permanent shot in the OU metagame. Deoxys-S has fallen somewhat out of favor as a hazard setter due to its longevity issues combined with the prevalence of defog, as well as the rising sources of priority that can make limiting its hazard output incredibly easy. This is where Deoxys-D comes in. While it is also hindered by defog, it has the ability to stay healthy for just about as long as necessary. It is also less affected by the new priority attacks because it has the bulk to withstand them. Let's first look at its roles, how those define it as an S-Rank mon, and its counters (or lack thereof).
Roles:
•Hazard Setter:
Deoxys-Defense @ Red Card/Rocky Helmet/Leftovers/Mental Herb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- Taunt/Night Shade
- Magic Coat/Night Shade/Skill Swap
This is the most obvious and almost unarguably the most effective purpose that Deoxys-D brings to the table. It has access to both Spikes and Stealth Rocks and the means by which to set them up incredibly consistently.
•Dual Screens:
Deoxys-Defense @ Light Clay
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Recover/Spikes/Thunder Wave/Night Shade
- Light Screen
- Reflect
Dual screens are interesting. They offer incredible setup opportunity for sweepers, but they are vulnerable to the newly buffed defog. Regardless, screens have at least some merit, especially since Deoxys can set up hazards right alongside them.
•General Wall:
Deoxys-Defense @ Leftovers / Rocky Helmet
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 16 Def / 16 SpD / 228 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Thunderwave/Spikes/Taunt/Knock Off/Agility/Counter/Mirror Coat/Night Shade/Toxic/Snatch
- Recover
- Thunderwave/Spikes/Taunt/Knock Off/Agility/Counter/Mirror Coat/Night Shade/Toxic/Snatch
Definitely the most obscure and unused role, but still a somewhat viable one nonetheless. Rather than playing as a complete wall, though, Deoxys serves as more of a defensive pivot. It can set up hazards throughout the match while using its utility moves such as thunder wave and knock off to cripple the opposing team quite unexpectedly. Its support movepool is endless, and so the options are extensive and unpredictable.
Justification:
S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths.
Click to expand...
I am under the belief that Deoxys offers incredibly little opposing set up risk. In fact, the rise of priority that helped to contribute to the downfall of Deoxys-S actually benefits Deo-d in the sense that even those mons that do have a chance to set up can be dealt with even by offensive teams with a switch brave bird, sucker punch, or aqua jet. And that is assuming that Deoxys doesn't taunt/snatch them first. Defensive mons will have a similarly tough time as deoxys carries a speedy taunt and frequently magic coat to deflect any passive assault. Its weakness to u-turn is a bummer against those opponents that carry it, but sets with recovery, counter, or even a status move can still gain from it. Lead hazard deoxys frequently carries red card to shut down these u-turners as well as most setup mons, allowing it to lay more hazards.
Thus we come to the main controversy: whether these roles are of a great enough magnitude to warrant S-Rank. Based simply off of both precedent and battle experience, I believe that the answer is yes. Smogon never had a problem with straight up banning the deoxys forms for their ability to stack hazards, and this ability is only compounded by the unpredictability of the bunch, which will be elaborated on further in the counters section. Deoxys has the abillity to almost always lay down 2 layers of hazards, and can frequently do more if the conditions are right or it is saved til later in the game. Defog is the obvious hindrance to this that has arisen this generation. Partners such as bisharp help alleviate this though, and deoxys can always be preserved if the threat of a defogger exists. If on a hyper offense team, proper pressure can be applied to prevent the use of defog altogether, very similarly to preventing rapid spin in the past.
In regard to performing many roles, Deoxys certainly has that ability. While it appears to be somewhat shallow and limited to a defensive hazard setter/pivot at first glance, its extensive movepool offers fantastic versatility. While its general role remains the same, it has the ability to be virtually unpredictable with just a few small changes.
Counters:
The benefit of that versatility is shown through its absurd ability to overcome its counters. Taking the hazard lead, for example. Fast taunters such as thundurus pose a problem, except magic coat deflects the taunt. Defogers like mandibuzz would be a problem, if deo-d didn't have a fast taunt itself. The very few pokemon that can ohko it would be a problem (coughbisharpcough), except
4 Atk Deoxys-D Superpower vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 260-308 (93.1 - 110.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
Even magic bouncers can be handled with skill swap or even crippled with a knock off. With a movepool of such great magnitude, nothing can always stop deoxys from doing its job. Given the all-encompassing utility of things like magic coat too, making the small moveset shifts is hardly even a handicap. Its ability to do things like eliminate such a threatening pokemon like bisharp from the game with some surprise antics like superpower give it an incredible purpose in itself.
OVERALL: Deoxys has the ability to wreck shit all day err day. From my perspective, the biggest controversy with a move to S would be whether or not its inherent abilities, disregarding situationals, are sufficient to elevate it to that rank. I personally, believe that they do.
I apologize to MikeDawg for butchering your beautiful post on why Deo-D is deserving of S rank, but as I saw the topic being moved to that, I thought it would be fitting to show it.
It is a great Pokemon, but personally I don't think it is S rank worthy. As a bulky lead, it rarely contributes to the team outside of hazard support. Deoxys-D is amazing in its niche, but the niche of bulky suicide lead isn't so versatile that it deserves to be S rank in my opinion. Anyway, I think I may be in the minority, so let me state my case. deoxys-d is NOT a niche pokemon. if all you think it can it can do is die you may not be in the minority but you are certainly wrong.
Using Deoxys-D means that you cannot use Deoxys-S which is also fairly helpful to HO and is an A+ ranked Pokemon in its own right. (weak argument I know, but important nonetheless.) fair.
Deoxys-D doesn't provide much if any offense to HO teams. HO teams have offense to spare. deo-d provides all necessary tanking and support whilst only taking up one space on a team.
Spinners like Excadrill and even Donphan are generally able to spin away hazards that deoxys sets and are generally able to beat Aegislash and Gengar, the two most common spin blockers. This means that Deoxys-D's hazards are able to be removed with little opportunity cost when facing certain teams. that "little opportunity cost" involves wasting a turn to spin. when playing HO, matches are short and ferocious, and one turn is much more likely to be the moment that decides which trainer will win the battle. that one turn spent clicking the rapid spin button could be the turn you lose your excadrill, then get steamrolled because excadrill was your only check to *insert sweeper here*
Pokemon like Bisharp and mega Heracross are often able to OHKO, so Deoxys-D is only able to get rocks up as a lead. This often is not enough for HO to get past certain Pokemon. these are pokemon both easily removed by HO thanks to their exploitable weaknesses. this goes to show that deoxys does not need to be played as a suicide lead.
A mis-prediction at any point with Deoxys-D can also lead to a lack of any hazards at all. This is uncommon considering that Deoxys-D has a significant prediction advantage, but a surprise taunt could end up shutting Deoxys-D down. deoxys, by nature of stat and ability to forego investment in bulk in place of speed, typically outspeeds most taunters, the obvious exception being thundurus. however, "prediction" is not a valid criticism of any pokemon and shouldn't be used here. however, 'vulnerability to taunt' might be a more interesting criticism, even though deoxys has ways around this (IE a faster taunt of his own)
Deoxys-D's job could be done by other hazard setters such as Deoxys-S(who also brings significantly more offensive presence to the table) even though Deoxys-D is the best hazard setter in the tier. this says he has competition, which is true, but this is true of the rest of the pokemon in S tier as well. as a special attacker, thundurus has oodles of competition. pinsir has competition from bisharp, garchomp, terrakion, and more as a sword's dancer, and charizard has tons of competition as a dragon dancer. however, as you've said, these pokemon are S because they are the best at their selected role. deoxys is the best hazard setter in the game, even though other hazard setters may have likable traits about them IE forretress' resistances or deo-s' offensive stats.
While Deoxys-D can also perform well on team types other than HO, defog often prevents it's screens and hazards from being useful without the added pressure that HO provides. this is like saying pinsir shouldn't be S tier becacuse it's special attacking set is garbage. deoxys has obvious and fruitful strengths that should absolutely be played to, and an inability to do so is a fault of the trainer, not the pokemon.
I still think Deoxys-D is an incredible Pokemon that should be no lower than A+, but I believe that S might be pushing it.
the unparalleled utility it brings to HO teams and the very potentadvantages it has on balanced and stall teams, as well as the few legitimate criticisms or issues the pokemon has performing these tasks absolutely merit S rank.
I genuinely cannot muster a reason people think Kyurem is unviable. Sure, Kyurem-B exists, but they serve two different roles in my opinion. Kyurem serves a Pressure Stalling role while Kyurem-B is a wallbreaker. A set of Sub / Roost / Ice Beam / Earth Power greatly differentiates itself from Kyurem-B and maybe even Sub / Toxic / Roost / Ice Beam (or Earth Power) could work as a sort of mini-Gliscor. You guys are forgetting that Kyurem also can run either Physical or Special, making it unpredictable, warranting a Scarf set which can be decent. I think it is certainly viable, and has Pressure to be a staller.
The pressure stalling just doesnt let it beat mons, that kyu b cant handle. The only exceptions being Ferro, Ttar and Machamp (lol). It is just outclassed as a toxic staller, beause gliscor does it better due to a lot better defensive typing. Kyurem might be able to run Physical or special, but Kyub does both in one set.
While I agree that Deo-D is the best hazard setter in OU right now, I don't know if it deserves the S-rank since hazards are just so damn easy to remove right now. Also what ever happened to the Deosharp core that everyone was complaining about in the Swagplay thread?
Also Kyurem is really unviable in OU right now. Its weaknesses to Fire, Fighting, Steel, and Fairy are really tough for a defensive mon when the top teams in OU are carrying at least one of those types either as an attack or as a mon. Kyu-B outclasses because it at least can outspeed some of those mons that switch-in and mangle them for SE damage, while vanilla Kyurem because set-up bait for too many mons despite Pressure.
Another thing about Deo-D is that the only thing it does for the team is laying down hazards and it usually dies in the process. If the opponent manages to clean the hazards afterwards your left playing 5 vs 6 and its not that difficult to do that. Excadrill can break Aegislash balloon with Ironhead/Rockslide, take the hit and kill it with Earthquake. Donphan can do the same, even an analytic LO starmie could do it with Shadowball, yes its uncommon but possible. On the Defog side we have Mandibuzz, Skarmory and Zapdos who dont care about Bisharp at all and two of them can beat Thundurus as well if they predict the switch and dont give it +2 by using Defog.
Deo-D is without a doubt the best hazard setter in the game, but thats a role only useful to one kind of team and even if you build your team around it with that Aegislash/Bisharp Core its effect is usually not that big to make it S Rank especially considering the opportunity cost beeing that you have only 5 pokemon that can actually kill something.
Another thing about Deo-D is that the only thing it does for the team is laying down hazards and it usually dies in the process. If the opponent manages to clean the hazards afterwards your left playing 5 vs 6 and its not that difficult to do that.
It doesn't have to die in the process. If you want a suicide lead, why not Deo-S? The perks of Deo-D are that it can actually take hits, and thus can come in more than once, can disrupt attackers with Red Card, and can stop setup with Thunder Wave and/or Taunt.
Excadrill can break Aegislash balloon with Ironhead/Rockslide, take the hit and kill it with Earthquake.
252 Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 330-390 (91.4 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
I wouldn't call that taking the hit. Aegislash easily takes the Rock Slide/Iron Head, and KO's with Sacred Sword + Shadow Sneak.
Donphan can do the same, even an analytic LO starmie could do it with Shadowball, yes its uncommon but possible.
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 133-159 (50.9 - 60.9%) -- 89.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Starmie: 366-432 (140.2 - 165.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Not really on Starmie. I'll give you Donphan, but it's never really seriously used.
On the Defog side we have Mandibuzz, Skarmory and Zapdos who dont care about Bisharp at all and two of them can beat Thundurus as well if they predict the switch and dont give it +2 by using Defog.
If they don't use Defog, the Deo-Sharp core worked, by keeping enough pressure on the opposing team not to remove hazards. Now that Thundurus/Sharp are in, the defogger is put at a disadvantage by not being able to do its job. Then again, if they do use Defog, the core works even better. But still, maintaining hazards on the opposing side is success.
considering the opportunity cost beeing that you have only 5 pokemon that can actually kill something.
Deo-D commonly runs Superpower to get past Bisharp. But, regardless, I don't see this as valid. Not every team has Pokemon whose job is to do damage/kill things. Chansey, Mandibuzz, Mega Venusaur, Ferrothorn, Hippowdon, and Skarmory are all A- to A+ ranked threats that are invaluable to their teams, and yet aren't responsible for damaging the opponent. They still can, as can Deo-D with Seismic Toss, Superpower, Ice Beam, or Psycho Boost, but it isn't their main goal.
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Overall, I feel like Deoxys-D belongs in S rank. It is pretty much a necessity for any HO team, works beautifully in a core with Bisharp/Thundurus and Aegislash, and can only be OHKO'd by one unboosted attack in OU.
S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths.
It can wall most pokemon without Dark/Ghost/Bug attacks, can do significant damage to certain important threats, such as Bisharp, Mega Venusaur, and Gliscor, with its decent offenses, can disallow itself being used as setup fodder with Thunder Wave and/or Taunt, and supports Bisharp and Thundurus with little to no opportunity lost. Its main flaw, its typing, is mitigated by its insane bulk and little competition. It is a little one sided, and to be honest that's the only thing that could keep it out of S rank. But, Charizard-Y and Mega Pinsir are also one sided, and yet are metagame defining threats that deserve their ranking. In my very humble opinion, I don't think Deoxys-D is any different.
I was using the Crumbler set, which uses 252 attack EV's. Perhaps it isn't the most common set now, but it is still common, and should be thought of before thinking Excadrill will always beat Aegislash.
That 63% Other is very annoying. I'd assume most of it is variations of the Crumbler set, but who knows. At least 10.6% of Aegislash's run max attack, but different spreads with variations of Speed, HP, and Special are very likely. Also:
It doesn't have to die in the process. If you want a suicide lead, why not Deo-S? The perks of Deo-D are that it can actually take hits, and thus can come in more than once, can disrupt attackers with Red Card, and can stop setup with Thunder Wave and/or Taunt
Ofc it doesnt have to, nevertheless it does like 99% of the time. The HO player wants to get down as many hazards as possible and the opponent will do his best to kill it as fast as possible. So either the HO player decides to skip some turns of hazard laying and switch Deo-D out or it dies. And doing that normaly means that the HO player is left with nothing but SR on the field as SR + 1 layer is usually the maximum you can get out of it.
252 Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 330-390 (91.4 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
I wouldn't call that taking the hit. Aegislash easily takes the Rock Slide/Iron Head, and KO's with Sacred Sword + Shadow Sneak.
Well that assumes Aegi has full atk investment and sacredsword, something that not all sets can claim. Whats more, if Exca predicts the switch in and uses Ironhead/Rockslide on the switch he doesnt even have to take the hit, he can just outspeed and kill. So yes given the right circumstances Aegi can win this but the chances are against him.
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 133-159 (50.9 - 60.9%) -- 89.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Starmie: 366-432 (140.2 - 165.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Not really on Starmie. I'll give you Donphan, but it's never really seriously used.
I should have been more precise here, I meant that Starmie predicts the switch and uses Shadow ball. Obviously he cant take Aegis attack.
If they don't use Defog, the Deo-Sharp core worked, by keeping enough pressure on the opposing team not to remove hazards. Now that Thundurus/Sharp are in, the defogger is put at a disadvantage by not being able to do its job. Then again, if they do use Defog, the core works even better. But still, maintaining hazards on the opposing side is success.
The core works, for two turns. Example: Zapdos gets in on something, predicts the switch to a Defiant user and hits him with Thunderbolt. Next round he does the same again -> Defiant user dead and Zapdos is free to use Defog. Ofc the HO player doesnt have to switch in his Defiant user directly after a Defoger got in, but if he doesnt he risks losing his hazards, and if he does he risks losing his defiant user and probably his hazards right afterwards. That core works perfectly against unprepared teams, but if the opponents team is prepared and knows how to deal with it, there is a solid chance that the hazards wont last all that long.
Deo-D commonly runs Superpower to get past Bisharp. But, regardless, I don't see this as valid. Not every team has Pokemon whose job is to do damage/kill things. Chansey, Mandibuzz, Mega Venusaur, Ferrothorn, Hippowdon, and Skarmory are all A- to A+ ranked threats that are invaluable to their teams, and yet aren't responsible for damaging the opponent. They still can, as can Deo-D with Seismic Toss, Superpower, Ice Beam, or Psycho Boost, but it isn't their main goal.
Well I dont see to many Chanseys, Mandibuzz etc on HO teams and they arent used on them for a reason. HO wants to kill things as fast as possible. Now there are 2 basic ways to do that. Use Deo + 5 sweepers or use 6 sweepers where 1 of them can possibly have SR as well. So ask yourself, is an extra layer of spikes or even two worth the loss of offensive potential if there is a solid chance they get removed early in the game?
I am not saying the core cant work, it obviously does but its not like Deo-D just lays down those hazards and then they stay there for the rest of the game like some people here make it sound. And imo there is a relevant opportunity cost involved here as, for example, Deo-S could set up those rocks as well AND kill stuff afterwards with its powerful attacks.
There are strong arguments about moving Mega Pinsir to A+ both in this thread and in the VR one, and at this point it's hard to deny that the metagame has greatly shifted against it, with pokemon such as Zapdos being very common and Defog becoming an increasingly less safe method for removing hazards.
Speaking of Defog, a common scenario is using it late-game so you can safely set-up with Mega Pinsir and attempt to sweep, only to be met with a +2 Defiant Thundurus who craps all over Pinsir and possibly the rest of your team. This means you should be using Rapid Spin over Defog, but with that you'll have to deal with Aegislash, who is a pain in the ass for every spinner (yes, even Excadrill) not named Mega Blastoise, which you obviously can't use in the same team.
As powerful as Mega Pinsir is, its issues with entry hazards and lack of versatility compared to the other S-rank pokemon mean it should be dropped to A+.
Well just because someone suggested it in the VR thread it doesnt mean it will be demoted so its probably a bit early for an "i told you" post. And even if they demote it, they demoted Dragonite on page 1 and promoted it back to its old rank on page 2 so who knows how long that decision will last even if its made...
Fact is there are just as many, if not more, good arguments for leaving it in S as for demoting it to A+.
While I agree that Deo-D is the best hazard setter in OU right now, I don't know if it deserves the S-rank since hazards are just so damn easy to remove right now. Also what ever happened to the Deosharp core that everyone was complaining about in the Swagplay thread?
Also Kyurem is really unviable in OU right now. Its weaknesses to Fire, Fighting, Steel, and Fairy are really tough for a defensive mon when the top teams in OU are carrying at least one of those types either as an attack or as a mon. Kyu-B outclasses because it at least can outspeed some of those mons that switch-in and mangle them for SE damage, while vanilla Kyurem because set-up bait for too many mons despite Pressure.
While I agree that Deo-D is the best hazard setter in OU right now, I don't know if it deserves the S-rank since hazards are just so damn easy to remove right now. Also what ever happened to the Deosharp core that everyone was complaining about in the Swagplay thread?
Also Kyurem is really unviable in OU right now. Its weaknesses to Fire, Fighting, Steel, and Fairy are really tough for a defensive mon when the top teams in OU are carrying at least one of those types either as an attack or as a mon. Kyu-B outclasses because it at least can outspeed some of those mons that switch-in and mangle them for SE damage, while vanilla Kyurem because set-up bait for too many mons despite Pressure.
* It isn't weak to fire
* Kyu-B has the same speed as Kyurem
* Thanks to its nature, Kyurem usually has better bulk thank Kyu-B
* It also has higher special attack
Kyu-B is better, but I don't agree with most of your points about why Kyurem is unviable.
The thing is so few people actually touch Kyurem (I've absolutely never run across one) that any nominations for its viability would be pure speculation. Someone needs to make a set or two and actually try it out to see what it can accomplish and actually hold up or not. Because it's better SpA and ability could certainly lead to some KO's KyuB can't manage or stall some things out of.
I'll also support Deoxys D for S. Guaranteed to perform it's job, better than any other mon can, and does not HAVE to suicide. People that choose to sack their Deo-D in the beginning and end up losing that's their fault.
