Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[SansNickel]

your forgetting to factor in sandstream, js

"(62.5% if no black sludge)"

edit: oh you mean in the calcs, thanks
even better
252 SpA Gengar Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 118-140 (29.2 - 34.6%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Gengar Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 56-68 (13.8 - 16.8%) -- possible 6HKO
252 SpA Gengar Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 78-94 (19.3 - 23.2%) -- possible 5HKO

 

[____________]

I think more research on Regular Gengar should be done. My main concern is how my Gengar guarantees an advantage, in the fact that it's either going to cause havoc before it leaves the field for good, or as my past battles have shown, the presence of Gengar guarantees a decisive faint. I think Gengar is a very special case here and should be researched as such. I'll be glad to share my findings when I can and will be glad to see your observations.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

The point is, by switching between crunch and pursuit, gengar can only ever get one attack off. TTar will get the job done (either kill gengar or force it to switch, it will never be KO'd.

252 SpA Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 172-204 (42.5 - 50.4%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Hitting two Focus Blasts is almost 50/50 (49% to be exact). I believe standard SubDisable Gengar is still Shadow Ball+Focus Blast, idk why you mention Dazzling Gleam. Anyways, that's still looking bad for Tyranitar. That's the bulkiest Tyranitar you'll ever see as well, most AV T-tars run max Atk. I really fail to see why so many people say that Tyranitar easily Pursuit-traps Gengar, because quite frankly, it doesn't.

 

[SansNickel]

I think more research on Regular Gengar should be done. My main concern is how my Gengar guarantees an advantage, in the fact that it's either going to cause havoc before it leaves the field for good, or as my past battles have shown, the presence of Gengar guarantees a decisive faint. I think Gengar is a very special case here and should be researched as such. I'll be glad to share my findings when I can and will be glad to see your observations.

I still want to know how gengar causes havoc against tyranitar. Dazzling gleam ranges from a 4hko to a 6hko. Gengar only has time to attack once.

252 SpA Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 172-204 (42.5 - 50.4%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Hitting two Focus Blasts is almost 50/50 (49% to be exact). I believe standard SubDisable Gengar is still Shadow Ball+Focus Blast, idk why you mention Dazzling Gleam. Anyways, that's still looking bad for Tyranitar. That's the bulkiest Tyranitar you'll ever see as well, most AV T-tars run max Atk. I really fail to see why so many people say that Tyranitar easily Pursuit-traps Gengar, because quite frankly, it doesn't.

I was replying to someone else, who said they would use dazzling gleam.
Okay, so it's a 2hko (maybe) after SR, but it's a 49% chance. So tyranitar has a 50%+ chance of winning, and if SR isn't up it will surely win. I don't know what spreads other people use for AV ttar, but I've always used the spread show in the calc. It's great to switch into almost any special attacker and just pursuit as they realize they're doing no damage.

 

[farranpoison]

Nominating Froslass for B+

As it is, while outclassed by Deoxys-S, one of the most amazing Spikers, good amount of speed, unpredictable, versatile, fast Destiny Bond, fast Taunt, and can run T-Wave to get "Free turns". It also can run some quite gimmicky sets such as T-Wave + Hex; it also is the second best Sub-Disable user after Gengar, except that Froslass can use the free turns for setting spikes.



I think Froslass fits greatly here, it does give the opponent free turns using Spikes, it cannot create free turns easily, but it can still do it, between T-Wave, Disable, Switcheroo, and Taunt, it can easily set up minimum of 2 layers of spikes thnx to Focus Sash, it may be completely flat out stopped by faster taunt, but outside of Crobat, it is faster than all the pokemons that would taunt/defog as regular bases.

Froslass can switcheroo it's scarf to gain a free turns, it can taunt the pokemons setting up, he has to switch so that's a 1 turn, it can disable a choiced pokemons so that's also a free turn, So Disable/Switcheroo/Taunt/Spikes can put 3 layers of spikes. Even though it loses it's focus Sash, it is a bit risky.

OR you can have Taunt/Disable/T-Wave/Spikes w/ Focus Sash, you can also layer 3 layers of spikes.

of course, you can use Froslass for support and just taking down at least 1 pokemons from the opponent, with T-Wave/Disable/Destiny Bond/Taunt or Spikes, you are either setting minimum 2 layers of spikes, crippling foes, making your pokemons faster (T-Wave), or taking minimum 1 pokemon down thnx to fast speed or Destiny bond.

Replying to this because I'm genuinely curious about Froslass myself.

I don't really feel like Froslass can be a viable OU threat anymore. Last gen it was a suicide spiker, and this gen Defog is everywhere, and stacking spikes on a lead to die early just doesn't do it anymore unless you're Deoxys-S. And Froslass's stats aren't the greatest, as 70/70/110 offenses aren't going to threaten much and the speed, while good, isn't what it used to be with stuff like Greninja/MLucario running around and priority as rampant as ever.

Switcheroo is a great addition, to be sure, but losing Focus Sash so you can't reliably DB an attacker isn't so great.

So yeah, I don't really see how Froslass is good, or even B+ tier. What am I missing here?

 

[Toljik]

I know that the viability rankings aren't supposed to match up with the actual usage statistics, but there's a huge difference this time around. Half the stuff in A rank were in UU territory last month. What gives?

 

[trc]

I know that the viability rankings aren't supposed to match up with the actual usage statistics, but there's a huge difference this time around. Half the stuff in A rank were in UU territory last month. What gives?

Usage stats suck because most people who play suck.

 

[____________]

your forgetting to factor in sandstream, js

I didn't forget, and I also did not forget Assault Vest, though I didn't expect it to have it on. If it uses Crunch, Gengar goes away, lol, whether by switching out or dying, but it exposes the moveset and some of the other Pokemon's roles. Plus it's been noted that T-tar likes eating its leftovers and having a reliable form of recover. And do not forget, when thinking in real time, T-tar is not so bold to come in on Gengar, a Pokemon who is not going to expose its moveset early. As with Conkeldurr, I don't see where I would come in on a Gengar w/ T-tar.

252 SpA Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 236-280 (58.4 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

If one of the Focus Blast misses, T-tar is banged up, and maybe even with entry hazards.

Speaking of unpredictability, T-tar after breaking a sub can always get Destiny Bonded, dat ultimatum.

 

[SansNickel]

I didn't forget, and I also did not forget Assault Vest, though I didn't expect it to have it on. If it uses Crunch, Gengar goes away, lol, whether by switching out or dying, but it exposes the moveset and some of the other Pokemon's roles. Plus it's been noted that T-tar likes eating its leftovers and having a reliable form of recover. And do not forget, when thinking in real time, T-tar is not so bold to come in on Gengar, a Pokemon who is not going to expose its moveset early. As with Conkeldurr, I don't see where I would come in on a Gengar w/ T-tar.

252 SpA Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 236-280 (58.4 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

If one of the Focus Blast misses, T-tar is banged up, and maybe even with entry hazards.

Speaking of unpredictability, T-tar after breaking a sub can always get Destiny Bonded, dat ultimatum.

Saying the moveset is exposed is like saying "oops i lost my celebi to an hp-bug keldeo" in gen V. Too late. But now I know. Many ttar use crunch and pursuit btw.

 

[Monte Cristo]

Speaking of unpredictability, T-tar after breaking a sub can always get Destiny Bonded, dat ultimatum.

Man I love running 5 move sub disale gengar too, what do you run for your 6th slot? I run HP fire but I'm starting to think sludge bomb would be better

 

[Swampertz]

Again asking thoughts on Mega Gardevoir for Rank A or B+?

 

[Hidious]

Again asking thoughts on Mega Gardevoir for Rank A or B+?

She's too slow with no priority and goes down to pretty much any physical attack and is outclassed by a lot of special sweepers you don't have to waste a mega slot for. I would put her at a B-.

 

[Kawaii Kyouko]

It doesn't hope to have decent coverage, it does. Its Ghosts/Poison STAB attack type is has the most STAB coverage in the game. If there was an Ice/Electric Pokemon, then that would be the one.

Just a tiny bit of irrelevant info to the question at hand, but Mamoswine's STABs has the highest amount of STAB coverage.

 

[RufflesPro]

Replying to this because I'm genuinely curious about Froslass myself.

I don't really feel like Froslass can be a viable OU threat anymore. Last gen it was a suicide spiker, and this gen Defog is everywhere, and stacking spikes on a lead to die early just doesn't do it anymore unless you're Deoxys-S. And Froslass's stats aren't the greatest, as 70/70/110 offenses aren't going to threaten much and the speed, while good, isn't what it used to be with stuff like Greninja/MLucario running around and priority as rampant as ever.

Switcheroo is a great addition, to be sure, but losing Focus Sash so you can't reliably DB an attacker isn't so great.

So yeah, I don't really see how Froslass is good, or even B+ tier. What am I missing here?

You are probably right, but it has 80/80/110 offensive stat and not 70/70/110 while 70/70/70 defensive stats.
It does have the speed to use Sub-Disable, that with the combination of T-Wave, Taunt, and Destiny Bond, will give you free turn to set up Spikes, and honestly, I play a lot on Showdown and in-game, not that many people have Defog, and Rapid Spin is easily blocked by Froslass.

 

[Swampertz]

She's too slow with no priority and goes down to pretty much any physical attack and is outclassed by a lot of special sweepers you don't have to waste a mega slot for. I would put her at a B-.

Again I'd disagree with e too slow and mega waste part. She's faster than most with 100 speed and a lot of special bulk and enough defensive bulk to take two hits with no EVs there. Not to mention Pixilate STAB Calm Mind Hyper Voice tears through pokemon, with 6 more SpA points than MCharizard Y just on base.

 

[Ajwf]

Cloyster is generally underwhelming and predictable. With a shell smash, it is either hit down to 1% with focus sash or easily revenged by priority. +2 isn't enough for Cloyster to be good on the physical side, and ice-rock doesn't take down the most common physical wall for it, skarm, before it gets blown away and loses the sash advantage. Any hazards wreck that sash and it just becomes too weak to survive priority after a shell smash. It's excellent lower ladder where people don't know how to solve it, but in the higher area, it is covered too well. heatran, bar razor shell, skarmory, even mega venusaur and jellicent wall it with ease while anything with priority is going to kill it after the sash is broken. It's probably C+/B- rank at best.

Edit: Gastrodon, Politoed, Suicune, rotom-wash and any bulky water basically wall it.

However, victini could easily make an argument for B+, I'm just not going to make it.

 

[SansNickel]

Cloyster is generally underwhelming and predictable. With a shell smash, it is either hit down to 1% with focus sash or easily revenged by priority. +2 isn't enough for Cloyster to be good on the physical side, and ice-rock doesn't take down the most common physical wall for it, skarm, before it gets blown away and loses the sash advantage. Any hazards wreck that sash and it just becomes too weak to survive priority after a shell smash. It's excellent lower ladder where people don't know how to solve it, but in the higher area, it is covered too well. heatran, bar razor shell, skarmory, even mega venusaur and jellicent wall it with ease while anything with priority is going to kill it after the sash is broken. It's probably C+/B- rank at best.

Edit: Gastrodon, Politoed, Suicune, rotom-wash and any bulky water basically wall it.

However, victini could easily make an argument for B+, I'm just not going to make it.

I think Victini is really good. All its coverage moves have really high base power, and it can run both physical, special or mixed. It can run a scarf set or band set similar to latios's specs draco meteor set. Just nuke something with v-create then switch out. Usually you can actually throw out two v-creates because even after the speed drop you're a positive natured base 100. This thing 2hko's even things that resist it, and pretty much OHKO's any non-tank that doesn't resist it. Last gen I used it on a trick room team and sometimes it just plowed through half the team in one go.

I believe the trick room set is especially worthy of note, as it allows it to fire off 4 v-creates in a row. That's crazy. It has nice 100/100/100 bulk although it is lowered, but with the trick room set you can run 252 HP EVs. It also resists common priority in bullet punch and mach punch, though it is weak to shadow sneak and aqua jet (arguably less common). With the trick room set, you effectively have a base 180 STAB move coming off of a base 100 with max attack EVs, with no significant drawbacks, and even increased speed. Add a flame plate or life orb and damn.

Add to the fact that it has 15723495837 coverage moves and support moves (93.5% accurate WoW anyone? yes gimmicky) and with some creativity this thing can be difficult to stop before one or two pokemon have been lost.

It does have a weakness to SR, but that seems to be less of a problem as you see talonflame and whatnot all in the higher tiers.

Victini for B+. At least.

 

[Jukain]

Please explain to me how A fire/flying-type with the moves Solarbeam, STAB Flamethrower and Focus Blast has better coverage than a Ghost/Poison-type Pokemon with Levitate and the moves STAB Shadow Ball, STAB Sludge Bomb/Wave and Focus Blast?

Easy. It uses Fire Blast does over half to pretty much everything in the game, OHKOing a ton of stuff. Solar Beam, Dragon Pulse/Focus Blast, and Earthquake cover up any holes easily. Gengar's coverage is not near as powerful. However, Gengar is an obscenely dangerous Pokemon

I would argue Victini for C Tier. Victini hits very hard in sun and can punch some enormous holes. However, it's got a SR weakness and loses to common priority (Shadow Sneak/Brave Bird/Mega Pinsir's Quick Attack/Aqua Jet). Its main STAB causes a series of stat drops that forces it out pretty much immediately. Victini's power gives it something, but it has a number of weaknesses that mean it really shouldn't be above C Tier.

On Froslass: I don't think it's worth anything above like D Tier. It can have limited effectiveness as a lead, but the existence of Deoxys-D makes that a rather moot point. Spikes / Destiny Bond / Taunt / Ice Beam, I'd presume. It does have Destiny Bond, which is rather nice, so it's not totally outclassed in every aspect ever.

Alright, I'm gonna nominate Mega Charizard Y for A+ Tier. Megazard Y is an excellent Pokemon. It boasts a solid Special Defense and not too shabby Defense. It sits at a base 100 Speed tier, which is plenty enough for many Pokemon in this metagame, and rips apart the metagame with its sun-boosted Fire Blasts. Pretty much everything in OU takes over half from Fire Blast; the few things that don't are demolished by its stellar coverage. Solar Beam OHKOes Rotom-W after SR/the tiniest bit prior damage (think that it's switched into Fire Blast or something), OHKOes Keldeo, and more. Dragon Pulse hits the Lati twins plenty hard. Focus Blast OHKOes Tyranitar and 2HKOes specially defensive Heatran. Earthquake destroys Heatran. Heck, you can even beat Blissey/Chansey with Flare Blitz and Garchomp with HP Ice if you want. It also gets Roost if you want recovery. While you can't have all these moves on one set, they truly speak for its versatility in moveset and the impossibility of truly countering it. Going back to Fire Blast, it just demolishes. Offensive Pokemon that don't resist are OHKOed, and resists face taking 50-75%.

Now let's talk about how it fares against the metagame's threats. The sun Megazard Y provides means it doesn't lose to pretty much any Water-type, which is an incredible feat for a Fire-type. Its typing gives it a handy Fighting resistance, and it handles special Mega Lucario pretty well, in addition to checking physical variants. It destroys Aegislash, one of the metagame's top threats. It wrecks SDef Mega Venusaur in sun with Fire Blast, a massive feat. It walls Genesect's moves bar Thunderbolt, and it doesn't even get the SpA boost so that doesn't even do all that much. It outright demolishes Rotom-W with Solar Beam. Special Landorus-I can't touch it. It does like 75% to Mandibuzz, an impressive feat. There's so much Megazard Y does that can't be matched by much of OU. It's simply an excellent wallbreaker and check to numerous Pokemon thanks to its enormous Special Defense.

The factors keeping me from nominating it for S Rank are a few. First is its inability to touch Latios -- a prominent threat -- and Latias without Dragon Pulse. It also falters against Thundurus-I, Terrakion, CB Talonflame if it's a little bit weakened. It's also walled by Blissey and Chansey most of the time, bar Flare Blitz. Its Stealth Rock weakness necessitates Latios or Excadrill as a partner. Without these drawbacks, it would easily be S Rank; however, it is such a ridiculous wallbreaker and powerhouse that it easily deserves A+ Tier with Megazard X.

 

[alphatron]

Cloyster is generally underwhelming and predictable. With a shell smash, it is either hit down to 1% with focus sash or easily revenged by priority. +2 isn't enough for Cloyster to be good on the physical side, and ice-rock doesn't take down the most common physical wall for it, skarm, before it gets blown away and loses the sash advantage. Any hazards wreck that sash and it just becomes too weak to survive priority after a shell smash. It's excellent lower ladder where people don't know how to solve it, but in the higher area, it is covered too well. heatran, bar razor shell, skarmory, even mega venusaur and jellicent wall it with ease while anything with priority is going to kill it after the sash is broken. It's probably C+/B- rank at best.

Edit: Gastrodon, Politoed, Suicune, rotom-wash and any bulky water basically wall it.

However, victini could easily make an argument for B+, I'm just not going to make it.

I never understood why most cloyster users opted for focus sash because it's a lousy strategy. Being forced to lead with your sweeper or keep hazards off the field just for a sash? Not having any item to boost your damage output? That's all around terrible for any sweeper. Focus sash sweepers are bad all around.
Cloyster should stick to items like icicle plate or life orb (or king's rock if you just won the lottery). You mentioned gastrodon and skarmory as counters to cloyster. Well...

+2 adamant Icicle Plate Icicle Spear vs. 252/252 Bold gastrodon: 92.7 - 110.3%
+2 adamant Icicle Plate Icicle Spear vs. 252/252 Impish Skarmory: 76.3 - 89.8%
And although nobody runs this 252/252 venusaur takes 85.1 - 101.6%

Focus sash cloyster is up there with SD/King's Shield Aegislash and fake out/u-turn life orb mienshao where they're far from optimal and not very threatening. Since this thread is supposed to be about optimal uses for pokemon, I don't think that's being very fair to cloyster. Most bulky waters are 2hko'd by icicle spear or rock blast too if you want to opt for a life orb instead. Cloyster can also easily go mixed, running a hidden power or hydro pump to get around physical walls too.

All this being said, Cloyster has issues setting up on anything that isn't physical, hates seeing choiced scarfed revengers, hates priority from anyone who isn't mamoswine or talonflame, and hates needing to have it's counters already weakened so that it can turn its 2hkos into ohkos. As a sweeper, he needs more support than the likes of lucario and friends. So I'm gonna have to agree that he's a Solid B.

 

[Monte Cristo]

I never understood why most cloyster users opted for focus sash because it's a lousy strategy. Being forced to lead with your sweeper or keep hazards off the field just for a sash? Not having any item to boost your damage output? That's all around terrible for any sweeper. Focus sash sweepers are bad all around.
Cloyster should stick to items like icicle plate or life orb (or king's rock if you just won the lottery). You mentioned gastrodon and skarmory as counters to cloyster. Well...

+2 adamant Icicle Plate Icicle Spear vs. 252/252 Bold gastrodon: 92.7 - 110.3%
+2 adamant Icicle Plate Icicle Spear vs. 252/252 Impish Skarmory: 76.3 - 89.8%
And although nobody runs this 252/252 venusaur takes 85.1 - 101.6%

Focus sash cloyster is up there with SD/King's Shield Aegislash and fake out/u-turn life orb mienshao where they're far from optimal and not very threatening. Since this thread is supposed to be about optimal uses for pokemon, I don't think that's being very fair to cloyster. Most bulky waters are 2hko'd by icicle spear or rock blast too if you want to opt for a life orb instead. Cloyster can also easily go mixed, running a hidden power or hydro pump to get around physical walls too.

All this being said, Cloyster has issues setting up on anything that isn't physical, hates seeing choiced scarfed revengers, hates priority from anyone who isn't mamoswine or talonflame, and hates needing to have it's counters already weakened so that it can turn its 2hkos into ohkos. As a sweeper, he needs more support than the likes of lucario and friends. So I'm gonna have to agree that he's a Solid B.

+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 240-280 (65.9 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

no offense meant, not commenting on the rank, but many people run bold saur, like myself, that and your calc was incorrect, just a quick info correction ^_^.

 

[Josh Morales]

+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 240-280 (65.9 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

no offense meant, not commenting on the rank, but many people run bold saur, like myself, that and your calc was incorrect, just a quick info correction ^_^.

That's still ridiculous damage considering that's neutral and that doesn't include any power boosting item and not all MVenusaurs are fullly physically defensive.

 

[Jukain]

+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 240-280 (65.9 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

no offense meant, not commenting on the rank, but many people run bold saur, like myself, that and your calc was incorrect, just a quick info correction ^_^.

+2 252+ Atk Icicle Plate Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 280-340 (76.9 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That's the calc I'm sure he means.

 

[alphatron]

My mistake then. I usually run into calm megasuar way more often. Regardless though, bold megasuar takes 76.9 - 93.4% from +2 icicle plate icicle spear. So he's still not as safe from that attack.

 

[Rotosect]

One thing to keep in mind about Cloyster is that those calcs don't take into account the possibility that each of the 5 hits could crit, which pushes many 2HKO's into straight OHKO's even after a single crit.
There is a 28% chance that Cloyster will get at least a critical hit when using Icicle Spear or Rock Blast, which is very close to Scald's burn chance. We all know how deceptively high that chance is.

 

[Ajwf]

You still get OHKO'd by giga drain at that point. Let's do some advanced math on that.

Saying max role, mega venu will live with 26 HP. Giga drain takes away all 242 HP that Cloyster had, and gives 141 back, giving Venu at min 167, aka a little more than 46% health.

Say you role min, get him down to 25%, or 91 HP. 232 HP is what he ends with. 63% of his health.

So, saying Mega venu comes in right away (Cloyster is probably leading or coming in early, as that is standard tactic for this guy because ice weak)

The actual end-turn damage is 37-54% health using Icicle plate. So gg damage?