I don't think Stealth Rock is broken at all (yes I misread the poll options ;_;), but I believe that a suspect test could be useful. I don't believe the community would vote to ban Stealth Rock, so it wouldn't take all that much time, but through a test, we could learn a lot about our metagame. Also, could somebody teach me the definition of theorymon? Because I see the word thrown around a lot, and I think it's being selectively used (people calling arguments theorymon and then using their own theorymon arguments).
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Would we want a Stealth Rock suspect test? [Read #196]
- Thread starter Kidogo
- Start date
- Status
MikeDawg
Banned deucer.
Hi! I'm rather new here, but I believe that I have some sort of valid input:
I don't think that Dragonite and Volcarona will be all that overpowered without Stealth Rocks, because they are generally run with spinners anyway. On a good team, the SR weak mons should have the support they need to have that weakness alleviated, so they should be functioning with impunity anyway. In fact, what happens if rocks just don't have time to be set up that battle? Volcarona and Dragonite don't automatically win, they are still quite managable lest the team have an incredible weakness. While rocks do indeed discourage the utilization of these pokes in the first place, if they do become more centralizing and even too hard to deal with, banning those few troublesome pokes is much less impactful than keeping around such a move as Stealth Rocks. The issue with using a single move or pokemon to justify leaving a potentially overpowered threat in the tier is that if a team doesn't carry that pokemon or move, then they are hypothetically screwed. This only places an even further reliance on team match up as well.
I don't think that Dragonite and Volcarona will be all that overpowered without Stealth Rocks, because they are generally run with spinners anyway. On a good team, the SR weak mons should have the support they need to have that weakness alleviated, so they should be functioning with impunity anyway. In fact, what happens if rocks just don't have time to be set up that battle? Volcarona and Dragonite don't automatically win, they are still quite managable lest the team have an incredible weakness. While rocks do indeed discourage the utilization of these pokes in the first place, if they do become more centralizing and even too hard to deal with, banning those few troublesome pokes is much less impactful than keeping around such a move as Stealth Rocks. The issue with using a single move or pokemon to justify leaving a potentially overpowered threat in the tier is that if a team doesn't carry that pokemon or move, then they are hypothetically screwed. This only places an even further reliance on team match up as well.
It would leave Smogon with 4 and a half months from now, which probably is not enough time. Given previous generations we will probably end up having a broken metagame for over a year with all the RMT archive Shaymin-S teams. However, I would really like to see SR suspected. It brings so much power to the table that it affects the viability of too many things, which is not a good thing imo. Same can be said for weather but a specific weather isn't as essential as SR.
fwiw, I don't really buy the it stops Pokemon from becoming broken argument. In a lot of cases, it furthers their counters and checks moreso.
I've always felt the best abusers of Stealth Rock are those broken threats, and yes, a lot of them do take more damage from Stealth Rock (Dragonite, Volcarona, etc) but they begin OHKOing through Pokemon that could normally take a hit because of Stealth Rock. Even bringing up Dragonite Multiscale seems faulty because it would just lead to sand being used more if anything.
Imagine a metagame where Moltres or Gyarados can actually be used to check Volcarona, or a metagame where Weavile can actually revenge Dragonite with Ice Shard, or that Skarmory can actually beat a Dragon Dance Dragonite regardless of luck. Removing Stealth Rock makes this possible.
Some Pokemon will undoubtedly improve a lot like Kyurem-B, but I just don't see it being enough to change things for the worst. Something like Kyurem-B would lead to an increase in Spikes usage, Spike setters can easily set up on Kyurem-B (Forretress/Ferrothorn), and the lack of Stealth Rock would make opposing Rapid Spinners less appealing. It's a chain of events that just work itself out.
I think it's one-sided to appeal to the "Stealth Rock keeps these threats in check" argument. A trick analysis writers use to get across how good something is is to provide calcs with Stealth Rock, where it undoubtedly begins to 2HKO those big bulky threats. Those defensive answers is what Stealth Rock hinders, and its why I feel the metagame could be a lot better. It's not wanting a slow-paced metagame, it's wanting one where I feel every game isn't decided solely on team-matchup just because of how much advantage Stealth Rock can bring one side.
If you've ever felt overwhelmed in a battle by how many threats they have and find yourself constantly switching and on the weak foot, I'd be willing to bet Stealth Rock started a domino effect in that game and it simply snowballed out of control. Without Stealth Rock, you can begin taking control of those threats while keeping your team healthy for whatever is in store.
And in worst-case scenario, we just remove a guilty offender (Volcarona?) if it provides to be too much to handle. I think it'd be worth it for how much better the metagame would become.
I've always felt the best abusers of Stealth Rock are those broken threats, and yes, a lot of them do take more damage from Stealth Rock (Dragonite, Volcarona, etc) but they begin OHKOing through Pokemon that could normally take a hit because of Stealth Rock. Even bringing up Dragonite Multiscale seems faulty because it would just lead to sand being used more if anything.
Imagine a metagame where Moltres or Gyarados can actually be used to check Volcarona, or a metagame where Weavile can actually revenge Dragonite with Ice Shard, or that Skarmory can actually beat a Dragon Dance Dragonite regardless of luck. Removing Stealth Rock makes this possible.
Some Pokemon will undoubtedly improve a lot like Kyurem-B, but I just don't see it being enough to change things for the worst. Something like Kyurem-B would lead to an increase in Spikes usage, Spike setters can easily set up on Kyurem-B (Forretress/Ferrothorn), and the lack of Stealth Rock would make opposing Rapid Spinners less appealing. It's a chain of events that just work itself out.
I think it's one-sided to appeal to the "Stealth Rock keeps these threats in check" argument. A trick analysis writers use to get across how good something is is to provide calcs with Stealth Rock, where it undoubtedly begins to 2HKO those big bulky threats. Those defensive answers is what Stealth Rock hinders, and its why I feel the metagame could be a lot better. It's not wanting a slow-paced metagame, it's wanting one where I feel every game isn't decided solely on team-matchup just because of how much advantage Stealth Rock can bring one side.
If you've ever felt overwhelmed in a battle by how many threats they have and find yourself constantly switching and on the weak foot, I'd be willing to bet Stealth Rock started a domino effect in that game and it simply snowballed out of control. Without Stealth Rock, you can begin taking control of those threats while keeping your team healthy for whatever is in store.
And in worst-case scenario, we just remove a guilty offender (Volcarona?) if it provides to be too much to handle. I think it'd be worth it for how much better the metagame would become.
It's easy?
a) it takes a team spot on your team, leaving more loopholes for your opponent to exploit
b) Spinners are easily predicted and taken advantage off
c) After the spinner dies, no guarantee your opponent can't take advantage and set up SR anyways
d) With the exception of Starmie(who has LOADS of weaknesses) and to some extent Tentacruel, most spinners are:
i) Frustratingly slow
ii) Little to no offensive pressure
iii) Easily dealt with
e) Rapid Spin gives the opponent a free set up turn(which can be catastrophic in some cases, like letting Landorus get a free Rock Polish).
I would enjoy seeing a suspect just to see how it turns out, since I'm impartial atm. Volcarona and Dragonite would become S Rank threats, since Volcarona's third move greatly determines what counters it, so it becomes much much harder to play around. Dragonite is almost always guaranteed a Dragon Dance, and, like someone mentioned before, its counters can be worn down by CB Terrakion. Spike would definitely rise in usage to get those OHKO's that would normally be 2HKO's. But now I'm looking at the other side of the argument. We can ban things that become broken with SR banned. Another thing I noticed is how many Pokemon become viable now with SR gone (ie: Moltres). This could bring some nice new diversity to the metagame before Gen 6 comes and we have to ditch this one. Also, many of Volcarona and Dragonite's counters get a boost without SR. Volcarona (without HP Rock) is hard countered by Gyarados, and no Giga Drain and no rain means Terrakion can beat it (Counting Terrak since Sash set is seen reasonably often). Skarmory now retains Sturdy is it switches in on a DD, and can Whirlwind it out. It would also make some defensive threats more viable. But, like I said at first, I don't think we can really have a full understanding of the metagame without SR until we test it.
Stealth rock needs suspect testing , its too dam easy to use no drawbacks what so ever
It would force people to actually use more predictions to counter the opposing pokemon than just using a move that stays forever unless its spinned
Its because of rocks that OU tier is so dam small and all teams run the same pokes over and over again and the reason why Sand and Rain teams dominate
It would force people to actually use more predictions to counter the opposing pokemon than just using a move that stays forever unless its spinned
Its because of rocks that OU tier is so dam small and all teams run the same pokes over and over again and the reason why Sand and Rain teams dominate
1. OU is the largest it has even been
2. Rocks are not the reason rain and sand dominate. It's because Water is a great attacking and defending type, whereas Fire and Ice are only good offensive types. Not only that, but Ninetales and Abomasnow suck. Sand is used because it's an easy way to counter other whethers and is the best weather for stall to use.
3. A prediction based metagame would be a luck based metagame. This would prevent people from just switching back and forth between Pokémon hoping to stall out an opponent, which would eventually boil down to 50/50 decisions. Rocks, in fact, make you think more about switching since you have to take into account that you can't switch forever.
4. SR does have a drawback, though small. It uses up a turn. You can set up rocks, but suddenly the opponent gets a free switch and can set up on your setter. Obviously there is much more reward than risk, but there is a risk, no matter how small.
Dark Fallen Angel
FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!
I would certainly stop using spinners if weren't for Stealth Rock, even with Spikes. There are many Pokémon immune to Spikes anyway. Starmie is good but is outclassed offensively by Keldeo, with its only advantage being the extra Speed (however, Keldeo is stronger, LACKS a Pursuit weakness - in fact, it resists that move and threathens every single user of Pursuit - and Secret Sword is a better move to get past Blissey and Chansey than Psyshock). Tentacruel lacks any offensive presence, and is a rather meh Pokémon if rain is not active; Toxic Spikes are mediocre on this metagame. We all know how Forretress is setup bait for many top threats on the metagame, even those that it can potentially wall. It is also the easiest spinner to spinblock against (except against Gengar), lacks reliable recovery, and is outclassed as a wall by Skarmory. As for Donphan... Well, lack of relible recovery, no reason to use it over Hippowdon, and the fact that Ice Shard can't even 3HKO Landorus-T!!! says all.
I voted that I believe that Stealth Rock is not broken, but it would be interesting to see a metagame without it. Maybe it isn't better than a metagame with it? We do not know. Dragonite and Volcarona would certainly become the kings of metagame, but with Moltres being viable, other top threats like Sheer Force Landorus would become less viable (although I predict that people would then use more physical Landorus since it can lure and KO Moltres with Stone Edge). People are, however, forgetting that sun would also get a boost. Darmanitan would certainly love being free from the necessity to deal with Stealth Rock, and would have much more chances to spam Flare Blitz. Victini would love that even more, and since Victini is very bulky for an offensive Pokémon, it would have much more switch-in opportunities. Sun would certainly get an huge boost, and I predict that it would make a bigger impact on a metagame without Stealth Rock.
I also predict that both Sand and Heatran will be used more. Tyranitar can threaten both Volcarona and Dragonite with the right move as long as they do not boosted, and the sandstorm will become the easiest way to break Mulsticale. Choice Scarf Landorus will probably rise usage on sandstorm teams since it can consistently revenge kill both Dragonite and Volcarona. Heatran can also deal with both Dragonite and Volcarona if it runs an standard offensive set with Air Balloon (to avoid Earthquake and HP Ground), Hidden Power Ice, and Stone Edge (to OHKO Dragonite and Volcarona, respectively). Because sun teams would rise on usage, Heatran would also become much more useful. The only thing that would prevent it from becoming a staple on teams, would be rain.
Speaking of rain, Tornadus-I and Thundurus-T would be excellent choices, if not staples, for rain teams. Without having to waste a teamslot on a spinner, Gyarados would rise on usage because not only it can counter Volcarona that lack Hidden Power Rock, it also does not have to worry about Stealth Rock at all. Gyarados would also have less chances of ruining the defensive synergy of the team, since it doesn't force you to run Starmie or Tentacruel on the team (Forretress is a good spinner to run with Gyarados, but Starmie and Tentacruel are much better spinners on rain).
And Charizard would actually become a viable choice for sun teams. Lol.
On the Volcarona issue: it can opt to run Giga Drain to deal better with bulky Water-types and Ground-types and recover damage from Life Orb, while beating Terrakion and Keldeo, or it can opt to run Hidden Power Ground to defeat Tentacruel and Heatran while still beating Terrakion, or it can opt to run Hidden Power Rock to deal with Dragonite, Salamence, Moltres, opposing Volcarona, and Gyarados. Because of it and Dragonite, I think that people would use more revenge killers with Rock-type attacks to deal with them both.
I've voted no because Stealth Rock has too wide of an effect on the OU metagame, not just because it isn't broken.
A suspect test for Stealth Rock will not go the same way as a test for Pokemon or abilities will. Stealth Rock affects every single Pokemon in the metagame, and removing it will probably cause more destability than we have 'have now'. As Chou Toushio said, unbanning Stealth Rock will throw the metagame out of whack because we'll be messing around with the numerous amount of Pokemon that will change in viability after Stealth Rock is removed, and lose focus on Stealth Rock itself. Powerful yet Stealth Rock weak Pokemon will probably become broken, and a lot more Pokemon will become much more common. This massive shift that will probably happen is extremely undesirable for any common suspect test, as it does nothing but prove that Stealth Rock indeed has a wide effect on the OU metagame, something that is not only obvious but also something most of us, pro-ban or not, already agree on.
Besides, it's not as if the OU metagame is unstable right now. The banning of Tornadus-T, Deoxys-D, and Genesect has already done a lot to push OU in the right direction, so OU is relatively stable. Even if you argue that it isn't; it's hard for you to successfully point the finger at Stealth Rock- which we've had for years and never really had a problem with. A suspect test would not be able to prove that Stealth Rock is broken. If you seek to make the metagame more stable, look at Landorus or some other potentially broken Pokemon for suspecting, not Stealth Rock.
And, let's think for a second. If we do carry on with this suspect test, how will we prove that Stealth Rock is broken? In the past, we have based broken-ness on a couple of factors- how much that suspect is taken into consideration in teambuilding, how easy it is to counter, and how much it affects games and game results during battles. A suspect test that discludes Stealth Rock on purpose will focus not on the absence of Stealth Rock but the shifting of the Pokemon that are affected by it. If we end up with x amount of Pokemon that rise in usage and y amount of Pokemon that fall or get banned, how will we be able to determine that that scenario there is significantly more stable than our current metagame if the banning of Stealth Rock causes so many shifts that all alter the end result of such a test? A suspect test will not be able to solidly prove that Stealth Rock is broken, and therefore would be a waste of time.
A suspect test for Stealth Rock will not go the same way as a test for Pokemon or abilities will. Stealth Rock affects every single Pokemon in the metagame, and removing it will probably cause more destability than we have 'have now'. As Chou Toushio said, unbanning Stealth Rock will throw the metagame out of whack because we'll be messing around with the numerous amount of Pokemon that will change in viability after Stealth Rock is removed, and lose focus on Stealth Rock itself. Powerful yet Stealth Rock weak Pokemon will probably become broken, and a lot more Pokemon will become much more common. This massive shift that will probably happen is extremely undesirable for any common suspect test, as it does nothing but prove that Stealth Rock indeed has a wide effect on the OU metagame, something that is not only obvious but also something most of us, pro-ban or not, already agree on.
Besides, it's not as if the OU metagame is unstable right now. The banning of Tornadus-T, Deoxys-D, and Genesect has already done a lot to push OU in the right direction, so OU is relatively stable. Even if you argue that it isn't; it's hard for you to successfully point the finger at Stealth Rock- which we've had for years and never really had a problem with. A suspect test would not be able to prove that Stealth Rock is broken. If you seek to make the metagame more stable, look at Landorus or some other potentially broken Pokemon for suspecting, not Stealth Rock.
And, let's think for a second. If we do carry on with this suspect test, how will we prove that Stealth Rock is broken? In the past, we have based broken-ness on a couple of factors- how much that suspect is taken into consideration in teambuilding, how easy it is to counter, and how much it affects games and game results during battles. A suspect test that discludes Stealth Rock on purpose will focus not on the absence of Stealth Rock but the shifting of the Pokemon that are affected by it. If we end up with x amount of Pokemon that rise in usage and y amount of Pokemon that fall or get banned, how will we be able to determine that that scenario there is significantly more stable than our current metagame if the banning of Stealth Rock causes so many shifts that all alter the end result of such a test? A suspect test will not be able to solidly prove that Stealth Rock is broken, and therefore would be a waste of time.
This is pretty interesting imo, I'm not going to lie, it'll be interesting to imagine a metagame where SR does not exist. But we don't (or at least shouldn't) ban things just because the other option seems to be more enjoyable, we should ban things if they are broken.
My dumb question is, how can we determine if SR is really broken? Because a ton of Pokemon are un-viable with SR and could have been viable with SR out of the picture? Doesn't that apply to multiple things already? >.>
I don't know what to think about this tbh, both arguments makes good points. x_x
My dumb question is, how can we determine if SR is really broken? Because a ton of Pokemon are un-viable with SR and could have been viable with SR out of the picture? Doesn't that apply to multiple things already? >.>
I don't know what to think about this tbh, both arguments makes good points. x_x
I voted no.
I just don’t see the point of suspecting stealth rock. I’m sure everyone can agree that stealth rock centralizes the metagame. But what does banning stealth rock actually do to the metagame? All we’d actually be doing by banning stealth rock is re-defining the entire metagame. It might be a better metagame then the one we have currently, but it would be a completely different metagame. I think the question is how far is smogon willing to go to create a competitive and balanced metagame.
Why create a new metagame now if we are trying to fix our current one? It’s like going out of our way to make gen 5 similar to the gen 4 metagame. While the metagame would be better overall, more balanced, and more competitive, it would no longer even resemble our current metagame.
According to this thread:http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66515, adherence to the metagame mechanics is something that smogon values in a metagame. I believe that the goal of suspect testing is not to create an entirely new metagame, but to modify the current one to make it as balanced and competitive as possible, while also trying to adhere to the major mechanics of the current metagame. It is not always possible to improve the metagame and also adhere to the mechanics. However, past suspect tests have shown that the bw metagame is still improving without modifying the mechanics. I think that modifying the mechanics to improve the metagame should be our last option, especially since it is still possible to improve the metagame while still adhering to the current mechanics.
Many would say that the competitive aspect is the most important part of the game and is more important then adherence. I agree to this. However, why try to redefine the metagame now instead of modifying the current one? None of these suspect methods promise a more competitive metagame than the other. However, modifying our current metagame allows us to adhere to the bw battling mechanics as well as work on improving the metagame.
Would suspecting stealth rock really be more efficient than suspecting landorus, and other bw threats? Imo, the answer is no. By dealing with other powerful bw suspects first, we can work on improving the metagame while also adhering to the mechanics. Stealth rock is something that should be addressed later, because the metagame is still able to become more balanced while adhering to the metagame mechanics. If this fails and bw is still crap after these bans, then I would support a suspect test for SR. I believe that trying to adhere to the metagame mechanics first is more rewarding and redefining the metagame should only be used as a last-ditch effort once it is proven that the mechanics are the mains source of problem for the metagame.
I just don’t see the point of suspecting stealth rock. I’m sure everyone can agree that stealth rock centralizes the metagame. But what does banning stealth rock actually do to the metagame? All we’d actually be doing by banning stealth rock is re-defining the entire metagame. It might be a better metagame then the one we have currently, but it would be a completely different metagame. I think the question is how far is smogon willing to go to create a competitive and balanced metagame.
Why create a new metagame now if we are trying to fix our current one? It’s like going out of our way to make gen 5 similar to the gen 4 metagame. While the metagame would be better overall, more balanced, and more competitive, it would no longer even resemble our current metagame.
According to this thread:http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66515, adherence to the metagame mechanics is something that smogon values in a metagame. I believe that the goal of suspect testing is not to create an entirely new metagame, but to modify the current one to make it as balanced and competitive as possible, while also trying to adhere to the major mechanics of the current metagame. It is not always possible to improve the metagame and also adhere to the mechanics. However, past suspect tests have shown that the bw metagame is still improving without modifying the mechanics. I think that modifying the mechanics to improve the metagame should be our last option, especially since it is still possible to improve the metagame while still adhering to the current mechanics.
Many would say that the competitive aspect is the most important part of the game and is more important then adherence. I agree to this. However, why try to redefine the metagame now instead of modifying the current one? None of these suspect methods promise a more competitive metagame than the other. However, modifying our current metagame allows us to adhere to the bw battling mechanics as well as work on improving the metagame.
Would suspecting stealth rock really be more efficient than suspecting landorus, and other bw threats? Imo, the answer is no. By dealing with other powerful bw suspects first, we can work on improving the metagame while also adhering to the mechanics. Stealth rock is something that should be addressed later, because the metagame is still able to become more balanced while adhering to the metagame mechanics. If this fails and bw is still crap after these bans, then I would support a suspect test for SR. I believe that trying to adhere to the metagame mechanics first is more rewarding and redefining the metagame should only be used as a last-ditch effort once it is proven that the mechanics are the mains source of problem for the metagame.
I voted for the first option, as anyone who followed the entry hazards thread would guess. I think saying we don't have time to test it is a terrible cop out. 6th gen isn't here yet, and we have four months until it does, so there's no reason not to suspect something that is potentially broken. One of the arguments people are using is that the fallout that would result from banning stealth rock would take way too much time to fix. I think people are grossly exaggerating how broken certain threats will be, but, if there are certain things that become clearly broken, we can get rid of them. If it's true that Volcarona and Dragonite are absurd in that metagame (which I honestly doubt), we can have shorter suspect tests.
Four months is plenty of time to clean up the metagame before X and Y come out, and doing this suspect test now will allow us to focus completely on what 6th gen brings.
Four months is plenty of time to clean up the metagame before X and Y come out, and doing this suspect test now will allow us to focus completely on what 6th gen brings.
Stealth Rock is not broken, so we don't need to suspect test it. We can claim this, similarly to how we can claim Scizor, Ferrothorn, etc are not broken despite their ubiquity.
We ban / test elements that are uncompetitive or largely restricting to our metagame. There's nothing uncompetitive about SR - in fact, SR is an exemplar of tactical play in Pokemon. We set rocks (and other entry hazards) to facilitate the 6 KOs needed to seal victory. It's not like OHKO moves (which are banned), where one can auto-KO an opponent by rolling a dice. An OHKO move is a gamble, a crapshoot; Stealth Rock is honest work that brings one closer to success.
Stealth Rock is not a risk-free move - one must actually create an opportunity to set up SR. Many players attempt this by using a dedicated SR lead. They end up setting SR... but at an expense of their Pokemon. SR in exchange for one Pokemon is an equal trade-off, imo. I have also played and witnessed many games, where the opening made by setting up rocks proved to be the player's downfall, because of the dangerous threat that they have left unaccounted in favor for SR.
Lest you want to lose your Pokemon / advantageous position / game, you must prepare a safe opportunity to expend a turn for SR. Give me an Ability that sets up free SR / entry hazards upon switching in and we have something worth suspect testing. Furthermore, if the opponent has a Rapid Spinner now you must have a spinblocker to preserve SR, and that's already a third of your team invested in keeping Rocks up. That's significant support if you ask me. Nothing uncompetitive about it.
Stealth Rock being this overwhelming limiting force in our meta is also over-exaggerated. The fact that Pokemon like Kyurem-B, Dragonite, Volcarona, Thundurus-T, Tornadus, Ninetales, Salamence, Gyarados, and Cloyster are viable already reduce the credibility of this claim. Hell, Moltres & Charizard are super SR-weak, and they are one of the biggest threats in RU and NU, respectively, where SR options are plentiful. Let's not forget that we have myriads of Pokemon who are neutral or resist SR - it's easy to minimize the damage done by SR through good teambuilding. Not accounting the ubiquitous SR when all the necessary tools are available is simply put poor teambuilding.
What more, you have control over SR going up or not. If you happen to have a critical member weak to SR, there are various approaches you can take to minimize or eliminate the effect of SR. Use Team Preview to identify the one or two potential SR users and lead with a Pokemon that will be the most advantageous. Employ a fast Taunter if the opponent is leading with a suicide lead. Pack a Magic Bouncer or a Rapid Spin user. I hope I don't need to really elaborate further into detail, since I am sure you know how to deal with SR by now. Just like any strategy, there are countermeasures to SR if your team happen to be weak to this entry hazard.
I am surprised that people are calling for a SR test, when Spikes / Toxic Spikes are far more egregious variants of entry hazard. Unlike SR, Spikes is stackable and can remove up to a quarter of all grounded Pokmon without Magic Guard. Toxic Spikes afflicts all non-grounded non-Poison / Steel-type with poison (that's 12.5% of your health EVERY turn). SR alone does not accrue enough damage - hazard damage only becomes overwhelming when Spikes or Toxic Spikes enters into the picture. Anybody who played ADV would know how Spikes formed a metagame that largely favored Flying-types and Levitate users (Zapdos, Flygon, Skarmory, Gengar, and Aerodactyl), due to the stackable nature of Spikes heavily punishing all grounded mons without discrimination. I'd say Stealth Rock leveled the playing field by inflicting damage upon Pokemon immune to Spikes.
tl;dr 1) SR is tactical play with plenty of counter measures made available to us without overly limiting our options and 2) testing / banning SR and while keeping Spikes / Toxic Spikes makes little sense
We ban / test elements that are uncompetitive or largely restricting to our metagame. There's nothing uncompetitive about SR - in fact, SR is an exemplar of tactical play in Pokemon. We set rocks (and other entry hazards) to facilitate the 6 KOs needed to seal victory. It's not like OHKO moves (which are banned), where one can auto-KO an opponent by rolling a dice. An OHKO move is a gamble, a crapshoot; Stealth Rock is honest work that brings one closer to success.
Stealth Rock is not a risk-free move - one must actually create an opportunity to set up SR. Many players attempt this by using a dedicated SR lead. They end up setting SR... but at an expense of their Pokemon. SR in exchange for one Pokemon is an equal trade-off, imo. I have also played and witnessed many games, where the opening made by setting up rocks proved to be the player's downfall, because of the dangerous threat that they have left unaccounted in favor for SR.
Lest you want to lose your Pokemon / advantageous position / game, you must prepare a safe opportunity to expend a turn for SR. Give me an Ability that sets up free SR / entry hazards upon switching in and we have something worth suspect testing. Furthermore, if the opponent has a Rapid Spinner now you must have a spinblocker to preserve SR, and that's already a third of your team invested in keeping Rocks up. That's significant support if you ask me. Nothing uncompetitive about it.
Stealth Rock being this overwhelming limiting force in our meta is also over-exaggerated. The fact that Pokemon like Kyurem-B, Dragonite, Volcarona, Thundurus-T, Tornadus, Ninetales, Salamence, Gyarados, and Cloyster are viable already reduce the credibility of this claim. Hell, Moltres & Charizard are super SR-weak, and they are one of the biggest threats in RU and NU, respectively, where SR options are plentiful. Let's not forget that we have myriads of Pokemon who are neutral or resist SR - it's easy to minimize the damage done by SR through good teambuilding. Not accounting the ubiquitous SR when all the necessary tools are available is simply put poor teambuilding.
What more, you have control over SR going up or not. If you happen to have a critical member weak to SR, there are various approaches you can take to minimize or eliminate the effect of SR. Use Team Preview to identify the one or two potential SR users and lead with a Pokemon that will be the most advantageous. Employ a fast Taunter if the opponent is leading with a suicide lead. Pack a Magic Bouncer or a Rapid Spin user. I hope I don't need to really elaborate further into detail, since I am sure you know how to deal with SR by now. Just like any strategy, there are countermeasures to SR if your team happen to be weak to this entry hazard.
I am surprised that people are calling for a SR test, when Spikes / Toxic Spikes are far more egregious variants of entry hazard. Unlike SR, Spikes is stackable and can remove up to a quarter of all grounded Pokmon without Magic Guard. Toxic Spikes afflicts all non-grounded non-Poison / Steel-type with poison (that's 12.5% of your health EVERY turn). SR alone does not accrue enough damage - hazard damage only becomes overwhelming when Spikes or Toxic Spikes enters into the picture. Anybody who played ADV would know how Spikes formed a metagame that largely favored Flying-types and Levitate users (Zapdos, Flygon, Skarmory, Gengar, and Aerodactyl), due to the stackable nature of Spikes heavily punishing all grounded mons without discrimination. I'd say Stealth Rock leveled the playing field by inflicting damage upon Pokemon immune to Spikes.
tl;dr 1) SR is tactical play with plenty of counter measures made available to us without overly limiting our options and 2) testing / banning SR and while keeping Spikes / Toxic Spikes makes little sense
I read your entire post but specifically want to reply to this: what defines 'broken'? Everyone currently seems to think that 'broken' is some mix of 'lack of good counters', 'a large threat' and 'overcentralizing'. Your example with Scizor/Ferrothorn/etc. is really bad because if we take a look at the OU stats from April (May doesn't seem to be up yet but I doubt there will be significant changes), Scizor, Politoed, Ferrothorn and whatnot don't even break 25% in presence. Compare this to stealth rock, I have no data but nobody will argue with me that it is anywhere near 25%, 50% or even 75%.
If you feel like stealth rock is not broken, why don't you play a non-batonpass OU team without said move and see how high on the ladder you can get? I am strongly of the opinion that competitively you have absolutely no chance unless you pack this specific move on your team, something that is absolutely unnecessary for any other move or even pokemon.
I've actually made a team consisting solely of 6 Sweepers in BW1, and I had quite a bit of success with it in my OST games. The damage output dealt by my sweepers far exceeded the damage output offered by SR, and I couldn't afford to spend a turn setting up Rocks, due to the nature of the team.
My success story using a non-SR team is irrelevant, though. I never denied SR's amazing utility in DPP or BW games - that's why it's everywhere, just like any good team has a dragon sponge, etc. Ubiquity =/= "must test for brokenness!"
My success story using a non-SR team is irrelevant, though. I never denied SR's amazing utility in DPP or BW games - that's why it's everywhere, just like any good team has a dragon sponge, etc. Ubiquity =/= "must test for brokenness!"
ElectivireRocks
Banned deucer.
We've already heard the arguments form both sides countless times and I don't think there's anything else to add on how SR affects the metagame.
Is this suspect test happening?
If the answer is no, is it possible to have an unofficial and even temporary tier (like Clear Skies) where we can finally get to see how a metagame without SR would look like?
Is this suspect test happening?
If the answer is no, is it possible to have an unofficial and even temporary tier (like Clear Skies) where we can finally get to see how a metagame without SR would look like?
I think you're confusing "good" with "broken." Just because something is so good that you feel obligated to use it doesn't mean that it is broken. This is especially true given that it isn't even a Pokémon, of which you can only have six, but rather a Pokémon move, which you have twenty-four slots to use for whatever you want. Is it an extremely useful move that can be considered ubiquitous? Of course, but that doesn't mean that Stealth Rock itself is inherently broken. It means that it is the best move in the game, and it is useful for getting certain KOs and preventing your opponent from switching all battle without some sort of risk involved. The second part of your comment also gets me. You're saying that it would be unwise to build a team without Stealth Rock, yet you want to ban it? What this implies is that you think that the resulting metagame would have several threats that would be considered impossible to overcome. Why is Stealth Rock necessary in your opinion? Is it because of Dragonite, Volcarona, Thundurus-T, Salamence, Tornadus, Cloyster, Kyurem-B, and other Stealth-Rock-weak Pokémon that would become extremely difficult to deal with without Stealth Rock taking a chunk of their HP every time they switch in? Is it because Stealth Rock helps to deal with Focus Sash, which, in a hazard-less metagame would make every Pokémon almost identical to Alakazam (short of weather and status damage)? If having Stealth Rock is as necessary as you say, then why would you try to get rid of it now? I understand that perhaps I'm putting words in your mouth, so I encourage you to explain what you would gain from banning Stealth Rock if you yourself would never run a team without it. Even if your response is "we don't keep broken things to check other broken things" (which I personally believe is bogus), you still run into the problem of 1. proving how Stealth Rock crosses the line between "really good" and "broken" and 2. explaining how we are supposed to deal with the multitude of things that would be considered "broken" without Stealth Rock.
TL;DR: You can't simultaneously claim that running a team without Stealth Rock would be absurd and that certain threats would be easily dealt with even without Stealth Rock. And if the latter is false, then you have to explain how to fix the new metagame in a timely fashion, or why it would be worth losing all those Pokémon to Ubers in the first place just so Yanmega and Moltres would ebcome slightly more viable in OU (Moltres actually already has a small niche in OU).
You cannot compare a 'dragon sponge' or 'special wall' or 'spinblocker' or what have you with stealth rock, because they can be multiple things. You can have many pokemon fulfilling the 'dragon sponge' role, but you only have stealth rock fulfilling the stealth rock role if that makes any sense. Stealth rock is stealth rock. You cannot compare it with anything, not even spikes or t-spikes.
There is nothing actually ubiquitous except for stealth rock and keeping this move in the game is an offense to competitive battling.
EDIT:
The only reason I'm saying that you cannot build a team without stealth rock is because the other player does have stealth rock. In stealth rock vs. no stealth rock, stealth rock simply wins an absolutely overwhelming amount more. Therefor you absolutely need to have stealth rock, simply because the enemy team also has stealth rock. It doesn't have anything to do with trying to net a 2HKO that would otherwise be a 3HKO or keeping mons in check, it is simply because the other team will have stealth rock.
If we ban stealth rock then neither team can use it.
I definitely think SR deserves testing.
Stealth rocks is FAR MORE ubiquitous to Scizor, Toed or whatever "pokemon" you care to choose. Find me one team in the top 100 which operates without it. Definitely not something Scizor and party can claim. They don't even hold a finger to theubiquity necessity of using rocks in the OU environment. Because without it you're just giving yourself a stupid handicap.
And sorry if I'm misguided but "Not banning X because it breaks Y and Z" has always been shunned as an argument. if Y and Z are found broken after banning X , we fucking ban Y and Z also. IIRC that has been smogon's policy on suspect testing since the revamped process was introduced.
BUT on the other hand, in the off chance that rocks are found broken and banned, the metagame will shift will be too immense to manage. This is because of the fact that every competitive team uses it. Suddenly dragon spam with Muliscale DNite/Kyu-B/Lati@s will become a viable strategy, Sun spam will get a huge boost, volcarona and party will suddenly become more viable, hell I can think of tons of stuff.
We simply do NOT have the time to see how the metagame develops after such a tectonic shift and decide on future suspects unless we are willing to carry this on for another year or 2. An amount of time we simply do not have right now.
TL;DR - My opinion is that we just let this generation be as it is. I have given up hope of it ever becoming as versatile or creative, and let us focus on making Gen 6 a better place.
Stealth rocks is FAR MORE ubiquitous to Scizor, Toed or whatever "pokemon" you care to choose. Find me one team in the top 100 which operates without it. Definitely not something Scizor and party can claim. They don't even hold a finger to the
And sorry if I'm misguided but "Not banning X because it breaks Y and Z" has always been shunned as an argument. if Y and Z are found broken after banning X , we fucking ban Y and Z also. IIRC that has been smogon's policy on suspect testing since the revamped process was introduced.
BUT on the other hand, in the off chance that rocks are found broken and banned, the metagame will shift will be too immense to manage. This is because of the fact that every competitive team uses it. Suddenly dragon spam with Muliscale DNite/Kyu-B/Lati@s will become a viable strategy, Sun spam will get a huge boost, volcarona and party will suddenly become more viable, hell I can think of tons of stuff.
We simply do NOT have the time to see how the metagame develops after such a tectonic shift and decide on future suspects unless we are willing to carry this on for another year or 2. An amount of time we simply do not have right now.
TL;DR - My opinion is that we just let this generation be as it is. I have given up hope of it ever becoming as versatile or creative, and let us focus on making Gen 6 a better place.
It irks me when specific Pokemon are brought up in this kind of debate. I constantly see mentions that Stealth Rock turns Yanmega, Moltres, etc into a liabilities in OU and that SR should be banned because it makes a significant amount of Pokemon unviable. I don't disagree with the assertion that SR makes Pokemon unviable, but... so what. There are 600+ Pokemon in this game, and a good deal of them are affected by various things exist in our metagame. SR just happens to be one of the most obvious examples, but isn't unique in that regard. If you hate how the game is played because of SRs effect on the metagame, then you should probably play a different game. I'm dead serious, we shouldn't bend over backwards to accommodate people think like that.
To quote a friend, "some Pokemon are good, some are bad, and this is an effect that the metagame is always subject to". We shouldn't concern ourselves with trying to actively make niche Pokemon better by tweaking our ruleset, that's just dumb.
So yes, a SR suspect test is a complete waste of time. It's tantamount pandering to our userbase, and it shouldn't be done. Ever.
To quote a friend, "some Pokemon are good, some are bad, and this is an effect that the metagame is always subject to". We shouldn't concern ourselves with trying to actively make niche Pokemon better by tweaking our ruleset, that's just dumb.
So yes, a SR suspect test is a complete waste of time. It's tantamount pandering to our userbase, and it shouldn't be done. Ever.
Well, I'm no expert, but I would define broken in terms of risk and reward. Most mons can be classified as either high risk high reward or low risk and subsequently low reward. Furthering this analogy, mons that are deemed broken are HIGH reward with LOW risk. For instance, Shaymin-S was unanimously voted broken BECAUSE it had very high rewards and with that amazing speed had very low risk.
Sticking to this definition of risk and reward, I believe SR merits a suspect test because the risk is very low and the reward is VERY high.
To see why SR is broken, one must analyze why exactly the risk is so low(it's fairly obvious why the reward is high, Volcarona and co).
The risk for SR is low because:
a) Distribution: SR's WIDELY distributed to a range of mons that can take advantage of it. For instance Blissey(which is rarely OHKOed and gets free switches on special attackers not named Keldeo) can set up SR easily. Terrakion(one of the most dangerous mons in OU imo) is very fast and can easily set up SR before sweeping.
Sturdy Skarmory also gets SR, meaning it can guaranteed set up SR and a layer of spikes
b) Lack of ways to get rid of it: Rapid Spin is one of the few ways to get rid of it. However, Rapid Spin guarantees the opponent a free turn of set up, which can be devastating in the case of mons like Dragonite and Breloom to name a few
c) No limit on the number of times it can be set: There's no rule saying you can only set SR once and if it's spinned away it's gone. A player can set SR as many times as they want, meaning you can get rid of the spinner and set up SR again.
In my opinion, banning SR is not the solution. We have to find a way to make SR higher risk. One way to do this is to ban it in all ways save leveling up: this would force players to utilise mons like Steelix if they want SR that desperately, equalizing the risk-reward ratio.
If I may, I'd like to throw my hat onto the table. I haven't played the game in a little while but I feel I should at least deserve a chance to be heard.
Stealth Rock has been interegrated into the metagame sense it's arrival in gen 4. How could it not be too. That 12-25-50% chink in a Pokémon's health turns 3hkos into 2hkos and 2hkos into ohkos. It's such a useful tool that practically everyone and their grandma has to use this move. It's a standard in most teams these days. It also keeps arguably keeps some pokemon in check. Dragonite, Volcarona, Kyurem-B are just a few examples that are kept from being SS Meta Knight Ranked threats in the metagame. It's also forced pokemon out of higher tiers. Yanmega, Moltres, most Ice Types (though this can also be attributed to the type itself being kind of terribad.) are kept in the lower tiers because of this move. You can argue that Stealth Rock's broken, You can argue that it's not broken. You cannot argue however, that this single move has DEFINED BOTH OF THE GENS IT'S IN! Gen 4 would not be gen 4 if stealth rock weren't there. Gen 5 would be hugely different without Stealth Rock. GEN 5! The generation that most people would say is defined by the perma-weather. I don't agree with that statement. Weather is a huge portion of the metagame but even weather teams have to have stealth rock in them.
Is this unhealthy? Doesn't it seem like Stealth rock is to intergrated into the metagame? It's certainly powerful enough to be on a majority or even supermajority of teams. How much would the metagame change if Stealth Rock weren't there? Nobody can answer this question because sense it's arrival in gen 4, it's been the proverbial and literal elephant in the room. The Physical/Special Split of Gen 4. Weather in Gen 5. They're both huge parts of their respective metagame but they bow before the colossal beast that is stealth rock. With one Simple test, even if it's not broken, we'd know.
Stealth Rock is truly essential in the metagame because it is the metagame. If we don't have stealth rock we're playing something different. What is that? I don't know. But I'd like to find out. I'm not sure if Stealth Rock is broken if not. However, I certainly believe that it's so big, it's unhealthy. Test it out at the very least.
Stealth Rock has been interegrated into the metagame sense it's arrival in gen 4. How could it not be too. That 12-25-50% chink in a Pokémon's health turns 3hkos into 2hkos and 2hkos into ohkos. It's such a useful tool that practically everyone and their grandma has to use this move. It's a standard in most teams these days. It also keeps arguably keeps some pokemon in check. Dragonite, Volcarona, Kyurem-B are just a few examples that are kept from being SS Meta Knight Ranked threats in the metagame. It's also forced pokemon out of higher tiers. Yanmega, Moltres, most Ice Types (though this can also be attributed to the type itself being kind of terribad.) are kept in the lower tiers because of this move. You can argue that Stealth Rock's broken, You can argue that it's not broken. You cannot argue however, that this single move has DEFINED BOTH OF THE GENS IT'S IN! Gen 4 would not be gen 4 if stealth rock weren't there. Gen 5 would be hugely different without Stealth Rock. GEN 5! The generation that most people would say is defined by the perma-weather. I don't agree with that statement. Weather is a huge portion of the metagame but even weather teams have to have stealth rock in them.
Is this unhealthy? Doesn't it seem like Stealth rock is to intergrated into the metagame? It's certainly powerful enough to be on a majority or even supermajority of teams. How much would the metagame change if Stealth Rock weren't there? Nobody can answer this question because sense it's arrival in gen 4, it's been the proverbial and literal elephant in the room. The Physical/Special Split of Gen 4. Weather in Gen 5. They're both huge parts of their respective metagame but they bow before the colossal beast that is stealth rock. With one Simple test, even if it's not broken, we'd know.
Stealth Rock is truly essential in the metagame because it is the metagame. If we don't have stealth rock we're playing something different. What is that? I don't know. But I'd like to find out. I'm not sure if Stealth Rock is broken if not. However, I certainly believe that it's so big, it's unhealthy. Test it out at the very least.
- Status