What is the purpose of this place?

[Big Bayou]

It's gotten to the point where I just log onto the board and see a sea of "Pokemon Discussion" threads that all carry on the same type of insignificant conversation and never really go anywhere, and a huge pile of hasty RMTs inspired by page after page of number crunching and theorycraft. (And of course, there are exceptions to everything.) With multiple stickies and anouncements in the vein of "It's time to increase post quality" and "Pokémon Taboo — the untouchable topics", along with the same monotonous RMTs and Pokemon Discussions, it seems that people are just getting bored waiting for D/P to come out and are randomly posting here to pass the time.

It's not like the people posting here are the only people who battle "competitively" online. Like some people have been repeatedly preaching, it's stupid to overly discuss a nonexistant metagame, especially when competitor comes. Much of the calculations and careful systems of counters that have been meticulously constructed here for the past few months will be thrown out the window when players from around the world bring their own refined strategies to the table, so really, why are people slaving over these things so...enthusiastically?

So I guess what I'm really asking everybody here is...What are we really accomplishing that couldn't be done in a single, D/P research thread? What is the purpose of the "Uncharted Territory" forum?

 

[Seph]

Wow, that's quite a question there. A mod could probably give you a better answer than lil ol me, but I'm going to reply anyway. Thousands of players own the game (including myself) and wifi battle. The better players however, are in the fewer numbers. Jibaku, me, and a few others are the only "good" battlers playing the game atm. We give players a sneak peak at the metagame and it's very interesting, I'm sorry if you dont think so.

What is the point? Well, why not discuss it? I'm sorry if people are excited for the next gen that's coming in 4 days, but if we want to discuss it and talk about new strategy's we're going to try, etc, I don't see why you're opposed. With no discussion, we would just be starting now, leaving us ages behind where we are now. Many of the movesets discussed here have been used by several battlers (mostly gamefaqs noobs who like to copy the movesets) and have been joined into the "metagame." I have fought CG mence 5 of my last 5 battles. That's just rediculous. Had jump (or whoever made it) not discussed it, such a thing would not have been tested. If you are excited for a new generation which doesn't happen very often, you shouldn't just sit there, do nothing and pretend it will get here when it gets here and then we'll start.

Also, having people test things for you guys can also save you hours of breeding for something that turned out to be a failure. If not for the pursuit, people would not be breeding for it on heracross, etc, making you guys have to rebreed. Mainly, talking about this is very entertaining. Yes, the people here are passing the time, but as long as it's productive, I don't object to it at all. The same question you have asked could be asked about anything. A simple conversation is considered "pointless" by what you have just said.

 

[x099x]

These pokemon discussions are not in vain.. in fact, they've shaped a great amount of movesets that will probably be considered standard once there is a metagame. Choice Specs Salamence, CBtar, CB Heracross, CB Weavile, all of the Infernape variants, and Garchomp's moveset are only a few examples.

If it wasn't for these discussion threads, most of us, excluding some like Amazing Ampharos, Jumpman, or Mcgraw, would be left in the dark when it came to creating our teams and giving our pokes the most beneficial movesets.

 

[AndrewRogue]

To put it generally, the point of this forum is speculation. Hence all the "So-and-so" discussions, chatting about moves, research and the like. What else are you going to do at a forum for something that is only out in limited areas anyway?

And really, I think its a bit silly to claim that talking about a non-existant metagame is pointless. The fact is that pokemon is a game of numbers, and we have most of them available to us. And as someone who has hung around CCGs and fighting games for a long time (two styles of games that have similar metagame development), it is entirely possible to feel out a metagame surprisingly well because there is an objective measurement. Yes, surprises occasionally show up once people start participating and we discover some stuff we may not have known, but the general sense of what is good, what is bad and what will work is entirely possible to ascertain through theorycraft.

And really, what is any forum for besides conversation, speculation and discussion?

Edit: I'm also rather curious about what all this hostility is about. I know Smogon is a more intelligent community with higher standards than most, but there is some rather unnecessary harshness directed towards people who feel like speculating. People are excited, people like to talk and there are legitimate numbers and the like that can be discussed. I can understand some irritation at some of the topics, and some irritation towards the RMTs (although I do feel things are a bit unnecessarily harsh here, its not my forum and its not my call), the fact is that its pretty clear the major point of this forum is for speculation and theorycraft (and use of the info from the Japanese game and info from the folks who are playing it) until Sunday. If this isn't your thing, I... think its kinda silly to be here complaining about it.

 

[Big Bayou]

Oh, it is extremely useful to discuss the future metagame and all of the twists and turns it will bring, but I was moreso commenting on the more recent change. Everyone has been having good discussions about D/P tactics and movesets and etc. for months now, but lately it just seems that everything is getting stale; people just don't seem to have anything to talk about. All of the threads and RMTs are starting to sound the same. And like I said before, it's not like we are the only online battlers, the only ones who have been making up movesets and strategies. Brazil is a big country, you know. rimshot*

And I'm not sure how profound some of these new, future-standard movesets are.

Choice Specs Salamence, CBtar, CB Heracross, CB Weavile, all of the Infernape variants, and Garchomp's moveset are only a few examples.

4/6 of the movesets you mentioned, for example, are CB/CS ones, requiring little EVing and generally 4 strong moves with good coverage. Anyone who really knows what they're doing could piece those together. I hate sounding so negative...but in my opinion there are only a few new, truly innovative movesets that have been thought up that will drastically affect the metagame, and while CB pokemon sets are important, you don't need a forum to figure them out.

(Oh, and just a footnote, it's not like sticking special choiceband on a dude with intimidate, 100 base speed and a 140 Bp + Stab dragon type move, amongst other things, took a long time to figure out.)

 

[x099x]

Ah, I see. That, I cannot answer. You may want to consult a mod.

And no, it's not rocket science, but there's more to a moveset than just one move. I personally never would have guessed to put Dragon Pulse on the same moveset as Draco Meteor. Of course, I understand now why it's there, I never would have known without the Salamence discussion topics.

 

[Carl]

So I guess what I'm really asking everybody here is...What are we really accomplishing that couldn't be done in a single, D/P research thread? What is the purpose of the "Uncharted Territory" forum?

When you have this many posts discussing possiblities for movesets, teams, etc you have to keep it somewhat organized, correct? People are going to post this stuff anyway might as well categorize it in its own forum where it will get the attention it deserves. It's like asking what's the purpose of the Advance forum or the Netbattle help forum. People posting in Firebot are much less likely to give these kind of posts the same attention. One thread are you nuts? This part of the forum gets flooded with posts every day and you said so yourself. There's no way anyone could keep up or sift through a single thread to even hold a decent discussion.

Next week the games get released in America. In a short time after that you will see a huge explosion of wifi play and people attempting to plan out teams even more so than now. I don't see how you can question this forum's existence NOW with the release date looming on the horizon. That fact alone is enough to justify IMO. Maybe four months ago you would have had a better argument but we're definitely going to need this place in the next week or two.

All that aside, there are people such as myself that actually find the strategy aspect of the games the most fun. Just discussing potential movesets and teams is enjoyable to some of us. "Theorymon" as Articuno64 and I tend to call it is usually the most challenging and rewarding part of competitive battling because it actually can require some thinking. In a few months some of these strategies and ideas might be unsuccessful but who cares? We had fun coming up with them and it just leaves more room to come up with newer better strategies that work in the future. And hey, it's nice to have all these posts as a record to show how the metagame progresses.

EDIT: And people don't have a whole lot to talk about anymore because we've covered a lot of the basics. Trust me early Advance was like that too until we actually got to competitively battle. Then things started moving again with the counter pokemon and anti-counter pokemon and so on.

 

[Blizzard1]

Just adding a noob comment on this: The RMT threads (and LAMT I guess, whatever that stood for) were broken off into a sub-forum, which seems like a great idea to me. Why not break the discussion threads off as well? There are already a ton of them, and there's an index to them all.

Of course, I'm not sure how much would remain in this forum with RMT and single Pokemon discussion threads gone. Perhaps that is the original poster's question here.

 

[Pneuma]

"Theorymon" as Articuno64 and I tend to call it is usually the most challenging and rewarding part of competitive battling because it actually can require some thinking.

I like the ring.

The first thing that comes to mind is all the research that has been done to satiate the curious minds of smogon. Sandstorm, CB Pursuit, Damage Formula, the new Breeding stuff, Type-increase items, Punish, so much...

The second is easily the quality and ingenuity of some of the "theorymon" movesets. And not just Jumpman either (though he is made of gold most of the time), it seems to me like everyone has posted at least one intelligent thing in the last few months that I would like to try on a team.

The RMT crush that started up has been pretty bad and it will only get worse, look at ADV. I guess this is the way of all things, I'm too young a smogoner to know the history of previous Pokemon releases.
The ideas will also thin out as more and more people try out (and give names to, ugh) all the different movesets. Doesn't mean that there won't be the occasional new one.


And besides, like Carl said, D/P release is coming up this damn week. Give it at least a few months to go stale before taking the piss out of it. ;_;

 

[Big Bayou]

It always seemed odd how some people, back when everyone knew very little about D/P, kept building up these ludicrous discussions about Rampardos or Garchomp which rose and fell as fast as we learned more about the different nuances that were involved with the new generation. Stuff like that went on for months, and in retrospect, I see how there was so much time put into those empty discussions that today mean almost nothing.

But I really do respect your point about "Theorymon", Carl. I guess that most of my problems with the "Uncharted Territories" forum really kind of stem from a difference in preference. I like to plan out my teams and strategies through actual battle experiences, other enjoy sketching scenarios out and planning things out in advance for the hell of it. To each their own, and since the majority of people seem to like the preemptive strategizing element of Pokemon and use this board to facilitate that strategizing, I really don't have much of a case to question that.

And with that I think that I'll say my question has been answered and all of you have enlightened me a bit. Thanks, mates. This thread has really gone as far as it's really going to go (and was really more of a personal question, just look at how many times I've posted), methinks, soo....locky incoming?

EDIT: Oh and believe me, I didn't want to steal any piss from the new games; I'm as excited as everyone else. Just was wondering about the forum is all. Gnight

 

[Pneuma]

Locks are so excessive. Back in the day we used to just leave the topic alone for a good year or two before some troll bumped it.

 

[Jumpman16]

It's gotten to the point where I just log onto the board and see a sea of "Pokemon Discussion" threads that all carry on the same type of insignificant conversation and never really go anywhere, and a huge pile of hasty RMTs inspired by page after page of number crunching and theorycraft. (And of course, there are exceptions to everything.) With multiple stickies and anouncements in the vein of "It's time to increase post quality" and "Pokémon Taboo — the untouchable topics", along with the same monotonous RMTs and Pokemon Discussions, it seems that people are just getting bored waiting for D/P to come out and are randomly posting here to pass the time.

Granted, the fact that Justin, Surgo and I have had to make such announcements and topics is indication enough that you have a point. However, as a few posters before me have stated, these "insignificant conversation" and "hasty RMT" sentiments have only arisen over the past month or so. This is partly because, as Carl has stated, we have come to the point where we've talked about pretty much every pokemon in depth by now, but also partly because it's natural to get "teams" wrong when first trying to post an RMT, whether or not one has battled competitively.

And I'm not sure how profound some of these new, future-standard movesets are. 4/6 of the movesets you mentioned, for example, are CB/CS ones, requiring little EVing and generally 4 strong moves with good coverage. Anyone who really knows what they're doing could piece those together. I hate sounding so negative...but in my opinion there are only a few new, truly innovative movesets that have been thought up that will drastically affect the metagame, and while CB pokemon sets are important, you don't need a forum to figure them out.

(Oh, and just a footnote, it's not like sticking special choiceband on a dude with intimidate, 100 base speed and a 140 Bp + Stab dragon type move, amongst other things, took a long time to figure out.)

Maybe not everyone is as smart as you, Big Bayou. Which, by no concidence, is the whole reason Smogon was founded in the first place. We are the leader in competitive pokémon battling, but it's both naïve and arrogantly presumptuous to assume that everyone is as good as thinking up proper strategies, solid movesets and cohesive teams as some of Smogon's lead contributors are.

I'm not even going to take the SpecsMence bait here — the fact the people are still posting sets that deviate from my proposal really isn't the point, as it in fact shows that Salamence has a lot of options that people are excited to both post about and eventually use, whether or not I, the mighty Jumpman16, turn out to be "right".

It always seemed odd how some people, back when everyone knew very little about D/P, kept building up these ludicrous discussions about Rampardos or Garchomp which rose and fell as fast as we learned more about the different nuances that were involved with the new generation. Stuff like that went on for months, and in retrospect, I see how there was so much time put into those empty discussions that today mean almost nothing.

Do you think any major bill, or mandate, or decision is reached without months, if not years, of careful mulling over by the respective and numerous peers? To wax Ketchum: do you really think that pokemon are only tools for battle? Do you think there was no point in having discussed Garchomp and its counters, and Azelf and its counters, and Gyarados and its counters, etc?

And, most importantly, do you really think, assuming you're not against the notion of forums in general, that "we" would figure this out any faster or easier should we have decided to hold our collective tongue until April 22 or whenever Competitor is released, when we would actually be privy to competitive battle?

 

[Elminster12]

I can speak for myself that it is always interesting to read topics, as I am inexperienced and lacking in knowledge, and all of this discussion has helped me, among other things, better understand the meaning of "countering" something and trying to make it so my team has some sort of answer no matter the situation. I would hate for none of this to go down because I feel like I've learned from reading and even commenting on some of these discussions. It's also good in general to "preview" these pokemon, as people are often caught up on the "standards" and sometimes don't realize the merits of some "lower-level" pokemon who can really cause some damage.