i'm going to once again propose the idea of making some sort of "gods among us" tournament series with one uber unbanned for each tour. i don't believe any ubers should drop currently or in the future of sv (except for terapagos and regieleki in the event of a tera ban), but it would provide valuable insight into why ubers should generally stay ubers, which many people on this forum apparently don't seem to grasp. there would be shortcomings, obviously, because things would be overprepared for, but at minimum we'd have some actual concrete data to point to and say "look how much prep they had to do". it might also be fun, who knows. would anyone else be interested in this?
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Metagame Views From The Council
- Thread starter njnp
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Why the hell not? I'd casually participate in that, it sounds like a blast! That's it's educational is a secondary bonus to me, since I never got to play with Paladin at all, and would love first hand OU experience why it should be banned
Wasn't there something like that with darkrai with OUPL or some other tournament? I do like the idea, but my main concern is that people will take it as gospel and say "oh, x got a 50ish% win rate, it isn't broken", when in fact that's because 100% of people brought it, like how GSC snorlax has 50% winrate because 100% of teams use it. Or even "oh, they handled it easy with common mons so it isn't broken", but they don't realise that they were forced to use them to not get steamrolled by the uber.
I really, really want the idea to work but I feel people will take it the wrong way and we get an overpowered uber in the tier. It worked for darkrai because it is a mon whose main mechanic was neutered and then banned, compared to other ubers who have broken mechanics built into them or have 680bst. Like I know Zamazenta has 660bst, but it is still a top mon and the extra 20 could break the Uber mons.
i'll admit that the idea does risk opening the door for those kinds of arguments, but it also provides an actual space to talk about them so the discussion doesn't pollute this thread, the meta discussion thread, and other areas of the forums. anyone bringing it up outside of the "gods among us" thread could be redirected over there instead, so we can actually leave the meta discussion thread for discussion of the meta while still satiating people's desire to talk about ubers dropping. as for it actually leading to ubers dropping, that's highly unlikely, the council knows better than that. it's really just to get rid of the arguments and to provide a bit of novelty, i don't want it to factor into tiering decisions
If that's the case, then I'm all for it. I was only concerned about 'those' arguements becoming reality, so if that won't happen then go for it.
honestly i'd have started it up myself a while ago but i don't know the first thing about running a tournament or making an ou thread, or if there's some sort of approval process for that or anything. i think it'd be nice to make an actual contribution to the community instead of just ratioing people with "pokemon at computer" memes
One thing people completely overlook about lugia is its ability to pressure stall. Sure, multiscale + boots looks nice on paper but lugia hits like a paper towel, cm sets are easily exploitable without stored power to help alleviate said power and its utility moves contain trick, whirlwind and dragon tail. That's all.
However, fat pokemon in past have been able to exploit their massive bulk and pressure to stall out potential counters and checks. Suicune was the original scumbag pp stall pokemon with scald/cm + two moves that help waste pp, like rest-talk or sub-protect. Last gen and very recently in this gen, kyurem also leveraged its bulk to pp stall with pressure, using dd + Icicle spear to both win pp wars and end up with a fast sub to avoid risking taking a hit. Lugia could easily do this due to its physical bulk being superior to garg and special bulk being higher than common, naturally bulky av pokemon like hoopa-u and primarina. Its also naturally much faster than the other 2 pp stall guys which lets it get the jump on wake, enam and volc with investment, which can be huge. With 4 of roost/sub/protect/cm/coverage, it becomes incredibly nasty and will slow down the metagame to a very unfavorable spot. The only real drawback is that it lacks an actual spammable attack, which will make the slowness worse. Scald is spammable for obvious reasons and Icicle spear is decent due to its high pp, attack boosts and stab but lugia lacks a reliable attack. Aeroblast had 8pp, air slash is unreliable, tbolt, ep, psymoves and dpulse are easily exploitable, leaving 4 non-stab options if you're going to run 1 attack. Ice beam, whose pp will be an issue with how weak it will be, shadow ball, which hits like paper, surf, which is largely worse than ice beam minus the pp advantage, and chilling water which does negative damage but the attack drop will make the opponent throw their computer out.
I do think bans take priority over unbans, but I think chein-pao, like TPP said, bax, solagleo, giratina (just one), or Zama-C are the best options.
Cheems and bax do the same thing, both fit on HO but ultimately work better as a tool to curb it on balance builds.
Imo, this is what we need. Making teams fatter and more resilient helps make the games less volatile and reduces the 1 wrong turn leads me to getting sweeped issue that's being seen with the myriad of HO builds. Obviously, HO is built around capitalizing on these turns but, with how diverse it is now, it's hard to build bulkier teams while trying to account for all of these variants of HO. Cheems has ice shard, sucker and a huge speed tier to curb these threats and isn't as easily exploitable as our options. Bax is fatter, which helps vs a defensive or offensive tera, similarly strong with ice shard and is slightly more exploitable due to its speed tier which should help HO maintain better viability if one of these dropped. Due to the inherent nature of both of these mons, the meta should shift towards fatter balance structures or BO since both are very strong vs both HO and stall adjacent structures.
Solgaleo is obviously a very large statstick, but it's typing is awkward, with the big 3 grounds, gambit, the dragons minus wake and kyurem, volc, darkrai, ghold, pult and knock spam hitting it super effectively. However, it's natural bulk should allow you to customize it to take the hits you need, it's got morning sun, teleport and knock + toxic immunity to do gen 8 clef larp, choice sets do well due to its natural bulk, colorful movepool, rocks resist and good attack while still being exploitable (similar to band zama), and it can run cm or futureport sets on the special side. It overall should help move the needle towards a more balance centric metagame due to it quite literally doing it all but is more exploitable by HO than the ice-types and is worse vs fat than those 2.
The Giratinas would probably be at the bottom of my list of potentially droppable ubers but I think that if lugia is theoretically fine, so should these guys. Gira-A is weaker (100/100 is very mediocre) but packs 150/120/120 bulk with item flexibility which is scary. This adds a good defogger into the mix (it'll be up to 2!), a bulkier alternative to boots pult, and can run bulky phasing sets similar ting-lu. However, with pressure, better typing and similar bulk to lugia, it pulls off the same pressure stall bullshit lugia can do but with the spammablity of suicune thanks to shadow ball being much more dangerous on it than lugia and two attack sets having a much better way of dealing with gambit in aura sphere. The only advantage lugia has over it is roost but, resttalk is plenty when it's fatter than dozo and sub-tect racks up quick when the sub isn't broken easily. Gira-O might be more manageable with its lower bulk and strong sneak acting as a decent revenge killing tool but imo it may benefit HO more than anything. Balloon gold on HO is replaced with this guy since it's bulkier, has Levitate, is faster and hits harder before boosts thanks to its orb. Obviously, all the utility and support options Gira-A does can be done by this guy, with the benefit of completely shutting tusk down but both forms feel the most broken.
Zama-C does what 4A or IDPress Zama-H does but with far superior bulk, toxic immunity, and dragon resistance for a ground, fire and fighting weakness, worse speed and no boots or lefties to help bolster longevity. It's a side grade at best and helps curb HO somewhat but I think it's typing lends itself a better match-up vs BO or trailer balance builds over the HO match-up which tends to have volc + low kick gambit and obviously zama is horrible into fat so not changes there.
The people making the decisions to suspect/unban something in this case have a fairly good track record when it comes to gauging the brokenness of something based on tour replays I think, although there are always cases like Hypnosis Darkrai or Arch rain that don't immediately present themselves but they can also be rebanned quite quickly. Aside from unbanning Magearna and Pao there's generally been a good rationale for all tiering action this gen so I trust that the council + other high level players that post here would be able to tell whether x uber is broken/overcentralizing/uncompetitive or not using tour games. So I'm in favor of it.
I don't quite understand why people seem to always call zam-c a sidegrade to Zam-h just cause no Lefties, despite its brief home appearance with pao showing that if anything, it's the better Zam form. 140 double bulk paired with a still excellent speed tier is massive, as well as a natural tox immunity. The steel typing rendering it dual resistant to both gambit stabs, neutral to moon's Acro instead of decimated by it, neutral to fsight, neutral to mblasts, immune to whatever tf glowking even tries to do to it, as well as a dragon resistance, steel resistance, quad rock resistance and etc... is SO much worth more then the ground, fire and fighting weaknesses, especially when you obliterate every single damn Mon with that typing safe from like, volcarona thanks to your ID press, also WITH NATURAL steel stab in behemoth bash, which DOESN'T get fucked over by fairy bolt due to it being
a fatass (40 bp heavy slam on bolt vs 100 constant). You also still are a excellent knock absorber for your entire team, and can literally abuse rest + Id + bpress + slam with tera water and still do stupid numbers. And no, gouging fire is not beating Zam If the dog just clicks twater ID on you. You will lose. Give it up.
Crowned forms are meant to be eternatus killers, and I'd be damned if the hero forms actually we're better then crowneds
Archaludon is banned following its suspect test: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...s-round-10-voting.3736818/page-6#post-9984934
I know I'll get hate for this, bur I'd like to see some experimentation with magearna as a potential drop. It would require some tiering around stored power but it's something that could potentially benefit every style. Magearna Is a major threat anyway but it also provides defensive benefit.
Won,t happen. I personally believe its less broken than it was in SS, but its definetely another big threat of which we have too many already.
Yeah but I'm hoping with the amount of threats it's defensive benefits outweighs it's offensive. I'm still upset they removed change heart from movepools as that was a pretty big factor of it remaining somewhat balanced. I think its still worth considering as it can become a centralizing threat, but I understand if it's completely off the table as an option.
Do you mean Heart Swap
People have been complaining about the hazard situation and you want to drop another Spiker into the tier?
Even outside of Stored Power, Magearna has too many tools and too much power on top of its good typing.
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Hello everyone, I got my start with competitive pokemon when SV came out. Though I consider myself a relatively "casual competitive" player, starting with SV I care a lot about this tier and has seen it progress over the past year. I don't make posts often or as much as I used to mostly due to my on/off activity with the tier and IRL priorities, but recently I've had the chance to play more getting Archaludon suspect reqs and playing a bit on high ladder as well. Because of my inactivity and above average but still meh playing ability, I don't post often nor do I consider what I have to say something other people should seriously consider or take in mind.
That being said, I wanted to make this post to ensure that the metagame at the very least has a good direction in the future whether I'm apart of that future or not, I believe it's important to ensure that when it's all said and done and gen 10 comes out, SV has its place as an enjoyable, old gen, if not for all but for some. As such, I believe it's important that with such a volatile metagame, we consistently suspect and are open-minded to suspects such as Tera Blast (which this post is mostly about), and mons suspected in the past if we find them becoming overwhelming when/if the metagame settles (Kingambit, Gliscor, Kyurem).
I don't think that an Uber drop is necessary yet as some have suggested. TPP is absolutely right however, introducing a necessary evil back into the tier such as Chien-Pao to keep some offence in check (eg. Roaring Moon) while also threatening balance is something we should look at down the line if the tier is still incredibly unbalanced. That said, the tier is polarizing as is. Archaludon being suspected and banned is a major step in the right direction, but considering how chaotic and difficult it is in the builder in SV currently, I think we should focus on creating a balanced metagame without worrying about Ubers or what was banned in the past.
As such, I believe it's important we constantly suspect. I'm all for letting the metagame settle for a week after a ban, and perhaps let a week of SPL past. But past that and a tiering survey, I don't think we should be waiting at all to suspect. I also think in SV we've seen an anti-ban approach from a lot of good players spreading, and I think this is due to the immense power creep and tera, the idea of broken becomes really blurry. Dragon Dance Tera Flying Tyranitar is a real set that has been used on a team that was brought to SPL. It can take advantage of multiple major threats with TTars solid natural bulk and Tera Blast Flying luring in Great Tusk and Zamazenta. The point in saying this is that this set can beat multiple mons we've invited the idea of suspecting, which I think can wrongfully lead us down the road of thinking certain mons aren't broken. I think, even regardless, an anti-ban approach right now is wrong despite it mostly being in good faith I believe. There are people who take large issue with the metagame in its current state, including myself, and other players way better than me. I think this should be alarming to people and why we should consistently suspect, and continue to spark discussion on the best way to proceed with this complicated tier.
Tiering on Tera hasn't been ruled out but many council members including Finch and njnp have both addressed it as more or less, an afterthought right now, at least the mechanic itself. I however think that Tera Blast is the single most pressing issue in the tier right now. The three mons I've heard most as suspect canidates right now are Volcarona, Roaring Moon, and Gouging Fire. I personally believe out of these mons, the order in which I find them most to be an issue are in the order I listed them. But I do not support a suspect on Volcarona like I do on Roaring Moon and Gouging Fire, I believe banning Volcarona, or any mon that can viably abuse Tera Blast over just banning Tera Blast would be a severe tiering mistake.
Iron Valiant is just a mon I feel like at this point, we've accepted as a part of the tier, only being on the radar once in early SV. But in my opinion, it's one of the single most oppressive offensive threats in the metagame and guessing the set is just a nightmare. A 4x resist to Kingambit sucker punch helps it to become one of the better offensive answers to Kingambit despite not switching in, and as such it's extremely difficult to fit answers for Iron Valiant. Guessing the set of Iron Valiant also becomes tough because your switch-ins change drastically. An SD Knock Off CC set cannot switch in Gholdengo or Glowking, whereas otherwise it is oftentimes one of your best switch ins. Fairy Fighting is also a great stab combination on my favourite set of Valiants, Moonblast CC Knock Off Taunt/Encore. I'm not suggesting to suspect Iron Valiant (though a year down the line, when the meta settles and it's still oppressive, I say go for it). I find Volcarona to be by far the most consistent answer to Iron Valiant on offensive teams, as currently offensive teams can't really run a Poison, and the Steel tends to be Kingambit which is still weak to Valiant. You're left with Gholdengo and Volcarona as solid checks to Iron Valiant when in the builder not accounting for tera. Priority (not sucker punch) is another solid answer to Iron Valiant and can usually force a tera or a KO, but in terms of actual switch-ins for offence it becomes difficult. Volcarona provides inherit value to the builder when we consider its defensive presence and the amount it can check.
I do believe Volcarona would be a great mon without Tera Blast, but not nearly as oppressive. Toxapex, Glowking, Heatran, Gouging Fire, and Skeledirge could all become real checks. It would still add the same defensive merit to the tier, but without having to guess if it's that disgustingly good Tera Blast Dragon set (this replay from SPL should tell you all you need to know), Tera Blast Ground, Tera Blast Water, and so on. Volcarona would be still a viable offensive threat but keeps the same defensive merit it already has which in my opinion holds the fairies (Valiant & Enamorus in check) at least somewhat in check.
Volcarona isn't the only abuser of Tera Blast (otherwise we should just ban Volcarona by tiering policy, right?). Ever thought what Tyranitar would look like with a STAB flying move? Well, now you can find out! I mentioned Tyranitar earlier not because it's good, but I have seen it win a lot of games at a high level by setting up on Zamazenta or Great Tusk and being easily able to 2HKO them. If you set up enough, afterwards your only answer left would be a Dondozo or a Corviknight in some cases. Despite personal thoughts on tera, I think Tera Blast is a bad mechanic that is basically makes it impossible in the builder. Some other examples include "what if Kyurem had fire type coverage!" or "what if every stored power user could have a fighting stab!" If we're having a serious conversation about Stored Power like what was suggested above, we should be talking about Tera Blast just as much. It's a nightmare in the builder and extremely difficult to account for which makes it worthy of a ban. Tera Blast adds absolutely nothing to the tier other than buffing already oppressive sweepers like Volcarona.
I have a lot more thoughts about Tera Blast, but I think it's inherently uncompetitive and unenjoyable and believe it adds nothing to the tier other than making building harder, and believe it should be banned. But I can't be bothered to write much more.
tldr; suspect consistently and often for awhile because it's clear a lot of the community is not happy with the state of the tier. do not suspect volcarona if you are going to, suspect tera blast. unbanning ubers as a "necessary evil" can be looked into in the future but not before suspecting other stuff like tera blast, roaring moon, gouging fire, and raging bolt as well.
That being said, I wanted to make this post to ensure that the metagame at the very least has a good direction in the future whether I'm apart of that future or not, I believe it's important to ensure that when it's all said and done and gen 10 comes out, SV has its place as an enjoyable, old gen, if not for all but for some. As such, I believe it's important that with such a volatile metagame, we consistently suspect and are open-minded to suspects such as Tera Blast (which this post is mostly about), and mons suspected in the past if we find them becoming overwhelming when/if the metagame settles (Kingambit, Gliscor, Kyurem).
I don't think that an Uber drop is necessary yet as some have suggested. TPP is absolutely right however, introducing a necessary evil back into the tier such as Chien-Pao to keep some offence in check (eg. Roaring Moon) while also threatening balance is something we should look at down the line if the tier is still incredibly unbalanced. That said, the tier is polarizing as is. Archaludon being suspected and banned is a major step in the right direction, but considering how chaotic and difficult it is in the builder in SV currently, I think we should focus on creating a balanced metagame without worrying about Ubers or what was banned in the past.
As such, I believe it's important we constantly suspect. I'm all for letting the metagame settle for a week after a ban, and perhaps let a week of SPL past. But past that and a tiering survey, I don't think we should be waiting at all to suspect. I also think in SV we've seen an anti-ban approach from a lot of good players spreading, and I think this is due to the immense power creep and tera, the idea of broken becomes really blurry. Dragon Dance Tera Flying Tyranitar is a real set that has been used on a team that was brought to SPL. It can take advantage of multiple major threats with TTars solid natural bulk and Tera Blast Flying luring in Great Tusk and Zamazenta. The point in saying this is that this set can beat multiple mons we've invited the idea of suspecting, which I think can wrongfully lead us down the road of thinking certain mons aren't broken. I think, even regardless, an anti-ban approach right now is wrong despite it mostly being in good faith I believe. There are people who take large issue with the metagame in its current state, including myself, and other players way better than me. I think this should be alarming to people and why we should consistently suspect, and continue to spark discussion on the best way to proceed with this complicated tier.
Tiering on Tera hasn't been ruled out but many council members including Finch and njnp have both addressed it as more or less, an afterthought right now, at least the mechanic itself. I however think that Tera Blast is the single most pressing issue in the tier right now. The three mons I've heard most as suspect canidates right now are Volcarona, Roaring Moon, and Gouging Fire. I personally believe out of these mons, the order in which I find them most to be an issue are in the order I listed them. But I do not support a suspect on Volcarona like I do on Roaring Moon and Gouging Fire, I believe banning Volcarona, or any mon that can viably abuse Tera Blast over just banning Tera Blast would be a severe tiering mistake.
Iron Valiant is just a mon I feel like at this point, we've accepted as a part of the tier, only being on the radar once in early SV. But in my opinion, it's one of the single most oppressive offensive threats in the metagame and guessing the set is just a nightmare. A 4x resist to Kingambit sucker punch helps it to become one of the better offensive answers to Kingambit despite not switching in, and as such it's extremely difficult to fit answers for Iron Valiant. Guessing the set of Iron Valiant also becomes tough because your switch-ins change drastically. An SD Knock Off CC set cannot switch in Gholdengo or Glowking, whereas otherwise it is oftentimes one of your best switch ins. Fairy Fighting is also a great stab combination on my favourite set of Valiants, Moonblast CC Knock Off Taunt/Encore. I'm not suggesting to suspect Iron Valiant (though a year down the line, when the meta settles and it's still oppressive, I say go for it). I find Volcarona to be by far the most consistent answer to Iron Valiant on offensive teams, as currently offensive teams can't really run a Poison, and the Steel tends to be Kingambit which is still weak to Valiant. You're left with Gholdengo and Volcarona as solid checks to Iron Valiant when in the builder not accounting for tera. Priority (not sucker punch) is another solid answer to Iron Valiant and can usually force a tera or a KO, but in terms of actual switch-ins for offence it becomes difficult. Volcarona provides inherit value to the builder when we consider its defensive presence and the amount it can check.
I do believe Volcarona would be a great mon without Tera Blast, but not nearly as oppressive. Toxapex, Glowking, Heatran, Gouging Fire, and Skeledirge could all become real checks. It would still add the same defensive merit to the tier, but without having to guess if it's that disgustingly good Tera Blast Dragon set (this replay from SPL should tell you all you need to know), Tera Blast Ground, Tera Blast Water, and so on. Volcarona would be still a viable offensive threat but keeps the same defensive merit it already has which in my opinion holds the fairies (Valiant & Enamorus in check) at least somewhat in check.
Volcarona isn't the only abuser of Tera Blast (otherwise we should just ban Volcarona by tiering policy, right?). Ever thought what Tyranitar would look like with a STAB flying move? Well, now you can find out! I mentioned Tyranitar earlier not because it's good, but I have seen it win a lot of games at a high level by setting up on Zamazenta or Great Tusk and being easily able to 2HKO them. If you set up enough, afterwards your only answer left would be a Dondozo or a Corviknight in some cases. Despite personal thoughts on tera, I think Tera Blast is a bad mechanic that is basically makes it impossible in the builder. Some other examples include "what if Kyurem had fire type coverage!" or "what if every stored power user could have a fighting stab!" If we're having a serious conversation about Stored Power like what was suggested above, we should be talking about Tera Blast just as much. It's a nightmare in the builder and extremely difficult to account for which makes it worthy of a ban. Tera Blast adds absolutely nothing to the tier other than buffing already oppressive sweepers like Volcarona.
I have a lot more thoughts about Tera Blast, but I think it's inherently uncompetitive and unenjoyable and believe it adds nothing to the tier other than making building harder, and believe it should be banned. But I can't be bothered to write much more.
tldr; suspect consistently and often for awhile because it's clear a lot of the community is not happy with the state of the tier. do not suspect volcarona if you are going to, suspect tera blast. unbanning ubers as a "necessary evil" can be looked into in the future but not before suspecting other stuff like tera blast, roaring moon, gouging fire, and raging bolt as well.
I am curious if there will be any plans to speed up the next few bans / suspects. I think the next, 5 or so suspects will be Roaring Moon, Gouging Fire, Raging Bolt, Tera Blast, and Wellspring, in whatever order & I don't think there will be a drastic meta shift unless 3 / 5 of these are banned (which is likely to happen).
I personally am not a fan of having a suspect every other week, although it does give players the greatest form of freedom in voicing their opinion. I'm wondering if there are any plans on doing, say, multiple suspects at the same time to speed up the process or QBing any of these Pokemon? What's the threshold on the next tiering survey for QBs?
I personally am not a fan of having a suspect every other week, although it does give players the greatest form of freedom in voicing their opinion. I'm wondering if there are any plans on doing, say, multiple suspects at the same time to speed up the process or QBing any of these Pokemon? What's the threshold on the next tiering survey for QBs?
I would say it is unlikely, as doing two suspects alt runs at the same time could be immensly draining. If it was something like "We will vote on these two mons and you only need to do one run" that would then call into question why you would need to do a suspect run after you have done your first. I'm much more on board with the QBs approach, but I would think a survey would be better first off maybe in a week's time to see what the community thinks the big threats are, since we do not know how the metagame will turn out. Sun teams may skyrocket in viability, but something else could rear its ugly head.
I also do wonder, what makes you think Wellspring is broken? I personally think it is alright, better than I thought in Early DLC2, but not banworthy?
Fighting/Steel is far better defensively. Plus Crowned can tera. With tera still in the tier crowned would absolutely be too strong as we saw before. Crowned might be debatable if tera goes though
I think that an interesting idea, maybe starting with the less egregious ones like Lugia and Zama-C ran in tournaments and see how they fare, and then do the other ones who are gonna very blatantly be too much like Flutter Mane, Bundle and Miradon/Koraidon to demonstrate why ubers do not typically drop unless they are weak enough. I do think unless tera gets axed, no Ubers should be dropped for the time being
Would be an amazing defensive tool for the tier if stored power were banned
Not sure I really agree with touching Tera Blast. Unlike defensive Tera which synergizes with your offensive tools, i.e Tera Flying Gambit go brr, Tera Blast is dependent on the risk/reward ratio, because it is a useless slot until you Tera, but normal offensive/defensive Tera never leaves you with dead slots.
For it to truly break a Pokemon, it has the break that ratio to the point where it being a dead slot most of the time doesn’t matter when it can easily 6-0 a team without a specific check. i.e Espathra and Eleki. Most of the top pokemon that were banned didn’t need Tera Blast to do so. Sneasler simply rocked CC/Gunk/Lash Out to hit everything. Magearna had SP + Dkiss along with all the coverage it would need anyways. Chien-Pao didn’t need Tera Blast when Tera Dark Crunch 2HKOd nearly everything anyways.
The only mon rn you could argue is broken because of Tera Blast is Volcarona who has near perfect coverage with either Tera Ground or Dragon. The rest do not need Tera Blast to be broken, nor is the risk/reward ratio skewed enough to make them broken with Tera Blast.
Serperior doesn’t even run Tera Blast that much these days because Sub-Seed + Defensive Tera is more consistent and less Tera reliant anyways. Enamorus doesn’t hit hard enough to break with Stellar Tera Blast, and Scarf Stellar keeps its weakness to SR. Iron Moth is the closest thing to Volcarona, but it is still not breaking through certain checks such as Ting-Lu. Gambit does run Tera Fairy Blast occasionally, but Gambit could still mow through some of its checks in several other ways. DD Kyu sets would be much worse without Tera Blast, but its other sets are the reason it was suspected in January. You might see some niche picks run Tera Blast, but nothing game breaking. The Tera Flying Blast CB Ttar example that was brought up. Um, I don’t think a slow wallbreaker with Tera Blast is anything to write home about. Plus a Tera Flying Ttar is now weak to rocks and is taking sand chip.
The issues with framing Tera Blast as an issue is most of the problematic elements in the tier are not caused by it.
For it to truly break a Pokemon, it has the break that ratio to the point where it being a dead slot most of the time doesn’t matter when it can easily 6-0 a team without a specific check. i.e Espathra and Eleki. Most of the top pokemon that were banned didn’t need Tera Blast to do so. Sneasler simply rocked CC/Gunk/Lash Out to hit everything. Magearna had SP + Dkiss along with all the coverage it would need anyways. Chien-Pao didn’t need Tera Blast when Tera Dark Crunch 2HKOd nearly everything anyways.
The only mon rn you could argue is broken because of Tera Blast is Volcarona who has near perfect coverage with either Tera Ground or Dragon. The rest do not need Tera Blast to be broken, nor is the risk/reward ratio skewed enough to make them broken with Tera Blast.
Serperior doesn’t even run Tera Blast that much these days because Sub-Seed + Defensive Tera is more consistent and less Tera reliant anyways. Enamorus doesn’t hit hard enough to break with Stellar Tera Blast, and Scarf Stellar keeps its weakness to SR. Iron Moth is the closest thing to Volcarona, but it is still not breaking through certain checks such as Ting-Lu. Gambit does run Tera Fairy Blast occasionally, but Gambit could still mow through some of its checks in several other ways. DD Kyu sets would be much worse without Tera Blast, but its other sets are the reason it was suspected in January. You might see some niche picks run Tera Blast, but nothing game breaking. The Tera Flying Blast CB Ttar example that was brought up. Um, I don’t think a slow wallbreaker with Tera Blast is anything to write home about. Plus a Tera Flying Ttar is now weak to rocks and is taking sand chip.
The issues with framing Tera Blast as an issue is most of the problematic elements in the tier are not caused by it.
I agree with 658Greninja, but would like to extend this to all the bans/suspects we've seen over the generation.
The ones who didn't need Tera Blast:
Flutter Mane: Fairy ghost is already perfect coverage for almost all your needs. Never saw any (serious) Tera Blast sets.
Last Respects and Shed Tail + their respective moves: Basculegion, Houndstone, Cyclizar, and Orthworm never ran Tera Blast because they had far more clearly broken moves to use instead.
Iron Bundle: Similarly to Flutter Mane, already had the perfect coverage in Freeze Dry + Water STAB. Would often Tera into it's own type for more power anyways.
Palafin: Already had pretty good coverage and didn't need to supplement it with Tera Blast. Would rather have the slot for Flip Turn (on Banded sets) or Taunt (on Bulk Up sets).
Annihilape: Once again, another case of perfect coverage.
Chi Yu: Too busy spamming its STABs to blow up everything.
Chien Pao: Good coverage with STABs + Sacred Sword, no reason to run Tera Blast.
Espathra: Already had Dazzling Gleam to hit Dark-type mons that would threaten to stop it's Stored Power sweep, and it didn't really need anything else when Stored Power would already heavily chunk resists.
Walking Wake: Good enough STABs to muscle through most mons through sheer power alone, and would struggle to fit Tera Blast on its sets.
Magearna: One of it's many sets might've had a reason to run Tera Blast, but the vast majority of them didn't need to.
Zamazenta Crowned: While it couldn't always pack all the coverage it needed, Iron Defense Body Press sets were still strong enough to not require coverage in Tera Blast.
Urshifu Rapid-Strike: Once again, good STABs with a large enough movepool to hit most resists, with Swords Dance to sometimes force its way through checks anyways.
Zamazenta Hero: Same story as Zamazenta Crowned, just worse.
Baxcalibur: Yet another case of good enough coverage with STABs + one extra, this time being Earthquake.
Ogerpon Hearthflame: Could only same type Tera.
Roaring Moon: Hits everything it needs with coverage, and would often just Tera Flying to boost its Acrobatics anyways.
Gliscor: Was too busy setting spikes to bother attacking with Tera Blast.
Ursaluna Bloodmoon: It has a 140 bp STAB move and Ground STAB to hit most resists, as well as Body Press to jump any poor Blisseys trying to handle it.
Sneasler: Same as Roaring Moon, but weaker and faster.
Terapagos: Had Tera Blast, but better.
Sleep: ???
Archaludon: Already has perfect coverage with Electro Shot + Body Press, and no reason to run Tera Blast beyond it.
The ones who did "need" Tera Blast:
Volcarona: The first mon who truly needed Tera Blast to become broken. Tera Blast allowed it to patch up the missing holes in its coverage, turning Volcarona into a dangerous matchup moth who could choose from a wide variety of sets and Tera types to sweep.
Regileki: "Hey what if we gave the mon balanced by having a horrible movepool the perfect coverage". Unsurprisingly, Tera Blast was 100% the thing that pushed it over the edge.
Kingambit: While Tera Fairy Tera Blast sets can be potent, as Greninja stated, its non Tera Blast sets are just as strong, if not stronger, and more common as well.
Kyurem: The most potent set was its special Specs set, and while Dragon Dance sets might've preferred to run Tera Blast, you could also make a very fair argument that Earth Power/Freeze Dry would be better in that slot to hit key checks, without losing any of its potency. Earth Power can hit Archaludon without boosting it to insane levels of defense, while Freeze Dry blew up Dondozo.
So out of all the bans/suspects in this generation, we have had 20 (21 if we count Houndstone, and 22 if we count the moves) bans that weren't related to Tera Blast, and 4 that were. Of the four, only 2 can be argued to be directly a fault of Tera Blast.
Meanwhile, what mons in OU even run Tera Blast nowadays?
Gambit and Volc were both already covered in the list above, so I'm not going to go over them again.
Enamorus and Serperior are the two clear picks, but can you really say either of them are broken, or made broken by Tera Blast?
Dragapult? Dragon Dance sets aren't very common nor that good, and sometimes people just run Phantom Force instead.
Raging Bolt? Similarly to Gambit, Tera Fairy Tera Blast can be strong, but Thunderbolt is just as reliable if not better, and Weather Ball sets are free, better Tera Blast anyways.
Tera Blast was never the issue for the vast majority of this generation, and I see no reason to look into it now.
The ones who didn't need Tera Blast:
Flutter Mane: Fairy ghost is already perfect coverage for almost all your needs. Never saw any (serious) Tera Blast sets.
Last Respects and Shed Tail + their respective moves: Basculegion, Houndstone, Cyclizar, and Orthworm never ran Tera Blast because they had far more clearly broken moves to use instead.
Iron Bundle: Similarly to Flutter Mane, already had the perfect coverage in Freeze Dry + Water STAB. Would often Tera into it's own type for more power anyways.
Palafin: Already had pretty good coverage and didn't need to supplement it with Tera Blast. Would rather have the slot for Flip Turn (on Banded sets) or Taunt (on Bulk Up sets).
Annihilape: Once again, another case of perfect coverage.
Chi Yu: Too busy spamming its STABs to blow up everything.
Chien Pao: Good coverage with STABs + Sacred Sword, no reason to run Tera Blast.
Espathra: Already had Dazzling Gleam to hit Dark-type mons that would threaten to stop it's Stored Power sweep, and it didn't really need anything else when Stored Power would already heavily chunk resists.
Walking Wake: Good enough STABs to muscle through most mons through sheer power alone, and would struggle to fit Tera Blast on its sets.
Magearna: One of it's many sets might've had a reason to run Tera Blast, but the vast majority of them didn't need to.
Zamazenta Crowned: While it couldn't always pack all the coverage it needed, Iron Defense Body Press sets were still strong enough to not require coverage in Tera Blast.
Urshifu Rapid-Strike: Once again, good STABs with a large enough movepool to hit most resists, with Swords Dance to sometimes force its way through checks anyways.
Zamazenta Hero: Same story as Zamazenta Crowned, just worse.
Baxcalibur: Yet another case of good enough coverage with STABs + one extra, this time being Earthquake.
Ogerpon Hearthflame: Could only same type Tera.
Roaring Moon: Hits everything it needs with coverage, and would often just Tera Flying to boost its Acrobatics anyways.
Gliscor: Was too busy setting spikes to bother attacking with Tera Blast.
Ursaluna Bloodmoon: It has a 140 bp STAB move and Ground STAB to hit most resists, as well as Body Press to jump any poor Blisseys trying to handle it.
Sneasler: Same as Roaring Moon, but weaker and faster.
Terapagos: Had Tera Blast, but better.
Sleep: ???
Archaludon: Already has perfect coverage with Electro Shot + Body Press, and no reason to run Tera Blast beyond it.
The ones who did "need" Tera Blast:
Volcarona: The first mon who truly needed Tera Blast to become broken. Tera Blast allowed it to patch up the missing holes in its coverage, turning Volcarona into a dangerous matchup moth who could choose from a wide variety of sets and Tera types to sweep.
Regileki: "Hey what if we gave the mon balanced by having a horrible movepool the perfect coverage". Unsurprisingly, Tera Blast was 100% the thing that pushed it over the edge.
Kingambit: While Tera Fairy Tera Blast sets can be potent, as Greninja stated, its non Tera Blast sets are just as strong, if not stronger, and more common as well.
Kyurem: The most potent set was its special Specs set, and while Dragon Dance sets might've preferred to run Tera Blast, you could also make a very fair argument that Earth Power/Freeze Dry would be better in that slot to hit key checks, without losing any of its potency. Earth Power can hit Archaludon without boosting it to insane levels of defense, while Freeze Dry blew up Dondozo.
So out of all the bans/suspects in this generation, we have had 20 (21 if we count Houndstone, and 22 if we count the moves) bans that weren't related to Tera Blast, and 4 that were. Of the four, only 2 can be argued to be directly a fault of Tera Blast.
Meanwhile, what mons in OU even run Tera Blast nowadays?
Gambit and Volc were both already covered in the list above, so I'm not going to go over them again.
Enamorus and Serperior are the two clear picks, but can you really say either of them are broken, or made broken by Tera Blast?
Dragapult? Dragon Dance sets aren't very common nor that good, and sometimes people just run Phantom Force instead.
Raging Bolt? Similarly to Gambit, Tera Fairy Tera Blast can be strong, but Thunderbolt is just as reliable if not better, and Weather Ball sets are free, better Tera Blast anyways.
Tera Blast was never the issue for the vast majority of this generation, and I see no reason to look into it now.
Tera Blast is also a fairly weak move. For Bolt, who is slow, struggles to make good use of it unless it's in a perfect position to use it. Most of the Dark and Fighting types die to Thunderclap anyway, and Dragons get obliterated by Draco. Defensive Tera fairy is good but imo Bolt doesn't really benefit much from tera blast, if at all.
The only mons who make best use of Terablast are mons who are desperate for a specific coverage. Vast majority of OU mons don't have that issue
The only mons who make best use of Terablast are mons who are desperate for a specific coverage. Vast majority of OU mons don't have that issue
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