Metagame Views From The Council

[ausma]

(these are my thoughts, not the council's)

Because of the nature of the Sleep Clause, Sleep's directly uncompetitive mechanics, and its in-congruence with cartridge mechanics being a nail in the coffin, I have always supported the notion behind upgrading the Sleep Clause into a full on restriction against direct Sleep-inducing moves. This is far from unreasonable imo; Sleep moves can easily be restricted due to existing precedent of the Sleep Clause itself whereas it's harder to dance around the nuances of moves like Scald or abilities like Static without tricky justifications that set awkward tiering precedents on how far we push tiering uncompetitiveness and how we do so.

This isn't really a discussion I think should be exclusive to Gen 9 OU but should be one that addresses the clause on a global scale. Sleep mechanically is going to always be a hot subject and I do believe its role in Gen 9 OU is not too much unlike that of previous modern generations where there is always going to be some level of fishing to take advantage of its extremely high reward.

That being said, while it is far from an element of the tier I'm clamoring to keep, I don't view Sleep as a pressing discussion point in Gen 9 OU specifically when the metagame is still in a state of polarity from a great deal of other factors. As a council member I personally would advocate for action against Pokemon like Kyurem first which centralize common defensive backbones that Hypnosis users like Darkrai can fish more easily against. This is part of why I think if we have a dedicated dialogue on reworking the Sleep Clause it should probably be on a greater scale since the problem is not really exclusively spotlighted by Gen 9 OU and only really stands out now tbh because Darkrai is a new option in the tier whose niche in past generations came from its obscene synergy with Sleep and people are trying to take advantage of that. Aislinn has mentioned numerous other Hypnosis users like Iron Valiant and Alolan Ninetales that make use of it in similarly efficient ways, so I don't really think targetting Darkrai specifically really addresses the core of the proposal should we move forward with it.

 

[Alternator]

I don't think sleep is an issue in OU, with the possible exception of Darkrai being better than I expected at sleep fishing, but I'm all in favor of nuking Sleep Clause mod and just banning sleep moves on "Get rid of game mod" grounds.

 

[skippergamez]

Both are RNG/Luck based. Shouldn’t discredit one while targeting the other in my opinion, even if one is stronger. Just like evasion, it’s all odds, percentages, luck, and RNG.

Once you eliminate sleep, the next logical step would be to eliminate the next mechanic that implements RNG to steal turns and/or swing games in paralysis.

I’m not disagreeing with you on the power of sleep, i just think it’s hypocritical (of anyone) to think one is ok and the other is not if the goal is to minimize RNG and luck deciding turns/games.

The goal is not to minimize RNG? The goal is to get rid of an majorly uncompetitive mechanic, per Smogon Tiering Terms

 

[A_Wild_Noob_Appeared!]

To echo a sentiment that was expressed in an older Policy Review thread, the "we should be cart accurate" argument is a bit misleading. For example, Showdown's HP bars historically have not been cart accurate (see Zarel's thread and Stratos' thread on the topic here). To summarize, Showdown does HP in percentages while the cartridge does them in fractions of 48th. On cart, moves like Stealth Rock damage, Substitute HP cost, and Leftovers recovery cleanly modify the HP bar by 1/8, 1/4, or 1/16, respectively. The percentage format on Showdown means that we end up with rounding errors (6.25%, 12.5%, 33.3%) that has led players to pursue weird EV spreads that exploit this difference (e.g. Leftovers number, 24% HP Substitutes, HP numbers that minimize SR damage on Showdown). Do you feel dirty using weird EV spreads to exploit the simulator's algorithm?

This doesn't reflect an actual difference in how much damage percentage-based effects deal, it only reflects a difference in how information is shown to your opponent. In generations using a 48-pixel HP bar, the remaining HP is rounded to the nearest 1/48, whereas Showdown always rounds up on the remaining HP. The 24% HP substitute actually uses 24.9% of the user's HP, which would be rounded to 25% all of the time if Showdown rounded in the same way. The exact amount of damage is the same, so HP number tricks work the same, it's just that the displayed percentage of damage may differ from case to case on Showdown whereas on cart the pixel change is (almost) always the same.

 

[Goodstyle]

I have a somewhat dumb sounding mid-ground, but hear me out:

What if we ban all sleep moves that aren't 100% accurate? Basically everything but Spore? The uncompetitive nature of sleep moves is that very powerful pokemon gain access to a move that turns most games into a coinflip. Boosting mons like Iron Valiant and Darkrai can suddenly win games off of getting lucky, or throw it away almost as likely.

Spore is the only sleep move in the game that Gamefreak conciously balanced its users around. Furthermore, Spore can be negated by grass types and mons immune to grass moves/powder moves.

I know it sounds stupid, banning moves that are objectively worse than Spore, but the fact that Spore always lands makes it feel more like part of a competitive environment, rather than an aggressive coin flip.

If it's decided that sleep moves entirely should go, I wouldn't lose sleep over it, but this mid ground may end up pleasing people who hate sleep, but don't want to say goodbye to their beloved Spore users.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

wouldn't it be fucked up if we go through all this debating, end up getting rid of sleep clause, and then game freak adds it as an official option next gen

If it's decided that sleep moves entirely should go, I wouldn't lose sleep over it,

yes you would

 

[boo836]

This discussion on sleep feels very silly because we're essentially rehashing very old conversations on move bans that never went anywhere, just like banning Stealth Rock or Scald or other mechanics that can have enormous impact in games. Pokemon is fundamentally a game of probability management in strategy with the implicit understanding among participants that games are not in their control but are subject to the whims of an RNG. It's insane to completely ban a fundamental game mechanic just because Darkrai can fish for a coinflip twice. If it's that much of a problem, the weight of the ban (almost [looking at you, BW]) always falls on the individual abusers.

And for the "cart simulation" purists: The entire basis of the clause system is to set conditions for a loss. If you want to fix the system towards cart accuracy, then double opp-forced sleep should be possible and always lead to a loss, even in forced circumstances (ie encore). Get rid of Freeze clause and HP percentages and visible log information beyond the current turn. As stated elsewhere we would be implementing battle timers and move animations. Too small for you to care about? Then don't pretend this is about faithful simulations of the carts. This is a simulation of Pokemon mechanics, not GF/TPC's game, and we shouldn't pretend like it's not supposed to be us determining the rulesets.

 

[turd2]

I dare someone to get high rating with Hypnosis + Nasty Plot Gengar. I don't think you can do it. Gengar has too many flaws (squishy, outsped by many top threats, no chip damage from Bad Dreams limits his ability to break defensive mons, no flinch chance via Dark Pulse, weak to Clodsire's Earthquake, etc)

Only Darkrai can abuse that set. He is an uber-quality mon in OU. Just ban the uber.

 

[TPP]

I pretty much echo Vert and personally my stance is to do nothing. Using Hypnosis is high risk high reward and you not only have to hit the move, but then bank on the opponent sleeping at least 2-3 turns for it to be worth it. Every now and then it'll work out and it can be annoying, but the same can be said about opponents who get every Flame Body/Static activation, burn every Scald, have their Kingambit crit through your resists, load Quick Claw spam and the list goes on. We're playing a game that's had RNG since the very beginning and unless we're willing to take action on all forms of it, then I'd rather not touch it.

If the argument of "not knowing when my mon will wake up is uncompetitive" can be used to ban Sleep Moves, then I think Paralysis and Freeze moves have to go alongside them. After getting hit by T-wave or Static, I don't know if my mon will get paralyzed 0 times, 1 time, or 6 times in a row (personal best record is 7 times), and it's just something I have to accept while playing to my best odds.

Speaking of odds, the Sash Darkrai set does give itself the best opportunity to put things to sleep and immediately benefit from it, but that is largely due to the combination of its 125 Speed stat, access to Nasty Plot + Ice Beam, and the Focus Sash essentially giving it a 2nd chance to hit Hypnosis if it missed or if the target wakes up immediately. Gliscor and Gholdengo can handle Amoonguss and Hypnosis Valiant in general, but Darkrai can KO both, outspeed a majority of the tier, and hit hard all by itself after a Nasty Plot. I think if any action is taken, then a Darkrai ban (the cause for the current discussion) is the best way to go, but I also do think there's more pressing things in the tier atm like Kyurem.

That being said, my best advice is to tell the council how you feel about these mons on the next survey, whenever that is. Have a nice day.

 

[Hydrametr0nice]

This isn't really a discussion I think should be exclusive to Gen 9 OU but should be one that addresses the clause on a global scale. (...)

This is part of why I think if we have a dedicated dialogue on reworking the Sleep Clause it should probably be on a greater scale since the problem is not really exclusively spotlighted by Gen 9 OU (...).

THIS.

If you wish to eliminate the Sleep Clause Mod and introduce the Sleep Moves Clause into Gen 9 OU, apply these changes uniformly across all formats and generations with Standard Rules, just like evasion clauses. There is no justification for selectively implementing this modification solely for Gen 9 without extending it to Gen 8, 7, and beyond.

Either keep and just accept the Sleep Clause Mod or remove it entirely from Showdown; either option is acceptable.

 

[MeepBard]

This discussion on sleep feels very silly because we're essentially rehashing very old conversations on move bans that never went anywhere, just like banning Stealth Rock or Scald or other mechanics that can have enormous impact in games. Pokemon is fundamentally a game of probability management in strategy with the implicit understanding among participants that games are not in their control but are subject to the whims of an RNG. It's insane to completely ban a fundamental game mechanic just because Darkrai can fish for a coinflip twice. If it's that much of a problem, the weight of the ban (almost [looking at you, BW]) always falls on the individual abusers.

i don't disagree with the first part here, but i do think the second part of this post is a little misguided:

And for the "cart simulation" purists: The entire basis of the clause system is to set conditions for a loss. If you want to fix the system towards cart accuracy, then double opp-forced sleep should be possible and always lead to a loss, even in forced circumstances (ie encore).

you have to make a few compromises to ensure the game remains user friendly - introducing a brand new win condition would not be. simply graying out the move once an opposing pokemon is sleeping is a much more user-friendly way of doing that and the cart-accurate equivalent of this would be to simply not click the sleeping move, just like we enforce other arbitrary rules like "don't bring an uber to an OU match" and "don't mega evolve gengar in gen 7 OU".

Get rid of Freeze clause and HP percentages and visible log information beyond the current turn.

HP percentages and visible logs are covered by the "impartial judge" reasoning, as i'd brought up earlier: in a cart setting, a judge is the one computing this information and displaying it to the players. freeze clause is, objectively, a mod, and it is mentioned as an exception to the "remain true to cart" ruling on the official policy framework. the alternative there would have been to ban all moves that inflict freeze in RBY / GSC, and the competitive merit of Ice Beam and Blizzard meant that the playerbase took the unorthodox approach to modify the game. it's an extremely rare exception and should not be taken as a hard rule

As stated elsewhere we would be implementing battle timers and move animations.

PS! doesn't simulate the in-game timer, it simulates an external timer which is unaffected by the length of move animations (think a chess clock). if the argument is that the in-game timer could reach 0 before the external timer runs out, then in theory the game could be replayed infinitely until the exact same game state is achieved. highly impractical in terms of running an actual in-person event, but yes, theoretically possible on cart - PS! just obviously skips the whole "replaying the game a million times" part because we are on a simulator and we can enjoy the advantages of being on a simulator without deviating from cartridge mechanics.

overall, i do think it's important to remain true to cart whenever possible as outlined in the tiering policy framework because it's pretty difficult to objectively say "oh this has to be accurate to cart while we can bend the rules with this" and - unfortunately, though it is every smogon user's most detested phrase - opens up a slippery slope where we can just modify whatever mechanics we don't like about the game. i think the overall discussion on sleep clause is a bit beyond the scope of this thread however

 

[Oatmon]

THIS.

If you wish to eliminate the Sleep Clause Mod and introduce the Sleep Moves Clause into Gen 9 OU, apply these changes uniformly across all formats and generations with Standard Rules, just like evasion clauses. There is no justification for selectively implementing this modification solely for Gen 9 without extending it to Gen 8, 7, and beyond.

Either keep and just accept the Sleep Clause Mod or remove it entirely from Showdown; either option is acceptable.

As someone who plays an old gen, this doesn't sound feasible in the short term. Few communities would accept a change like this, it would be another fiasco where they ask for whoever implemented or pushed through the changes to resign. Then the changes would be reversed, and nothing good will have been accomplished.

It's a much more reasonable first step to make these changes in a single tier, then role them out slowly in other tiers as the individual communities have time to discuss them (if any changes to the sleep clause mod are to be made at all).

 

[Storm Zone]

Hey Good night yall just wanna step in and state my opinions on darkrai and how we should go about it, im tagging Vert Finchinator and ausma because i think this is a solution to the alleged problem that everybody is uproaring about, which is hypnosis darkrai.

So i look at it like this, sleep has always been apart of the game, so banning darkrai just because of hypnosis would be silly as other fast pokemon that are more threatening get it, lets look at some examples:

Iron Valiant: hypnosis is scarier on valiant than it is on darkrai because its faster and has more options and it can not be revenge killed very easily, (and darkrai can)

Amoonguss: We have 100% accuracy sleep on this which comes in on fairies in a meta where fairies are more dominant than ever before, but the argument that separates it from darkrai is that gholdengo stops it, so i guess we can nullify this example if you are basing it off of that.

Lilligant hisui: This is scarier in the sun in recent times than darkrai ever was because its sleep powder not only has a higher chance to sleep u than hypnosis, it literally outspeeds everything except hawlucha and can tera appropriately to beat any pokemon.

So given these examples lets put darkrai up there with them, there are 2 possible solutions, and only one youd be okay with making realistically,

Solution #1: ban sleep altogether, probably the worst of the 2 since you can never make such a big decision so suddenly

Solution #2: we can ban the combination of the ability bad dreams + hypnosis, since bad dreams is what i assumed made people view it as broken, this way hypnosis is still usable on all other pokemon, and only darkrai won't be able to use it because of its ability.

I strongly recommend solution #2, i know it may be a bit complex, but banning a mon that has literally performed like a B ranked mon in viability at best and sometimes worse without the hypnosis sets, is unethical and that route is un necessary, darkrai struggles with its coverage, it becomes special weavile with its nice speed tier without the hypnosis sets. Nasty plot/swords dance + coverage is what weavile and darkrai both do, and are completely balanced in this metagame, this is a viable solution that doesnt affect anything else in the tier other than balancing it out.

And if you are still not convinced, what if pult got hypnosis, the hypnosis dd hex darts infiltrator sets would be disgusting, and our solution would be banning dragapult too, even tho clearly without hypnosis, its just good, nothing more nothing less, lets say gholdengo with hypnosis, same thing right, i dont think i need to go into further detail, lets just atleast consider going with this decision as it will make the entire community happy, you could even do a vote , itll prove everybody would want this decision.

My conclusion:
Darkrai is balanced, sleep is not, hypnosis + bad dreams is not, banning darkrai = unnecessary solution that we will regret later on, tackling sleep or the combination of hypnosis + the bad dreams ability is the right way to go here.

 

[Finchinator]

Solution #2: we can ban the combination of the ability bad dreams + hypnosis, since bad dreams is what i assumed made people view it as broken, this way hypnosis is still usable on all other pokemon, and only darkrai won't be able to use it because of its ability.

the combination of hypnosis + the bad dreams ability is the right way to go here.

Should we unban Palafin and ban the combination of Zero to Hero + Jet Punch? Should we unban Shaymin-Sky and ban the combination of Serene Grace + Air Slash? Should we unban Regieleki and ban the combination of Transistor + Tera Blast? Should we unban Urshifu and ban the combination of Unseen Fist + Surging Strike or Wicked Blow?

And if you are ok with these type of combination bans, then what differentiates them from specific Pokemon + specific abilities or moves? Let's ban Ho-Oh with Regenerator, Landorus with Sheer Force, or Sneasel with Unburden while we are at it.

This would not be feasible. If you want to go to this lengths, then your argument is simply to ban Darkrai. I am not saying that is the right argument, but you do not just play sloppy musical chairs with collateral damage like this.

 

[Heatranator]

Hey Good night yall just wanna step in and state my opinions on darkrai and how we should go about it, im tagging Vert Finchinator and ausma because i think this is a solution to the alleged problem that everybody is uproaring about, which is hypnosis darkrai.

So i look at it like this, sleep has always been apart of the game, so banning darkrai just because of hypnosis would be silly as other fast pokemon that are more threatening get it, lets look at some examples:</p><p></p><p>Iron Valiant: hypnosis is scarier on valiant than it is on darkrai because its faster and has more options and it can not be revenge killed very easily, (and darkrai can)

Amoonguss: We have 100% accuracy sleep on this which comes in on fairies in a meta where fairies are more dominant than ever before, but the argument that separates it from darkrai is that gholdengo stops it, so i guess we can nullify this example if you are basing it off of that.

Lilligant hisui: This is scarier in the sun in recent times than darkrai ever was because its sleep powder not only has a higher chance to sleep u than hypnosis, it literally outspeeds everything except hawlucha and can tera appropriately to beat any pokemon.

So given these examples lets put darkrai up there with them, there are 2 possible solutions, and only one youd be okay with making realistically,

Solution #1: ban sleep altogether, probably the worst of the 2 since you can never make such a big decision so suddenly

Solution #2: we can ban the combination of the ability bad dreams + hypnosis, since bad dreams is what i assumed made people view it as broken, this way hypnosis is still usable on all other pokemon, and only darkrai won't be able to use it because of its ability.

I strongly recommend solution #2, i know it may be a bit complex, but banning a mon that has literally performed like a B ranked mon in viability at best and sometimes worse without the hypnosis sets, is unethical and that route is un necessary, darkrai struggles with its coverage, it becomes special weavile with its nice speed tier without the hypnosis sets. Nasty plot/swords dance + coverage is what weavile and darkrai both do, and are completely balanced in this metagame, this is a viable solution that doesnt affect anything else in the tier other than balancing it out.

And if you are still not convinced, what if pult got hypnosis, the hypnosis dd hex darts infiltrator sets would be disgusting, and our solution would be banning dragapult too, even tho clearly without hypnosis, its just good, nothing more nothing less, lets say gholdengo with hypnosis, same thing right, i dont think i need to go into further detail, lets just atleast consider going with this decision as it will make the entire community happy, you could even do a vote , itll prove everybody would want this decision.

My conclusion:
Darkrai is balanced, sleep is not, hypnosis + bad dreams is not, banning darkrai = unnecessary solution that we will regret later on, tackling sleep or the combination of hypnosis + the bad dreams ability is the right way to go here.

While I can see this being an alright solution, I think we should avoid complicated bans for the most part. And to people saying that "sleep clause is a complicated ban", stop. It is a clause, and thus is entirely different from a ban. As long as a mon can learn a sleep move, it can be used on any amount of mons on a team. I think that it would also be not the best interest for darkrai, as its whole gimmick is putting opponents to sleep, which I believe you shouldn't take away from it. It's like taking away rage fist from annihilape, as long as it is it's mostly signature move, it should not be banned on its own. While primeape may not be busted with it, it is taking away a fundemental part of its design.

 

[June Heat]

It's crazy to me that people are wanting to bend over back words for Darkrai just because it's proving to be not as mid as people were saying. Why not just ban Rage Fist or ban Annihliape + Rage Fist. Annihilape would be balanced in OU without it after all. Same with Iron Bundle and Freeze Dry. Same with Palafin and Jet Punch. It's just not what we do. Either Ban Sleep moves altogether, recognize that people have found the set that pushes Darkrai over the edge, or just suck it up and adapt like so many Top Players have been saying for this Gen.

 

[Storm Zone]

Then just ban sleep, that was the first solution i suggested, sleep was always dumb thats why we got a sleep clause, its not enough, banning sleep would solve it then if thats what ur basing it off of.

 

[June Heat]

Then just ban sleep, that was the first solution i suggested, sleep was always dumb thats why we got a sleep clause, its not enough, banning sleep would solve it then if thats what ur basing it off of.

Or perhaps Banning Darkrai would solve it. Sleep has never been a problem in SV OU, and the fact that we are now humoring the banning of a entire mechanic to save one mon is nuts. I'm not even convinced the other Sleep users are problematic either. Iron Valiant can't afford to run sash, and gains far less from Sleep than Darkrai does thanks to Bad Dreams. H-Liligant/Venusaur are only viable on Sun Teams and still have the same problems of coverage vs set up that Darkrai has without the benefit of Bad Dreams chip. ATales risks losing precious HP/Veil Turns by spamming Hypnosis and is generally just somewhat passive. Amoonguss is Amoonguss and hasn't been a problem since Gen 5. Worst of all Yawn, which is a healthy part of the game and adds alot of utility to other wise passive mons, would be pretty significant collateral damage.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Hey Good night yall just wanna step in and state my opinions on darkrai and how we should go about it, im tagging Vert Finchinator and ausma because i think this is a solution to the alleged problem that everybody is uproaring about, which is hypnosis darkrai.

So i look at it like this, sleep has always been apart of the game, so banning darkrai just because of hypnosis would be silly as other fast pokemon that are more threatening get it, lets look at some examples:</p><p></p><p>Iron Valiant: hypnosis is scarier on valiant than it is on darkrai because its faster and has more options and it can not be revenge killed very easily, (and darkrai can)

Amoonguss: We have 100% accuracy sleep on this which comes in on fairies in a meta where fairies are more dominant than ever before, but the argument that separates it from darkrai is that gholdengo stops it, so i guess we can nullify this example if you are basing it off of that.

Lilligant hisui: This is scarier in the sun in recent times than darkrai ever was because its sleep powder not only has a higher chance to sleep u than hypnosis, it literally outspeeds everything except hawlucha and can tera appropriately to beat any pokemon.

So given these examples lets put darkrai up there with them, there are 2 possible solutions, and only one youd be okay with making realistically,

Solution #1: ban sleep altogether, probably the worst of the 2 since you can never make such a big decision so suddenly

Solution #2: we can ban the combination of the ability bad dreams + hypnosis, since bad dreams is what i assumed made people view it as broken, this way hypnosis is still usable on all other pokemon, and only darkrai won't be able to use it because of its ability.

I strongly recommend solution #2, i know it may be a bit complex, but banning a mon that has literally performed like a B ranked mon in viability at best and sometimes worse without the hypnosis sets, is unethical and that route is un necessary, darkrai struggles with its coverage, it becomes special weavile with its nice speed tier without the hypnosis sets. Nasty plot/swords dance + coverage is what weavile and darkrai both do, and are completely balanced in this metagame, this is a viable solution that doesnt affect anything else in the tier other than balancing it out.

And if you are still not convinced, what if pult got hypnosis, the hypnosis dd hex darts infiltrator sets would be disgusting, and our solution would be banning dragapult too, even tho clearly without hypnosis, its just good, nothing more nothing less, lets say gholdengo with hypnosis, same thing right, i dont think i need to go into further detail, lets just atleast consider going with this decision as it will make the entire community happy, you could even do a vote , itll prove everybody would want this decision.

My conclusion:
Darkrai is balanced, sleep is not, hypnosis + bad dreams is not, banning darkrai = unnecessary solution that we will regret later on, tackling sleep or the combination of hypnosis + the bad dreams ability is the right way to go here.

the problem with the second solution is that complex bans are a tiering cardinal sin, which is part of why sleep clause mod is on such shaky ground in the first place—even outside of the cartridge faithfulness argument, it doesn't gel with modern tiering philosophy at all. there are exactly three reasonable options to take here:

1. suspect darkrai, then continue this discussion based on the results of the suspect
2. replace sleep clause mod with sleep moves clause
3. do nothing

option 1 would be my ideal solution; while i believe option 2 is ultimately the correct decision, i think it would make the most sense to get sleep's most prominent abuser out of the tier before making that decision. of course, there should be a tiering survey before anything happens, and i think there are much more pressing concerns right now that we should address before making moves on sleep, such as kyurem, roaring moon, and gouging fire

 

[tinyranitar]

I just feel like looking at Darkrai as the reason for this discussion is just looking at the last straw and not looking at the huge pile of straw underneath it. The reason Darkrai's sleep set is so popular is because of the pre-conceived notion of Darkrai being related to Sleep, which makes people run that set more often. Sure, there are competitive merit of Darkrai being able to confirm Magic Guard existence by Bad Dream, and it beating Gholdengo coming into block Hypnosis, but ultimately I don't think people will be switching Gholdengo into Darkrai in the first place due to NP + 3 attack or choice set being much more popular, and the Magic Guard thing is a nice but niche situation.
You could argue the same with Valiant, as Gholdengo switching into a Valiant SD or Calm Mind means it's gonna get blown up by Knock Off or Shadow Ball. Hypnosis is crazy on any fast mons, and it's something to put into perspective when you try to shift the conversation toward Darkrai. I don't think Sleep is problematic as it is now (though, if there was a decision to ban Sleep, I would say it's perfectly reasonable to do so), but I think it's missing the point if you want to focus on Darkrai and not Hypnosis itself as a move.

 

[Shellnuts]

THIS.

If you wish to eliminate the Sleep Clause Mod and introduce the Sleep Moves Clause into Gen 9 OU, apply these changes uniformly across all formats and generations with Standard Rules, just like evasion clauses. There is no justification for selectively implementing this modification solely for Gen 9 without extending it to Gen 8, 7, and beyond.

Either keep and just accept the Sleep Clause Mod or remove it entirely from Showdown; either option is acceptable.

As an old gen player, I can guarantee that making this decision and forcing it to be applied uniformly across all gens would go down worse than making RBY Best of 1 in SPL did.

If the player base of a generation agrees that Sleep Clause Mod should be removed and sleep should be banned, then that's not an issue, but if the players don't want it removed, likely because it will drastically reshape large parts of their metagames, especially in gens 1 and 2, then that's their choice to make, and nobody else should make it for them just so the rulesets look nicer or whatever.

 

[nimzowitsch]

As an old gen player, I can guarantee that making this decision and forcing it to be applied uniformly across all gens would go down worse than making RBY Best of 1 in SPL did.

If the player base of a generation agrees that Sleep Clause Mod should be removed and sleep should be banned, then that's not an issue, but if the players don't want it removed, likely because it will drastically reshape large parts of their metagames, especially in gens 1 and 2, then that's their choice to make, and nobody else should make it for them just so the rulesets look nicer or whatever.

Even though I am pro-Sleep Moves clause for gen 9, I agree with this take. Like it or not Sleep-inducing moves are an integral part of some early gen metagames such as Gen 1-2. I would leave it to each generation's playerbase to decide their own policy on Sleep. There's already precedent for this for Gen 5, where Sleep moves are already entirely banned.

 

[Harmless]

This feels kind of random to bring up. Is sleep stupid and broken? For sure! We have known this! It's hardly a grand revelation we had as a collective one day. The status that incapacitates you is busted? Say it ain't so. I'll make my position clear right now so you can scroll past my post (shoutouts to my fellow lurkers).

My genius proposal: do nothing.

The way I see it, we're not really here to play the "real" or "official" pokemon game, are we? Because game freak does not ban OHKO moves, or evasion moves, or bright powder, or kings rock, or quick claw, or any of that. There was a mf at worlds with bright powder/snow cloak articuno that did nothing but fish for sheer cold kills. The ultimate evil, yet it's perfectly legal in cart battles, while bringing such a thing to OU would have you publicly executed. As stated earlier as well, there are some non cart mechanics that exist on showdown as well, mainly the pixel hp bar shit. The way I see it, showdown is pretty much perfect in the ways that actually matter (outside of the pixel chicanery).
If I'm not mistaken, the battle timer is also not cart accurate, but it's still there. Sure, it might be handwaved by the impartial judge we all love so much, but at least in gen 9, a timer is enforced on all pvp battles that counts differently than showdown does. And while they are accessibility things, battle logs are also technically not "cart accurate". I really do not understand the sudden fuss that isn't at the very least somewhat related to specifically darkrai.


Now, do I like sleep? Do I think it's the zenith of game design that must be preserved? No. While I'm anti-ban, I can't say I would shed a tear if it was banned. But ultimately, pokemon is a game full of dumb bullshit, if it wasn't we wouldn't have gotten that lavos post from way back when. Flinches, scald, shadow ball spdef drops, critical hits, static, flame body, paralysis, they just put fickle beam in the game which idk if anyone actually uses that but it's still legal despite it's 30% chance to turn into a nuclear bomb, you get the picture. Luck is just apart of the game, and while sleep is undeniably extremely powerful, I don't see it as some insane outlier. Especially considering there are about three good pokemon that learn sleep moves. One of them being darkrai, and the others are that iron valiant set that I just don't see as being as bad as darkrai (considering darkrai matches up much better against the sleep absorbers), and amoongus who you'd be hard pressed to convince people is a real problem.


As for the practicality of sleep clause.... just don't click spore/hypnosis while the other guy is asleep? I don't really see the issue on that front. I just find it somewhat dubious that this discussion sparked up again as soon as darkrai got back on his bullshit.........
Yes, sleep clause is a mod, but you can give your pokemon longer nicknames and some of them aren't censored, which is also a mod that while it doesn't effect gameplay is an example of "not being cart accurate".


As for the question of "what do we gain by keeping it", there's a lot of dumb bullshit we keep around because it's apart of the game. And we get the oh-so-lovable amoongus and breloom, who would want to neuter these handsome fellows? And for the question of "how would you feel if sleep was introduced in gen 9", how would you feel if the world was made of pudding. While I realize that's a shitpost/bad faith arguement, I think trying to discuss something's legality based on hypotheticals is a litte bit silly. Maybe if sleep was new we would think differently of it, but it's not, so we don't.


Anyways, conclusion. Sleep has always been dumb but there's really no need to upend sleep clause in the name of social justice (cart accuracy) or for being uncompetitive (look what game we're playing).

 

[blueman164]

So this is almost entirely a niche subject, and I'm not sure how much relevancy this has to the discussion of a sleep ban since this is not even close to an OU-tier mon I'm gonna be referencing, but on the basis that this could affect the entirety of showdown, I'm going to speak up anyways. If sleep-inducing moves are banned, what happens to moves that *can* inflict sleep? Would Relic Song on Meloetta be unusable? Are we going to dumpster an entire mechanic of an already mid Pokemon to save Darkrai in OU? If Relic Song still works, would it just be modded to block sleep? Would it still be allowed to inflict sleep as the sole exception? It seems like banning sleep as a whole opens a lot of complicated situations, the least of which being this confusing little conundrum involving Meloetta, that could just be avoided by sending the Pokemon that's been Ubers for the past 4 generations, back to Ubers.

 

[1234hjkl]

This entire thing smells of sour grapes of people wanting darkrai banned even though it was proved it was mid. Like are people really saying a shitty unreliable set, even more easy to respond than NP+3, who might screw you over and done better by a better mon (I.Valiant) who doesn't use it because it's a shitty unreliable set is the reason to ban it? Why not do the same to Gengar, Milotic or Alolatales as well? When turd2 started posting replays of "Darkrai being broken because Sleep-Hax" people spent like 3-4 pages saying it was a bad set and he kept winning because a mix of many factors like lucky, bad plays and overall bad match-up to darkrai. I'm the stance of Vert of doing nothing. Unless you can prove sleep as an whole is broken I don't see a reason to ban it all and a A- mon using a unreliable shitty set sure as hell ain't it. During my run at the suspect at ND, I ran into like 3-4 Darkrais using this set or similiar like Z-Hypno and even after they put something to sleep, they were all dead-weight because they either lacked power or coverage to break stuff and sometimes both. I get it the focus is sleep as a whole but the main post kinda seems to paint Darkrai either as the the main villain or the straw which broke the camels back and seriously I don't see Darkrai as an issue, so I say either do nothing, let the meta keep going or just ban moves who guarantee sleep which I also don't agree as well since this isn't Gen 5 were sleep resets on the switch.
Edit: it's A- rather than B+ on the viability thread.