VGC 2015 Viability Rankings - Mark 2

[Pigeons]

I'm really liking the changes that are being made, the Rankings are looking even more solid :D Anyways, some noms of my own:

Blaziken B- -> B/B+
Blaziken is really good right now. The LO Mixed set manages to outspeed and KO so many threats in the current metagame after a single speed boost, such as Kangaskhan, Landorus, Salamence, Aegislash and Metagross. It has a lot of good coverage options outside of the standard set, such as Rock Slide, Knock Off, Thunder Punch, Brave Bird and Feint, so it can really be customized to hit certain threats. Speed Boost is a huge asset as well, it makes Blaziken ridiculously hard to revenge kill in some cases. Talonflame is also on the decline, which is great for the chicken. Probably Blaze's biggest problem is the increase in Milotic/Suicune/Cress usuage to combat Salamence, but they can be fairly easily handled with a bit of team support. Just in case anyone is not familiar with it, here is the LO Mixed set I referenced:

Blaziken @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
Level: 50
EVs: 60 Atk / 196 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
IVs: 30 HP / 30 Def
- Overheat
- Superpower
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Protect

Terrakion A+ -> A
Terrakion is still very good for hitting Kangaskhan and Charizard-Y hard, but I don't think it's quite A+. For starters, the abundance of Landorus in the meta sucks for Terrakion. It's outsped, and has Intimidate to boot. Being so weak to one of the most common mons in the tier is rather unfortunate (although HP Ice with Scarf is a cool lure). Other factors inhibit Terrakion as well, such as Aegislash (who I've been seeing a lot more of lately), and an increased abundance of Mence checks which also beat Terrakion (the previously mentioned Cress, Suicune etc.). It's still a very solid mon to patch up weaknesses to Kangaskhan, Char-Y and others, but I feel the meta is just a tad unkind to it for it to be A+.

 

[ProjectTitan313]

ok, made a few more changes to the list b/c meta shifts/etc. we've been discussing this list a lot lately so you should join #smogonvgc to get in on the conversation !!

Salamence-Mega A+ -> S : in the words of user: Jio , "I'm not saying Mega Salamence could be the next Mega Kangaskhan, but Mega Salamence is the next Mega Kangaskhan." mence fits the S description by easily busting jaws with powerful flying type moves, is flexible, and doesn't require too much team support to be effective (clefairy). if nothing else, this is a change that should be discussed imo.
Clefairy/Clefable A -> A+

Mence + Clefairy is the second most sinful combo in VGC. The essentially uncounterable Mega Gengar + Prankster Encore mon still towers my shitlist. I should not have to run 3+ teammates with powerful, SE STABs to kil it + an Aromatisse to fuck off the Encores. This meta would be literally perfect if it banned Dark Void and Perish Song. Cue Wolfe Glick, showing the world how fucking stupid Perish Trap is.
ANYWAY, ON TOPIC, Mega Mence is a royal bastard, and since it's basically never seen without Clefairy, Friend Guard makes it outright obnoxious to KO without Pixilate / Refridgerate Hyper Voice and Clefairy cuntpunts all hope of Ice Beam or Draco Meteor. UNfortunately for Salamence, Togekiss + Aegislash/MegaGross is also a really fun redirect combo that takes a giant steaming shit on it.
But if you don't go out of your way to dick with that specific combo, yes, the jaw-snapping Flying spam will turn even the bulkiest of mons into invertabrates and it's hard to stop without Hyper Voice or Icy Wind. One DD and you're losing 1-2 mons, and that isn't exactly hard to set up. At all. Or it could Hyper Voice everything to death in 2 hits while Clefairy sponges everything. You never really know until after it decides to murder something.

Togekiss A- -> B+ : clefs kinda leave it in the dust.

Well, Togekiss has Tailwind, trolls the fuck out of anything it outspeeds, and has that nice ability to 2HKO megaMence with Dazzling Gleam (try doing that with a Clefairy / Clefable). Yeah, Flying's horrifyingly bad weaknesses are a bitch, but tbh, it does make a really funny (and fairly good) Weakness policy mon and it lets you spam EQ some more. Kiss doesn't really mind Suicune's Ice Beam that much. Clefairy + Tailwind mon, more popular, overall better, yeah, but Togekiss is damn good at doing both in one slot. It's been a huge help on my team for the support + beating the shit out of Mence+Clefairy. So, you know, it's able to do something other than spam Follow Me.

Swampert B+ -> B : its only decent stats can let it down sometimes.

Guys you need LO Swampy.
But seriously, no argument on this one, Swampy can be total shit at times and its stats are largely to blame. Plus, people actually use it now so the surprise factor slumped and Swampy did rely on it a bit. So yes, drop it to B, Titan approves for once :P

 

[tofucocoa]

I'm really liking the changes that are being made, the Rankings are looking even more solid :D Anyways, some noms of my own:

blaziken is pretty much on par with greninja, being fast/frail with anti-meta coverage. the problem lies with how frail it is honestly and the need to protect first turn to outspeed a lot of things kinda limits it at times. cress being popular atm doesn't help it, which is sad when you consider that something with 75 base spa can ohko you. i think it's pretty anti-meta but definitely has problems getting in and KOing stuff off the bat so B- is fitting for it.

i agree with terrakion, but i'll discuss it with other folks a little more before moving it.

 

[Ksh13]

Okay, just going to give my opinion on some of the things happening here, and nominating a few things myself.

Mega Salamence to S
I feel like this actually might work. Tbh I find it to be like A++/S-. It has more versatility than Kangaskhan, but it has those weaknesses. Kangakshan is so good because it has a enormous damage output, one weakness only, and plenty of bulk. Mence does not have one weakness only, it has 4 weaknesses and one is 4x super effective. To break it down in a comparison against Kangaskhan, the pros of Mence is more versatility with physical, special, or mixed sets being all very good. The con is more weaknesses. You could also say more specific teambuilding, as Clefairy is the clearly best partner for it, and you do indeed really want Cleff ppaired up with it. Kang does not need any specific Pokemon around it. What Kangaskhan needs of team support, often comes naturaly in a team, or can come from one of several Pokemon that are really good anyways.

(Just going to say a bit about Clef+Mence) Clefairy is definetly the best partner for Mence. Redirection support lets it easily get up a D-Dance, or just deal damage straight away. Friend Guard gives Mence more bulk added upon its natural, solid bulk. This leaves it with really good bulk, enabling it to easier take things like Rock Slide and HP Ice. Ice Beam is more of a challenge to survive, but from more bulky Pokemon like Suicune, you will mostly survive it. The thing outside of Friend Guard that makes Clefairy (and Clefable I suppose) a better choice over other redirection Pokemon, is that they are not weak to any of Salamence's weaknesses. Amoonguss and Togekiss are weak to Ice, and Volcarona is weak to Rock (so is Togekiss). Clefairy is not mandatory when you are running MegaMence, it can work quite well without it. Although, if it fits your team, just go for it. It is the best option to use, so why not go with the best.

As earlier stated, I am kind of on the fence about Mence to S. I kind of feel like it has to prove a bit more in tournaments maybe. I honestly need to try and use it a bit more myself. I don't mind if we let it stay in S, if we change our minds it is just to copypaste it into A+ in the OP and remove it from S.

Talonflame to A-
Thank god this finally happened. Talonflame is not really to good anymore imo. I have already said quite a bit about Talon, so I'll just qoute my post from the previous page:

Talonflame could also easily drop to A rank. It is indeed true that the appearance of bulky waters and Landorus-T in the VGC 15 metagame has hurt it. With Intimidates and Scalds and Rock Slides all around the block, it has a tough time getting to do much. It does have priority Tailwind, but there is way better Tailwind setters out there, like Zapdos, Togekiss, and Suicune. Bulky Pokemon are better as they won't just get a Fake Out+super effective hit to get them sent straight out turn one. It does still have a rather powerful priority Brave Bird, which is really nice to deal with Conkeldurr and Mega Venusaur. But then you find out, Adamant Mega Mence does that even better with Return, which has no recoil. Talonflame can also pack a variaty of different moves, like WoW, Quick Guard, and Taunt to suit slightly different roles. Gale Wings BB and some variation in its sets makes Talonflame A, but the trends of VGC 15 compared to 14 makes it drop below A+.

Nominating Rotom-W to A
And now for the nominees, comes Rotom-W. As a bulky Water, I gotta say I don't feel like it is on par with Suicune. It mostly wants to run WoW, but then it has no sort of speed control. Not-so-offensive bulky waters are kind of supposed to have it in some fashion I feel in this metagame. Rotom-W also has the disadvantage of not always having room for an Ice-type move, which also is one of the main things bulky waters got going for them in this metagame. You could try and run it offensive, but for an offensive Rotom, Rotom-H fits the bill better. It does not get too much usage either. I must say, that Will-O-Wisp is good, but I just feel like WoW isn't that common to use. Burns rather come from Scald nowadays. i am not saying WoW is bad, it is just not amazing in this metagame imo. It's just not on par with the other A+ mons I feel, and that's why it should move down.

Nominating Chandelure to B-
What good can Chandelure even do? Sure, it's decent for TR, but it is not that good of a TR sweeper anywyas. I just feel like there is currently no reason to use it. It has a high damage output and all, but the list of things that shits on it is too long. It is weak to Rock Slide and eq, so Lando-T doesn't really care too much for it. Hydreigon is possibly the mon that is best at crushing Chandelures dreams, resisting both STAB's and hitting it with Dark Pulse. It's also weak to Water, and although it has Energy Ball, it mostly 3HKO's a Suicune with Sitrus, and Scald+some damage from a random spread move or somethign=Chandelure gone. It does have one positive trait with Flash Fire, but Heatran is a better option for that. I just don't see how you would justify having it over another solid Fire-type like Heatran, or Mega Camerupt for TR (Even though Heatran can also be used in TR).

Other than that I think a lot of the changes are fine, there is always more that could be done lower in the rankings, but I won't take that now.

 

[tofucocoa]

i think im a little biased when i suggest mega gardevoir for b+ or above, but its greater utility than sylveon ( trick room, encore, STAB psychic) with better speed lends it to the same mentality that megazard-y has which is spam spread moves with a team that is designed to protect it. also, its a pretty princess.......!

i think mega metagross could move down to A. aegislash, heatran, bisharp, arcanine... when megagross gets shut down, it gets shut down hard.

 

[TheMantyke]

I deleted the last few posts here. Please make sure your backing up your claims with actual experience either having played with, gone against, or seen the Pokemon in use. Theorymon only goes so far and can fall flat. Especially if the Pokemon you're theorymonning isn't legal in VGC...

 

[ProjectTitan313]

i think im a little biased when i suggest mega gardevoir for b+ or above, but its greater utility than sylveon ( trick room, encore, STAB psychic) with better speed lends it to the same mentality that megazard-y has which is spam spread moves with a team that is designed to protect it. also, its a pretty princess.......!

i think mega metagross could move down to A. aegislash, heatran, bisharp, arcanine... when megagross gets shut down, it gets shut down hard.

At the same time though, MegaGross is fighting pretty hard for a Top 3 Mega slot. Khan's the queen of the chess board, MegaMence is (imo) the #2 at worst, and between Char-Y and MegaGross it's a hard call to say which is #3.
MegaGross does *much* better against Khan / Mence than Char-Y, and its nice movepool lets you really customize what you want to beat, with the SubProtect set shitting on Khan and a lot of things slower than 110 Speed, Ice Punch to smite Landog and Mence, EQ to maim Aegislash / Heatran, Hammer Arm for Heatran / Khan, etc. And from BS doubles / KC VGC regionals, it's pretty popular and you never really know what it's going to fuck over until 1) you've got a mangled corpse on your side of the field or 2) you fire a King's Shield / Protect to see what it does, which might just be a free Sub or switch.

Obviously, it can't run Iron Head / Protect / Sub / Zen Headbutt / Bullet Punch / Ice Punch / Grass Knot / EQ all at once, but damn that thing is good pressure and, at times, really good bait & kill. I'd keep it tied with Char-Y, it's a tie for the Top 3 mega in 2015. I'm a huge Char-Y guy so this isn't a bias thing. Yeah it gets stomped hard by Aegislash / Heatran / Char-Y 90% of the time but Char-Y gets stomped by Terrakion / Scarf Landog / Khan / etc. 99% of the time. I'd keep MegaGross at A+, that thing has earned my respect in a way very few others have.

 

[Xanda]

Tbh if charizard is a little damaged it gets KOed by a zen headbutt.

 

[Ksh13]

i think im a little biased when i suggest mega gardevoir for b+ or above, but its greater utility than sylveon ( trick room, encore, STAB psychic) with better speed lends it to the same mentality that megazard-y has which is spam spread moves with a team that is designed to protect it. also, its a pretty princess.......!

i think mega metagross could move down to A. aegislash, heatran, bisharp, arcanine... when megagross gets shut down, it gets shut down hard.

Seconding Metagross to A. It was overhyped, like really overhyped, after Winter Regionals. It does not see that much usage anymore, and that is because it is not that great. There was actually a reason it had so little usage before regionals. FWG cores are really popular, and two of the parts in that type of core (Fire and Water), beats it. I mean, bulky waters don't check it consistently, but Gross doesn't have anything to hit them with, and Scald burns are its bane. It also gets walled by Steel-types and kinda by Fire-types, and all teams have at least one of those typings to deal with Fairy-types (it even walls itself, lol).

Suicune A+ ----> A
So, Suicune is imo one of those mons that are starting to fall out of the metagame as it has developed. It is still good, but not thaaaat good. It offers Tailwind, but offensively I find Milotic to be a better choice, with Competitive and all that stuff. It is one of the best Tailwind setters, but it is far from the only one. Zapdos, Togekiss, Talonflame, and even Latios make good Tailwind setters. It is also very predictible in terms of moveset, the only thing that honestly variates is Snarl or Protect. If you don't get lucky with Scald burns, you won't really do that much damage to anything with Scald either. Taunt honestly makes it look like a pile of sh*t too. However, Suicune is still really good, I am not going to try and say anything against that. Just saying that I don't feel like it is A+ material anymore.

 

[ProtoSoul]

I agree with M-Gard to B+. Its support move pool is incredible packing Ally Switch, Icy Wind, Heal Pulse, Imprison, Magic Coat, Skill Swap, Will-O-Wisp, and Trick Room. M-Gard also gets the combination of Pixilate + Hyper Voice and STAB Psychic meaning Poison types who could otherwise wall fairy spam can't come in on Gard. The main thing that holds it back is that 65 base defense (85 attack, really GF?). In order to come in against physical attackers Gard needs a free switch in, whether it being a slow U-Turn/Volt Switch or from an ally being KO'd. Even with HP Ground Gard also can't take on common Steel types such as Aegi (34.7 - 41.9%) and M-Gross (49 - 58%) also Gard can't get an guaranteed OKHO on Tran (93.9 - 113.2% assuming no bulk). It's not A since it needs some team support to shine but needs less than the rest of the 'mons in B.

 

[Xanda]

Seconding Metagross to A. It was overhyped, like really overhyped, after Winter Regionals. It does not see that much usage anymore, and that is because it is not that great. There was actually a reason it had so little usage before regionals. FWG cores are really popular, and two of the parts in that type of core (Fire and Water), beats it. I mean, bulky waters don't check it consistently, but Gross doesn't have anything to hit them with, and Scald burns are its bane. It also gets walled by Steel-types and kinda by Fire-types, and all teams have at least one of those typings to deal with Fairy-types (it even walls itself, lol).

No bulky water likes to take a zen headbutt and these bulky water can only hope for a scald burn. Meanwhile they can straght out kill mega Salamence with ice beam, so? The only true good checks to Metagross are Heatran, Aegislash and Bisharp (it still takes almost half HP with an Iron Head).

PS. yes, I'm biased, but i still didn't see a good reason except for bulky water can wall it (thing not true).

 

[Ksh13]

No bulky water likes to take a zen headbutt and these bulky water can only hope for a scald burn. Meanwhile they can straght out kill mega Salamence with ice beam, so? The only true good checks to Metagross are Heatran, Aegislash and Bisharp (it still takes almost half HP with an Iron Head).

PS. yes, I'm biased, but i still didn't see a good reason except for bulky water can wall it (thing not true).

Well, saying they like taking it would be stretching it a bit far, but it's not that much of an issue:
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 44 Def Rotom-W: 90-106 (57.3 - 67.5%) -- 50% chance to 2HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery -Survives and gets of WoW
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 100+ Def Suicune: 73-87 (35.2 - 42%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery -Basically a 4HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 82-97 (40.5 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery --Okay, Milotic has some trouble, but if it gets a Competitive boost:
+2 4 SpA Milotic Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Metagross: 84-100 (53.8 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-Not saying it always will, but hey, Landog is pretty common tbh
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Swampert: 106-126 (51.2 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-Okay, but Swampert hits hard in return:
228+ SpA Expert Belt Swampert Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Metagross: 139-166 (89.1 - 106.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
-Earth Power+some spread stuff like Rock Slide=Most often a KO

Bulky Aracine also destroys it. Metagross is by no means bad, but I don't see it as A+ material anymore.

 

[Synral]

metagross just doesn't fit as well in every team as something like kangaskhan does. rain is honestly the best home for it because it negates the fire weakness rain threatens landorus-t, heatran, and ludicolo is pretty much a full stop vs most bulky waters

the sucky thing about m-meta though is no matter what 4th move you run on it (assuming iron head, zen headbutt, and protect) you're getting hardwalled by something on the opposing side. usually aegislash.

 

[Solarman64]

Nominating: Rotom-Heat A- -> A
Rotom`s unique Fire/Elec typing allows it to patch up many team synergy issues with relative ease. Its typing brings 8 resistances and 1 immunity all of these (minus bug) are fairly common types used in the VGC environment. However, Rotom is unfortunately weak to 2 also common types as well, water and rock. This should not a major issues as most teams are prepared to deal with these types due to their frequency. Its speed is interesting at base 87 allowing it to out run things like Bisharp and Breloom but be slower than Lando and base 100`s. 50/107/107 is reasonably bulky allowing it to make use of its great typing fairly well. This bulk also allows it to spread Twaves and Wows with relative ease. On the offensive side of things, Rotom has a decent base 105 spatk that can be amplified through the use of an item like life orb. Fire coverage is always great for common mons such as Amoonguss, Aegislash, and Metagross. Electric coverage is a nice tool to have against mons such as Talonflame, Charizard, and Togeikiss. It can even run Hp ice with a life orb to get ko`es on Salamence and Lando. With its ability to patch up team weakness easily through its unique typing and good stats, Rotom-Heat is a consistent (ok it does use wow and overheat so not 100% consistent) mon that can function well in any level of VGC play.

 

[Dorian06]

Nominating Mega Kangaskhan S ---> S+
This by far the best thing in the game. It is obviously way above anything in the meta, and it can fit onto almost any team. If you don't have 2/3 counters to it, you are going to have a rough event. It can provide so much offensive pressure, with Fake Out, the threat of PuP, and you always have to be aware of the threat of it just using a STAB for massive damage. I don't think Landorus, Salamence, or anything in this format is a dominant as Kangaskhan.

 

[Ksh13]

Nominating Mega Kangaskhan S ---> S+
This by far the best thing in the game. It is obviously way above anything in the meta, and it can fit onto almost any team. If you don't have 2/3 counters to it, you are going to have a rough event. It can provide so much offensive pressure, with Fake Out, the threat of PuP, and you always have to be aware of the threat of it just using a STAB for massive damage. I don't think Landorus, Salamence, or anything in this format is a dominant as Kangaskhan.

Yes, Mega Kang is powerful. But we don't have an S+ rank, and I don't think we'll have one either just for Kang. I would not say it is way above Mega Salamence, just a bit. Having things to check it is kind of mandatory in teambuilding, yes, but the metagame is currently in the way that carrying checks to it comes naturally. Intimidates are everywhere, and WoW from stuff like Rotom and Arcanine is a thing. Aegislash, bulky waters, Fighting-types like Terrakion and Scrafty, all threaten Kangaskhan. Personally I think it also is fair to put Kangakshan together with the other S mons. Mega Mence can suit many different roles, such as special (which atm is the most common), mixed, and physical. It can have some bulk investment and pack Roost, it can D-Dance up with ease thanks to Clefairy, or just hit hard as a truck right of the bat. It's firepower is a bit under Kangakshan, but again people can waste turns on crippling it physical attack when it turns out to be special. Kang is never special (Except some of those japanese bastards on the ladder). Landorus-T is S because it gives Intimidate, one of the fastest spread moves in the meta (actually two spread moves), and and it flinches stuf on a consistent basis (30 % chance, hits two Pokemon with Rock Slide every turn, 51% chance to flinch something if it hits both), and is the easiest Pokemon to fit into a team (both Kang and Mence reqiure mega slot), and basically doesn't need any specific team support. I think it is fine to have S things the way it is currently. Kangakshan is very good, but far from unstoppable.

 

[Xanda]

Yes, Mega Kang is powerful. But we don't have an S+ rank, and I don't think we'll have one either just for Kang. I would not say it is way above Mega Salamence, just a bit. Having things to check it is kind of mandatory in teambuilding, yes, but the metagame is currently in the way that carrying checks to it comes naturally. Intimidates are everywhere, and WoW from stuff like Rotom and Arcanine is a thing. Aegislash, bulky waters, Fighting-types like Terrakion and Scrafty, all threaten Kangaskhan. Personally I think it also is fair to put Kangakshan together with the other S mons. Mega Mence can suit many different roles, such as special (which atm is the most common), mixed, and physical. It can have some bulk investment and pack Roost, it can D-Dance up with ease thanks to Clefairy, or just hit hard as a truck right of the bat. It's firepower is a bit under Kangakshan, but again people can waste turns on crippling it physical attack when it turns out to be special. Kang is never special (Except some of those japanese bastards on the ladder). Landorus-T is S because it gives Intimidate, one of the fastest spread moves in the meta (actually two spread moves), and and it flinches stuf on a consistent basis (30 % chance, hits two Pokemon with Rock Slide every turn, 51% chance to flinch something if it hits both), and is the easiest Pokemon to fit into a team (both Kang and Mence reqiure mega slot), and basically doesn't need any specific team support. I think it is fine to have S things the way it is currently. Kangakshan is very good, but far from unstoppable.

And still Mega kanga can still win easily win 1v2, something that only lando with a lucky streak of flinch can do.

 

[Ksh13]

And still Mega kanga can still win easily win 1v2, something that only lando with a lucky streak of flinch can do.

Kang can't win all 1v2's, against Pokemon like Terrakion, Mawile, Aegislash with sub, anything with Will-O-Wisp, Kangaskhan lose no matter what the second Pokemon is. With Double-Edge it can also lose straight up because of recoil from taking down the first Pokemon and damage from the second. However, I will agree that Kang wins more 1v2's than Lando-T. Lando-T can't win that many 1v2's, but it wins some thanks to flinches, some without flinches. Special Mence with Hyper Voice can win many 1v2's, so that's that.

 

[Xanda]

Kang can't win all 1v2's, against Pokemon like Terrakion, Mawile, Aegislash with sub, anything with Will-O-Wisp, Kangaskhan lose no matter what the second Pokemon is. With Double-Edge it can also lose straight up because of recoil from taking down the first Pokemon and damage from the second. However, I will agree that Kang wins more 1v2's than Lando-T. Lando-T can't win that many 1v2's, but it wins some thanks to flinches, some without flinches. Special Mence with Hyper Voice can win many 1v2's, so that's that.

I still haven't seen a special mega salamence do something like that because special mega salamence is just weak. Hyper voice does meaningful damage only to these weak (return and double edge do still a lot of damage even neutral). The real threat of salamence is its unpredictability.

 

[Dorian06]

Yes, Mega Kang is powerful. But we don't have an S+ rank, and I don't think we'll have one either just for Kang. I would not say it is way above Mega Salamence, just a bit. Having things to check it is kind of mandatory in teambuilding, yes, but the metagame is currently in the way that carrying checks to it comes naturally. Intimidates are everywhere, and WoW from stuff like Rotom and Arcanine is a thing. Aegislash, bulky waters, Fighting-types like Terrakion and Scrafty, all threaten Kangaskhan. Personally I think it also is fair to put Kangakshan together with the other S mons. Mega Mence can suit many different roles, such as special (which atm is the most common), mixed, and physical. It can have some bulk investment and pack Roost, it can D-Dance up with ease thanks to Clefairy, or just hit hard as a truck right of the bat. It's firepower is a bit under Kangakshan, but again people can waste turns on crippling it physical attack when it turns out to be special. Kang is never special (Except some of those japanese bastards on the ladder). Landorus-T is S because it gives Intimidate, one of the fastest spread moves in the meta (actually two spread moves), and and it flinches stuf on a consistent basis (30 % chance, hits two Pokemon with Rock Slide every turn, 51% chance to flinch something if it hits both), and is the easiest Pokemon to fit into a team (both Kang and Mence reqiure mega slot), and basically doesn't need any specific team support. I think it is fine to have S things the way it is currently. Kangakshan is very good, but far from unstoppable.

I'm not going to say Special Mega Salamence is weak, but it's mostly popular because of Japan Sand and that is one of the only teams it works on. Salamence and Landorus are both weak to the 2nd most common spread move in the game (Icy Wind) as Mence is also weak to Rock Slide. Landorus is crippled by intimidate, as Kangaskhan can Power Up Punch back to regular. Kangaskhan is clearly better than Landorus and Salamence and we should all know this. If you don't want to make a tier for it you could just move Landorus down to S-. Kangaskhan should be in it's own tier. It's too dominant. And I don't think physical sala is a thing anymore. Please look on battle spot/Actual tournaments. 90% of sala's are purely special, so the surprise factor is gone

 

[Ksh13]

I still haven't seen a special mega salamence do something like that because special mega salamence is just weak. Hyper voice does meaningful damage only to these weak (return and double edge do still a lot of damage even neutral). The real threat of salamence is its unpredictability.

Okay, so Hyper Voice Mence does maybe not win thaaaat many 1v2's. It all depends on matchup, and a Pokemon is not really supposed to win a 1v2. Also, I never stated that its ability to win 1v2's made it S rank, its unpredictability is one of the main selling points indeed.

I'm not going to say Special Mega Salamence is weak, but it's mostly popular because of Japan Sand and that is one of the only teams it works on. Salamence and Landorus are both weak to the 2nd most common spread move in the game (Icy Wind) as Mence is also weak to Rock Slide. Landorus is crippled by intimidate, as Kangaskhan can Power Up Punch back to regular. Kangaskhan is clearly better than Landorus and Salamence and we should all know this. If you don't want to make a tier for it you could just move Landorus down to S-. Kangaskhan should be in it's own tier. It's too dominant. And I don't think physical sala is a thing anymore. Please look on battle spot/Actual tournaments. 90% of sala's are purely special, so the surprise factor is gone

First of, where did you find statistics stating that Icy Wind is the second most common spread move? I can't say I know you are wrong, but I am honestly quite sure the two most common are Rock Slide and Hyper Voice. I don't see Icy Wind be used much at all actually. I'm more conserned about Ice Beam honestly. Yeah, Special Mence is best in Japan Sand, but I do believe we put Salamence into S because of the D-Dance set paired up with Clefairy. So if we should talk about why Mega Mence is S, that is honestly the set we should be talking about most of the time, and just keep in mind that it has other viable sets too. Rock Slide is a problem, yes, but not that big of a problem since Mega Salamence has base 130 Defense:

Only gonna calc Lando-T's Rock Slide since it is the most common
252+ Atk Landorus-T Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 62-74 (36.2 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Not factoring Intimidate from Mence)
252+ Atk Landorus-T Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 46-55 (26.9 - 32.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO (This is factoring Friend Guard from Clefairy, and not Intimidate)
-1 252+ Atk Landorus-T Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 42-50 (24.5 - 29.2%) -- 99.2% chance to 4HKO (Now factoring Intimidate)
-1 252+ Atk Landorus-T Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 31-37 (18.1 - 21.6%) -- possible 5HKO (Factoring Intimidate and Friend Guard, a scenario like this could actually easily happen)

Not really feeling like writing an essay about Mence in S since it has gotten some discussion lately, but I can explain further why I think it is almost on par with Kang tomorrow if you need me to.

Now a bit about Lando-T. Yes, it as well as Mence has that dang weakness to Ice. Therefore everyone has Ice stuff to deal with them. Wow, a Pokemon has a way it can easily be beat, impressive. No, everything has it's checks and checks for the most common Pokemon are on all teams. You also bring up how Landorus-T suffers from Intimidate. Okay, then U-Turn out. If you are choiced into something else, you can also just switch it out manually. Kang does yes match up a little bit better than Lando with Intimidate, but that does not stop Landorus-T from flinching though. Kang is just not a threat when its Attack has been crippled to the point where PuP barely helps, while Lando-T can just keep on flinching shit with Rock Slide. Landoge's typing is also really cool, providing it with two immunities and only two weaknesses. Those two weaknesses can also often come form the same Pokemon (With the exception of HP Ice from stuff like Thundurus and Heatran). It also has some versatility. Scarf is by far the most common, but stuff like AV, Band, Sash, and even Yache is viable. It also has not too shabby bulk, and can easily be EV's to survive a number of hard hitting moves. The AV set is also not that scared of Ice Beam. However, I do see that Kangaskhan is more of a threat than Lando-T, and that Landoge might deserve S-, but last time this was discussed we came to the conclusion that it would be stupid to divide a rank with so few in it. But with Mence now in S, it would maybe not look completely stupid to have S- for Lando-T.

I don't really feel like there is too much to say about Kang itself, we all know how powerful it is and the fact that PuP makes it able to ignore Intimidate. I feel like this discussion is more about if we think the others in S are on par with Kang.

To conclude this, I do sort of agree that Landorus-T is slightly below Kang, and if we had an S- rank it would have been there instead. But Mega Salamence is imo right about on par with Kang. I also don't think physical Mence has stopped being good. People are just hyped for the special/mixed set atm. The physical set will come back some day.

 

[Synral]

the thing about kangaskhan is that everything that checks it will check it almost regardless of what set it's running. terrakion will outspeed and ohko with close combat, aegislash will always be immune or resistant to most of the set, barring the sucker punch that doesn't hurt it much in shield form, and intimidate will always be a hindrance to it

the beautiful thing about mence is that depending on its set, its checks and counters are different. while aegislash typically walls DDmence because it opts for mono-attacking with return a lot of the time, it gets 2ko'd by the special set's fire blast. if amoonguss comes in at full health thinking it can tank a hyper voice after seeing it, it risks getting ohko'd by double edge. heatran walls the standard special set's dragon/fire/flying coverage, but then loses out to the physical mences that carry EQ. in the mence mirror match, dragon pulse only has a 25% chance of ohkoing 4/0 mence, but draco meteor can ohko.

and obviously, mence has the option to be unaffected by intimidate if it so chooses.

this isn't to discredit kangaskhan. while kangaskhan's coverage is going to be virtually the same regardless of the set (i know some japanese players favor ice punch) the difference in double edge/fake out/low kick and protect/return/pup is actually so huge, especially on the turns where you play around the wrong move (protecting vs a fake out that isn't there or doubling into kang's protect) so kangaskhan does have a small, albeit relevant element of surprise to play with, it just doesn't get to pick and choose what beats it by virtue of having a huge movepool and good offensive stats from both ends of the spectrum like mence does

 

[Xanda]

the thing about kangaskhan is that everything that checks it will check it almost regardless of what set it's running. terrakion will outspeed and ohko with close combat, aegislash will always be immune or resistant to most of the set, barring the sucker punch that doesn't hurt it much in shield form, and intimidate will always be a hindrance to it

the beautiful thing about mence is that depending on its set, its checks and counters are different. while aegislash typically walls DDmence because it opts for mono-attacking with return a lot of the time, it gets 2ko'd by the special set's fire blast. if amoonguss comes in at full health thinking it can tank a hyper voice after seeing it, it risks getting ohko'd by double edge. heatran walls the standard special set's dragon/fire/flying coverage, but then loses out to the physical mences that carry EQ. in the mence mirror match, dragon pulse only has a 25% chance of ohkoing 4/0 mence, but draco meteor can ohko.

and obviously, mence has the option to be unaffected by intimidate if it so chooses.

Rotom (especially H), thundurus and zapdos will always check pretty easily salamence and then proceed to OHKO or cripple it then there are the others you mentioned. Tbh i don't really think salamence deserves to be S, imho people are just too paranoid when facing him.
Kang on the other hand is surpringly random. You can't never know if he has fake out or protect, low kick or PuP, return or DE (sometimes even ice punch instead of sucker punch). Every move she can have forces you to play differently (if she has PuP and setup you basically won/lost the game). Basically only ghost with WoW are a good way to stop Kanga

 

[Synral]

your description of kangaskhan is just my post but reworded

"only ghosts with wow" really just kinda ignores most common intimidate users, conkeldurr, terrakion, and aegislash.

i wasn't saying kangaskhan was bad, or that it lacked the ability to surprise with pup v fake out, my point was that regardless of what set it runs it's still threatened by the same stuff whereas mence has an easier time adjusting matchups.

i also didn't say mence can't be countered, but the sheer versatility it has allows it to threaten would be counters of other mence builds.

 

[Xanda]

What i meant with ghosts with WoW mean that they are the only one that will totally wall kanga, the others you mentioned will still take a beating.
Salamence is always walled by something (usually very common), depending on what he runs. Kangaskhan has almost always ways to beat her counters.

And don't forget the neat fact of breaking sashes, an incredibly good thing that few pokemons have.