VGC VGC '16 Trick Room

[rcade216]

I have not done much with the VGC '16 format. I built this team and so far on Showdown I am like 5-7 and on Random Battle Rated Special I am 3-5.

The team just seems to lack power and coverage. I was told on Showdown that I lack Flamethrower, I think more to the point a fire attack. However, being as Kyogre is one of my attackers, fire is not going to work.

Dialga @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Pressure
Level: 50
EVs: 244 HP / 76 Def / 124 SpA / 60 SpD / 4 Spe
Quiet Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Flash Cannon
- Flamethrower
- Trick Room

The changes I made were, held item, EV spread, and move-set. I decided to drop Protect from the move-set, just to keep Flamethrower. I feel that if I need to Protect, a switch may be the best option, if I can switch.

I also was not able to find a Modest Dialga. I am still searching and have until Friday.

Kyogre-Primal @ Blue Orb
Ability: Primordial Sea
Level: 50
EVs: 188 HP / 204 Def / 76 SpA / 4 SpD / 36 Spe
Modest Nature
- Water Spout
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Protect

Changes made, Nature, move-set, and EV spread. Although I am hesitant to put speed EVs on a Trick Room Pokémon, from talking with people Trick Room is not always about being the slowest, but being slower against something that is weak to you. I removed Origin Pulse for Scald. I was thinking about this during the initial build. I figured if I am going to have two Water attacks, one might as well be able to cripple a physical attacker.

Cresselia (F) @ Mental Herb
Ability: Levitate
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 60 Def / 196 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 1 Spe
- Trick Room
- Ice Beam
- Helping Hand
- Skill Swap

Change to Nature, EVs, and move-set. Here again in my initial build I think I was switching between Moonblast and Psychock. I like Psychock purely for the Poison type counter, but in this META the only Poison type I may see is Amoongus. I think before I was also using Cresselia more as a wall setter, Reflect/Light Screen. The new move-set allows for Cressellia to set TR and then help keep Rain as the dominant weather.

Kangaskhan-Mega (F) @ Kangaskhanite
Ability: Inner Focus
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Double-Edge
- Sucker Punch
- Low Kick

New add. I originally had Mega Lopunny, which I only wanted to use M-Lopunny as a way to Fake Out M-Kangaskhan. Although more Kangaskhan are running Inner Focus now, not all wait to mega evolve. With this build I can still Fake Out and mega evolve on turn 2 and hopefully have TR setup. And while I would like to stay away from the Top 6 Pokémon, if you can't beat them, join them. haha

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 196 Atk / 60 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Power Whip
- Leech Seed
- Protect

Change of Nature and EVs. Ferrothorn has always been a favorite of mine, but I never really had a chance to use him because my teams were already pushing the heavy Fire weak limit. So with this VGC '16 Ferrothorn becomes a great counter to Xerneas and Kyogre. Kangaskhan don't like to Fake Out, so it helps with predicting. Also with or without TR Ferrothorn can be slow and still perform.

Talonflame @ Life Orb
Ability: Gale Wings
Level: 50
EVs: 44 HP / 252 Atk / 36 Def / 4 SpD / 172 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- Tailwind
- Quick Guard

New add. Talonflame gives me a chance to change speeds. As my team is now more borderline speed wise. With, I think, only a few slow Pokémon in this META I can Tailwind to be faster instead of trying to hope I am slower. While my Talonflame is slower than most Talonflames, I think this works in and out of TR with other Talonflames on the field.



Again my Legends are not ideal. I was unable to find a Modest Dialga. My Modest Kyogre has 12 SPD IVs. Not bad, but I think I miss out on 5 points of speed outside of TR.

 

[Draconid997]

(First rate as an official team rater)

This is a great team :)
There are a couple of things i would like to suggest for each pokemon. Since you have mentioned that you want to move away from the full TR mode a little, i will focus my suggestions accordingly:

Top 4 Matchup pokemon in italics will only fully check a threat when used together
Xerneas - 2 Checks (Ferrothorn/Whimsicott)
Primal Groudon - 1 Check (Kyogre+Cresselia - if you add skill swap)
Primal Kyogre - 2 Checks (Dialga/Ferrothorn)
Rayquaza - 2 Checks (Dialga/Ferrothorn)

Dialga

So a lot of recent successful Dialga/Kyogre teams have been running modest dialga so that it can function both inside and outside of trick room. All of Wolfe Glick, Conan Thompson and Alex Underhill's teams have recently top cut several regionals around america with modest dialga so i think it would be worth a shot especially if you're thinking of moving away from trick room.

Sample Set:

Dialga @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Pressure / Telepathy (event only, i'm unsure about viability on showdown)
Level: 50
EVs: 244 HP / 76 Def / 124 SpA / 60 SpD / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Flamethrower / Flash Cannon
- Trick Room
- Protect

Surprisingly, dialga doesn't need shuca berry to survive big hits from primal groudon. You also mentioned about using a fire type attack, and this is where i would recommend you put it, since dialga's excellent typing gives it a great matchup against steel type targets. 244 HP means that at lv 50 dialga gets an even number HP stat which maximises sitrus berry recovery. This is what the EVs do:

• 252 SpA Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Draco Meteor vs. 244 HP / 60 SpD Dialga: 173-204 (83.9 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery
• 252 Atk Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 244 HP / 76 Def Dialga: 68-81 (33 - 39.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery
• 252 SpA Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Earth Power vs. 244 HP / 60 SpD Dialga: 161-190 (78.1 - 92.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery
• 252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 244 HP / 76 Def Dialga: 170-204 (82.5 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery
• 252+ SpA Primal Groudon Earth Power vs. 244 HP / 60 SpD Dialga: 176-210 (85.4 - 101.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
• 252+ SpA Primal Groudon Eruption (150 BP) vs. 244 HP / 60 SpD Dialga in Harsh Sun: 165-195 (80 - 94.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery
• 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 244 HP / 76 Def Dialga: 178-212 (86.4 - 102.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery

Kyogre

There are a number of things you could do here. If you want to keep running your current set (i.e with cresselia) then that's completely fine, however if you want to move further away from full TR, then a modest set could also work fine here. Wolfe Glick's 1st Place Florida Team used modest kyogre/dialga with ferrothorn and double genies, so using a modest kyogre set would be better with an alternative speed control user to cresselia, such as talonflame, thundurus or crobat, which i will explain later

Sample Set:

Kyogre-Primal @ Blue Orb
Ability: Primordial Sea
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 116 Def / 76 SpA / 60 SpD / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
- Water Spout
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Protect

This is a pretty defensively biased kyogre spread, but it will still do a tonne of damage with its current investment for when you are both inside and outside TR. Water spout is for big spread damage at full health and scald is for bypassing wide guard and the inevitable burn chance. Here are what the EVs do:

• 76+ SpA Primal Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Kangaskhan in Heavy Rain: 184-217 (101.6 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
• 252+ Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 116 Def Primal Kyogre: 174-206 (84 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• +2 252 SpA Xerneas Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 60 SpD Primal Kyogre: 176-208 (85 - 100.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
• +2 252+ SpA Xerneas Thunder vs. 252 HP / 60 SpD Primal Kyogre: 178-210 (85.9 - 101.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Cresselia

Cresselia is a brilliant choice for this team. However, i would strongly recommend dropping moonblast for skill swap. This will give you a much better chance versus primal groudon, as using skill swap on kyogre will not only mean that kyogre will be immune to groudon's STABs, but primordial sea will activate which means you have a better weather war matchup.

Sample Set:

Cresselia (F) @ Mental Herb
Ability: Levitate
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 60 Def / 196 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 8 Spe
- Trick Room
- Ice Beam
- Helping Hand
- Skill Swap

252 HP / 60 Def / 196 SpD is smogon's new recommended spread for mental herb spread, which i completely agree with. These EVs will survive 3 dazzling gleams from any xerneas which is a great perk. 8 speed IVs will give you the edge when facing opposing groudon+cresselia, since you will be slower than most opposing cresselia in TR conditions and will be able to skill swap onto kyogre safely to reset the weather so that the weather war is more achievable.

Other Options:

As with Wolfe Glick's team, speed control users that speed you up or slow the opponent down can work well here, so as mentioned, thundurus/talonflame/crobat will work well in this spot if you don't want to focus on TR.

(Sets)

Thundurus (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Prankster
Level: 50
EVs: 36 HP / 220 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Protect / Swagger
- Thunder Wave
- Taunt

- HP stat minimises life orb recoil (10n-1)
- Handles Primal Kyogre

Talonflame @ Life Orb
Ability: Gale Wings
Level: 50
EVs: 44 HP / 252 Atk / 36 Def / 4 SpD / 172 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- Tailwind
- Quick Guard

- Survives talonflame's brave bird from full HP, outspeeds it in TR
- 10n-1 HP stat
- Outspeeds mega kangaskhan
- Carries a fire move
- Handles Primal Groudon / Xerneas well

Crobat @ Lum Berry
Ability: Inner Focus
Level: 50
EVs: 68 HP / 188 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Super Fang
- Haze
- Tailwind
- Quick Guard

- survives moonblast from +2 xerneas
- survives 3 moonblasts from non-boosted modest xerneas
- survives double-edge from kangaskhan most of the time
- Handles xerneas

Lopunny -> Mega Kangaskhan

I would strongly recommend you make the switch here. Firstly, there's no need to worry about kangaskhan's fake out being faster than you, since you can stay in non-mega form and retain the inner focus ability so that you can fake out nonetheless. Mega Kangaskhan can also provide a great form of offence whilst under Trick Room or Tailwind with its parental bond boosted attacks.

Sample Set:

Kangaskhan-Mega (F) @ Kangaskhanite
Ability: Inner Focus
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Double-Edge
- Sucker Punch
- Low Kick

There's no real need to optimise this bulky spread, since it does everything that it needs to do. An adamant nature helps it maximise offensive presence whilst it is under TR conditions, there's not much else i need to say here in terms of spreads and move choices etc since it's all pretty simple.

Ferrothorn

Ferrothorn is another great choice for this team, so i would like to just suggest a slightly more optimised EV spread created by Jibaku.

Sample Set:

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 196 Atk / 60 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Power Whip
- Leech Seed
- Protect

This spread is relatively simple. It will guarantee that you OHKO xerneas once it has set up whilst maximising special defence for absorbing special attacks etc.

Whimsicott -> Primal Groudon Check

Your team already has a decent matchup against xerneas, primal kyogre and mega rayquaza, so i would recommend using something that can check primal groudon in this slot over whimsicott as primal groudon . The best switches i can recommend here are to either talonflame or salamence. Talonflame will help you with a fast mode and provides priority offence even when under trick room which can be very useful. It also alleviates the team's weakness to xerneas a little (my recommended spread is under other options for cresselia) and provides fire STAB. Salamence can check primal groudon more easily than talonflame, and can also provide intimidate support and can support the team further against mega rayquaza. Unfortunately this switch would make the team weaker to xerneas. I would recommend trying out both on SD! and seeing who you like best.

Sample Set:

Salamence-Mega @ Salamencite
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 50
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Double-Edge
- Draco Meteor
- Hyper Voice / Fire Blast
- Protect

Very standard set, the set focuses on offence and will provide great coverage against many common threats including the stated mons.

So that's the rate, hope i helped :)

 

[iPRODiGY VGC]

Nice. Draconid997 beat me to it. Also congrats on becoming an official rater! My main point was going to be switching Loppunny to Kangaskhan. The 8 speed IVs Cress is something I've been messing around with for a while.

 

[rcade216]

Thanks for the info. I will have to make changes on SD and try it out.

The only reason I mentioned getting away from Trick Room, I feel like it takes too much to setup. With Lopunny I usually always get a TR setup, but it just feels I cannot do the damage with Kyogre and Dialga that I thought they would do.

I am not sure why my damage output is so low, other than move type. It seems like I take a lot of damage while my opponent takes very little.

I'm not sure if I have really terrible luck and always on the low side of the damage potential or I am just not investing enough into SP.ATK. .

It also seems like more people are running a faster Groudon. The builds I have seen go slower to insure the Desolate Land activation.

I only have roughly 25 battles with the team. I have always wanted a Trick Room team that can succeed, but I always get away from it when I am constantly being defeated by teams that just go flat out Hyper Offense. While it takes a turn to setup Trick Room, I am already about half KO'd or the opponent knows to double up on a TR setter.

Cresselia I think is the dead giveaway for TR. Lopunny is not as productive as I thought it would be. Lopunny does its Fake Out job well, but is usually stopped by Protect, which either way helps get TR set, but then Lopunny is dead weight after that.


With my EV investment Kangaskhan-M should not be doing more than 99% damage with Low Kick to my Dialga.

More practice and options to try.

Thanks again.

 

[Pyritie]

So a lot of recent successful Dialga/Kyogre teams have been running modest dialga so that it can function both inside and outside of trick room. All of Wolfe Glick, Conan Thompson and Alex Underhill's teams have recently top cut several regionals around america with modest dialga so i think it would be worth a shot especially if you're thinking of moving away from trick room.

It's worth mentioning that they could be running modest because that's the only nature you can use with Telepathy.

 

[rcade216]

I updated my original post with changes that I have made to the team. I was not able to get the Kyogre and Dialga I wanted, but the Kyogre still works as a Modest nature. Cresselia was a nice catch by my son. 31/28/31/30/31/1 - Sassy Nature, as compared to mine which was Calm 31/8/31/14/31/8.

In the process I have been helping my son design his team. Again the Legends are not idea. He also wanted a Thundurus on his team, but as luck would have it, a shiny Thundurus appeared and it was the wrong Nature and IVs not very friendly, but he kept it anyway.

His team he wanted to go speed, but then decided to mix in Trick Room as well. He is kind of my complete opposite in Pokémon. I would like to go slow and abuse Trick Room, and He wants fast and flip Trick Room.

Groudon @ Red Orb
Nature: Jolly
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 HP / 198 Atk / 48 SpD / 12 Spe
Move-set:
- Precipice Blades
- Rock Slide
- Overheat
- Protect

My son started out SR to be fast, but then figured he may not out speed what he wants to, so if he can bluff, maybe he can surprise. At level 50 and no investment Primal Groudon hits 121 SPD, which ties with no investment Mewtwo, and is 1 point ahead of no investment base 100, like a M-Kangaskhan. Overheat seems odd, but it is meant as a one time thing. Rock Slide only because very few Groudon run Rock Slide anymore.

Palkia @ Haban Berry
Nature: Modest
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 236 HP / 36 Def / 80 SpA / 156 SpD
Move-set:
- Spacial Rend
- Earth Power
- Trick Room
- Protect

The berry I am thinking he needs to switch to Sitrus or Lustrous Orb. This Palkia is at 130 Speed. Again not ideal for TR, but my son wants to be able to switch speeds as needed. I think he needs to add another attack to the move-set. I like Power Gem, or Flamethrower/Thunderbolt.

Cresselia (F) @ Mental Herb
Ability: Levitate
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 60 Def / 196 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 1 Spe
- Trick Room
- Ice Beam
- Gravity
- Skill Swap

He is using pretty much the same Cresselia as I am. Except he switched out Helping Hand for Gravity.

Kangaskhan-Mega (F) @ Kangaskhanite
Ability: Inner Focus
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Double-Edge
- Sucker Punch
- Low Kick

Again the same Kangaskhan as I am using.

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 196 Atk / 60 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Power Whip
- Leech Seed
- Protect

Same as my Ferrothorn.

Talonflame @ Life Orb
Ability: Gale Wings
Level: 50
EVs: 44 HP / 252 Atk / 36 Def / 4 SpD / 172 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- Tailwind
- Quick Guard

Same as my Talonflame.


Again his Legends were caught with the idea of a speed team in mind. Then he decided to not EV Speed and try to mix as a TR bluff. He has the same speed control idea, Tailwind and Trick Room to change speeds.

 

[iPRODiGY VGC]

The Palkia Moveset is pretty standard for a TR setter. You'll need some kind of answer for Smeargle though.

Also, a few notes;

• I would definitely change the spread on Groudon. There's not a lot of reason to run that much investment into special attack if you're only special move is Overheat. It will already hit like a tank in the sun, and since 2 of your moves are Physical, I would give him some more Attack investment. Maybe a spread of 188 HP/200 Atk/12 Sp. Atk/108 Sp. Def/
• I'm curious on what you're Talonflame is EVd for, so if you could expand on that a bit that'd be great.

Anyways I like the team idea. Although I might consider changing out Palkia for Dialga, since he's a better check to more things in the Meta, and he can still set TR.

 

[rcade216]

The Palkia Moveset is pretty standard for a TR setter. You'll need some kind of answer for Smeargle though.

Also, a few notes;

• I would definitely change the spread on Groudon. There's not a lot of reason to run that much investment into special attack if you're only special move is Overheat. It will already hit like a tank in the sun, and since 2 of your moves are Physical, I would give him some more Attack investment. Maybe a spread of 188 HP/200 Atk/12 Sp. Atk/108 Sp. Def/
• I'm curious on what you're Talonflame is EVd for, so if you could expand on that a bit that'd be great.

Anyways I like the team idea. Although I might consider changing out Palkia for Dialga, since he's a better check to more things in the Meta, and he can still set TR.

I have to double check my son's Groudon. My original word document has a Quiet Groudon and he has a Jolly.

Yeah his actual Groudon has 252 HP / 198 ATK / 48 SP.DEF / 12 SPD

The Talonflame is the the build that Draconid997 posted.

Talonflame @ Life Orb
Ability: Gale Wings
Level: 50
EVs: 44 HP / 252 Atk / 36 Def / 4 SpD / 172 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- Tailwind
- Quick Guard

- Survives talonflame's brave bird from full HP, outspeeds it in TR
- 10n-1 HP stat
- Outspeeds mega kangaskhan
- Carries a fire move
- Handles Primal Groudon / Xerneas well

 

[iPRODiGY VGC]

I have to double check my son's Groudon. My original word document has a Quiet Groudon and he has a Jolly.

Yeah his actual Groudon has 252 HP / 198 ATK / 48 SP.DEF / 12 SPD

The Talonflame is the the build that Draconid997 posted.

Talonflame @ Life Orb
Ability: Gale Wings
Level: 50
EVs: 44 HP / 252 Atk / 36 Def / 4 SpD / 172 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- Tailwind
- Quick Guard

- Survives talonflame's brave bird from full HP, outspeeds it in TR
- 10n-1 HP stat
- Outspeeds mega kangaskhan
- Carries a fire move
- Handles Primal Groudon / Xerneas well

Ah well nevermind then. The only problem I could forsee then is a lack of any kind of Taunt option. Although once you get TR up that shouldn't be a huge problem.

 

[rcade216]

Ah well nevermind then. The only problem I could forsee then is a lack of any kind of Taunt option. Although once you get TR up that shouldn't be a huge problem.

I originally had a Whimsicott for priority Taunt. My son wanted Thundurus, but his Thundurus was shiny with the wrong nature and so-so IVs, and he kept it because it was shiny. smh

Smeargle though hits 208 speed I think when scarfed, so I am not sure there is a Taunt user that is fast enough to hit Smeargle without Prankster or being scarfed itself.

Edit: Aerodactyl and Crobat are.

 

[Draconid997]

Crobat with max speed is actually slower than scarf smeargle, crobats speed hits 200

To beat most (sash) smeargle, all you need is kangaskhan+talonflame/cresselia so taunt isnt needed since you can fake out smeargle on the first turn and set up TR/TW and then OHKO smeargle on the following turn. Haze crobat would be a good option to counter xerneas, but its up to you

I wouldnt recommend changing palkia for dialga since dialga cannot check primal groudon which is an important matchup that palkia needs to win

 

[rcade216]

The only problem I am having right now is that I cannot figure out which Smeargle is Spiky Shield and which is Dark Void.

Also Thunder Kyogre takes out my Kyogre.

Mienshao destroys my Ferrothorn.

I keep over thinking things.

And Xerneas with Dark Void/ Transform Smeargle sucks. haha

Flamethrower on Dialga has helped, but I have to play around keeping Kyogre out.

 

[Draconid997]

If a smeargle leads with something like talonflame, it usually means that it holds a choice scarf, if not it is usually sash (80% of the time it's sash), also most smeargle that run dark void will also run spiky shield (97% DV and 61% SS) so you just need to plan your move against all possibilities

If the opposing kyogre has thunder, then ferrothorn and dialga are good switch-ins

 

[rcade216]

Yeah I am just not predicting right.

More practice I guess.

A lot of people running Kyogre and Groudon on their team. Making it much harder to predict their team. Although usually they bring Kyogre thinking I will leave Ferrothorn on the bench.

This battle drove me nuts. I thought my Kyogre was faster than his Cresselia since mine is built more towards TR, but he got the Skill Swap off. I think Cresselia at 0 SPD and negative nature is 94 speed and my Kyogre is 105 speed.

Q8TG-WWWW-WW3P-RUUT

Both his Pokémon would have had no attacks I think. Smeargle was scarf'd and locked into Fake Out.


More practice though. I am not use to using any Legends. My only experience is with Cresselia trying to make a Trick Room team work.

 

[Draconid997]

Cresselia with 0 IVs/0 EVs has 81 speed. To win the matchup against kyogre/groudon with support, your cresselia has to run a bit of speed so that it is slower in TR and can get your weather up against other support, in your case i think 1 Spe cresselia needs 28 EVs to hit 84 Spe, youll have to check but this should work

 

[rcade216]

Cresselia with 0 IVs/0 EVs has 81 speed. To win the matchup against kyogre/groudon with support, your cresselia has to run a bit of speed so that it is slower in TR and can get your weather up against other support, in your case i think 1 Spe cresselia needs 28 EVs to hit 84 Spe, youll have to check but this should work

I'm confused there. My Cresselia is at 81 Speed and a Negative Nature 0 IV Kyogre/Groudon would be at 85. In Trick Room wouldn't I already be faster?

I think my Cresselia on my team needs Helping Hand back over Gravity. Gravity works better on my son's team.

I'm off to bed and will do some tweaks tomorrow.

Thanks again everyone for the feedback.

 

[Lego]

I'm confused there. My Cresselia is at 81 Speed and a Negative Nature 0 IV Kyogre/Groudon would be at 85. In Trick Room wouldn't I already be faster?

I think my Cresselia on my team needs Helping Hand back over Gravity. Gravity works better on my son's team.

I'm off to bed and will do some tweaks tomorrow.

Thanks again everyone for the feedback.

I Think what Draconid997 is trying to say is that you should run 28 (yes it is 28 for a 1 Spe Sassy Cress to hit 84) Speed EVs in order to make it slower than 0IV/0EV Cresselia under Trick Room, so that the turn plays out something like this:

[Trick Room active]
[Primordial Sea active]
Enemy Cresselia used Skill Swap!
Enemy Cresselia gained Desolate Land!
Enemy PDon gained Levitate!
The Sunlight is harsh!

Cresselia used Skill Swap!
Cresselia gained Primordial Sea!
POgre gained Levitate!
The downpour is torrential!

and then you're in a much better position than your opponent - you have a POgre up in the rain, and their PDon can't do jack to a Levitating Pogre with Primordial Sea active.

 

[Draconid997]

I Think what Draconid997 is trying to say is that you should run 28 (yes it is 28 for a 1 Spe Sassy Cress to hit 84) Speed EVs in order to make it slower than 0IV/0EV Cresselia under Trick Room, so that the turn plays out something like this:

[Trick Room active]
[Primordial Sea active]
Enemy Cresselia used Skill Swap!
Enemy Cresselia gained Desolate Land!
Enemy PDon gained Levitate!
The Sunlight is harsh!

Cresselia used Skill Swap!
Cresselia gained Primordial Sea!
POgre gained Levitate!
The downpour is torrential!

and then you're in a much better position than your opponent - you have a POgre up in the rain, and their PDon can't do jack to a Levitating Pogre with Primordial Sea active.

Exactly :D
Very thorough explanation, thanks for saving me a job

 

[rcade216]

In the match I am thinking of my Cresselia was not in the battle. I think my Kyogre and Dialga was out with Rain up. I thought I would move first in Trick Room so I went for Water Spout. Which would have KO'd both Cresselia and Groudon as they were both low HP. My opponent's Cresselia hit Skill Swap before Water Spout.

Which the changes everyone has suggested the team is playing better, but my lack of experience is doing me in.

I have a day or so before the International Challenge to get some more practice.

iPRODIGY VGC mentioned a Smeargle check. What would be a good check in this META?

I had Whimsicott before, but Whimsicott really killed momentum for my team. I always try to double target Smeargle with Kangaskhan and Talonflame, but that Spiky Shield is a pain. With so many versions of Smeargle it is hard to predict which one is coming. I have been seeing more Choice Scarf Fake Out Smeargle. Which usually saves Dark Void for late game, but is then locked into Dark Void.

The Choice Scarf version to me seems like a major handicap to your team. Being locked into Fake Out or a status move is an all or nothing tactic and I saw that last night when my opponent forfeit with his Smeargle and Cresselia still on the field. Neither had an attacking move. Smeargle was locked into Fake Out and Cresselia was just Skill Swapping everything.

 

[iPRODiGY VGC]

Thundurus is pretty good for the taunt option and he also has the benefit of hitting Kyogre hard.

Crobat is also a good counter.

 

[Draconid997]

Thundurus is pretty good for the taunt option and he also has the benefit of hitting Kyogre hard.

Crobat is also a good counter.

Crobat seems to be one of the best counters to smeargle in the metagame at the moment.
It has the inner focus ability, negating fake outs and lum berry will let it use taunt with temporary impunity to sleep.
It is also one of the fastest taunt users to not have priority taunt, which allows it to use taunt well when choice scarf smeargle has quick guard support.
Unfortunately, it still underspeeds choice scarf smeargle as we have discussed, so scarf smeargle+quick guard support will always be able to get one dark void off no matter the taunt user.
However there are ways to beat scarf smeargle+quick guard that can specifically be applied to your team:

1. Use Crobat over Talonflame + Protect on Kangaskhan (Over Low Kick)

With this slot you can effectively stop most smeargle with taunt/tailwind+kangaskhan (as explained below) and have a good matchup against most big 6 orientated teams. The only problems are that:
1. Crobat weakens your matchup against primal groudon, since you lack talonflame, your secondary groudon answer
2. It suffers from '4-moveslot syndrome.' Crobat can not check smeargle/xerneas if it runs taunt: it needs haze to do so, but then it needs taunt to check smeargle+quick guard.

Your main gameplan to check smeargle+quick guard is:

T1: Lead Kangaskhan+Crobat
- Protect Kangaskhan+Taunt smeargle (i.e kangaskhan does not get put to sleep)
- Unfortunately if the opponent predicts really well, you could be facing against both opposing mons in tailwind
T2: OHKO Smeargle+Match Tailwinds

2. Use Protect Kangaskhan+Lum Berry Cresselia

This will allow you to beat scarf smeargle with quick guard support with relatively small changes to your team. Lead Cresselia+Kangaskhan against smeargle and use this gameplan against smeargle/quick guard:

T1: Protect+Trick Room
- Similar reasoning, but a perk is that smeargle will not outspeed either mons on the second turn

3. Use Magic Coat on Cresselia (Over Helping Hand)

Probably the smallest change you can make, but one of the most effective. This will stop any incoming dark voids and will in turn put smeargle and its support to sleep. However this will mean getting rid of helping hand on cresselia, which is an incredibly useful support move and will limit your options a little. This is a good swap if you're especially worried about smeargle.

Out of these, i would probably say option 3 is the best but it's up to you

 

[iPRODiGY VGC]

Is giving up low kick worth it though? You pretty much automatically lose the Kang mirror match.

Magic coat is a really good move. I was really surprised by it the first time I saw it. Lost all my momentum and eventually the game. Definitely recommend.

 

[Draconid997]

Is giving up low kick worth it though? You pretty much automatically lose the Kang mirror match.

Magic coat is a really good move. I was really surprised by it the first time I saw it. Lost all my momentum and eventually the game. Definitely recommend.

I wouldnt say you auto lose to kang if you drop low kick, given that although the majority are 4/252/252, some are EV'd to survive low kick from at least jolly kang which means these semi-bulky kang (usually with 4 HP / 76 Def) roughly have a 50% chance to survive a low kick from this adamant kang. But yeah i would recommend magic coat.

 

[rcade216]

That is a lot to process. haha

I do like the Magic Coat Cresselia. I always try to find a surprise factor, but could explain why I am a .500 player.

Low Kick has been pretty good for me. Most of the Kangaskhans I faced I would skip Fake Out and got Low Kick. About 90% of the time Kangaskhan would target my partner Pokémon. I know my Kangaskhan is slower, which usually if my opponent has Xerneas in the lead, he will protect to stop the Fake Out from my Kangaskhan.

I have been wanting to breed a Crobat for awhile, so I have more of a reason now. However, I most likely won't add it to my team until after the International Challenge. I'm expecting a record of around 23-22, 24-21, or 25-20. My usual record. haha.