Tournament UU Snake Draft II Format Discussion

[Indigo Plateau]

Oh my god this picture is big but thanks lydian for the amazing sea snake​

I've gotten a few requests to post a thread for the format of this year's iteration of UUSD. We've decided to roll with the following tentative tiers (subject to change depending on number of signups):

SS1 / SS2 / SS3 / SM / ORAS / BW / DPP / ADV / GSC / RBY

We discussed including RBY in WCoP but it was a last minute discussion and concerns were brought up about filling up the player pool. For reference, last year's format was the same as above but with no GSC or RBY, resulting in 8 slots instead of 10. Below are some discussion points that I've received in PMs and that I want to gauge some more community opinion on:

• Is including 10 slots better than keeping last year's format and having 8 slots?
• If you prefer 8 slots, which tiers would you choose to make up the format?
• Is there a (reasonable) alternative that we're not thinking of?

Please use this thread to discuss the above points or any other concerns/questions you might have. Remember to keep discussion civil because I'll be deleting any dumb / unnecessary posts

 

[Jade]

I don't really care about what happens with GSC (sorry esta / holly) but as someone who's signing up to manage I sadly do not like the option of RBY in this tour.

Let me preface this post by saying that I don't have anything against the RBY community or the tier itself. I don't think it's a particularly good tier but I'd be fine with giving it a try in an "important" UU team tour. My main concern is the general haziness of the RBY UU playerbase combined with the garbage snake format. The snake format is generally going to be unfriendly to uncommonly played or known old gens and I don't see RBY being any exception. However, I would be fine with giving RBY a try as an option next year if the format for this tour is different or we do an old gens tour.

As for slots 4 SS with 1 of each old gen SM-GSC is basically the only viable option with no RBY imo. BO3 makes this tour UUPL 2 (which it already is but you get the point). I don't particularly like the idea of 4 SS but I think that 2 SS slots would be an extremely poor idea, as it not only limits representation for our current gen, but also reduces the chances of potential new players getting drafted. Last year's format is like fine but I think GSC is fine enough to include.

This isn't a complete opposition to RBY, I do want to give it a try, but I do not think this tour is a good chance to do so, both for manager reasons and the general poor format.

 

[Amukamara]

I think the 10 slot option with 3 ss is good, the extra 2 slots per team being used on GSC and RBY doesnt really water down the player pool much since they're mostly separate communities. I will say 4 ss is not ideal, we cant field 4 quality ss starters per team unfortunately.

 

[Plague von Karma]

I don't really care about what happens with GSC (sorry esta / holly) but as someone who's signing up to manage I sadly do not like the option of RBY in this tour.

Let me preface this post by saying that I don't have anything against the RBY community or the tier itself. I don't think it's a particularly good tier but I'd be fine with giving it a try in an "important" UU team tour. My main concern is the general haziness of the RBY UU playerbase combined with the garbage snake format. The snake format is generally going to be unfriendly to uncommonly played or known old gens and I don't see RBY being any exception. However, I would be fine with giving RBY a try as an option next year if the format for this tour is different or we do an old gens tour.

As for slots 4 SS with 1 of each old gen SM-GSC is basically the only viable option with no RBY imo. BO3 makes this tour UUPL 2 (which it already is but you get the point). I don't particularly like the idea of 4 SS but I think that 2 SS slots would be an extremely poor idea, as it not only limits representation for our current gen, but also reduces the chances of potential new players getting drafted. Last year's format is like fine but I think GSC is fine enough to include.

This isn't a complete opposition to RBY, I do want to give it a try, but I do not think this tour is a good chance to do so, both for manager reasons and the general poor format.

What haziness? What on earth are you on about? There were over 40 signups for RBY UU in RBYPL II alone, let alone how successful the tier was in UUFPL before. Go here and search "UU", you'll see 3 pages of people who signed up for it, many of whom went undrafted due to the limited slots. A few of these players are actually quite strong too, so there's no concern for competition, and a few of the signups are already titans playing in RBYPL. I think this is a fine opportunity for the undrafted players to get a shot at being in a team tour here. Hell, there are people who look for games daily in the RBY Discord - the largest of the gen specialist servers, by the way - and get decently quick responses. The playerbase is plenty loud enough, I genuinely have no idea how you come to the conclusion that it's "hazy".

If you're on about "haziness" in terms of us being a bit "out of the way", then I vaguely understand from the perspective of "ok, what are their wins, are they good?"; you can't really search the UU forum or something, you'll have to view the RBY forum, Discord server, etc. However, I also don't see how the onus is on the playerbase to give managers a dossier of their tournament results unless they are dead serious about competing and getting drafted. Is it not mainly the manager's responsibility to do background checks of the players they're interested in? Should they not be looking for tournaments where this tier has been played? There's been a good few events this past year: RBYPL I & II, UUFPL, the suspect tournaments, etc. An ounce of groundwork - literally going to the signup threads and searching "UU" - could show at least participation history.

I can't say much for how the tier is hurt by Snake, but at this point, efforts to call the playerbase "too small", "hazy", etc feels ignorant best, malicious at worst. I can understand concerns given we're "outsiders", but like, seriously, what more do you want? I'm sorry if I seem frustrated, but I just don't get it.

EDIT: I counted up the signups and unless I counted poorly we have 14 right now, which is more than GSC and ADV. Seriously, what are the concerns here?

 

[Lily]

I initially proposed the current tiers and think that it's the optimal way to do things. Less so because I want RBY in (but it's by far the best 10th), but because 2 SS slots is really, really bad.

I've had like three people PM me already asking me if there's anything they can do to boost their chances at getting picked, and I've tried to advise, but if we were to bring the amount of SS slots down from 3 to 2 then like, would they really have any shot at all? That's 20 SS starters total which is a really low amount; considering SCL has 10 slots and is already very difficult for UU mains to break into, I don't think that dynamic should really be applied to a for-fun subforum tour that is intended to be both competitive but also developmental for newer players. It'd just be a huge mistake to regress in this way, so 8 slots can't work unless we cut GSC which is also not a good idea because a) I don't want Estarossa in my PMs about it and b) that tier saw a significant amount of work to make it even remotely playable, it shouldn't get thrown by the wayside for nothing. 10 slots > 8 unless the signups are really dire, which I highly doubt they will be.

On RBY, I get the hesitance to try it. Managers have to scout talent from a community they're largely unfamiliar with, there are sure to be endless complaints about whose Tentacruel freezes the other's first, and if it does get in then I'm expecting at least 50 wrap jokes over the course of the tournament. It's still worth giving it a shot, though; I don't really get the arguments above that the Snake format changes things? It's not as good as auction but I don't see why this is a RBY-specific issue. The playerbase is also fairly entrenched now and shouldn't be a problem in terms of skill level. But let's put it like this:

-> UUFPL is not happening again, ever, unless it's behind closed doors as a Discord tournament like it used to be;
-> RBY UU is unlikely to ever make it into UUPL proper because that tournament's format is far too beloved to change it, at least for the rest of this generation;
-> UUWC is an exception and also doesn't have GSC because it's unlikely to be able to field enough players from these smaller tiers in every region. Heck we even struggle to field ADV and BW players from every region as is;

so for these reasons, UUSD really is the best tournament to test the Tentacruel-infested waters if we're gonna do it at all, and given this is the best opportunity we've had in a long time I think we should.

tldr don't do 8 slots it sucks

 

[phoopes]

Obviously I'm biased because I'm an RBY UU main, but I def think that the current proposed 10 slot format is the way to go. My stance on stuff like this is almost always "the more the merrier," like why not try and bridge the gap between the older gen UU communities with the current UU forum? I only see benefits. Players could pick up new tiers if we're included, both newer gen players checking out RBY and people like me checking out newer gen stuff (just today I tried to join a DPP UU tournament on Showdown but my team was out of date with the bans and stuff lol. so that made me want to get one that was up to date so I could participate in the future!)

Everyone in RBY has worked really hard over the past year+ to get our lower tiers seen as legit, from the massive dex overhaul to various tournaments like RBYPL I and II, UUFPL, the Dragonite suspect tours, RoAOlympics... and I think that we've proven ourselves enough to earn a spot in this tour too. Like May said, we've had a really good amount of signups for all of our previous tours, and this one is shaping up to be no different, with a bunch of capable players already signed up even though it's only been a few hours so far. I guarantee you there'll be lots of great, competitive matches should we be included and I think that's something we'd all like to see. Our tier is really unique and I'd hate to see it left out over unfounded concerns over whether we can get enough good players for it (because we can).

#freeRBY

 

[Indigo Plateau]

I’m going to keep my post short because I’m tired as shit but I like the idea of 8 slots more than 10. fwiw I have no problem with having 10 slots, especially if my opinion is in the minority. Please do note though that this is my own opinion, so don’t take anything personally if you disagree - I still have to be unbiased and objective when it comes to making decisions.

1 - I think last year’s UUSD format was perfect and extremely competitive. Yes, there was a lack of GSC (+RBY) and I know the tiers’ playerbases want them to be more represented. However, (and I apologize if this sounds elitist or rude or whatever you wanna call it) I think adding a third SS + an RBY slot would decrease the “quality” of the tour.

2 - Why do I think the “quality” would be worse? Again, personal opinion, but I don’t like the state of SS right now and I think RBY is not fun to play or watch. I’m not saying this is objectively true - the RBY community has shown they have an active playerbase and a lot of people enjoy playing the tier. From my experience trying to watch battles / replays or trying to play it a couple times though, it’s not for me. I didn’t like GSC at first but now I enjoy watching it, so I promise I tried!

3 - Quality > Quantity. Like I said before, I thought UUSD performed almost flawlessly last year bar the auction, which we’re already trying to change at least a bit (comanagers, potentially randomizing pick order, etc). If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. I realize that 8 slots realistically means 3 SS + no GSC or RBY and I’m ok with that. Initially I wanted 2 SS slots + GSC (see point #2) but was the only one that supported this on discord so I won’t push for it if I’m on that train alone. The format performed so well last year that I really really really didn’t want it to change to 10 slots. Even with 3 SS slots last year, we saw people like Clark get a chance to start and have a good come-up in the tier.

tl;dr - the format with 8 slots performed perfectly last year, adding a third SS + RBY would decrease my personal interest because I dislike the tiers & I’m not a fan of the quality of play in either tier, but if the majority prefers 10 slots then that’s cool

 

[pac]

Hey! So if you don't know me I'm a very active member of the RBY UU & RBY NU C&C teams, as well as the RBY Community as a whole. In general I agree with May's and phoopes' points on RBY,

If you're on about "haziness" in terms of us being a bit "out of the way", then I vaguely understand from the perspective of "ok, what are their wins, are they good?"; you can't really search the UU forum or something, you'll have to view the RBY forum, Discord server, etc. However, I also don't see how the onus is on the playerbase to give managers a dossier of their tournament results unless they are dead serious about competing and getting drafted. Is it not mainly the manager's responsibility to do background checks of the players they're interested in? Should they not be looking for tournaments were this tier has been played? There's been a good few events this past year: RBYPL I & II, UUFPL, the suspect tournaments, etc. An ounce of groundwork - literally going to the signup threads and searching "UU" - could show at least participation history.

, but am aware some players may not wish to do the legwork for a generation they deem as irrelevant because they can't handle Surf missing. So, I'm here to help let y'all know about who the notable RBY UU players are! Going in order of my personal Player Rankings here, but that's completely subjective obviously. Players in bold are those who have signed up for RBY at UUSD, at the time of writing this post. Italicized players are those who have expressed interest in doing so. I will update these two metrics with post edits as sign-ups continue. Do not take this as a conclusive list, many more players could be included. Other players (some have signed up alr) include LTG, Unowndragon, Ruft, Hex, and Lilburr that are also good.

Players

Lusch -

One of the RBY UU Pioneers, most standard teams can be traced back to his work in one way or another. Can and will win versus literally anybody, is a god at this tier. Went fucking 7-1 at UUFPL.

1st at UUFPL, 1st at RoA Olympics 4
Wins over Eb0la, Kjdaas, phoopes, and iKiQ.

Eb0la -

While his teambuilding creativity isn't as utilized as the other players, his fundamentals are out of this world. This makes him one of the best players to practice against, being well trained in standard teams. Him and Lusch are near-equals.

2nd at UUFPL, 1st at RBYPL I, 1st at DNite Sus Tour #1
Wins over Holly, phoopes, Lord Thorx, Justamente, pac

Shellnuts -

Arguably the most technical player in RBY UU, his prepwork is absolutely fucking insane and his teams are incredibly consistent. Essentially guaranteed to go more than positive in any bracket he goes in.

4th at UUFPL, 2nd at DNite Sus Tour #1
Wins over Eb0la, Holly, phoopes, Sevi 7, Justamente, and May.

Volk -

The Venusaur menace is here to kick ass and click Sleep Powder T1 after Kadabra lead. Easily best player when it comes to ratio of time in the competitive scene to skill level. Another guaranteed positive player.

1st at RBY UU Spotlight Tour 2021
Wins over Shellnuts, Sevi 7, and Holly

Kjdaas -

Kjdaas, Lusch, and Eb0la make up the old guard of RBY UU legends. Has the tendency to lose to lower ranked players, but also can win 100% versus any matchup thrown at her. Consistent player, makes great use of Dragonite and Omastar. Has extremely consistent tournament results.

2nd at RBYPL I, 3rd at RoA Olympics 5.
Wins over Eb0la and Sevi 7

FriendOfMrGolem120 -

One of the GOAT RBY and GSC players, finds equally high success in RBY UU. Extremely scary player, some even rate as high as Top 3 or Top 4. MrGolem120 would be very proud.

1st at RoA Olympics 5
Wins over Kjdaas, Torchic, Sevi 7

Torchic -

The infamous "Godslayer". Arguably the best RBY player in the overlooked but quite large Chinese community (and most certainly the best in RBY UU). Has tutored fantastic players like Unowndragon, while also having few visible RBY UU replays to his name, meaning he's very hard to scout for. Also has a TON of experience in team tours, and is very reliable in getting to matches on time consistently and supporting the team.

2nd at RoA Olympics 5
Wins over Eb0la, Shellnuts, Amaranth

Holly -

The GSC NU Queen has come to kick ass in RBY UU. At UUFPL she performed extremely admirably, notably being Lusch's only loss the entire tournament.

3rd at UUFPL
Wins over Lusch, Volk, pac, and May.

phoopes -

3rd at UUFPL
Wins over Volk, Holly, Amaranth, AM, and pac.

Sevi 7 -

The Poliwrath Enthusiast in Sevi has been around for quite some time. While he's a tad rusty due to work, and thus doesn't have as many recent results, he's extremely motivated and has proven time and time again to be very competent. Cannot count out in any MU.

2nd at RBY UU Spotlight Tour 2021
Wins over Lord Thorx

Amaranth -

While he doesn't have as many incredible RBY UU results, he's been playing the tier for a long time and is famous as one of the spearheads of RBY as a generation. Has incredible fundamentals, like Eb0la.

3rd at RoA Olympics 5
Wins over Kjdaas

iKiQ -

iKiQ has been around for quite some time, close sets with top players and a spectacular performance at RBYPL I.

3rd at RBYPL I
Wins over Kjdaas

Lord Thorx -

Similar situation to iKiQ (just like his results are similar).

4th at RBYPL I
Wins over Kjdaas

Justamente -

A new face on the scene thanks to UUFPL, and while they don't have as many established results, they've already garnered impressive wins that should establish them as a high level player. With participation I expect them to only rise.

7th at UUFPL
Wins over Holly, phoopes

Ice Yazu -

While he hasn't been an active presence in the RBY UU Scene, his performance at the Sus Tournament was particularly notable due to the wins he garnered over good players.

1st at DNite Sus Tour #2
Wins over Amaranth, pac, and Ruft

around here is a kind of line between the really good results and the good results. the players below are still fantastic though, don't underrate them!

AM -

The infamous Charizard Enjoyer! Has some of the heatest takes of the meta, leading to very creative and underutilized strategies making him hard to prep for, while also having generally solid fundamentals.

5th at UUFPL
Wins over May, pac

May -

While the tournament results aren't as spectacular, May is known as one of the most innovative and effective teambuilders of the RBY UU community, as well as compiling vast amounts of data for stuff like the Resource Hub and her gajillion quality spreadsheets. She makes for possibly the single best prep partner you can find.

4th at RBY UU Dragonite Suspect Tour #1
Wins over iKiQ, meloyy

pac (me) -

uh, me! I'm pretty good I like to think, just somewhat inconsistent due to my playstyle?

3rd at RBY UU Dragonite Suspect Tour #2
Wins over May, meloyy

jyuux -

Won the 3rd Sus Tour over a really good player in phoopes

1st at RBY UU Dragonite Suspect Tour #3
Wins over phoopes

meloyy -

Performed admirably at the RBY UU Dragonite Suspect Tour, but more notably beat Lusch.

3rd at RBY UU Dragonite Suspect Tour #2
Wins over Lusch

If you DO want to do personal research, here's a list of all the notable RBY UU tournaments that have happened recently with links to their threads. The stats in the player spoiler are drawn from the completed section of these tournaments. If you're wondering why the Suspect Tours are included of all things, yeahhhh that's how desperate we are for results and how much we need representation (not to say there weren't some high level players at those tours, especially the first).

Tournaments

Completed:

RoA Olympics 4
RoA Olympics 5
RBYPL I
UUFPL
RBY UU Spotlight Tour 2021
RBY UU Dragonite Suspect Tour #1
RBY UU Dragonite Suspect Tour #2
RBY UU Dragonite Suspect Tour #3

In Progress:

RoA Olympics 6
RBYPL II

 

[lydian]

Oh my god this picture is big but thanks lydian for the amazing sea snake

i can resize it if you want

 

[Plague von Karma]

So a few concerns regarding subs were brought up to me by Estarossa, which I see as valid. Going through the signups that are there right now, though, everything seems fine.

The concern is essentially: "Finding subs will be difficult because we can't have someone who only plays RBY as a sub". I agree with the logic: if an RBYer leaves for a week or something then your team is in a terrible spot. However, this does not reflect in the signups, nor do I think that this occurring is likely at all with how passionate this playerbase is.

After doing a quick search in the thread, I've found the following players who play RBY UU in addition to other tiers. To clarify, this is about subs, not people who will start with the tier;

• Lilburr (all but GSC)
• Meru (SWSH)
• Amaranth (GSC)
• Luirromen (SWSH, SM)
• pif (all, requests support w/ gsc/rby)
• StitChuu (SWSH, GSC)
• Raichy (all but SM)
• UnzipsCrogre (SWSH)
• ausma (SWSH, SM)
• BFM (SWSH, ADV, ORAS. RBY lowest prio)
• roxiee (SM, BW, GSC)
• TLTK (GSC, DPP, ADV, ORAS)
• Greentea570 (SWSH, BW, ADV)
• Drogba in Shenhua (GSC)
• mentalsoft (BW, GSC, BW, DPP)
• LordThorx (GSC)
• Torchic (GSC)

and probably a few other people that I've missed.

This feels about what one would expect, and some of these players are solid: Amaranth, TLTK, BFM, and Torchic are players I know are at least decent at the tier, and Lilburr and ausma have shown potential. Hell, Torchic and Amaranth are what we'd consider "great" or even "top" players. I don't think any other than those two would necessarily have RBY as their "main tier", but is this not fine for someone you'd likely have play another tier and go to RBY in a bad spot? This pool feels like what one would expect from GSC, ADV, maybe BW. Hell, GSCers often play RBY on the side in general and vice versa, so I can see RBY's inclusion actually helping with GSC's pool as well.

 

[Rae]

I'll also drop my thoughts on some of the current aspects of the tournament being discussed

On the number if slots: I feel like 10 is the perfect amount for the tournament, including having both GSC and RBY. While I'm also not a massive fan of the current metagame and think that RBY has it's problems that may make people less likely to watch the matches, I think it's important to have a fair representation of both the old gens and the playerbase. Applying Lily's logic before, having 10 slots means that we'll have 30 SS starters with an almost guaranteed sub thrown in there. That would mean that we wouldn't just be able to see our stay players show their stuff, but we'd be able to see some newer talent emerge and even take some games - players like Monky25 and Lolito are two that instantly come to mind, both performing quite well in majors this year - as well as other picks that may fly under the radar like KM and Bandkrook if he's signed up. While i may be slightly biased by being a member of the new]er and unproven player base, I believe that having a solid balance between the tournament being fun and competitive is what we're after and having 3 SS slots does that perfectly

As for the GSC and RBY tiers, I'm super down to see both make their way into the tourney. Not only does this mean Estarossa will stop asking me for gsc matches while sending me GIFs of either cats, hippos or weasels, but for RBY's case we'll get to see a lot of returning characters from UUFPL make their way back onto the big stage like Eb0la and Shellnuts. As interesting of a metagame it is, I think UUSD is the perfect place to try it out. Even if we were to omit it from the current list, I can't think of many reasonable replacements for it outside of Bo3 which isn't a fantastic format. GSC may get a lot of hate for being boring due to its slower pace, but offensive teams have started to see a lot more usage and with the sign ups we currently have it should be a fun oldgen to keep your eyes on.

Some final words, the recent changes to BW UU should hopefully make the tier a bit more enjoyable despite how cruel of a metagame it is. Preventing that little bit of cheese should give us some more enjoyable matches. I hope everyone enjoys this tournament and here's to some great games!

 

[Accel]

I am honestly glad that UUSD is returning for a second straight year since I deem it to be the second-best UU team tournament behind UUPL. Last year's iteration was mostly well received, with the main qualms being the draft itself and how revealing the draft order early had some negative impacts on draft planning for most managers. In my opinion, one of UUSD I's clear strengths was its structure. Eight slots (3 SS / SM / ORAS / BW / DPP / ADV) helped to maintain a format that was successfully tested through UU World Cup and showcased gameplay in tiers that have been strongly entrenched throughout UUPLs spanning over nearly a decade.

I’m going to keep my post short because I’m tired as shit but I like the idea of 8 slots more than 10. fwiw I have no problem with having 10 slots, especially if my opinion is in the minority. Please do note though that this is my own opinion, so don’t take anything personally if you disagree - I still have to be unbiased and objective when it comes to making decisions.

1 - I think last year’s UUSD format was perfect and extremely competitive. Yes, there was a lack of GSC (+RBY) and I know the tiers’ playerbases want them to be more represented. However, (and I apologize if this sounds elitist or rude or whatever you wanna call it) I think adding a third SS + an RBY slot would decrease the “quality” of the tour.

2 - Why do I think the “quality” would be worse? Again, personal opinion, but I don’t like the state of SS right now and I think RBY is not fun to play or watch. I’m not saying this is objectively true - the RBY community has shown they have an active playerbase and a lot of people enjoy playing the tier. From my experience trying to watch battles / replays or trying to play it a couple times though, it’s not for me. I didn’t like GSC at first but now I enjoy watching it, so I promise I tried!

3 - Quality > Quantity. Like I said before, I thought UUSD performed almost flawlessly last year bar the auction, which we’re already trying to change at least a bit (comanagers, potentially randomizing pick order, etc). If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. I realize that 8 slots realistically means 3 SS + no GSC or RBY and I’m ok with that. Initially I wanted 2 SS slots + GSC (see point #2) but was the only one that supported this on discord so I won’t push for it if I’m on that train alone. The format performed so well last year that I really really really didn’t want it to change to 10 slots. Even with 3 SS slots last year, we saw people like Clark get a chance to start and have a good come-up in the tier.

tl;dr - the format with 8 slots performed perfectly last year, adding a third SS + RBY would decrease my personal interest because I dislike the tiers & I’m not a fan of the quality of play in either tier, but if the majority prefers 10 slots then that’s cool

I mostly agree with IP's earlier post here, particularly about 8 slots being a tried-and-true approach to these non-UUPL UU team tournaments. The current state of SS UU is clearly a discussion topic in most circles: the tier is superbly offensive, arguably to a negative extent, where most playstyles have proven to be inconsistent compared to some form of hyper offense. This skews teambuilding in general, particularly from a defensive standpoint, where it is nigh impossible to have a comfortable answer to some combination of wallbreakers that are frequently paired together on HO builds. I suppose this is where people seem to be spawning the concept of decreasing the SS slots from 3 down to 2.

While I do agree that the current state of SS UU is far from enjoyable, I cannot in good faith support this decrease in slots. It is a current-gen tier after all; one that is most frequently played by virtue of timing and attention. This also isn't the first time a current-gen tier has been in an unsatisfactory state; the same situation has been seen throughout a few states of SM UU and UUPLs featuring it as the core focus maintained 3 slots of representation despite how appealing or appalling the tier was at that point in time. Therefore, we as a community should aim to develop it further rather than take the easy route of accepting the current iteration to be trash. Latias is already being suspected and while it is tough to pinpoint any other specific threats that may warrant a suspect test of their own, it is still of utmost importance to take steady and gradual measures to bring a sense of balance to the tier.

With this being said, I believe the following 2 options to be the best routes to take with regards to the tournament's playable slots:

*** SS1 / SS2 / SS3 / SM / ORAS / BW / DPP / ADV ***

or

SS1 / SS2 / SM / ORAS / BW / DPP / ADV / GSC

I previously stated that I believe the first option, the returning format from last year's edition of UUSD, to be the best-case scenario here simply because we've seen it work to great effect in previous UU team tournaments. SM UU through ADV UU get their recurring representation and we maintain 3 SS UU slots which are crucial for the tier's development going forward. The second option serves to satisfy those who truly believe SS UU to be a lost cause in the short term, while also giving GSC UU another shot outside the bounds of a UUPL setting. At this point, it is a fixture in UUPLs and is also featured through GSC UU Cup in the annual UU Classic tournament.

Some of you may be disappointed at my lack of RBY UU's inclusion here. I accept that the tier has a sizable community and a swarm of interest, which has led to frequent RBY UU tournaments through PS!'s UnderUsed room and even representation as a standalone slot in UUFPL. Any concerns about the playerbase not being up to par are foolish since there are many who have experience with the tier's style. No manager can use an excuse along the lines of 'I have no idea how the tier works and of how deep or shallow the playerbase is and I'm too lazy to figure out any options before the draft.' I myself am familiar with it, having seen certain players approach teambuilding and playing through UUFPL and even playing it myself in a handful of tournaments on PS!. Respectfully, it is a simple tier to pick up once you're aware of RBY mechanics and sequencing in general.

However, regardless of all the positive sentiments I have stated up until now, I believe that it is still too soon for RBY UU to be featured in one of the annual UU team tournaments. A large concern, one that I assume many others share with me, is how every RBY UU matchup from UUFPL was designed with a Bo3 setting to try and offset the rng element that is present in a comparatively higher degree than other UU old gens. A potential of three games a week is a large commitment from any player or manager on a continual basis in terms of team preparation and execution on a weekly basis. I am sure that some within the RBY UU playerbase would be up to the task, as they are familiar with RBY UU and its required pre-game efforts through previous tournaments but translating it all to a UU team tour setting isn't exactly simple.

To me, a proper first step would be including it as a cup within the confines of UU Classic so as to obtain a more insightful opinion of its inclusion into the annual UU circuit. When GSC UU was first introduced as part of a UUPL VI, there were similar doubts about how the tier and its playerbase would fit into the otherwise established structure of UUPLs in past years. I agree with the approach taken by those who oversaw tournaments at the time, which was to properly evaluate whether or not the tier was competitive enough to be added to UUPL by precisely going over existing tournament replays which showcased what the tier had to offer. I will now aim to mimic a similar approach and go over some RBY UU games from UUFPL in detail.

Pac vs PVK

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1uu-1307460727-2pl5qmn3popia4rukt73nkayk96bp6rpw

T1 - T5: So Pac leads with Hypno while PVK reveals a lead Venusaur and opts to Sleep Powder the Hypno directly. Pac anticipates this and brings in Kadabra as Sleep Powder misses, which enables Pac to threaten the Venusaur out with a potential Psychic. PVK brings in Hypno as Pac Thunder Waves it, proceeding to Seismic Toss is while fishing for paralysis on the Hypno to try and take it out immediately. Pac manages to get one full para on the Hypno and nearly takes it out but PVK pulls of a Rest and resets the scenario.

Immediately we're made aware of how dependent RBY UU's style is on rng. If the Kadabra were asleep then this would be a totally different game from how it eventually played out, but because it dodged the Sleep Powder, it almost managed to take the Hypno out by fishing for more rng through full paras.

T5 - T9: Pac brings in Raticate as PVK's Hypno burns a sleep turn but is forced to switch out in order to maintain Hypno as a defensive option vs Pac's double Psychics. PVK brings in Kangaskhan on a Super Fang, and Pac Super Fangs again to bring Kanga down to 25% as PVK gets a Body Slam off in return. With the Kangaskhan low and a switch imminent from PVK's side, Pac opts for a Blizzard on the incoming Venusaur and manages to freeze it for the entirety of the game.

Rng makes another appearance here when PVK's Venusaur was forced to come in on a proactive Blizzard play from Pac. Status in RBY UU seems to be overbearing in general and there's really no way to properly address or limit it. The tier is, by design, rng dependent and again we see one player fishing for it continuously while the other is basically struggling to catch up.

T10 - T19: Pac Body Slams an incoming Tentacruel switch from PVK's side, which could've been yet another instance of rng against PVK. Luckily PVK avoids the para and is able to take Raticate out with a Surf. Dugtrio is brought in from Pac's side and immediately threatens Tentacruel out with an Earthquake. PVK sacks Venusaur as it is useless for the rest of the game while frozen, which allows Pac to get a Substitute up. After Venusaur faints, PVK opts to bring in a Kadabra which manages to avoid a critical hit and breaks the Dugtrio's psychic. PVK sacks the already low Kangaskhan in order to bring in Dugtrio to try and beat Pac's Dugtrio in the mirror. They exchange Earthquakes, neither of which manages to crit, and Pac manages to win the second speed tie and takes PVK's Dugtrio out.

Pretty simple, but Pac is so far up in this game and maintains control with Dugtrio as PVK sacks 2 mons to it simply to position around it as best as possible. PVK's own Dugtrio has to try and get crits (higher chance bc of its high speed) in order to take down Pac's Dugtrio and potentially others.

T20 - 21: PVK brings in Hypno and is stuck with one more sleep turn, which seals Pac's win as Dugtrio can finish off the game by spamming Earthquake. Pac manages to get a crit on Hypno which sped things up and PVK forfeits, ending the game.

With the help of status via fishing, Pac wins comfortably featuring a Thunder Wave Kadabra, a Blizzard Raticate, and a Dugtrio with a high crit rate that spammed EQ vs PVK's team without a single ground immune.

Lusch vs Shellnuts

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1uu-1332365429-m6iekekxno1k84cbl8zirxclnvn91m8pw

T1 - T9: At lead we see Lusch lead with Tentacruel as Shellnuts leads with Kadabra. Shellnuts predicts Lusch to switch out of Tentacruel in fear of a Psychic and catches an ensuing switch to Hypno with a Venusaur. The proactive play here is to go for a Sleep Powder and fish for sleep turn rolls to take out the Hypno. Lusch, trying to prevent this route, goes to Gyarados and manages to dodge the Sleep Powder. Gyarados Blizzards the Venusaur once and gets a freeze, essentially taking it out for the remainder of the game. Venusaur is basically going to be sacked now or later from Shellnuts, and Shellnuts goes to Hypno as Gyarados Body Slams it and paralyzes it as it comes in. Lusch brings in Dugtrio and tries to scare Hypno out with para + crit odds, and brings in a Hypno of their own. Lusch then fishes for full paras on Hypno but right as Hypno is low, Shellnuts manages to Rest it up.

T10 - T34: Lusch brings in Dragonite, expecting the Hypno to burn a turn of sleep as Shellnuts bring in Tentacruel, which scares the Dnite out with a potential Blizzard. Shellnuts goes for it as Lusch switches to Omastar and avoids a freeze. Lusch brings in their own Tentacruel and until Turn 20, the game is basically transformed into a temporary stalemate featuring Wrap. Shellnuts brings in a Persian on Lusch's Omastar and it uses Thunderbolt on Omastar while Omastar Surfs it in return. Another Wrap sequence ensues until they both switch out and Lusch's Dugtrio faces Shellnuts's Kadabra. It's fairly uneventful until T31, where Shellnut's Persian crits a Slash on Hypno and takes a Thunder Wave in return. It crits another Slash on the incoming Dragonite and dodges a Wrap from it while Toxic'ing it in return. Lusch Body Slams the incoming frozen Venusaur as Shellnuts attempts to reposition by bringing in Articuno next as Lusch brings in Dugtrio.

Now we see how dependent the game is on Wrap for positioning and sequencing, leading to gameplay that drags on and is uneventful as they both play through the Wrap sequence while fishing for any available rng to break out of the loop. The Wrap miss from Dragonite on Persian was huge since it turns around an otherwise dominant game from Lusch so far and a Toxic'd Dragonite won't be able to have the impact it otherwise could've had.

T36 - T60: Articuno forces Dugtrio out with a Blizzard, which forces Lusch into Omastar and is able to rest it up. Another Tentacruel vs Tentacruel wrap turn ensues where Shellnuts brings in Kadabra on a Wrap miss and is able to break the loop, but with Hypno low, Kadabra is able to net a KO on it. Dragonite Agilities and Wraps Articuno but is unable to commit because it's poisoned, which leads to frequent pivoting until Shellnuts tactically brings in Tentacruel to finish Dragonite off. Dugtrio comes in next from Lusch's side and subs up as Shellnuts sacks Venusaur. It takes Venusaur out and manages to crit the incoming Persian as well with an Earthquake, claiming another KO while under a sub. Kadabra comes in to break the sub but is 2hko'd by Dugtrio's Earthquake, and Lusch proactively Rock Slides the Articuno and 2hkos it as well. From there on out Lusch's Dugtrio cleans with Earthquake and wins the game.

Shellnuts faces unfavorable rng from the start and manages to slightly get back into the game by virtue of a wrap miss which allows a Toxic on Dragonite. Fishing with Blizzard freezes, winning wrap ties with Tentacruel, and critting with an already paralyzed Persian is all for naught and Lusch is able to comfortably manage the flow of the game with Dugtrio and Tentacruel to seal the deal because of Shellnuts's statused team.

Thoughts on RBY UU and why UU team tournaments aren't ready for it

After covering these games and combining this newfound knowledge with what I've already experienced with RBY UU in the past, I deem it to be too dependent on rng by design for it to be a productive addition alongside the other comparatively stable UU old gen tiers in UUSD. You can view these two games to be severe cases of the 'ideal flow' of RBY UU games, but this is really what I've noticed from watching and playing many games. It all revolves around positioning on part of the proactive Wrap user while the other is forced to play more of a reactive game by slowly losing health and switching around it while also risking freezes from Tentacruel and Dragonite even if they're able to break the Wrap loops. Status, in general, is fished for at literally every given opportunity and is just how the tier's played by design. Full paras can remove key bulky mons from the game with one or two turns gone wrong and freezes are a death sentence for any mon that has the misfortune of being afflicted by it. Crit odds, specifically from Dugtrio, have skewed so many games simply because of how it can also place an immense amount of pressure on any Flying mons via its coverage options. Again, I know and realize that RBY as a generation and by virtue of its mechanics is an inherently rng-infested generation throughout its tiers and that there is an appeal to applying gradual pressure by fishing for your rng and trying to sequence ideally via Wrap and status/crit chances. However, I personally think it's a really dangerous addition to any team tournaments that feature tiers that are a lot more balanced and dependent on intrinsic player skill by comparison.

Adding RBY UU to the mix is essentially asking for 10 starting slots per team + 4 substitutes, which we have seen in the more recent UUPLs. While it does work in UUPL to great effect, the prestige of UUSD isn't really close to being on par with UUPL which is what it was aiming for in the first place with its inception last year. I also believe that general inclusivity should not be prioritized above all else; these tournaments are designed to be exclusive and feature UU's continual top performers while giving select opportunities to rising stars. Maintaining 8 slots was perfect in this regard through past UUWCs and UUSD I, with newer players continually breaking out on the tournament scene and reaping the rewards of their previous efforts that were poured into establishing themselves as reputable community members or tournament players in individual showings. While current-gen SS UU can be seen as unstable, I don't believe it's wise to completely buy into a sense of general instability by bringing about major changes to a tournament that ran quite successfully last year. Therefore, I strongly believe that the previously successful format of SS1 / SS2 / SS3 / SM / ORAS / BW / DPP / ADV should be preserved to give this year's tournament the highest chance of being as well-received as last year's UUSD.

 

[pac]

words

I find it kind of unfair that you took two replays from one tournament, and used it to declare an entire tier as unskillful and RNG-based. I'm fine with the conclusion with better evidence, but I wouldn't call this a steadfast conclusion drawn from this. The set of me vs May was generally regarded as much more RNG based than most RBY UU sets, with my Persian + Raticate team (a bullshit HO I invented known as "CatRat" by the community) being completely designed around abusing RNG and not being a fair example of the standard RBY UU experience.

Would it be helpful for our cause if we gathered a bunch of non-haxy RBY replays? If that's what's necessary, I'm sure we can collect a lot from the many notable tournaments we have.

This tier is different, not bad or unskillful. It's also strange how y'all consider Wrap interactions uneventful when it's a lot more interactive then newgen pivoting from the likes of U-Turn, since both players are constantly given option to play around the other. It's a lot more two-sided this way. Keeping Pokemon unparalysed and bringing them in on Wrap is effective counterplay, but that also leaves room for Tentacruel to pivot out. This leads to a lot of interesting interactions that require deep knowledge of the tier to profit off of consistently. Sure it takes more turns ig, but does it really matter when the gameplay itself is just as interesting when you get to know the tier?

 

[Plague von Karma]

I'm not going to comment on the game analysis as I don't really have much time to respond, and I think it will only veer this thread far out of its scope. I do heavily disagree, though.

There is something I want to rectify, though;

However, regardless of all the positive sentiments I have stated up until now, I believe that it is still too soon for RBY UU to be featured in one of the annual UU team tournaments. A large concern, one that I assume many others share with me, is how every RBY UU matchup from UUFPL was designed with a Bo3 setting to try and offset the rng element that is present in a comparatively higher degree than other UU old gens. A potential of three games a week is a large commitment from any player or manager on a continual basis in terms of team preparation and execution on a weekly basis. I am sure that some within the RBY UU playerbase would be up to the task, as they are familiar with RBY UU and its required pre-game efforts through previous tournaments but translating it all to a UU team tour setting isn't exactly simple.

BO3 is standard in RBY tournaments as a whole and pretty much everyone who is familiar with the generation accepts that it's optimal. I don't see how this is a concern when it's a normality, at least on our end. I believe this was originally enacted for OU when RNG was a concern (I want to say a really old SPL but I'm not sure) but it's become something of a culture in the community. The only time BO1 RBY UU has ever been played was in the suspect live tours, specifically due to the serious time constraints. Part of why UUFPL included RBY UU was because of the BO3-centric tournament culture of the greater RBY Community making it fit perfectly with what the tournament needed, at least if I recall correctly. If I misunderstand that aspect, then alright, but most RBYers deem BO1 to be a borderline dealbreaker regardless.

 

[Accel]

I find it kind of unfair that you took two replays from one tournament, and used it to declare an entire tier as unskillful and RNG-based. I'm fine with the conclusion with better evidence, but I wouldn't call this a steadfast conclusion drawn from this. The set of me vs May was generally regarded as much more RNG based than most RBY UU sets, with my Persian + Raticate team (a bullshit HO I invented known as "CatRat" by the community) being completely designed around abusing RNG and not being a fair example of the standard RBY UU experience.

Would it be helpful for our cause if we gathered a bunch of non-haxy RBY replays? If that's what's necessary, I'm sure we can collect a lot from the many notable tournaments we have.

This tier is different, not bad or unskillful. It's also strange how y'all consider Wrap interactions uneventful when it's a lot more interactive then newgen pivoting from the likes of U-Turn, since both players are constantly given option to play around the other. It's a lot more two-sided this way. Keeping Pokemon unparalysed and bringing them in on Wrap is effective counterplay, but that also leaves room for Tentacruel to pivot out. This leads to a lot of interesting interactions that require deep knowledge of the tier to profit off of consistently. Sure it takes more turns ig, but does it really matter when the gameplay itself is just as interesting when you get to know the tier?

Feel free to analyze replays of other games to prove your point, if it helps contribute to the general discussion of why RBY UU should be included in this tournament. I never said it was bad or unskillful, that certainly isn't my opinion of RBY UU. Fundamentally speaking, I do think it's uncompetitive in comparison to the other established UU old gens that have been fixtures in these yearly team tours. I also don't consider Wrap interactions uneventful; in the two games I went over I pointed out that it helped to maintain control for one side while the other side had to position themselves correctly to try and end the chain and regain momentum of their own. It's very similar to U-turn as you said, just drawn out a lot more by design. It's a bit unfair to lump me in with others who might think 'rby uu is hax dependent and uncompetitive in general' because I understand the allure of the unique sequencing and gameplay present within this format. I just think, for the reasons outlined in my post, that now isn't the time to include RBY UU in UUSD and that my ideal solution to boost representation would be within UU Classic in the future.

tl;dr: any part of my game analyses was and is meant to be a frank analysis, not just another shot at why rby uu supposedly sucks or any other negative sentiment, and it's meant to support my intentions of why rby uu wouldn't be a good addition to uu team tournaments at this point in time.

 

[BigFatMantis]

Part of why UUFPL included RBY UU was because of the BO3-centric tournament culture of the greater RBY Community making it fit perfectly with what the tournament needed, at least if I recall correctly. If I misunderstand that aspect, then alright, but most RBYers deem BO1 to be a borderline dealbreaker regardless.

RBY UU was initially going to be BO1 in UUFPL because I, like a lot of others, didn't know BO3 was standard with it. However, the community preferred it to be BO3, like it usually is in all other RBY tours, so that's what happened, and it worked out great. It was generally very well received as a tier by 7 out of 8 teams in that tour, and there was plenty of discussion in 7 out of 8 team discords on it. People like AM even became more involved in the tier despite having very little experience in it prior to the tour. Obviously not everyone is going to like it, but that's how it is with other tiers as well, it's just more prevalent for RBY at the moment partially because the tier has yet to really include it in any official formats.

Despite the other pitfalls of UUFPL (and myself), it tested out RBY pretty well and I think succeeded in that aspect. Most teams even had multiple people that could play the tier or wanted to play the tier, and a lot of people in UU ended up learning more about it. Honestly including it here should be fine, the only argument for non-inclusion should be for people who prefer the 8 tier format the exact same as last year for a less-inclusive but more competitive tour, which is a fair argument, but I don't think any of the other ones hold much water.

 

[eden]

"It's also strange how y'all consider Wrap interactions uneventful when it's a lot more interactive then newgen pivoting from the likes of U-Turn, since both players are constantly given option to play around the other. It's a lot more two-sided this way"

positioning w wrap is def a thing however:

Edit: I definitely think uturn gives you way more agency than wrap over a game. You can't seriously imply uturn is less skill intensive, and that wrap is some big brain 300 iq shit in terms of positioning come on

p impressive tbh - the response to your tier being called rng infested is: "wrap is way more intrinsically skilled than clicking uturn"

Tough sell

Edit: I don't agree that wrap is more interactive than uturn, I guess I slightly misunderstood what you posted tho

 

[pac]

"It's also strange how y'all consider Wrap interactions uneventful when it's a lot more interactive then newgen pivoting from the likes of U-Turn, since both players are constantly given option to play around the other. It's a lot more two-sided this way"

positioning w wrap is def a thing however:

correct me if I'm wrong: are you seriously dvocating against a competitive game being....more interactive, don't you want the players to have options to actively change the flow of a game...? You can't seriously imply uturn is less skill intensive, and that wrap is some big brain 300 iq shit in terms of positioning come on

maybe you misunderstood my point? I called Wrap a more interactive tool, so idk how I would be advocating AGAINST a game being more interactive. As for whether U-Turn or Wrap are more skillful, I will concede I put way too much opinion into that point by implying one was more skillful than the other.

 

[Volk]

Howdy. I play a lot of RBY UU and it happens to be my favorite tier. While I certainly like RBY UU receiving representation in "serious" tournaments, I don't have too much stock in this particular case because I don't plan on playing in this tournament. Regardless, the quality of discussion of RBY UU in this thread is just poor. I don't mean to come off as a jerk here, but if you don't play RBY UU, you should probably avoid speaking about the intricacies of its gameplay. The modern RBY UU metagame has been around for like five years now. It is a well-defined metagame played by a fairly large array of players of varying skill levels, including several that have been able to perform with remarkable consistency, even in a tournament setting. RBY UU is admittedly esoteric and can be tough to get into, but it is, without a doubt, a competitively viable tier. Stating that it is not competitive just shows a lack of understanding. Please stop maligning my favorite tier.

RBY UU does not need to be included in this edition of UU Snake Draft. I personally would like to see RBY UU (and GSC UU, for that matter) included, but I understand some of the arguments against it. Given the format of the tournament, I fully understand why some directors and managers don't want to include the tier. The base of players, while bigger than some other tiers, is admittedly not too big, so finding viable players could be difficult. Moreover, if a player has to drop out for a week for whatever reason, a team could be left in pretty bad shape, because not a ton of people know the tier and it isn't particularly easy to pick up, especially if you have no prior experience with RBY or GSC. This is annoying to deal with, especially in a snake-style tournament, so I understand the argument. If you are going to argue against including RBY UU, it is much fairer to make an argument about the size of the player base or how difficult it can be to quickly learn or how new it is. Heck, simply saying "I don't like RBY" is a more legitimate argument. I don't necessarily agree about the gravity of these issues, but I will acknowledge that they exist. However, if you don't play this tier, do not act as though you do not find it competitive. RBY UU is and has been a competitive metagame. This is not a valid concern for not including it in this tournament.

 

[dawnbuster]

not an rby post incoming…

as someone who does enjoy gsc uu quite a decent bit and has been pretty involved with the tier for about a year now, id like to comment on some stuff as i dont really see why it should be excluded from the tour. as lily mentioned the tier has saw a lot of work put into it to make it even a thing as well as resources for the the tier being updated pretty frequently. the tier has steadily grown in terms of playerbase and as a metagame with a pretty established group of people playing it in uupl each year, alongside a few newer faces coming into gsc uu tours more recently such as esta and myself. with all this combined with the fact that its been in uupl every year since 2018 i dont see why it would be a bad idea to branch it out further to other uu forum tours. the tier clearly has a few people quite passionate about it and a few of those have already signed up with signups only being up for a little over 24 hours. it is true that most of these ppl arent from the uu community itself, but i dont really see why this is an issue overall when the tier is still being played with quality games.

speaking of quality while the tier is flawed in a few ways, gsc uu is a competitive, strategic, balanced and overall decently fun metagame that rewards good play and good teambuilding. the tier is not stagnant and has saw several new developments such as the rise of gyarados and restalk mr mime, drop in usage of pokemon like slowbro and ampharos, and new sets being used on pokemon like granbull and hypno happening recently. i can understand why many people dislike playing + watching it due to the overall slower nature of the tier compared to later generations (heck i felt this way when i fist started the tier) due to the abundance of restalk, maxed out dvs, no boosting items, etc, but i will say the tier has gradually gotten more fast paced recently due to some of the metagame trends i mentioned. + its not like other generations where offense v offense games can occasionally be bang bang type shit where a mon dies every other turn, you can take things slowly but still find ways to get an offensive advantage. this combined with the fact that matchup should quite rarely be a deciding in games if your team is well built give the tier a unique and skill intensive vibe to it.

 

[Pak]

This shits weird. I do agree with whoever said that 8 slots is ideal and that the format of last year was p much ideal in my mind as someone who played a heavy role in drafting. Simply put, the conciseness was just really refreshing and planning was fairly straight forward. With that said, after thinking about this a bit more the last couple days, it isn't super feasible anymore. The number of tiers is just super super awkward. For the most part it seems like everyone has settled on 3 being a good number of current gen slots. 2 is definitely too little unfortunately, for blah blah metagame development (despite the fact that it'll be 70% tour players going in blind but I digress), but more importantly of all the opportunities available to newer players. It was only a year ago that we picked up clark as an unknown sub and he ended up in officials and all that, and only 1.5 years ago that lily was considered a very borderline-ish starter in UUPL 2020 before eventually ascending to tier leader. There are more examples id imagine but you get the point. It kinda goes without saying that pinning your hopes on some of these supposedly riskier picks at the time would be much harder to justify if there were any less than 3 slots available, no matter how people feel about the tier at the moment. Good god don't include a flipping bo3 slot to inflate it to 4. By far the worst part of the UUPL lineup.

Anyway, despite my personal feelings toward it, it'd feel pretty weird to cut GSC at this point. It's been in UUPL since 2018 and has consistently fielded competitive pools. I would imagine that would continue into this tour, and if it does then its incredibly hard to justify dropping since its part of UU classic now and all that too. This is where things get hard, since with 3 SS and a GSC slot, that leaves us at 9. Without making the obligatory joke to remove dog shit SM, there isn't a great solution beyond adding RBY which would theoretically be a natural fit. I haven't made much of an effort to watch games and am definitely not qualified enough to say whos good enough and whatever else for the tier to be 'competitive'. In the end I think these kinds of debates are almost always going to end up pointless since 90% of these arguments are going to be completely subjective anyway. I'm naturally inclined against it's inclusion because of my own unfamiliarity with it and imagine many others are too, but I honestly don't know. A lot of these arguments both ways have either struck me as weak in theory or just impossible to provide quantifiable support for. Whatever happens I don't care a ton but in general its annoying to see how these things always devolve into what they do.

With that pretty pointless mini rant over, the last thing I wanted to talk about was the number of subs. Not sure if this was set in stone already or what, but 4 subs is a little excessive in my mind. UUPL has been 10 slots and 2 subs min for what like 4 years now? I don't think anyone has ever complained about that and it isn't uncommon by any means for some teams to end on 12. I know an auction isn't directly comparable to a snake draft, but still. It may not be entirely advantageous in extreme circumstances, but its a perfectly viable team build. I think 3 subs is a good number to settle on. There's no way some people won't take this as some elitist take, but in my mind, if someone truly deserves to get picked for a tournament like this, then they will be, no matter how many slots there are. These are team tours in a random subforum; not the highest bar in the world. Realistically, at some point quality does begin to fall off. 8 teams of 14 is A LOT in a tour that will realistically have pretty limited interest compared to some others like even UUPL. On that note, excluding the two outlier 'army' teams in UUPL, the average team was exactly 13. I know this isn't the most consequential change but I figured it was worth bringing up. 3 subs should do a fine job of walking the line between team flexibility and not being overly inclusive, which does need to be considered at some point. Maybe 4 is still fine, but it seemed worth bringing up at the least.

 

[Diophantine]

-There are a decent amount of good players in every UU tier so the "uncompetitive" argument doesn't work with regards to playerbase. Just get to know them, ask around, or pick players you can trust to be decent from their performances in other tiers if they're motivated to play a tier you're unfamiliar with.

-Just because you don't understand a tier, it doesn't make it "bad", "unplayable" or "boring". Enough people clearly enjoy these things enough to sign up to play them in tournaments like these and they all have their own spinoff communities. These are always really bad arguments.

-The people that complain about GSC UU being these things should cut down on caffeine and take 5 mins to actually have a think about what's going on in a given battle with an open mind. Progress is made turn by turn, long-term planning is rewarded, and teams can get quite unique. Not to go off on a tangent, but I'm seeing people not even really understand the tier and make bold claims about it. It wasn't "unplayable" before, so I don't get what Lilburr is saying here:

b) that tier saw a significant amount of work to make it even remotely playable

I've been playing it since 2018, and despite meta changes in preferences it's always retained a constant level of stability. Perhaps they got it mixed up with GSC NU. In fact, since I've been playing, there have been a grand total of 0 bans from the tier and 0 drops from the tier above (Ampharos dropped earlier but barely even had an impact). (I agree w/ ur post in general I was just using this as an example of the point I was trying to make)

-As above, the same general arguments apply to RBY, although I don't know the meta enough to talk about specifics.

-We're playing Pokemon online for FUN. It's not serious at all and so including all tiers that fit the theme of the tournament can only be a positive because you're including more people to have FUN. Anyone not currently involved in RBY UU can have FUN helping their teammates by learning a new meta and pitching ideas. If they don't want to, they don't have to. Let the RBYers have FUN, and maybe you might too. Who tf cares about optimising competitiveness? There's no money at stake and it's a competition that no one outside of those playing will care about. Of course there should be moderation to some extent but just let ppl have fun. It's why we play fking Pokemon of all things.

-Correct me if I'm wrong but RBY OU is Bo3 in team tours due to its limited Pokemon pool, not due to "lololol hax tier". Increasing a sample size by 1/2 games isn't exactly playing into the "law of large numbers" to converge whoever wins to whoever should win. Don't know the specifics of that argument but I remember BKC making this point when people started trying to axe it from a tour. I think this legacy just continued to UU because people think it's because of "hax".

 

[lax]

As an enjoyer of untiers I think gsc and rby should be in

If were talking about skill in tiers just remove oras and bw loll 12% burn is BUSTED!! And they are cringe

 

[Lily]

It wasn't "unplayable" before, so I don't get what Lilburr is saying here:

I've been playing it since 2018, and despite meta changes in preferences it's always retained a constant level of stability. Perhaps they got it mixed up with GSC NU. In fact, since I've been playing, there have been a grand total of 0 bans from the tier and 0 drops from the tier above (Ampharos dropped earlier but barely even had an impact)

My wording was pretty bad but what I meant was that the tier had to effectively be worked on from the ground up in terms of resources & actually getting a playerbase (from what I've heard, I wasn't around). I've been told the tier was obviously playable but was barebones & resources either didn't exist or were super outdated, so it was difficult to get into for new players who hadn't touched it before, especially if they didn't know much about GSC OU.

Also @ the sub count, that can definitely be changed. We didn't really have much of a clue how many were considered necessary, we just kinda went "oh it's supposed to be 4 right" "yup" "ok nice". If people feel strongly about making it 3 then that's fine, I don't think it makes much difference overall but either option is fine imo

 

[Expulso]

the issue with 3 subs and thus an odd number of picks is that u don’t draft equally; in the 13th round you go “down” the snake but then don’t compensate by going back “up” it, giving an explicit advantage to the team that gets the first pick. we did this in ru snake and it was kinda weird

it isnt that big of an advantage since it comes in the 13th round meaning almost 100 players have been drafted already, but nothing wrong w making it 4 subs imo, esp if u have to cover gsc and rby

i support gsc and rby’s inclusion, honestly gsc uu is fucking awful to watch because it lacks the diversity of playstyles & ability to make progress with boom that gsc ou has and rby might be awful to watch too. however rby’s fighting for this hard enough that i think it’s probably fine to give them one team tour and this is the natural team tour to do that in, erring on the side of inclusion and all that. Having them in UUFPL felt fine, for whatever that’s worth