UU Nominations (Round 6)

[JabbaTheGriffin]

It's the time you've all been waiting for! The time has come to choose new BL Suspects based on Smogon's criteria for banning Pokemon from a metagame. As a reminder, these criteria are:

Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is BL if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

Defensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is BL if, in common battle conditions, it is able to wall and stall out a significant portion of the metagame.

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is BL if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

1. You can nominate as many suspects as possible, provided you give good reasoning. Please Bold the Pokemon you nominate as Suspects.
2. While we will not be imposing a limitation on the number of Suspects you choose to nominate, we ask you to keep it to a reasonable number of nominations in your post.
3. Use your own reasoning and not something like "I believe that Cherrim is BL because reachzero says so".
4. You can't nominate against a Pokemon, that is, you can't say "I don't want Honchkrow to be a Suspect".
5. Do not reply to other people's posts in this topic.
6. Depending on the quality of your arguments, your vote might not be counted. However, votes will be evaluated on a less technical, more common-sense basis than in previous Suspect nominations.
7. Only make one post. Edit all your Suspect nominations into that post.
8. Any posts that aren't nominating suspects will be deleted.
9. If you have any questions, please PM JabbaTheGriffin or reachzero.
10. Votes will not be counted until after this thread is closed.
11. While any and all users are open to nominations we ask for the sake of the integrity of the process that these votes be based on adequate experience and testing. Unlike previous tests, we will be utilizing Suspect Experience data (SEXP), so please do not attempt to nominate a Pokemon that you have not used or played against.
12. Don't be afraid to nominate Pokemon that have already been nominated.
13. It is an acceptable vote to bold vote "no Suspects". If you believe strongly that there are no Suspects in the current UU metagame, you may vote for no Pokemon to be Suspects.
14. Nominations close April 18th

 

[Erazor]

Froslass

I'll be using three main Froslass builds in this nom:

Froslass (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Snow Cloak
EVs: 248 HP/164 Def/96 Spd
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Ice Beam
- Pain Split

Froslass (F) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Snow Cloak
EVs: 4 Def/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Ice Beam
- Destiny Bond

and

Froslass (F) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Snow Cloak
EVs: 4 Def/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Spikes
- Shadow Ball
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
(or some variant thereof, Ice Shard can come in instead of any move except Ice Beam)

Notice something common here? Yeah, it's spikes.

Froslass has many, many opportunities to set up Spikes, as a lead or a mid game player. It can do this with a combination of typing, Speed, and reasonable bulk. Trick Scarf Uxie looking to cripple you? Thanks, that's 3 layers of spikes right there. Registeel? Spikes spikes spikes. Donphan? Spikes! And so on...

Now once you've put the spikes out there, you gotta keep 'em there. So, you need a spin blocker as well... oh wait. Froslass already blocks Rapid Spin. So in addition to setting up spikes, it makes sure that a spinner can't just walk in and remove them.

It can even Taunt Hitmontop and Blastoise to ensure that Foresight is unusable, and then outstall them with Pain Split.

So 2 questions now:

1) What makes Lass better than other spikers?
2) What makes Spikes so good anyway?

Well, to answer question one:

a)Froslass is faster than every other spiker, and can hence set up more layers
b)Froslass is a ghost, so it can block Rapid Spin
c)Froslass has Taunt, so Foresight fails against it
d)Froslass can "beat" every spinner with Pain Split + Ice Beam(Technitop beats Lass, however, it doesn't usually carry Rapid Spin)

And why are spikes so good in the first place?

Because they make sweepers like Swellow and Moltres much, much more dangerous. With Spikes, you suddenly realize that you can't switch anything on to Moltres, Swellow, and Rhyperior. Switch Milotic onto CB Rhyperior? Earthquake / Stone Edge OHKO with Spikes. Switch Milotic onto Moltres? HP Grass finishes it off after Spikes + Fire Blast. Swellow? After one U-turn, nothing can switch in. Raikou? Registeel can't switch in more than once if Spikes are on the ground. Same goes for Steelix.

Basically, what Froslass does is create a common battle condition to make it much easier for a whole bunch of sweepers to utterly and completely dominate. It does this consistently and reliably. This screams broken.

Of course, if this isn't reason enough to ban it, I'd like to mention Froslass in Hail with Substitute. "Bitch", "Slut", "Whore", "Motherfucker", and "Bastard" barely begin to describe it. Hail makes an already broken pokemon simply unplayable. Not to mention its Spikes make it much easier for a Hail team to stall out the opponent(Hi Stallrein).

That will be it.

---------------------------------------------------------

Raikou

Raikou has 115 SpAtk/Speed stats, a perfect build for a sweeper. It also has Calm Mind to boost that SAtk. Now, individually, it doesn't seem broken. But combine the two, and add to that the ease with which Raikou can set up, and you have an absolute monster on your hands.

I'm referring to this:

Raikou @ Leftovers
252Spe , 232 SpA, 24 Spdef, Timid
-Sub
-CM
-Thunderbolt
-Hidden Power Grass/Ice/Ground

One of the reasons Raikou is so deadly is that its so fast.Only Swellow, Sceptile, Electrode, Alakazam and scarfers outspeed him, and out of those, Electrode is only used as a lead.
It should also be noted that none of these pokemon bar Electrode and Sceptile can even switch in safely. So, the only option left is to use Scarfers to revenge kill. And depending whether Raikou is behind a sub or not, it might be for vain.
Also, revenging isn't a very valid argument. The very fact that you need to revenge it means that it has served its purpose.

The problem lies with Raikou's ease of setup. Of the ~55 UUs, Raikou can set up a sub on each water type, taking advantage of the fact that they don't stay in. Raikou can also set up on Choice Locked Sceptile, Venusaur, etc and set up a sub.
Once it's behind the substitute, it can set up Calm Minds until it feels like sweeping. With the given EVs, Raikou can set up subs on Mismagius Shadow Balls, Sceptile Energy balls and -2 Leaf Storms, Milotic Surfs, etc, and then just kill you from behind the sub.

Why should Raikou still be a suspect?

There are a couple of reasons. The first being:

Raikou @ Life Orb / Shuca Berry
Timid, 252 SpAtk, 252 Speed, 4 def
-Calm Mind
-Thunderbolt
-Extrasensory
-HP Water

Meet LO Kou, who is a monster against offensive teams, and is just beastly in general. It has the same opportunities to set up a Calm Mind as the SubCMer(bulky waters, -2 Leaf Storms, etc, etc), but hits much harder due to Life Orb. Venusaur switches into Thunderbolt? Hello, says Extrasensory. It gets worse when you realize that the few things that can beat Raikou(Chansey, Registeel) are easily taken out by Dugtrio. Also, Registeel takes ~30% from an unboosted Thunderbolt, and combined with spikes and SR, that ~61% dealt already. Try switching in again after that. As mentioned earlier, it's deadly against offensive teams due to its pace, power, and decent bulk, which allows it to take priority moves like Mach Punch and Aqua Jet.

Now, LO Kou is a relatively new discovery in the metagame. And he is a very dangerous discovery indeed, as teams now have to guess whether they are facing a SubCMer or a LO attacker, similar to Salamence in OU(who's tiering is being debated). Let me reiterate, this Raikou is just as devastating as the SubCMer, and is a complete dick to face for offensive teams.

Now, Raikou isn't "ZOMG UNSTOPPABLE BEAST"(though he comes close). The SubCMer does have one and a half hard counters(Chansey and Dugtrio), and a few checks depending on the hidden power it carries, like Venusaur, Registeel, and Steelix.

However, LOKou has no problems with Venusaur(Extrasensory) and Steelix since it runs HP Water. Registeel is taking ~30% from an unboosted Thunderbolt, and ~45% from a +1 Thunderbolt. This basically means that if there are Spikes on the ground(which is quite common), or taken a bit of prior damage, Registeel can only switch in once, and the next time, its toast. And believe me, Registeel will be taking prior damage, since it has to handle a huge amount of threats in the metagame. This ALSO forces it to run leftovers, which means - that's right - Dugtrio takes it out.

Speaking of Dugtrio, it has a rather easy time trapping and killing Chansey. So now your Raikou counter is gone. Have fun.

However, it's also stated that Dugtrio is a Raikou counter. While this is generally true, it will die if it comes in on Substitute or Hidden Power Grass / Water / Ice. Add to that the fact that Dugtrio is set up fodder for beasts like Rock polish Torterra, and you'll be getting swept regardless.

Anyway, having 2 counters and 2 checks is simply not good enough to keep Raikou in the tier.

Another couple of points to be noted -
1) When Raikou is setting up, it doesn't have to reach +6 to start causing trouble. Most of the time, a single Calm Mind is enough for it to sweep, at most it needs 2. And I have already shown that Raikou gets enough time to set up a Calm Mind.
2) Raikou is bulky and durable. It is not frail, like Swellow or Blaziken. This means that it IS going to stick around for the game, forcing your opponent to play conservatively and allowing you to dictate the game.

Based on the destructive effect of both these sets, and Raikou's unpredictability, Raikou is a dick and should be banned.

 

[d2m]

Raikou for Offensive Characteristic.

Raikou@Life Orb/Leftovers
252 SpA/252 Spe
Timid/Modest
-Calm Mind
-Thunderbolt
-Substitute/Shadow Ball
-Hidden Power Grass/Water/Ground

This set is such that the only great check to it is Dugtrio, but even he can't come in on a HP Grass/Water or Substitute. Otherwise, the checks depend entirely on which Hidden Power it carries, turning facing Raikou into playing Russian Roulette with the rest of your team. At +1, he 2HKOs the entire tier with a SE attack, bar Chansey and Registeel who are both further set up fodder, especially behind a substitute. Other than specially defensive Venusaur, Quagsire, and Steelix if he's carrying Hidden Power Grass, Water, or Grass respectively, there are no great checks to Raikou.

This normally wouldn't be a problem if he could be revenge killed, however, his base 115 Speed means he outspeeds damn near the entire tier, and all those he doesn't outspeed are OHKO'd so if he is behind a substitute and you have less than 2 people faster than him, you're screwed. His 90/75/100 defenses are enough to take any unboosted priority attack without too much trouble, and he destroys all the common users of priority attacks, like Toxicroak, Hitmontop, etc. This means you have to rely on a scarfed Earthquake (the only common SE attack against Raikou) which is so obvious that any flying type or levitater (Swellow being the most dangerous) will merely come in for free.

Stall's only reliable answer is Chansey, and she loses to Sub/CM. Offense relies on Swellow and Dugtrio most often to check Raikou, but if he gets a sub up he easily OHKOs both of them, so running them in combination is your only real hope.

I'd run all the calcs but a combination of it being done before, the strategydex being down, and it being 2 in the morning makes me think I've written enough for one night.

Ah, and as to why it was voted UU twice: Gallade was the bigger issue during the first test, and last test it was overshadowed by Cress and Scarf-Z. Raikou didn't really get a chance to shine with these other sweepers dominating the metagame. People simply overlooked Raikou because he wasn't being used as much as the aforementioned pokes, but now he's everywhere.

 

[Midnight.]

RE: Erazor

After some deliberation, I have decided on only one suspect this time around.

! Support Characteristic !

Froslass
I also nominate Froslass for the support characteristic. My thoughts are echoing those of Erazor's, and will likely be echoed by following posts. There are a number of viable Spikers available to UU, however Froslass is easily the most notorious and abused right now. The fist issue is her pace - base 110 speed leaves only a small handful of Pokemon able to prevent her from getting even one layer of spikes down (the few faster taunters, and some scarf sleepers). The next best usually allow 1-2 layers, with many players arguing that 2 layers is enough to be effective. Add the potential for Taunt and Destiny Bond and you are typically faced with either losing a Pokemon cheaply, or dealing with another layer of spikes. In my eyes she has shaped the metagame by either making teams prepare their leads for her, or preparing their teams to deal with her hazards.

In short, I think spikes are a dangerous tool in UU, but the thing (minus Froslass) that keeps them in check is the fact that the other spikes users do not get their jobs done with such ease/threat. This makes offensive Pokemon apparent offenders in the eyes of many, which I do not agree with. I'd have to see a round without so much free spiking before making any comment on offensive threats (even Raikou).

 

[whistle]

she said, "short but hopefully sweet" (when referring to these nominations)

Moltres under the Offensive Characteristic for its ridiculous Special Attack and decent Speed. Life Orb Moltres has a limited number of viable switch-ins due to the sheer power of its dual STABs; it 2HKOs everything that doesn’t resist either Fire or Flying, with the exception of Chansey, even without entry hazards. Resisting Flying but not Fire is largely pointless since Fire Blast’s base power is much higher than that of Air Slash; and the Rock Pokemon that resist both are almost all either OHKOed or 2HKOed (Regirock) by HP Grass. Basically, Moltres has decent Speed and hits an extremely large portion of the tier for high damage. What separates Moltres from other Pokemon that have similarly high Special Attack and Speed is Moltres’ typing, defensive stats, and Roost. Its typing lets it switch in pretty easily on Grass, Fighting, Ground, and Fire attacks (which are all quite common); since it has above-average 90/90/85 defenses, it can actually make good use of these resistances and immunity even without any defensive investment. Roost only serves to increase the effective of Moltres as a check to many Pokemon because it lets it heal off HP lost switching into these resisted attacks.

Stealth Rock is somewhat of a hinderance to Moltres but spinning isn’t too hard if you have a dedicated spinner or even two, and Moltres also has Roost to compensate for lost HP. Even with the presence of Stealth Rock, it just means you need to be more careful when switching in Moltres; it’s still extremely dangerous. Finally, let me be clear: Moltres does have several safe switch-ins (Chansey, SpD Milotic, Slowking, among a few others), but the list is both too small and too narrow (defensive Pokemon only).

Raikou under the Offensive Characteristic for its great Special Attack, Speed, and access to Calm Mind. While there are quite a few Pokemon that can claim to take on individual Raikou sets, the list of complete counters is quite slim (not considering counters for the RestTalk sets, just for the SubCM and CM LO sets). Chansey, Registeel, and Umbreon are probably the only Pokemon that hard counter any Raikou, while Dugtrio is almost as good as a counter. Ground and Grass Pokemon can be easily worked around with variouis Hidden Power choices or Extrasensory, which means they aren’t reliable counters. Its checks include Alakazam, Sceptile, and Swellow (who are naturally faster) and physically-based Choice Scarf users, as well as priority users like Azumarill, Arcanine, and Hitmontop. Raikou’s natural bulk means it finds plenty of setup opportunities on special attackers, and also means it is harder to revenge kill or check.

The list of conditions that must be satisfied for a Raikou sweep is by no means small, but in my opinion that’s the wrong way to look at the situation. While it’s hard to guarantee that you’ll sweep with Raikou, it’s even harder to guarantee that Raikou won’t sweep you—which is the true issue. It’s hard to make teams that are reliably safe from Raikou; if it is running the other set from the one you expect (out of the two common ones) or if it is running a Hidden Power that smacks around your checks for 2x (or not uncommonly even 4x) damage, suddenly your team that is weak to that specific Raikou. In terms of the difference between the sets, priority attacks and Choice Scarfers work a lot better against Life Orb Raikou due to entry hazards, while Pokemon that depend on resistances or immunities (Ground and Grass Pokemon) work a lot better against the SubCM set. Finally, the few defensive Pokemon that can take on all Raikou sets are by their very nature responsive—they can make it harder for Raikou to sweep, but are vulnerable to trapping or pseudo-trapping or are extremely exploitable by setup or double switches, which means they aren’t ideal solutions.

Raikou deserves a retest due to the newfound popularity of the Life Orb + Calm Mind set. In December, January, and February, that set had respective usages of 21.4%, 22.2%, and 19.2%, while in March it was used on 37.2% of Raikou. If I had to guess I would say this was due to a combination of old standards remaining standards, Honchkrow (Sucker Punch), Calm Mind Moonlight Cresselia (stalls out via Life Orb recoil and Psychic), and the set not being truly “discovered” and popularized. This is important for two reasons; first, since the set was relatively rare, I don’t think voters put much weight into it while determining their vote and constructing paragraphs and instead focused on the Sub + Calm Mind set; second, its popularity on the ladder means offensive Raikou sets are now much more unpredictable and are harder to counter.

Froslass under the Support Characteristic for its Spikes. The important thing here is to consider what Froslass has over other Spikers since it’s probably universally accepted that Spikes are good and getting them automatically is broken.

First, its typing and Speed gives it more reliability and stability in controlling when Spikes get put up and how many layers go up. The typing means it’s almost always obvious when a dangerous move is coming (since they usually have to be STAB in addition to super effective and also backed by a high Attack or decent Special Attack stat), so Froslass won’t be surprised like an Omastar or Cloyster might get surprised by a HP Grass. Its high Speed gives offense players more control over whether they want to sacrifice a specific portion of Froslass’s HP in exchange for an extra layer of Spikes, or even if they want to sacrifice all of its HP in exchange for the first layer. This decision is left in the hands of the opposing player or the team matchup for most of the other Spikers in UU. Obviously, Pain Split helps it heal and stay alive.

Second, its Ghost subtype and support moves allow it to perform as a primary spinblocker on offensively minded teams or as a secondary spinblocker on defensive teams. This gives the player much more flexibility when team building because it means the slot of “Spikes protector” is already filled. It also prevents Pokemon from using Foresight in its face or from setting up on it (which can be very important for offensive teams). Froslass’s combination of flexibility and momentum setting ability combined with the inherent danger of Spikes makes it a suspect.

Dugtrio under the Support Characteristic for Arena Trap. It can trap and kill a wide range of defensive Pokemon, including Chansey, Registeel, Arcanine, and Drapion from full HP and finish off many other common defensive walls like Rhyperior, Steelix, Venusaur, and Omastar from around half HP. Its ability prevents such Pokemon from switching out, which allows Dugtrio to easily eliminate counters for one or more of its teammates (Raikou, Swellow, Mismagius, Alakazam, or Moltres among others) which in turn lets them sweep much easier.

Claims that LO Dugtrio is setup bait for Pokemon like Torterra and Leafeon kind of confuse me because Donphan, Rhyperior, and even Milotic are also setup bait for the same Pokemon and no one goes around touting that as a reason they suck. From a SC perspective, the only thing that matters is how easily Dugtrio can trap and beat opposing defensive pivots—something it does extremely and arguably too well.

I don’t actually think all these Pokemon are BL but I obviously do think that they should all be suspects.

 

[Banedon]

Nominating Stealth Rock and Spikes under the Support characteristic.

There're a few things to address:

1. Are Stealth Rock and Spikes powerful?
2. Are Stealth Rock and Spikes easy to get on the battlefield?
3. Is the metagame better off without them?
4. What about Toxic Spikes?

***

The first question: are Stealth Rock and Spikes powerful?

I'm going to steal part of Erazor's post here ...

And why are spikes so good in the first place?

Because they make sweepers like Swellow and Moltres much, much more dangerous. With Spikes, you suddenly realize that you can't switch anything on to Moltres, Swellow, and Rhyperior. Switch Milotic onto CB Rhyperior? Earthquake / Stone Edge OHKO with Spikes. Switch Milotic onto Moltres? HP Grass finishes it off after Spikes + Fire Blast. Swellow? After one U-turn, nothing can switch in. Raikou? Registeel can't switch in more than once if Spikes are on the ground. Same goes for Steelix.

Spikes and Stealth Rock especially are tremendous forces in the current metagame, and have been since forever. Offensive Pokemon welcome their presence because it means they now have to deal less damage to OHKO / 2HKO their opponents. Furthermore, if the counters to these offensive Pokemon lack reliable recovery, it's only a matter of time before they are worn down. Defensive Pokemon also welcome their presence because if entry hazards are on the field, opponents that switch in and out suffer for doing so. They're so powerful that people run the otherwise-useless move Rapid Spin just to get rid of them, and sometimes Foresight's thrown into the mix as well. There are dedicated leads to get up entry hazards, as well as dedicated leads to stop other leads from getting up entry hazards. Their importance is further underlined by the lengths people go to keep them on the field: spinblockers and sometimes double ghosts, for example. Also (I bet) half the people in this thread are going to nominate Froslass, primarily for laying and keeping Spikes on the field, showing the power of entry hazards.

It doesn't take a genius to see how effective entry hazards are at helping a sweep, because I'm sure if you play Pokemon you'll have seen it. 3 layers of Spikes + Stealth Rock totals 37.5% damage each time you switch a Pokemon in. That's 1/3 of a Pokemon's health! Sure, it takes 4 turns to set up, but even though getting all that on the battlefield is a rare sight, getting just Stealth Rock up is much less difficult. Even with just Stealth Rock up, you are hindered each time you switch Pokemon, especially if you don't have Leftovers recovery, and even more so if you are weak / quadruply weak to Rock. That's one big reason why walls weak to Rock like Articuno aren't very viable (OK, so Articuno is a rather oxymoronic defensive Ice Pokemon, but whatever). On the offensive side, Stealth Rock shears off major HP from sweepers like Moltres, Swellow and Arcanine. Although not critical, it does limit their switch-ins, and Pokemon like Scyther are far less viable thanks to the weakness.

I think there's no question that entry hazards are powerful. They are so powerful that almost everyone uses them. Spikes is less common since fewer Pokemon can set them up, but a team without Stealth Rock is quite the uncommon sight indeed.

***

The second question: are Stealth Rock and Spikes easy to get on the battlefield?

They certainly are. Walls like Registeel and Chansey can put up Stealth Rock, and so can other sturdy supporters like Uxie. You just bring your supporter in against something they wall / can survive, which is almost certain to happen at some point in the game, and put up Stealth Rock. Spikes is similar, and I'll leave it to other posters to write how Froslass lays it. There are leads whose job is to put entry hazards up, e.g. Uxie / Omastar. There are even leads whose job is to put them up and die (Froslass).

There is another facet of this question, and that is whether or not entry hazards are easy to keep on the field. An argument can be made both ways. If one side is intent on keeping them down, while all the other side has is a simple Rapid Spin, then they certainly are easy to keep on the field. On the other hand, if the other side is intent on removing them from the field and packs Foresight / Pokemon with Pursuit, then they can be removed. It takes effort to do so both ways. Nonetheless even if entry hazards are removed, Stealth Rock especially can typically be set up again. The opportunity will come, as it came when Stealth Rock was first laid down (to be fair though, advantage might have been lost when this happens).

The only conclusion is that laying down entry hazards is very easy. Keeping it on the field is more difficult, and can be a highly contested affair. Nonetheless people who use Moltres for example almost always carry a Rapid Spinner because they can safely assume that Stealth Rock will be up at some point of the game.

***

The third question: is the metagame better off without them?

This is highly controversial, and removing something that's so deeply entrenched into teams will leave massive repercussions. Nonetheless, I feel the metagame is indeed better off without them. There are a few reasons:

1. Entry hazards dissuade double switching, which in turn dissuades prediction. Per the characteristics of a desirable metagame, this violates the "skill clause".
2. Entry hazards seriously restrict some Pokemon. Stealth Rock especially is guilty of heavily restricting Pokemon weak to it. Lots of Pokemon spring to mind: Charizard, Articuno, even never-used Pokemon like Vespiqueen. All these Pokemon have potential if they weren't so badly disabled by Stealth Rock. Spikes favour Pokemon who levitate or fly, e.g. Uxie over Registeel. Nonetheless the balanced nature of Spikes, dealing equal damage to everyone, means its effect is less pronounced. Also Shedinja is utterly destroyed by either entry hazard (zero usefulness).
3. Because Stealth Rock hurts so many Pokemon, not having Stealth Rock means an instant upsurge in options here because all these originally weak Pokemon are suddenly viable. By the variety characteristic of a desirable metagame, this is something we want.
4. Entry hazards ruin Focus Sash, an item that could otherwise be used to counter Pokemon that's already set-up. For an example, look at this warstory. Vader's Croagunk had gotten two Nasty Plots and was all ready to fully sweep eric's team, but the Diglett with Focus Sash saves the day. If Focus Sash were viable (no entry hazards) then it would be significantly harder to sweep the other team all at one go.

One major problem with removing entry hazards is that it hurts one playstyle very badly: stall, and hence counteracts the same variety characteristic that more viable Pokemon would cause. I personally believe stall will still be viable if entry hazards are removed, albeit massively weaker. Here is an example. Sitzmark / Eo plays a defensive (stallish) team that, despite never getting up Stealth Rock, manages to threaten Legacy Raider. This indicates that you can play defensively without using entry hazards, although you will have to take a more active approach. In another testament of how powerful entry hazards are, if Sitzmark had managed to get up entry hazards Legacy Raider would've been in hot soup, and the cut and parry part of the game that's so lauded would've been severely limited.

I think that in spite of removing entry hazards being a massive blow against stall, I think removing Stealth Rock and Spikes makes for a more desirable metagame.

***

The fourth question: what about Toxic Spikes?

To be honest, I don't know. One can certainly make a case for Toxic Spikes under the Support characteristic, but there are several major differences with regular Spikes and Stealth Rock. Toxic Spikes can be used as a defensive tool, shortening Pokemon like Raikou's sweeping time. It can also be used offensively, to weaken incoming walls ... however, some of the best defensive Pokemon in the tier are immune to Toxic Spikes (Registeel, Uxie) or have Natural Cure (Chansey), so it is less effective in that sense. Still, Toxic Spikes work on other defensive Pokemon like Slowbro and Tangrowth, thus aiding a sweep. That's why I said one can make a case for Toxic Spikes under the support characteristic.

There's more as well. Toxic Spikes doesn't punish you at once for switching in, it punishes you gradually (how fast depends on how many layers are up). By poisoning your opponent, you give him status protection. You may also trigger Marvel Scale or Guts or Quick Feet, which is not good. Status can be removed by clerics or Rest, so if the Toxic Spikes are spun away its effect may not last. Removing Toxic Spikes is a lot easier than other entry hazards; you only need a grounded poison type and your opponent can't do anything about it. And finally you can only be hit by Toxic Spikes once. After you are afflicted, you can switch in as though Toxic Spikes weren't up.

I think overall Toxic Spikes is relatively less dangerous an entry hazard compared to Stealth Rock and Spikes. It hurts teams with no spinner / grounded poison type that relies on grounded walls / sweepers. Still, to patch up this weakness there are quite a few good grounded poison types that one can use. Venusaur for example is the most common Pokemon in UU, while other Pokemon like Drapion are reasonably effective sweepers / walls. Venusaur's prominence is one reason Toxic Spikes is so much rarer than the other entry hazards for example. I think therefore Toxic Spikes can stay for now - if eventually it proves overwhelming, then perhaps it can be nominated under the Support characteristic.

 

[ZapdosBlitz]

I'm nominating:
Froslass

Under Support Characteristic
There's one reason Froslass should be suspect,Spikes.Spikes is easily one of the most dangerous entry hazard when factoring that there are only a few levitators/flyers exist in UU.It's easily help many sweeper for example Moltres and Raikou to beat it's dedicated counter (Milotic and Registeel,like what Erazor pointed out).Because with spikes on the field,these counter cannot switching into said sweeper freely without risking being KOed or severely weakened

Now why Froslass is broken?There's some reason for this,first of all it's base 110 speed that is only rivaled by few pokes in UU,make it very easy to get-up 1-2 layer of spikes and also can help shut down any user of Foresight with taunt,second,the ghost typing allow it to set-up spikes while also blocking any attempt to spin at the same time.This two main reason makes Froslass consistently lay spikes,something other spikers can't boast.

So what's the impact Froslass gives to the metagame?First of all it force many teams to very well prepared with Spikes,from lead only allow 1 layer of spikes to Froslass,faster taunter or spinner.I've seen many offensive team that forced to use rapid spinner only to get rid of those spikes that otherwise will be a major problem.It's also force some teams to have two or hell even 3 check for one dangerous threat seeing that Spikes will really help many sweeper to beat it's most common counter.

 

[leonmachar]

nomination:

froslass
under support:
froslass is one of the most used leads for two reasons its amazing 110 base speed and spikes. With that combination it easily sets up 2-3 layers of spikes which extremely helps sweepers raikou moltres and others to kill of their counters without even taking a hit or at least badly damage them. Next reason is taunt which shuts down other leads trying to lay entry hazards after that , froslass can easily take down the oposing lead with destiny bond or she might switch for later game to block rapid spin and again take oponents rapid spiner out.

the only thing that really can easily stop her is anti lead moltres but in that situation froslass switches and sets spikes up later.

How froslass is efecting the metagame? Well with froslass around almost every team has to carry a rapid spiner also I rarely see a team which doesnt have have at least two pokemon to take care of this monster. I've tested froslass myself and I can say if froslass is gone many other leads that arent used only because of her will shine.

Conclusion: froslass in common battle conditions can and will set up a situation which makes other pokemon a lot easier to sweep

 

[The SPrinkLer]

I'd like to nominate Froslass under the Support Characteristics, due to the fact it sets up Spikes very reliably. This is what makes sweepers like Moltres and Raikou on the verge of being broken. The spikes support is deadly for offensive teams, and deadly playing against Spikes teams. Froslass is even able to spin-block its own spikes, as well as stop foresight users with Taunt. If it switches in on the foresight, you can just use another ghost that will likely benefit greatly from froslass' spikes as well, such as mismagius. froslass could be compared to deoxy-e in ubers, but that isn't a balanced metagame, but uu strives to be. that's all i have to say.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

I'm getting behind Moltres and the Offensive Characteristic. I placed Moltres in the lead slot with a Life Orb for a majority of my games, and let me tell you, if I forced a switch immediately I took down two Pokemon before they forced me out (assuming my Fire Blasts didn't miss). Even after forced out, spinning the rocks was very easy with Foresight Hitmontop, and then once it can come back in it's round 2 of killing another two Pokemon. So much of the metagame is weak to his STABs, and HPGrass in a coverage move maims everything else. It maims a significant portion of the metagame with its powerful attacks, and to play around it requires far too many sacrifices. This thing needs to go.

I am also going to support nomination for Froslass under the Support Characteristic. Surprisingly, I didn't see it as often as I was expecting (and refused to use the damned thing), but every time it did pop up spikes were all over the place and I was hard-pressed to not lose something trying to find a way to kill it through Destiny Bond. The fact that it can so reliably set down Spikes, which chip large chunks away from Pokemon like Regirock and Registeel that lack effective and reliable recovery, and then kill something when it goes down is too much for the metagame. Her Spikes support makes sweeps and forced switches from the likes of the above nominated Moltres even easier, as now you can't even switch in your checks anymore because of the combination of high-powered attacks and residual damage.

I am nominating Dugtrio as BL on the Support Characteristic as well. This wasn't something I was expecting, honestly, when I first started playing this round, but it came to grow as time moved on. The problem with Dugtrio, I believe, isn't Dugtrio itself, but rather the metagame it dominates within. Regirock and Registeel all lack reliable means of recovery, so they cannot afford to be running a Shed Shell over Leftovers. Dugtrio, meanwhile, easily switches into their support moves and murders them with its Banded EQ's. This is much unlike OU where things like Skarmory and Forretress have their own healing in Roost or can pick up easy Wish support oand serve a more Spike-laying, supportive role. Dugtrio can easily and consistently set up a situation where it nets key kills against any team and then subsequently set up easy sweeps for other members of its team. In lieu of this, I feel this nomination appropriate.

That's all for this round. Cheers.

 

[dbcb]

Nominate Frosslass under Support Characteristic

This set:

Timid
248 HP / 228 Def / 32 Spe
Choice Scarf/leftovers

~ Spikes
~ Taunt / Trick
~ Pain Split
~ Ice Beam

This set guarantees 2 layers of spikes as all it needs is one switch in to do that. Which isn't hard due to its typing. If a player plays more conservative with it, it will get in all three layers and possible even cripple another by tricking a scarf.

Due to this sets bulk and access to pain split, it easily acts as its own spin blocker. the three main spin blockers in UU are beaten by this set. Hitmontop can be taunted or tricked depending on the move you are using. Ice beam or pain split scares off Donphan. And blastoise is complete set up fodder, or can be tricked the scarf, or can be severely weakened by pain split.

Spikes is what is making so many other pokemon seem broken/unstoppable. It reduces the checks and counters to LO Moltres to near zero. It weakens Raikou's few counters to the point they don't become counters anymore. It makes CB Rhyperior impossible to swith into. It makes it so Dugtrio can get the OHKO's it needs to allow Raikou/Moltres/Any sweeper to rape your team.

(And although it is not really a good argument, it can be said that the only reason Frosslass is even still around is due to the fact PZ and Cress were so broken that everyone wanted them gone and were focusing on them that they didn't bother with writing in Frosslass.)

 

[yond]

During my test i found that the only pokemon in question were Dugtrion and Froslass. With their support they made sweepers like Moltres and Raikou godly to the tier. So far that people see them as suspects.

Dugtrio:

Dugtrio is a suspect under the support characteristic, because of his ability to trap and kill large portions of the tiers defensive threats. Once Dugtrio switches in the opponent can't switch until Dugtrio is off the field and that is key to why he is a suspect. As stated above by Dragon Boy he can render Chansey, Registeel, Arcanine, Regirock and Drapion completely. Dugtrio can also come into Venusaur that has health less than 58& and takes care of it, and Steelix that has less than 56% as well. Basically, if a team has any of these pokemon ( Chansey, Registeel, Venusaur at desired 58% ,etc) as soon as Dugtrio sees an opportunity to switch in or if he revenges it doesnt matter, because these threats are gone. This paves the way for huge offensive threats to make quick and easy work of teams, namely, NP Mismagius, CM Raikou, LO Moltres, Burn Orb Swellow. Though there are more i decided to name these few as they seem to be the most common and destructive in the metagame when i have played. As for whether or not Dugtrio is set-up bait for two maybe three sweepers in todays metagame or not, he is not the only pokemon like this and he it also has nothing to do with whether or not he is a BL supporter.

Froslass:

Froslass is easily the best spiker that can be used and he fits under the support characteristic. He has access to a massive range of moves and has the effective typing to pull off its job. Notable moves include: Spikes, Taunt, Destiny Bond, Pain Split. So in that set Froslass as a lead can set up entry hazards, render other set ups leads ( if they are slower ), recover lost HP, or take another pokemon with it if necessary. Then i look at its Ghost typing. This is huge. The only spinners now that can get rid of the layers of spikes are ones that carry foresight (which is very few). Then i look at Froslass's stats, namely its speed stat. Base 110 is elite in the UU metagame and you don't see many leads that beat it. The only lead that out speed's it would be Ambipom if i recall correctly and Froslass resists its main stab while a thunderbolt or ice beam heading back 2HKO. What this means is that Froslass is able to outspeed all other leads, render them unable to set up, set up on them, and either recover or take care of on of the opponents team members. Froslass is definitely BL under the support characteristic.

cheers!

 

[Heysup]

I will start by nominating Raikou for its, in my opinion, most dangerous set, the Substitute + Calm Mind set.

Simply, the same arguments for Raikou that were valid last round are valid this round. Does Raikou still have the same liability, known as Chansey, as it's one "hard counter"? Yes. Does Raikou still have the same group of approximately 6, easily removable or passable checks? Yes.

What has changed?

Cresselia left - not much of an effect on Raikou except for the fact that Raikou could set up on Cresselia.

Porygon-Z left - again, set up fodder for Raikou, but not much of an effect otherwise.

Raikou, as it stands, can still set up on approximately 44% of the top 50 (as I show in my paragraphs that still resembles this current metagame, give or take a few Pokemon). This is "common battle conditions".

When Raikou is set up, it's checks are no longer checks. Add in something like 1 layer of Spikes support, and Pokemon such as Venusaur and Registeel will no longer check Raikou at all. This is sweeping with little-to-no effort.

Offense is forced to run ridiculous moves like Earthquake on Venusaur to check Raikou. Choice Scarfed Earthquake from 200 Atk is a very very bad move to be throwing around, for obvious reasons. Not to mention, Scarf checks will drop after 1-2 switch-ins.

In previous rounds, Raikou has been voted UU twice, mistakenly in my opinion. When reading the paragraphs of the other voters, all I could think of is what they were overlooking, and that is Raikou's longevity and the overall shakyness of the suggested checks. Raikou isn't like Absol or Swellow who faint at the drop of a pin. If you switch Raikou in, and your opponent has a Venusaur, it will be hit by a Hidden Power Ice or Extrasensory for respectable damage, and then it will be switched out at approximately 87% while Venusaur is going to run out of Synthesis or flat out faint from continuous super effective hits. Chansey in particular is very overrated. You don't need a specialized Pokemon like Dugtrio to take it out, you can simply run any Pokemon with Pursuit. Better yet, run a wall breaker like Rhyperior or Blaziken to destroy the opponent's team as they frantically try to check Raikou and thus give you a free attack with your wall breaker. Raikou is sticking around and will not be dealt with by just checking it with weak Pokemon. Similar to the arguments against revenge killing, checking is really not a valid counter-argument if the Pokemon doing the checking is not threatening at all. Chansey is an example of such a Pokemon.

All in all, even though Raikou has been voted UU twice already, but it has really proven that it definitely BL material based on the offensive characteristic.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hide

Ok yea that's it I'm not forgetting anything am I?

Am I......?

Oh yea!!!! I almost forgot to nominate Froslass. What kind of fool would do that? A very foolish fool indeed.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would like to nominate Froslass under the support characteristic because of reasons outlined in my previous paragraphs, but I will clearly explain why it is still relevant.

Recall from my paragraphs:

I have shown that Spikes are fairly easy to set up, and fairly easy to keep on the field with only Froslass.

And Ì have shown that "easy" Spikes as a common battle condition are broken because:

Moltres has roughly 15-16 "viable" switch ins without Spikes. That sounds reasonable, no?

After Spikes, Moltres has a grand total of, well, 3 safe switch ins. One of which is Chansey, one is Altaria, and one is Azumarill. Azumarill is beaten by Hidden Power on a prediction (OHKOed with Spikes + Stealth Rock), and Alataria does jack shit to Moltres while it hopes for an Air Slash miss before a flinch / crit. Not going to happen.

And then you have Chansey. Not only is it a liability against most offensive teams, it is also possibly 2HKOed by Fire Blast.

Now, this begs the question, "so what if Moltres is broken". It isn't, and since I should avoid posting "anti-nomination" material, I will simply remind you that still applies for Swellow as well, meaning Moltres is just a convenient example.

Swellow, has approximately 24-25 safe switch ins.

After spikes, and one U-turn, this number drops to four Pokemon. And guess what, after another U-turn, it drops down to one. Sure, Swellow takes Stealth Rock damage, but Swellow at 50% is very capable of sweeping an entire team.

What has changed?

Not much. Cresselia and Porygon came and went. Gallade left. Honchkrow left. Two Pokemon that Froslass has a decent amount of trouble against have been banned. Has the metagame shifted? Yes. Venusaur is everywhere. Who abuses the hell out of Venusaur? Froslass. I think you can clearly see that Froslass is still fully capable of doing what it has always been doing.

 

[franky]

Nomming Froslass and Dugtrio

Froslass under "support"

To simply put it, Froslass sets up Spikes way too easily. What separates it from other Spikers like Omastar and Cloyster? Firstly, it has part Ghost-type meaning it can set up on Rapid Spinners with near-impunity as most spinners would resort to using Foresight. However, Taunt remedies this and shuts them down completely meaning they have to use their attacks to take down Froslass. Secondly, Froslass has Destiny Bond and blistering Speed, meaning its difficult to prevent Spikes from being dropped due to the fear of dying from Destiny Bond. In a nutshell, Froslass can set up Spikes way too easily with a simple Destiny Bond + Taunt + Spikes set.

Dugtrio under "support"

Dugtrio is perhaps one of the best supporters in the game right now. With its Arena Trap ability, Dugtrio can break apart sturdy defensive cores with relative ease, which can eventually help a team mate to sweep much easier. Being known for trapping Special walls like Chansey and Registeel, it can also be an effective trapper for offense Pokemon and weakened Pokemon. With such a high Speed, it is almost guaranteed to eliminate a Grounded offensive Pokemon. In the end, Dugtrio supports way too easily with its "broken" ability Arena Trap. To put it in other words, once Dugtrio is in there is no going out and you are bound to faint.

 

[MetaGross66]

I'd like to nominate Dugtrio, Raikou, and Froslass for Suspect.

Dugtrio belongs in BL under the support characteristic. It is easily known as one of the best trappers in UU with its ability to come in on pokemon like Registeel and Chansey and KO them. The specific set being mentioned is the LO set. Not only does it make it harder for the opponent to set up on the user unlike the CB set, but it also gives that required power to 2KO the aforementioned pokemon in exchange for some survivability. In a way, the exchange is helpful making it easier to bring in your sweeper like Raikou or Moltres and begin bashing the opponent with super powered STABs. Therefore, Dugtrio should definitely be considered a Suspect.

Froslass also belongs in BL under the support characteristic. It can run several really effective sets, but its ability to lay down Spikes with almost unparalleled speed puts it too far ahead of its fellow UU companions. The ghost typing blocks Rapid Spin while Taunt protects it from Foresight and forces people to use spinners that can actually damage it such as Donphan and Blastoise. Even then, Froslass can take a few hits from both and continue setting up while getting a KO in Donphan's case. Afterward, an onslaught of fast and powerful sweepers will be more than enough to prevent the aforementioned Pokemon from switching in; especially since they are grounded, and therefore take damage from Spikes.

Last is Raikou which I'm going to nominate under the offensive characteristic. Its most dangerous set, in my opinion is the Life Orb set. This set has few safe switchins. Venusaur alone was put to the top of UU because of this legendary beast. It sweeps with little to no effort at all. After Spikes and a little support (Dugtrio, a few lures, and Froslass alone could provide it) Raikou has no counters. This is huge when deciding upon nominating a Suspect. Its so-called "hard counters", Registeel and Chansey, are both capable of being trapped and killed by Dugtrio making it far more difficult to run a Stall team that doesn't get run over by Raikou. Offense has to either be faster or suffer a terrible defeat even without support which makes me kind of sad. It is capable of taking out a whole playstyle. In all, something as terrible as this cat really needs to leave UU.

 

[PK Gaming]

Nominations.

I am nominating Froslass under the support characteristic.

Hide

A Pokémon is BL if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

Froslass is a rather interesting pokemon. It's stats suggest that of an offensive pokemon, with an offensive movepool to support those claims. Froslass however is used mostly as a support pokemon. Froslass is the fastest user's of spikes in the entire UU metagame and it can abuse it's speed for great success. What that impressive speed, Froslass is often guaranteed at least one layer of spikes against most of the UU metagame. It is very efficient as a lead (or outside of it) capable of setting up many layers of spikes against opposing leads. The suicide lead in particularly is very dangerous due to it's ability to almost always guarantee a KO with Destiny bond.

What truly seperates Froslass from other spikers (Omastar, Cloyster) is her exclusive Ghost typing. Froslass is the only pokemon in UU (perhaps the entire game) capable of laying down spikes AND spin block. Furthermore, Froslass is capable of beating all but 2 of UU's dedicated spinners (Blastoise and Hitmontop) and even then they are capable of being stopped by Taunt.

Froslass is extremely efficient at supporting many of UU's most powerful sweepers due to the effects of spikes. Often times, counters to these powerful threats are worn down into KO ranges for said sweepers.
Froslass is can increase the efficiency of her spin blocking prowess by pairing herself up with another ghost type to form a deadly *double ghost* strategy. Finally, Froslass is a nightmare in hailstorm teams. Capable of abusing her ability *Snow Cloak* along with substitute, that are often difficult to break due to boosted evasion in hail. Under these conditions, Froslass is easily capable of laying down spikes without stop.

I am nominating Raikou under the Offensive charateristic.

Hide

A Pokémon is BL if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

Raikou is perhaps the most sweeper in UU by far. It has excellent stats (115/115 Speed/Special Attack) and while it's movepool is shallow, it has more than enough to quite literally muscle it's way through entire metagame.

Raikou trademark set is the calm minder sweeper set. Raikou can absolutely devastate teams when boosted by a Calm Mind and a Life orb and it's ability to setup on many pokemon in UU should not be ignored. Raikou, unlike most speedy and powerful sweepers is actually somewhat bulky
(90/75/100) and can shrug off a weaker special attacks with ease. After a couple of calm minds, he is incapable of being broken by most special attacks, and can utilize that towards his fullest potential.

Raikou literally outspeeds the entire metagame with the exception of 3 pokemon and scarfers. These pokemon are: Dugtrio, Swellow and Sceptile. Only Sceptile can reliably switch into Raikou because Dugtrio risks a substitute or a Hidden power grass/ice, and Swellow risks a thunderbolt.

The main problem with Raikou is that lacks any counters for offense. Simply put, if you lack a Scarfer, and or the aforementioned 3 pokemon, your team will be devastated by Raikou. Sticking in a direct Raikou counter into an offensive team is normally seen as terrible idea, because it slows down the team greatly but is often employed simply because Raikou is that great threat.

Raikou has a grand total of 2 hard counters; Chansey and Registeel.
Now ignoring the fact that Dugtrio can easily take out these two pokemon, Raikou is infact capable of wearing down Registeel. A Life Orb boosted Thunderbolt deals 29.1%-34.6% to a Registeel. Raikou is easily capable of switching out, and without a reliable form of recovery (outside of leftovers) Registeel is incapable of taking repeated assaults. Worse still, entry hazards wear away at Registeel even more and put him into KO range. Chansey beats all of Raikou's offensive threats with ease, but is defeated by Raikou's Restalker set.

Raikou's sheer amount of power and lack of counters (especially on offense) is what demonstrates exactly why it's Borderline material.


*Note: I have always thought of Raikou as Bordeline material. Why do I think it was voted BL two times in a row? Cresselia simply overshadowed it during the last suspect test. I have no reason as to why it was voted BL BEFORE that (since I didn't play UU then) but I will most likely edit that.

 

[Bad Ass]

I'm nominating Froslass, Moltres, and Raikou.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
​

Froslass under the Support Characteristic.

"A Pokémon is BL if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep" to be clear.

Froslass easily fits under the support characteristic for this set.

Froslass (F) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Snow Cloak
EVs: 4 Atk/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Hasty nature (+Spd, -Def)
- Spikes
- Shadow Ball
- Ice Shard
- Thunderbolt

Look at the top five most common leads. Opposing Froslass are killed by Shadow Ball + Ice Shard, leaving you with, at worst, one hp and no taunt up. Unless you send out something with 351+ speed (four pokemon), you get a layer of spikes. Against Ambipom, you will get one layer unless they have Taunt, and you can switch out with your sash intact if they don't have Taunt and Pursuit. Against Uxie, you get as many spikes as you want until they finally switch. You get two layers of spikes against Life Orb Moltres, and you get one against Scarf Moltres with 1% to come in later and lay spikes against all of the pokemon who don't beat it speed wise. Electrode will likely Taunt and Rain Dance, while Shadow Ball is a 3hko. The main problem here is the ease of which it gets and keeps up the spikes. Since Frosslass is also a ghost type, you can't send out a spinner to spin away whatever it's doing. Froslass alone isn't broken, however, it's what it breaks when using spikes. Moltres can now easily 2hko pokemon such as Milotic, Slowbro, and even Chansey with enough spikes down. Raikou just needs to fire off a few unboosted Thunderbolts to beat all of it's so called checks with residual damage. Swellow's counters are all affected by Spikes, and if it can just U-turn out once, the counters are 2hkoed next time they come in. None of this is possible without the spikes Froslass provides!

But wait! Omastar, Cloyster, and even Qwilfish can set up multiple layers of spikes; Omastar can also set up Stealth Rock, Cloyster can spin opposing hazards away, and Qwilfish can explode. So what makes Froslass more broken then all of these other spikers? It's a couple of things. Firstly, none of the other spikers can beat Blastoise, Donphan, and Hitmontop reliably; You can make a case for Blastoise losing to Cloyster, Donphan to Omastar, etc. but none of them beats them all as easily as Froslass does. She can also block the rapid spin that they may try, and either set up more spikes or possibly Taunt the set up move. Froslass also has a nearly unrivaled 110 base speed, meaning that a grand total of five pokemon can actually outspeed it. Five pokemon that can hit it before it uses spikes. To sum it all up, it is the only spiker that blocks rapid spin and beats the majority of spinners, it breaks multiple pokemon after it spikes, and it is faster then a lot of the tier.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
​

Moltres under the OC.

"A Pokémon is BL if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort." to be clear

Moltres @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 HP/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Fire Blast
- Air Slash
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Roost

Moltres boasts base 125 specia l attack, which is the highest in the tier bar Alakazam, Espeon, and Glaceon. Moltres also boasts a respectable base 90 speed, which means that all of the base 80 pokemon that plague uu are outsped. Let's go over moltres' "safe" switch ins. I won't include it if it is 2hkoed after SR and one layer of Spikes.

Chansey - Arguably the safest, will not be 2hkoed without 3 layers of spikes and Stealth Rock.

Azumarill - Won't be OHKOd without all the hazards down, but suffers 57% minimum from HP Grass. While it is 2hkoed, it has Aqua Jet to force it out.

Slowking - While Slowkings that sacrifice some special defense to put in defense for sponging Flare Blitzes and the like, ones that invest heavily in special defense do just fine.

Milotic - 252 / 56 Calm Milotic suffers 38% from Hidden Power Grass, which equates to 95% after the second one, 89% if you add the second leftovers turn.

As you can see, Moltres has four safe switch ins. One is 2hkoed no matter what, and the other two suffer high eighties of percentage damage. Chansey is a pretty hard counter, however Chansey is viable only on stall teams due to it only being able to attack with Seismic Toss and dying to most physical attacks. Regirock is an okay counter, but HP Grass screws it over big time, as a little note. Moltres' main issue lies in Stealth Rock chipping away half of it's health with each switch in, but is it really that hard to spin away stealth rocks with the likes of Hitmontop and Blastoise around? With the proper support (one layer of spikes, stealth rock, spinner), you almost can't stop Moltres. Revenge killing it is also extremely hard thanks to its above average defenses. Anything slower and not immediately KOd will have a hard time actually killing it, since chipping away at it isn't enough with Roost at its disposal. All in all, Moltres is too powerful for UU and has the bulk and typing to back it up.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
​

Raikou under the OC

"A Pokémon is BL if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort." to be clear

Raikou's most deadly set, in my opinion, is the Life Orb set since it has more immediate power then the SubCM set.

Raikou @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 HP/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Thunderbolt
- Extrasensory
- Hidden Power [Water]
- Calm Mind

This set, with just one layer of spikes and stealth rock down, can easily sweep. Raikou has base 115 special attack and 115 speed, both are incredibly good. His speed beats all but Sceptile, Dugtrio, Swellow, and Alakazam. Sceptile and Dugtrio can eat a Thunderbolt. Dugtrio is one of the best checks to raikou, being able to come in on half of it's moveset and ohko it, and take a hefty hit from Extrasensory to kill it. Some of his defensive checks include Chansey, Registeel, and possibly specially defensive Regirock. Chansey is obviously a hard counter, however like I said in my Moltres nomination, it only fits on stall. Registeel takes a low estimate of 30% from Thunderbolt, and adding that to the 18% from spikes and 6% from leftovers, you end up with 42% taken. Next time you can Calm Mind, dealing 45% you will just KO it. Even if you choose to Thunderbolt and swap again, Registeel has no heailng at all. This is also assuming Careful 252 / 252 Registeel. The same happens with Regirock, except much easier since it's neutral to stealth rock and has far worse special defense.

So defensive checks are pretty much out of the question. What offensive checks are there! Checks include Sceptile and Dugtrio. Revenge killers include Alakazam and Swellow (with orb). Opposing Raikou can also do an okay job against it, but it often comes down to a speed tie for the Extrasensory kill. Sceptile can come in on most of it's moveset, synthesis up as it switches, fearing Earthquake, or just EArthquake straight away and risk the ko next time Raikou comes in. It's a shaky check, but definitely the sturdiest offensive one. Dugtrio is one of those things where it's kind of a check, kind of a revenge killer. On one hand, Raikou can't OHKO it without HP Watering straight off the bat. Hp Water is saved for special threats, so it can usually get in while sustaining 65% ish max without spikes from the Extrasensory. We can call Dugtrio a check. So we end up with two offensive checks and one defensive counter.

Now, the problem lies in getting a Calm Mind to actually sweep. The problem is that Raikou can do it so easily. 90 / 100 defenses on the special side mean that all of those special attackers (Milotic, Moltres, Rotom, Blastoise, etc) mean that Raikou should be getting a free Calm Mind. 90 / 75 on the physical side is pretty bad, but it's not so bad that it can't take a weak physical attack or possibly stomach some priority to get through and sweep. So many porkermon in UU are also forced out by the threat of swift death via Thunderbolt or a coverage move, again allowing a free calm mind. Once it gets a calm mind, good luck stopping it without using one of the three pokemon listen or ridiculous amounts of priority. If you actually want to beat raikou without sacrificing a pokemon, then you have to use Sceptile, Dugtrio, or priority that can OHKO it before it can retaliate. Raikou is the most difficult to beat and broken pokemon in uu; in any half intelligent player's hands, it is broken. tl;dr good bulk amazing speed amazing stab amazing power

Cool Bad Ass, so if it is just that good then why didn't we vote it BL in the previous two rounds it was nominated as UU? Well, two rounds ago we still had Honchkrow to revenge, and UU players finally got some new toys to play with, Rhyperior and Alakazam, as well as the more anticipated Gallade and Froslass. Raikou was simply overshadowed. Last round, we got two of the most hyped pokemon to enter UU in Cresselia and Porygon-z. Cresselia was pretty much seen as the better Calm Minder, and Porygon-z could revenge a nice chunk of it's health with Scarf Tri Attack. People were way more concerned about Cresselia to worry about Raikou, and thus when voting time came they were thinking GET OUT DUCK. They forgot about doggie. So yea, that's why I think it wasn't voted out earlier

okay done

 

[Fuzznip]

Hello. This is my first time participating in UU Suspect. I would like to nominate the following Pokemon: Raikou and Froslass.

Raikou

I am nominating Raikou under the Offensive characteristic.

Offensive Characteristic

A Pokémon is BL if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

I don't see how Raikou does not fit under this category. Through my experience in the Raikou-infested metagame, I believe that it has the power and sweeping ability to pose as an immediate threat upon entry. There are two specific Raikou sets that I believe are what make Raikou incredibly dangerous: Substitute + Calm Mind and Calm Mind + 3 Attacks.

In common battle conditions, I've found out that many Raikou are able to set up Substitute and/or Calm Mind with little trouble and hit the switch-in accordingly for a great deal of damage. Raikou doesn't have many hard counters in the UU metagame, perhaps you can narrow it down to Registeel, Chansey, and possibly Umbreon. Firstly, all of these threats are susceptible to Spikes, and Spikes is definitely not hard to set up in this metagame. Secondly, Registeel and Chansey are easy bait for Dugtrio, who can easily eliminate these two from Raikou's sight, and can even take care of a weakened Umbreon. With the removal of the top Raikou switch-ins, it will have a significantly easier time sweeping. Also, it's not like Toxic Spikes are used a lot to make Raikou less threatening, as Rapid Spin users and Venusaur are literally everywhere.

The power Raikou packs is unbearable in my opinion. Base 115 Special Attack and base 115 Speed really helps Raikou when it comes to sweeping. Throw in Calm Mind and excellent coverage moves, and you get one heck of a sweeper. Because of Raikou's power and lack of hard counters, teams are forced to use Pokemon that can actually deal with Raikou. Offensive teams need to use Pokemon like Curse Umbreon or Choice Scarfers to be able to threaten Raikou, otherwise they can be swept with ease. Raikou is just too strong for this metagame, and I believe it needs to be tested for removal.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Froslass

I am nominating Froslass under the Support characteristic.

Froslass is arguably the most successful Spikes user in the metagame, and there is no doubt about it. It has every necessity a Spikes user needs; Taunt, high Speed, Destiny Bond, Ghost-type, Pain Split, Substitute, etc. Even though Froslass is generally frail, that does not stop it from laying down multiple entry hazards whatsoever. Through its high Speed, it can outpace a lot of the leads out there, meaning that it's guaranteed to lay down at least two layers of Spikes. Once Froslass is ready to die, it can easily use Destiny Bond to bring down the foe with it. If they refrain from attacking Froslass because of that, then they're just helping Froslass lay down more layers of Spikes.

It's ridiculous how easy it is to use Froslass and set up Spikes with it. It does its job perfectly well with little trouble, as the only leads that are actually able to threaten it would be faster Choice Scarfers with super effective moves, such as Moltres, or Pokemon that have priority/fast Speed and Pursuit, such as Hariyama, Spiritomb, and Ambipom. Also, Froslass makes a good Taunt user with that Speed, capable of stopping other leads from setting up their own entry hazards. Right when you see Froslass enter the match, you must react to it fast, or else you'll find yourself taking 25% damage every time you switch in. I can't stand how easy it is for it to spill out Spikes. It needs to be dealt with.

 

[Yuggles]

Nominating Raikou under the Offensive Characteristic, with this set in mind:

The 'SubCMKou'

Raikou @ Leftovers / Life Orb /
252 Speed, 224 SpAtk, 32 Sdef
Timid Nature (+Speed - Atk)
- Thunderbolt
- Calm Mind
- Substitiute / Extrasensory
- Hidden Power Grass / Ice / Water

We all know what the point of the set is, use Sub/T-bolt to scout your opponent's answer to you, then when you come back later, set up CM and sweep.

Obviously the set has a lot of options, and that's not even the whole extent of it, but right there is the standard you expect from Raikou. His versatility is the whole point of why he is broken, basically: when Raikou comes in, you find yourself possibly facing 6% healing per turn from lefties, or maybe its actually going to be getting a 30% power increase a la Life Orb. He might be attacking off the bat, choosing from a list of the following types: Electric, Psychic, Grass, Ice, Water. Or he could set up a CM to start sweeping your team, or to scout, he can use Substitute. His EV spread could be offensive or have more bulk.

So pretty much, when you see Raikou come in you have to take all of that into consideration. And due to his Base 115 Speed and excellent type coverage, he can threaten so many UU Pokemon right off the bat. This forces you to switch to a counter, unfortunately we now move onto another huge factor of why Raikou is broken: He can easily handle all of his checks and counters. Chansey and Registeel are the only Pokemon that can be considered true counters to Raikou, however both of them have severe flaws.

Registeel has no instant recovery, and takes 36% every time it switches into an unboosted Thunderbolt from Raikou. Furthermore, Registeel also has to take abuse from other mons as well (Venasaur, Milotic), meaning Registeel isn't lasting very long at all. Good luck if you need to stop Raikou lategame using Registeel (which is where the thunder cat thrives, due to fairly good defenses and huge Speed). Chansey has huge issues by the fact that a very large number of Pokemon can set up on it while it tries to stop Raikou. Pursuiters crush Chansey. Dugtrio beats it as well as Registeel, so all you really need to help Raikou sweep is Dugtrio + something to dent his counters...although Raikou himself does a good enough job of that already!

Raikou has a fair-sized check list as well, unfortunately, each Pokemon on the list falls to a certain Hidden Power type, or Extresensory.

Altaria - Ice
Claydol - any HP
Donphan - any HP
Dugtrio - any HP if it's taken a bit of Spikes/SR damage. Sub/Shuca berry blocks out EQ.
Lanturn - Grass
Ludicolo - Can't do anything to Raikou anyway....
Nidoqueen - Ice/Water
Regirock - Thunderbolt wears it down easily
Rhyperior - Grass/Water
Steelix - Water
Venasaur - Extrasensory, Ice

Yes, I'm aware that Raikou can't carry all Hidden Powers at once but it has the ability to use all of them. If your science test is going to have bio, chem, and physics on it, you don't prepare for just one or two of them. And therefore you have to somehow prepare for each hidden power type with Raikou?? That spells overcentralization if you need 2 mons to counter one, or if you need Chansey/Registeel to do it (and those two get crushed if you are smart and support Raikou a bit)

To wrap it all up, Raikou doesnt even need to take much of that post into consideration, since he can be put on almost any team and just brought out late-game to sweep. Raikou is probably the most fearsome Pokemon to face lategame, because his counter list is pathetic and his check list is easily beaten. And remember, he's outspeeding pretty much everything and can handle priority way better than most offensive Pokemon. Oh, and I didn't even go very in-depth to the fact that Raikou can use Shuca Berry/Magnet Rise to bypass its checks even easier!

As a final note, the only reason Raikou hasn't been voted BL before was because other suspects overshadowed it. Namely, Cresselia and Porygonz last round, and Honchkrow, Gallade, etc. before that one. Even though people are still trying to get rid of Froslass this round Raikou is such a ridiculous threat that people are finally working hard to get rid of it!

In summary:
- No good counters/checks
- Huge movepool
- Sets up easily
- Very versatile and unpredictable
- Should have been voted out 2 rounds ago

Raikou is BL.[/QUOTE]

 

[Leman]

I usually don't bother nominating, but I think its pretty necessary this time around. I don't want Raikou or Moltres to get Froslass-syndrome.


First up, Raikou:

Raikou @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 224 Spd/252 SAtk/32 SDef
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Thunderbolt
- Extrasensory / Shadow Ball / Substitute
- Hidden Power [Water] / Hidden Power [Grass] / Hidden Power [Ice] / Substitute
- Calm Mind

I'm going to be nominating Raikou under the Offensive Charicteristic. Since its been nominated a couple times already, I don't think I'm going to particularly focus on what makes Raikou so dangerous, since we all really know that. It hits incredibly hard, and its checks are all limited, and has the ability to set up on a good portion of the metagame. We all know that. Instead I'm going to focus on why Raikou is the culprit rather than Dugtrio, and what is different in this metagame, compared to the last one, and why Raikou deserves the boot now, even though he did not get one last time.

Raikou has about four real checks/counters in this metagame: Chansey, Dugtrio, Umbreon, and Registeel. Then there are the six move set-dependent checks: Venusaur, Claydol, Rhyperior, Torterra, Lanturn, and Steelix. I would just like to point out that Dugtrio only traps and beats three out of these ten checks. (Neither Steelix, nor Rhyperior are 2HKO'd by LO Earthquake, and they can both OHKO back) The rest of them, with the exception of other Dugtrio, beat Dugtrio. Furthermore, Dugtrio will often allow some other sweeper, like RPTorterra, or Swellow to come in and gain momentum for your opponent's team, making it significantly more difficult to set up Raikou. Raikou will usually have more success by keeping the opponent guessing as to which moves it carries.

This metagame is also a lot better for Raikou than the previous, because of two factors: less competition from Cresselia as a Calm Mind Sweeper, and bolstered usage of Moltres. Raikou no longer has to compete for a spot on team with Cresselia. Even though both play differently, Cresselia was the overall better user of Calm Mind. Most teams opted to use her instead of Raikou. Now, there is no competition in that spot. The Moltres usage has caused two things: increased usage of water types (most notably Milotic) and decreased usage of Grass types, and Registeel. Raikou now has more opportunities to set up on these Water types, and usage one of its best checks (Registeel) has decreased, giving Raikou an easier times to sweep teams. Raikou also happily shows up to revenge Moltres itself, providing it with another set up opportunity. So Raikou is still broken under the Offensive Characteristic.

And now Moltres. Im going to make this a lot more being and more of an overview of Moltres's selling points, since I'm fairly certain that it will be nominated anyways.

Moltres @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 HP/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Fire Blast
- Air Slash
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Roost

I'm going to nominate Moltres under the Offensive Characteristic.

First off I think I will just remind you that Moltres (and Magmortar, but its not very good) has the strongest unboosted Special Attack in UU. Moltres also wreaks havoc with its good 90 base speed stat and its fairly good typing (which only has one downfall. in the SR weak). when you stick all that together, Moltres comes out with three checks: Milotic, Azumarril, and Chansey. Everything else can't switch in many times (once at most), thanks to their lack of reliable recovery or Stealth Rock weakness. Spikes from Frosslass just make Moltres's job easier, since it can just run through teams without needing to switch out.

 

[Veritas]

Nominating Froslass, Dugtrio

Froslass - Support Characteristic

Froslass should be BL for two reasons;

1. It's cabable of setting at least one layer of spikes in nearly every battle situation, and more against the majority of the UU population. Froslass is the fastest spiker in UU, and OU. Froslass carries a respectable base 110 speed, and is the ~25th fastest pokemon in the game, and ~10th fastest pokemon in UU. Not only does it carry spikes, it also knows Taunt, Destiny Bond, and Pain Split. It can spam spikes until it's near death, then take the opponent down with destiny bond.

2. The second problem is that nearly every team is forced to adjust so that they can handle froslass accordingly. I know that if I don't have a foolproof way to deal with froslass fast, I am already put at a disadvantage.


Dugtrio - Support Characteristic

Dugtrio is by far, the best revenge killer in today's UU metagame. Not only can dugtrio switch in on and trap any grounded pokemon, he can also kill them with respectable attack, phenomenal speed, and great type coverage. Dugtrio can carry a combination of moves that hits 12/17 types Super effective;

EQ - electric, fire, rock, poison, steel
Stone Edge - bug, flying, fire, ice
Aerial Ace - bug, grass, fighting
Sucker Punch - psychic, ghost

Assuming types were dispersed evenly in UU (they aren't but you catch my drift), Dugtrio could hit 70% super effectively. So essentially, Dugtrio can switch in on a plethera of it's teams counters and pave way for a sweep by a deadly pokemon, like Raikou (who is rightfully UU imo)

 

[Flamewheeler]

Froslass goes by many names, but that is not important here…WHORE! Moving on…I would like to nominate her under the Support Characteristic for her ability to set-up and keep spikes on the field too easily. These are the sets I am referencing:

Froslass (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Snow Cloak
EVs: 248 HP/164 Def/96 Spd
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Ice Beam
- Pain Split

and

Froslass (F) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Snow Cloak
EVs: 4 Def/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Ice Beam
- Destiny Bond/Thunderbolt/Ice Shard

While her attacking stats are rather lackluster, her ability to “do her job” is second to none. Her unique typing (ghost-ice) allow her to allow her job to be completed without fail and hit every rapid spinner in the UU tier for super-effective damage, with the exception of hitmontop, unless she runs the highly uncommon psychic, but that’s beside the point. She has been nicknamed by many, “Whorelass”, and for good reason- she is on nearly every team, whether it be as a lead or mid-game supporter. Outside of her arguably outstanding typing, for a support pokemon anyway, her well above average speed gives her the upper hand on many common leads and pokemon in general that are a part of the UU tier. She is only outran by 5 pokemon in the entire tier and ties with no other!

To sum this up, froslass centralizes the lead metagame and indirectly, the rest of the metagame (people abuse her spikes with sweepers who dominate with all grounded taking 12-25% damage upon switch-in), she sets up too easily, and keeps spikes up too easily.


I may add some more later…

 

[Nas]

I'm nominating Froslass under the support characteristic for its ability to set up easy spikes. Froslass has many things going for it; most notably its speed and typing which together aid Froslass in setting up Spikes and keeping them on the field. With its high speed and access to moves such as Taunt and Pain Split Froslass has much more control over when Spikes go up, and how many layers go up. For example, an offensive team will often have the choice to sacrifice all or most of Froslass's HP in order to get an extra layer of Spikes when the same would not happen if the player was using the slower Omastar or Cloyster. Also, Froslass's typing makes it pretty obvious when the opponent is carrying a super effective move so it won't be surpised as easily as Omastar or Cloyster would be. Froslass's Ghost subtype also prevents pokemon from spinning away the spikes while she's setting them up, and with the bulky set she can even serve as a spinblocker to her own Spikes. With Pain Split, all moves that don't 2hko are turned into set up bait, and Taunt prevents set up and walls from statusing her while she sets up.

Once Froslass has set up Spikes, pokemon like Moltres, Raikou, and Swellow become incredibly dangerous, and since all their counters are grounded they have no trouble blasting them away. It's this, the immediate danger of Spikes, combined with the ease of which Froslass sets them up and keeps them on the field that makes froslass broken.

Also, I'm nominating Moltres under the offensive characteristic. (obviously the Life Orb set)

Moltres's insane Sp.Atk combined with stab Fire Blast and Air Slash make it incredibly hard to switch into. Most of the pokemon that resist one of its stabs are weak to the other and the ones that aren't, (mostly Rock types) are nailed for super effective damage by HP Grass. As it is, there's only two commonly used pokemon that can switch in safely; Milotic and Chansey. (Milotic can be 2hko'd by HP Grass with SR so only Chansey is a solid counter) The only thing keeping it from being completely broken is its 4x SR weakness, which doesn't bother it too much considering most Moltres players pack a Rapid Spinner on their teams, and Moltres can recover HP via Roost on a switch. Basically Moltres's High Sp.Atk/Spe + STAB Fire Blast & Air Slash = Broken

Yeah they were kind of short but they summed up the main points I think.

 

[Draco Zephyr]

The following set will be considered in the nomination:

Raikou@ Leftovers / Life Orb
Timid nature, 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
~ Substitute / Extrasensory
~ Calm Mind
~ Thunderbolt
~ Hidden Power [Water]

Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is BL if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

Needless to say, I'm nominating Raikou under the Offensive Characteristic. Raikou possesses an incredible base 115 / 115 Speed and Special Attack, outpacing the entire metagame save three Pokemon: Dugtrio, Sceptile, and Swellow. After a Calm Mind, only Dugtrio and Sceptile can risk a switch, both of whom can take a Thunderbolt. Dugtrio is the best "counter" to Raikou around, being immune to Thunderbolt and trapping it, allowing a KO with Earthquake. However, if Dugtrio switches into Hidden Power, or Sceptile into Extrasensory, the chances of preventing a Raikou sweep are extremely thin. These are the only offensively-oriented Pokemon who can hope to check Raikou.

Defensively, Raikou has only two solid counters: Registeel and Chansey. Assuming a single layer of Spikes and Stealth Rock, Registeel has a limited number of switch-ins, meaning that Raikou can simply switch out and wait for Registeel to get worn down. Chansey is the only Pokemon in the metagame that completely checks Raikou. However, if Raikou is running Substitute and Calm Mind simultaneously, it defeats Chansey and easily runs through any other Pokemon. Additionally, both the aforementioned counters can be dealt with by one of Raikou's teammates (read: Dugtrio). Dugtrio annihilates both Registeel and Chansey, leaving Raikou's path clear. The only other Pokemon who can hope to counter Raikou are overly specialized (meaning they were created just for the purpose of countering Raikou), such as specially defensive Venusaur with Earthquake (Raikou can still use Extrasensory, however). Even so, Subsitute Raikou wins against Venusaur. Overspecialized counters scream “broken.”

Unusually for an offensively oriented Pokemon, Raikou has solid defenses of 90 / 75 / 100, which means that it can definitely take a few hits. Priority attacks like Sucker Punch can hit Raikou hard, but, if behind a Substitute, Raikou will always prevail. Additionally, no prominent priority users can sufficiently check Raikou, as the common ones, such as Hitmontop, Absol, and Toxicroak, are all defeated easily. None of these Pokemon can risk switching into Raikou.

 

[Folgorio]

Ok im being forced against my will to nominate MOLTRES under the offensive characteristic.

Moltres's Life orb set is extremely powerful since it boasts a very high spA stat(125), a decent though not overwhelming base 90 speed, and a high powered stab move(fire blast) along with fantastic type coverage thanks to stab air slash+hp grass. The type coverage given with these moves in addition to the very powerful spA make switching into moltres ridiculously difficult. In fact there are only 3 pokemon who can actually reliably counter moltres( Milotic, chansey, and slowking). Even then however
none are too reliable since milotic can be 2hko'd with SR and/or spikes if it switches into hp grass and chansey/slowking aren't difficult at all to take out with other means (pursuit/duggy etc.).

The only reason thats its not BL by now is its very harmful SR weakness. Due to its typing it takes a very hefty 50% upon switching to stealth rock. Despite this, its typing also gives it a fantastic set of very valuable resistances(grass, fighting, ground etc.) and even if SR is up(which also isnt that hard to remove) moltres can also roost off the damage thanks to its terrific 90/90/85 defenses.

All in all I think moltres deserves to be BL because of the lack of safe switchins and its simple ability to sweep an extremely large portion of the pokemon in its tier without any set up whatsoever.